Scripture versus Personal Experience
I've another question for you dr. luginbill. I recently found out that a friend of mine has a rather unusual way of hearing from god. he explained that you imagine Jesus in your mind and you let him talk to you. that's the basic gist of it. He was also quick to say that whatever Jesus says to you will have to line up with the word, so I guess that's kind of his qualifier as to what he's hearing Jesus say to him.
I don't know of any scripture or principle that speaks against this, but my initial gut reaction to this is a negative one. I get the feeling that this isn't a smart or safe practice of hearing from god. my friend alluded to the practice having a more middle eastern feel and that this method seems very foreign to a westerner, which I was quick to agree on. I know this method won't work for me, since I have too much power to make Jesus say whatever I want to since it's in my mind, but it seems to work for him. is there any scripture or principle that would speak against this method?
I've never heard this one before, but I imagine we have all had the experience of thinking about God and then imagining He was saying something to us. As you very discerningly note, if and when we do anything of the sort it is really us doing the speaking, not God. Hearing from God directly would be great, and we would absolutely "have to do what He said" (of course we have His words written down and still don't do as well with these unmistakable communications from Him as we should not by a long shot).
In reality, of course, God is the One who determines how and when He communicates to us, and as it says in the book of Hebrews, "in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son", even though before the incarnation He had spoken to us via prophets "at many times and in various ways" (Heb.1:1-2 NIV). So it is Jesus who is the Message; and He is "the Word of God" (Rev.19:13). We now have the whole written word of Him who is the Living Word, and that is the place to which we are now to direct our attention, namely to the truth of the holy scriptures. And we can certainly do so, because not only do we all have Bibles, and not only is the Body equipped with teachers who can illuminate it for us, but we all also actually have the Holy Spirit indwelling us for illumination, and He is "the [very] Mind of Christ":
As you may know, I have my issues with dispensationalism as it is classically configured, not because of any animus on my part towards its practitioners, but because they have misunderstood. A dispensation, biblically speaking, is a dispensing of the truth, and the major differences from this point of view between dispensational regimes is the manner in which God has chosen to dispense His truth (please see the link: Dispensations). In the Church, following the era of the apostles, that method is the study and teaching of the Bible. It is not miraculous activity (see the link: Are miraculous gifts still functional today?). It certainly made sense for God to speak directly to, say, Enoch, before the Bible existed in any form. But if He really were communicating directly to believers in a verbal way today, wouldn't that undermine the authority of the Bible, and all pastor-teachers, and in fact everything anyone else might say or have said to us except this special person because after all the person with that special channel would be getting it directly from God. But the Lord has established His Church for a reason, and the mutual support we give each other for learning the truth is a very large part of what we are supposed to be about this service is a large part of the basis for our eternal rewards. If there were a direct channel, we wouldn't need each other much at all.
Still, if God were communicating directly, we would accept what He chose to do. But my point is that scripture, while not giving us a definitive and comprehensive list of negatives, that is, a complete list of all things that are not true (the Bible would have to be much larger than the Oxford English Dictionary to come close to heading off all the crazy things people come up with), it certainly gives us more than enough positive guidance to show us what is right so that we may easily deduce by comparison what may be wrong. Since, as I say, the whole tone and tenor of the New Testament and the whole structure of the Church is focused on doing things one particular way (granted very few are actually following that lead of putting the truth of the scriptures in first position), when someone tells me it's another way, it is up to them to show me from scripture that they are uniquely correct, not the other way around. And, in general, when it comes to all things miraculous, I tend to let sleeping dogs lie just as long as what is being reported is not clearly against the Bible. Example: "God told me not to sin" "OK, I get the same message from the Bible so I will not argue with you". Example: "God told me you must marry me" "Wait just a minute on that one while I check my Bible".
When Christians are not involved in a very focused approach to reading scripture, learning biblical truth, making applications of truth to their lives in pursuit of eternal reward, and preparing for and engaging in ministry to help others do likewise, they tend to stagnate and eventually always seem to drift off to something "interesting". Unfortunately, if it is something they or someone else has made up for personal entertainment or worse, if it is something that does not have a scriptural basis, and if it is something that may produce spiritual pitfalls, then trouble lies down that road. The best way to avoid pitfalls is to keep walking up the straight and narrow road. It is when we stop, sit down, get bored, and wander off that problems begin.
Going the right way means following Jesus, and the only sure way to do so is through the truth of His Word.
Yours in the One who has shown us the way to Zion, our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Thanks for the prompt reply. I do greatly appreciate you lending your intellectual ability to anyone with an email address.
I'm curious where the still, small voice would fit in to all this. I'm under the assumption that God talks to us with the still, small voice, that we can be led by that. assuming I'm correct in my understanding, and playing devil's advocate here, what's the difference between the still, small voice and listening to Jesus talking in your mind? Couldn't they potentially be the same? Does the still, small voice only quote scripture to us, or can we be told things other than what's found written in the bible? Doesn't god lead us or tell us to do things that aren't found in the bible? like, when God might warn someone of something, etc...?
The "small, still voice" is a quote from 1st Kings 19:12 and is rightly, in my view, applied to the communication and leadership of the Holy Spirit. Note that in that context, Elijah is not given to hear any precise "text" of information from the voice, but covers himself with his mantle and goes to stand at the entrance of the cave in response. Then he is spoken to directly by the Lord Himself in a voice that is neither small nor still nor difficult to interpret but loud and clear and unmistakable.
The Spirit guides us and teaches us but, clearly, not by communicating to us with audible words. The means the Spirit uses to guide us are 1) the truth of the Word resident in our hearts, heard, understood, and believed through His ministry (see the link: Epignosis, Christian Epistemology, and Spiritual Growth) and 2) our consciences (see the link: in BB 3B "The Conscience"):
An important point to add here in the guidance of the Spirit is that if our conscience is bothering us or we think it is our conscience but are not sure we can easily check scripture to see whether we are really in the wrong about something (in which case the pang we feel really are the Spirit prodding our conscience) or only having our guilt manipulated based on some detritus left in our hearts from our prior way of life (in which case it is the devil who is prodding us). The ministry of the Spirit is an involved topic (scheduled to be treated as the next installment of Bible Basics: i.e., Pneumatology). Suffice it to say from the above that all Christians are aware of God "speaking to them" in the sense of His "nudging" us us through our consciences which are responding to the truth. That is the Spirit's work. It is unmistakable, powerful, and miraculous . . . but it is not audible.
Until BB 5 is available, you may want to have a look at the following links:
Feel free to write me back about any of this.
Yours in our dear Lord Jesus Christ.
I never knew that God came out of fire before. When I was a teenager I went to a large Bon fire with a few girls. God came out of that large fire, his face was about 6 feet wide and his head was about 10 feet high, with long thick wavy hair. He spoke to me for a few minutes, that was 31 yrs ago. His eyes blinked, his mouth moved and he even had 2 eyelashes on each eye. His voice was so soft, yet commanding. I thought he was talking to someone else, until I looked around and the other 8 people were not looking at him, but chatting among themselves. I then realized it was me he was talking to and that noone else could hear or see him. How in the world do you tell people without them thinking you are crazy. Now, since I read about Moses and the burning bush about 6 weeks ago. I have so many questions.
I never read the bible before last year and I wished I had. I just learned of Moses and the burning bush and God speaking to him and all the other things God did with fire just recently. I told my regular preacher a couple of years ago. He did not mention to me that God had come out of fire before. I was very upset with him that he did not tell me when I told him about God coming out of the fire to me and I told him "you should have told me". Then, he said back to me that he and the congregation all think that Moses and I are both crazy...and laughed...and then made me laugh too, and I responded by saying, I bet you do, I bet you do!
What am I, is what I asked a different preacher last year when I went to see him, he had no response. He did tell me that my story is so believable, but when I asked him who else has God talked to besides Moses, and he said "only you", isn't that enough.
I cannot believe that Moses and I are the only ones that God has come out of fire and spoke to....if that is so, then what am I? I wish God would speak to me again to let me know what to do because I just can't believe that he came to me so many years ago, not to do something with me now, maybe I should have told everyone I could have the many years. A lot of people do not believe that he exists or there wouldn't be so much crime and men wouldn't sleep with men, and certainly ladies would not be killing their babies.
Good to make your acquaintance. Moses was given to hear the Lord speaking from out of the burning bush in Exodus chapter three. This was a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ (please see the link: in BB 1, "Appearances of Christ in the Old Testament"). There is also the case of Samson's parents where the Angel of the Lord is seen to ascend in the flame of the altar (Judg.13:20). Fire is a symbol of judgment, and in both of these appearances the coming sacrifice of our Lord Jesus being judged in the darkness for the sins of the world is in view. There are a number of other cases of Jesus appearing to Old Testament believers in His capacity of the Angel of the Lord (without fire), but none since His incarnation. Since Jesus took on true humanity, He has only appeared as the true human being He now is (as well as being divine, of course), albeit in resurrection:
In both of these instances, Jesus identifies Himself. And in Exodus chapter 3, the same is true:
It also seems to be the case that Moses apparently did not actually see the image of the Lord in the fire. The narrative suggests that the "appearance" (Ex.3:1) refers to the bush which burned and was not consumed, and of course the direct speaking of the Lord to Moses out of the bush. Moses was attracted to the wondrous sight, then "hid his face" so as not see anything more once the Lord revealed Himself. Nothing here says anything about the Lord's image being visible or about Him "coming out of the fire" (and the case of Judges 13 is much the same the speaking is apart from fire).
So I don't see these biblical parallels as being the same, and cannot see how it could be possible that Jesus could appear in this way since the resurrection (the Father has only appeared to living human beings to a handful of prophets who were in a prophetic state of ecstasy). That is because Jesus is the revealed Person of the Trinity (compare John 12:41 with Isaiah chapter 6), so that He would be the One appearing if God were to appear today. And since Jesus has been resurrected, He appears as He is (in real human form, in His genuine, resurrected body). Furthermore, since actually seeing Jesus in resurrection is a sign of apostleship (1Cor.9:1), and since the last apostle died ca. 68 A.D., I would be highly skeptical that Jesus has made any actual appearances here on earth since that time, or that He will until His return at the Second Advent (there is certainly nothing in the Bible to suggest it). Finally, it is also the case that in each of the examples cited above, the words of our Lord are incredibly significant and are stamped with the imprimatur of who He is. That is to say, in such instances, He tells the person in question with whom they are speaking.
I make it my practice not to pass judgment on other people's experiences. What God gives to each of privately is a private matter. My rule of thumb for myself personally is not to make an issue of anything I hear where the content "taught" agrees with scripture, and not to believe anything in cases where it does not. But I certainly would not worry about the problem of unbelief in this regard. Everyone knows God exists from observing life and the world He has made; it is just that most people come to deny that truth (and may even come to believe the lies they tell themselves in time; please see the link, BB 4B: Soteriology: "Natural Revelation"). Praise God that you believe, but there will always be disbelief until God's kingdom comes.
Yours in Jesus Christ our Lord, the Savior of all mankind, especially believers (1Tim.4:10).
Yes, I sometimes have a hard time wondering how all those believers believe like they do especially since they have not seen him. I believed alot before I saw him, I think he came to me because he felt he had to to keep me from praying 5 or 10 times a day to him. I used to talk to him every time I turned around, no matter what I was doing or where I was at. I am so thankful that he appeared before me..........................it has made me cry so much the last few weeks cause I have found out he has appared before several men several times in the Bible and that now makes me want to know everything in the Bible,
When I read that nonbelievers would perish, that got my heart, because I know that many millions will not make it to heaven because they do not believe...............rightly so, they have never read the Bible, but even if they did, how could you believe such stuff, fires, pillars of clouds, stuff from like the Harry Potter movies, which I have only seen the commercials of, but, I know it is hard to believe, and I never told anyone because it was hard for me to believe, but I heard his voice loud and clear and saw his face/head with long hair, very large, above the open fire. It was golden like the fire coals that were burning, but his face was not moving like the fire, it was a still image other than his eyes and mouth moving. I would like to tell you, and do not ignore what happened to me, because maybe one day you will hear another tell you the same story.
I am not sure why no one else has seen him in however many thousands of years besides me, maybe they have and there is no databank to put people like me in yet. Since he spoke to Moses thousands of years ago, but he did also speak to several others in the bible that I have read about online a few hours after writing you. Noah's ark was closed by God's hand, so the people watching said, in a part of a Bible I just read a section of.........so Moses is not the only one who heard his voice, I never knew Noah was part of the bible either.
Once I read about the burning bush, only after a guy who has read the bible told me that he has come out of fire before and I freaked out over the phone with him, I told him, no way, you got to be kidding, he has come out of fire in the Bible, and the guy told me yes, many times, then I knew that the Bible was 100% true or had to be, because if I saw God come out of fire and it is in the Bible.....then I felt much better. Knowing that what I saw is something that is so rare that hardly anyone could believe it, many yrs ago, then what does that tell you?
I would like to know, if there is a place in the Bible where maybe God tells of how many human years it takes to make 1 yr for him, or something about our time vs his. Since I saw him many yrs ago and no one else has, then I feel like maybe I am someone like Moses or Peter............Saturday morning I was riding and something came over me............I must tell everyone I can to save all the souls I can for God. If I do nothing with what happened to me, I feel like I will be condemned for not trying to make non-believers, believers...I am not worried about the ones who already believe, I want to save all the ones I can for God that do not believe. I never knew what my purpose on earth was, but now I feel a burning desire to make that my main mission.
I would like to talk to you face to face. I am not a crazy person, as I am sure Moses thought everyone would think he was too. If your daughter came up to you, if you have one, and told you "Dad, this is what happened to me" would you believe her?
Now that I have read and heard of other stories where God has spoken to others in the Bible and it was written about, especially so much stuff referencing fire, and I never knew God was the author of the Bible, otherwise I might have read it many years ago, but I am thankful now that I am learning all that I can, as it will help me, I believe when he comes, he will expect me to know everything in the Bible, as I read in there a couple months ago when I learned about Moses and God speaking to him, and when I read God saying that "ignorance" of him, will not be an excuse or tolerated.
Non-believers will not be allowed to enter into Heaven. I am here to help save as many people as I can. If there is anything I can do for you, please let me know. I only want to serve God now....I really don't even care about my profession anymore, though that is my job and I must do it to pay my bills, I would prefer to do something to save everyone that I possibly can before he does come back, and if he ever comes back to visit me and talk to me, I want to be able to transfer that message to someone who will believe that I am, in fact, telling the truth.
I would be open to hypnosis, lie detector tests, truth syrums or any other form of finding out exactly what else God said to me that maybe I did not even comprehend at the time. I just know he wanted me to 'go home' and I thought that was my parents house at the time.....but 2 people have told me there is a reference in the Bible about going home and I guess I need to get to that chapter to see if anything that he said about going home captures any memories of that one night long time ago.
I do not want to take up all your time, and I do not need drama in my life, but if you saw God last night or many yrs ago and one day for some reason it just came back into your memory on a daily basis, what would you do. That is all I think about day and night now, cause I feel that I need to do something with it...there is a purpose for me seeing him and him speaking to me, maybe it is because he knew one day I would talk alot and would tell everyone, since when he spoke to me way back when I was very shy and did not speak back, I was not much with words or talking way back when, I only nodded to his words as he spoke. I wish now that I would have asked him questions or spoke to him, but I think that was not supposed to be otherwise he would have gotten me to talk to him. I wasn't scared when I saw him. I was very much the submissive type person and did what I was told to do. I would do anything he asked of me, if he was to come back and ask me to do something, even if it meant the whole world would be talking about that "crazy" woman, cause one day, they would all have to answer to him, I do not want to judge anyone, I just feel like it part of my duty/mission now to try to save everyone I can for him.
I am a credentialed professional and I am not someone from off the streets, but even if I was, it wouldn't matter, he came to me for a reason and since he has not come to anyone else in thousands of years, was it for me to tell all those living people who have not died yet, to hopefully change their way of thinking. I want to save the non-believers, cause I feel that the more souls God gets, the less the Devil will have and I don't want anyone to suffer because they did not believe.
Thanks for responding. I am just thankful that he has risen back up from my long time memory to be #1 in my life, there's got to be a reason, I just know saving people who do not believe has got to be the reason why he came to see me. I would have been embarrassed to tell anyone about this years ago, but I am not ashamed of him, no matter what kinda looks I get from people when I tell them about God rising from the fire that night.
As I said, it is not my place to judge other people's experiences. I also would like to state emphatically, if it was not clear from my previous response (it would definitely be clear from reading the materials at Ichthys), that I have abundant faith in the power of God to do anything. Through Jesus Christ, He created the entire universe in the blink of an eye. And as fantastic as creation was, it was "an easy thing" compared to judging His own dear Son for us in the darkness of the cross. Jesus bore all of our sins on the cross. He died for them so that we might be saved through faith in Him and His sacrifice for us. That is the primary meaning of fire in scripture: judgment, and where the Lord is concerned, fire symbolizes the fire of the darkness where Jesus was put to death in dying spiritually for all our sins, purging them by His spiritual death for us in the flames of judgment.
That is also why I have a difficult time understanding the symbolism of your vision. On the one hand, Jesus is the revealed Person of the Trinity, and has now become a human being as well as God, has died for us, and has been resurrected. In my reading of scripture, both of what has happened and what according to scripture is possible, any appearance He might make (though, as I say, an actual appearance I find unlikely before the Second Advent) should be in His true human form, not in a form that approximates Old Testament, pre-incarnation, pre-ressurection Christophanies.
On the other hand, fire represents judgment. And a Christophany connected with fire (as at the burning bush, or the angel of the Lord appearing to Samson's parents, or His appearance to the three friends of Daniel in the fiery furnace) represents or, better, represented the sacrifice the Messiah was prophesied to make for the world in facing the fiery flames of judgment for all of our sins (see the link: "The Nature of the Penalty Christ Paid for our Sins"). Since that sacrifice has now, blessedly, become a historical reality, further such representations would seem to send the wrong message; they would seem to suggest that the Messiah has yet to pay for sin but Jesus did die for all sin already, once for all and once and for all. That is why, for example, Paul castigates the Jerusalem believers for their continuation of the burnt sacrifices of the temple worship, the offering consumed by fire which symbolized Christ's death for sin, because it was "crucifying the Son of God afresh" (Heb.6:6). Since we know that our present representations ought to reflect the new post-cross reality, it would seem doubly odd to me if God were to represent Himself or His Son in precisely the way we are told we ought not now to do.
As I say, I am not trying to tell you what you saw or heard or what to make of it. But since you ask me, if someone else or someone very close or trusted told me something that did not agree with the Bible, I would believe the Bible. And I dearly hope that if I saw or heard something, even something dramatically supernatural, which did not agree with the Bible, that I would believe the Bible over my own eyes and ears. Peter was given to see the Second Advent on the Mount of Transfiguration how dramatic that must have been! and it is certainly something he could rely upon as good and right and true in every detail since he was in the presence of Jesus Christ when he did. But what does he tell us? He says, that the "word of prophecy" we possess, that is, the holy scriptures that tell us about that future event, is "more sure" than what he, one of the greatest of the apostles saw and heard from God Himself in the presence of our Lord Jesus (2Pet.1:19)! What is true of Peter in such an indisputable situation is at least doubly true for believers today, even if the report they hear comes from a reliable source. Hence my policy to live and let live with anything claimed that agrees with the Bible and to believe the Bible over whatever is claimed in cases where it does not. Given the times in which we live, that is not only a spiritually sensible policy it may actually save our eternal lives:
This is a long way of saying that if God has given you an experience that encouraged you, that is for you and praise God for it. However, all true spiritual growth is built not upon experience but upon believing and applying the truth of the Word of God. No experience, however dramatic, can substitute for the process of spiritual growth to which all followers of Jesus Christ have been called, and any ministry designed to lead others to the truth must be founded upon and focused upon the same truth of the Word of God, and, in my view, exclusively so. So I commend your heart's desire to lead others to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, His unique Person, human and divine, and His work on the cross in purging our sins away in the fire of divine judgment. And I hope that you will find the materials at Ichthys of some use to you both in your own personal spiritual growth, and in the development of your ministry of personal evangelism (please see especially the links: Bible Basics 4A: Christology: the Biblical study of Jesus Christ; and Bible Basics 4B: Soteriology: the Biblical study of Salvation).
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Thank you for your reply. I did not ask him if he was God. I felt that might have been an insult, nonetheless I did not talk to him, I just listened and let him speak and I nodded my head. I have only read a few little pieces of the Bible, but just cause it is not in the Bible, does not mean it could not happen. I am not sure why people believe that God and Jesus are one and the same, as God let his son die on the cross and I did not know how that happened until I watched a video at church easter SUNDAY this year, it was horrific to watch, I could not believe they let children watch it too, however, I have not read anything in the revelation or resurrection (the last chapter of the bible) nor have I read alot about anything other than the first two chapters and the 4 John chapters near the end, but I am reading online this week and putting in key searches to find out what I can. I do not know what all is in the Bible, I am learning everyday, now that I have read about Moses and the burning bush a couple months ago.
I just know what I saw and I believe it to be God, as he surely did not look like the Devil or anything else. I told a family on the phone a couple hours ago, and I told him I know it sounds crazy, I don't know how many times, but I said "You know me well for many years now, and I know God exists." I asked God to take out my past exes and do something with them quickly through a massive heart attack, clicked my fingers, and 6 days later I got a text: died of a massive heart attack. Then 3 weeks later another one was murdered (mid April sometime). I have not heard of anything happening to the others yet to my knowledge.
I also had a microwave that several people could not get to work on any plugs in my kitchen (an electrician and plumber were here and so were other people and noone could get it to work). I asked God about a month ago to fix it for me, that I believed that he could fix it even though it was such a small minor non-meanial type request and I opened my eyes and plugged it in and it has worked every since. My best friend who is the plumber told me he'd get it out of my kitchen but hasn't done it in the last year, it's been an eye sore not working and several other people tried to get it to work. My plumber friend told me that only God could have turned that Microwave on and that I needed to tell everyone I know about it because no one could have turned it on but GOD, and he is also a Deacon at a local church. I have tried plugging that thing in and so have my assistants several times this past year with no luck. I told my assistant about it and she said, it certainly was "god": that thing was dead, no one but God could have turned it on. I told God I believed he could do anything, and that I believed he could also turn my microwave on, and I asked him to show me that he was still with me since I haven't seen him in many yrs. Now I know he is still where he can see me and hear me and I just have to be careful what I ask for cause now 2 requests the last 4 months have been honored,
I have finally gotten an answer from someone about how old Jesus was when he was crucified and I believe they told me he was 33 yrs old. I don't think everything that could have happened in the 33 yrs that Jesus was here on earth could have been put in the Bible, and some things can't be explained, but I am still searching for why he wanted me to go home and I looked up some of that on the web today too. I just want to know why he came to me and what it meant and what "home" was he referring to now that some people have told me there is talk about going home in the Bible and so I just need to keep searching and looking and talking to people and try to figure this out. I don't think God came to me just for me to be quiet, cause 3 doctors can't believe I am still alive from a heart condition that should have killed me 15 yrs ago...they said they are not sure why I am still walking around, and I told them, after walking around for 9 days after I left the hospital, I was wondering why as well. I was just dazed for months as to why I did not die. They said they've never seen anything like it before and the heart doctors I went to see wanted to use my heart transcripts for teachings and I told him "yes" he could. That doctor moved to here a few years back from reading the newspaper a few years ago, but I am sure the other 2 are still there.
I think I have a purpose, just don't know what it is yet, but I also read today online that only the pure of heart can see Jesus or God.....something like that, and I was very very pure of heart back then.... matthew quote I believe is what I read, maybe that is why those foreigners are still doing animal sacrifices, if that little kid who claims to have gone to Heaven and he saw God and he saw his son Jesus, then they are not really 1, but 2, they are individual people, if that is so, God can still come out of fire if he wants, so I would think, that is his way before, why would he change what he has always done? And no, I didn't know about all the fire things you referenced above, but you can believe I am going to click on them and read or watch them all very soon.
I need someone to talk to and ask questions to, but I don't want to worry or waste your time, cause time is valuable these days, but I find myself spending time on this, rather than doing more productive things.............and as of about 3 weeks ago when I read the 10 Commandments for the 1st time, I have not worked on Sundays, cause God wants us to only do holy things on Sunday and not work. I have worked Sundays for 11 yrs now, but not anymore. I have to try to respect his wishes.
I liked the saying you emailed me about how those who have never seen believe, yet I have believed way before I saw, but still would have believed, however, I never knew the Bible was about God or anything that happened about the past,....it is truly an amazing book and I can't wait till I have read it all.
Do you think a hypnotist could get me to remember exactly what God said. I am hoping one day that every word I heard will come back to me and then maybe it will click then, or maybe after I read the Bible it will click......there's got to be a reason he came to see me, it can't just end with that one night, and that is why I need to know more. I can't find anywhere online where anyone has actually seen him come out of fire, but I did read where some have seen silhouette of him sitting on the end of a bed and my good friend told me his friend who did not believe, said he saw Jesus when he was dying and told his wife, look, isn't he beautiful, Jesus is so beautiful, just before he closed his eyes and died. He did not believe before, but he told his best friend about what he has heard through the radio and things that have happened to him before and he said his best friend started believing in God, and he was so happy to hear his wife's friend say he got so happy just before he expired. I think there are alot of things not in the Bible, cause people don't open up about those things normally, thinking people will think they are weird, but I feel the more I talk to people, the more I will learn of something that may have happened in their life that they have never told anyone about............there should be a chat line about stuff like this or maybe an open church day for people to talk about things that have happened to them..yada yada yada...lol
Thank you so much for responding, even if you don't believe it could have happened like back in the Bible days, thank you anyway, as I know it has to sound unbelievable, but if you knew me, you would not question what I say. I told my plumber friend about the bon fire and God or maybe it was Jesus, how am I supposed to know, I think it was God, but before I ever read my first sentence out of the Bible I told him, and he had no response, but has helped me understand why those around me could not see or hear him by explaining those stories in the Bible to me that happened long time ago in the same way that I experienced it! I was totally shocked when he explained Saul's experience to me about a week ago, cause one morning last week I just kept saying, but how in the world did I see him and hear him and no one around me could...I just couldn't understand it.....it was like a lightning bolt had hit me.....when my friend told me it happened before in the Bible. No one but Saul could hear God speak when others were around him. I never thought I was crazy anyway, but now that it is quoted in the Bible of it happening so many times before I do know now, I am definitely not crazy at all, it has happened before and I am so thankful it has happened before and written about too. Cause how could you tell people and it have never happened before, how can someone phantom those stories in the Bible happening, it sounds so much like a science fiction movie, it is so wild, like Harry Potter's movies, but since it happened to me, I am going to help encourage everyone by telling them stories I read in the Bible as well as what has happened to me.
I hope that maybe you one day will experience it yourself so you will undoubtedly believe those who it has happened to as well, so far it is just me seeing God come out of fire in these days and times, but I feel if I keep looking and talking to people, maybe I will find more like me. If you ever hear of it happening to anyone else, please let me know.
I certainly would not presume to tell you what you did or did not see, and it is certainly not my place to suggest that you shouldn't do all you can to fulfill God's purpose for your life of course you should, and so should we all!
As I say, it is not for me to say what God has or has not done except for the guidance I can find in scripture. It is not for me to tell God what He may or may not do (God forbid!), or to suggest that He has or has not done something about which I have no independent knowledge.
All I know is what I read in the Bible. Like any other Christian, I would be absolutely thrilled to have some special miraculous gift or some special supernatural experience from the Lord. If I had such a gift, it would be my responsibility to use it for Jesus; if I had such an experience, there would no doubt be times when it was appropriate to share it with others. My concern as a shepherd is to keep the wolves who claim to have gifts they do not have and who claim to have seen things they have not seen away from the people they are trying to victimize. Even if I were a very shrewd judge of character, it would never be possible for me to discern with absolute precision 100% of the time who is right, who is wrong, and who is in-between. Anyone can wrongly think an honest person is fibbing, and anyone can be duped. That is why I stick with what I find in the Bible.
I think your approach of making personal Bible study a top priority in your life is really the best advice I would have been able to give. This ministry is dedicated to helping Christians who want to learn about the Word of God and grow closer to Jesus through the truth of the Bible do so: at some point, we all need a teacher (even teachers do, at least before they get to the point of being able to teach others effectively and feed themselves from the Word). I welcome you to any and all of the materials at Ichthys, and encourage you to find just the right place to be fed spiritually in any case, even if this ministry turns out not to be your particular "cup of tea".
Here is a link that addresses some of these issues in what I hope will be a helpful way:
Yours in Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,
I'm not sure if you received the proper image of the cross visible in laminins, as a few of my friends did not receive it. So I will send it again. I hope you do not mind me sending this message.
A friend sent me this today, and I want to share it with you - if you haven't already seen it. It's quite amazing, and another confirmation of God's hand in creation.
A couple of days ago I was running (I use that term very loosely) on my treadmill, watching a DVD sermon by Louie Giglio... And I was BLOWN AWAY! I want to share what I learned... but I fear not being able to convey it as well as I want. I will share anyway.
He (Louie) was talking about how inconceivably BIG our God is... How He spoke the universe into being.... Then He went on to speak of how this universe creating God ALSO knitted our human bodies together with amazing detail and wonder. At this point I am LOVING it (fascinating from a medical standpoint, you know.)... And I was remembering how I was constantly amazed during medical school as I learned more and more about God's handiwork. I remember so many times thinking.. 'How can ANYONE deny that a Creator did all of this???'
Louie went on to talk about how we can trust that the God who created all this, also has the power to hold it all together when things seem to be falling apart..how our loving Creator is also our sustainer.
And then I lost my breath. And it wasn't because I was running my treadmill, either!!! It was because he started talking about laminin. I knew about laminin. Here is how Wikipedia describes them: 'LAMININS are a family of proteins that are an integral part of the structural scaffolding of basement membranes in almost every animal tissue.' You seee.... Laminins are what hold us together.. LITERALLY. They are cell adhesion molecules. They are what holds one cell of our bodies to the next cell. Without them, we would literally fall apart. And I knew all this already. But what I didn't know is what they LOOKED LIKE.
But now I do. And I have thought about it a thousand times since (already).. Here is what the structure of laminin looks like...AND THIS IS NOT a 'Christian portrayal' of it!! If you look up laminin in any scientific/medical piece of literature, this is what you will see...
Now tell me that our God is not the coolest!!! Amazing. The glue that holds us together..... ALL of us.... Is in the shape of the cross. Immediately Colossians 1:15-17 comes to mind.
'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in Him all things HOLD TOGETHER.' (Colossians 1:15-17)
Call me crazy. I just think that is very, very, very cool. Thousands of years before the world knew anything about laminin, Paul penned those words. And now we see that from a very LITERAL standpoint, we are held together... One cell to another... By the cross. You would never in a quadrillion years convince me that is anything other than the mark of a Creator who knew EXACTLY what laminin 'glue' would look from the very beginning!
What an amazing God...what an awesome God...and we are made in his image...now I understand.
Good to hear from you again.
The picture did not come through (that is pretty common when forwarding emails generally one has to download images to one's own computer then plug them into a new email for this to work).
On the image of God, however, while I certainly agree that the God has stamped creation with the undeniable message of His existence and His character (see the link: Natural Revelation), the image of God per se consists in our moral ability to choose; that is what is makes us essentially different from all of God's other creatures (not anything in our appearance, obvious or microscopic). Please see the following links:
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Thank you for sending me the three links. Please understand that I am fully aware that we are set apart from other creatures by God with as you put it our moral ability to choose.
I have a simple Faith, a simple love for God and what Jesus did for us. Nothing will ever or could ever take that from me. I have unshakable trust that God will always guide me into all things good, and he does. Sometimes I become intrigued when I see something like the Laminins, but I am not about to build the foundation of my faith based on it as this is just the body the shell and the incredible workings inside us that God created for us to function, it just fascinates me how each cell is glued by a cross. But it is the Spirit inside us that is of most importance, especially when we read the Bible. My spiritual armour is not going to take a dent because of it, I feel very assured and strong in my Faith. This is not to say that I am not constantly challenged because of my Faith by the evil forces.
But I have to say that sadly there are people out there that do need proof that the Bible is true and need consistent evidence of existence of God, that Jesus is the Son of God, Noah's Ark etc. I do know ex-atheists and have heard of other ex-atheist who trying to disprove God became believers because of the extensive research they did finding scientific evidence to back up the Bible. Although we may say this is a sad way for them to become believers having to believe by evidence and not faith, I can assure you that they have unwavering Faith in Jesus now even though each one was truly tested by Satan in various ways. So we must remember that Gods ways are not our ways and how He eventually brings people to Him is only understood by Him, He knows what He is doing and how to deal with each person individually, and it is not our place to judge others, only God knows each persons heart. It is the same with what each Christian takes from the Bible, some believe in the Gap Theory, pre-Adamite some don't, some believe in eternal security others don't, some believe in the Rapture others do not, some believe in full immersion Baptism some do not etc. But if you have been faithful to Jesus and know that he is the only way to the Father and have followed him and have done what he has said then I'm sure We will be welcome. No one person can get the full Bible right.
The important thing is if a person has to eventually say Yes I believe God exists, that the flood really happened etc just because of evidence first and they then repent and except Jesus in their hearts as their only way to the Father that he died for us all, and they become much more spiritual and trust in the word of God completely instead of science or artifacts etc Then it is much more positive then having people turn to this new age Universalism that has even a huge percentage of Christians actually believing that all good people go to heaven, that it does not matter what religion you are if you believe in God and you have been a good person all your life you can go to heaven you don't need Jesus. How can some Christians believe this, why then did Jesus have to die for us all then. This is the beginning of the Apostate Christian I am sure, we are most definitely racing to the finish line.
Anyway thank you once again for the links, oh and Happy New Year I hope to one day shake your hand in Heaven and Thank you in person for your enlightening e-mails, and for the wonderful site you have for everyone to read.
In Jesus I Believe
Thank you for taking the time to write this great response. I hope you know that I have no doubts about your personal faith or about your dedication to Jesus Christ both are very obvious from everything you say. I also do not have a problem when people are brought to the Lord by whatever means; I rejoice in their salvation. Jesus said, "Whoever is not against us is for us" (Mk.9:40), speaking of those who were not truly part of "the program" but were being used in God's plan to accomplish some positive things, and Paul's remarks are similar:
So this is a valid perspective: we are all imperfect so that imperfect means ought to be tolerated in our quest for the greater Christian good. However, it is also true that we Christians are called to the highest standard. While we are not perfect, that is our goal and our "job description". For Jesus also said "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters" (Matt.12:30 NIV), and Paul also said, "But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you" (Gal.2:5 NASB). We all have our gifts, all of which are meant to serve the truth. My personal "job description" is to put the truth of the Word of God in first place. For that reason, whenever I am confronted with anything that is even a little bit "off", even though it might be mostly "right on", my duty is to (pedantically) point out the blemishes in the hope of purifying the whole (or at least improving it). That doesn't mean that I am perfect (although that is the objective for us all) or that I know everything about the Bible (although has certainly been my life-long ambition), but it does mean that the truth is the great touchstone which divides all things in this life. So while I can rejoice in the rightness of something that is "generally right", I am still eager and zealous for the leaven to be removed that the lump might be pure. I believe that this is duty of all pastors and all Christian teachers and also why, by the way, that we incur "a stricter standard", as James says, because it would be the height of hypocrisy to complain about a speck in someone else's eye when there is a log in our own (and none of us, after all, will ever achieve perfection in this area).
Orientation is very important, moreover, and if we were to adopt a standard of toleration without pushing for improvement the very next moment we would be sent hurtling backwards. I certainly agree that there are many brothers and sisters out there who have different opinions on many of these doctrines you list, and that most of them will indeed make it safe to heaven-home even so. However, I know to the depth of my being that it is the truth, the actual truth of God's scriptures, fully understood, believed and applied, that sustains believers in the trials of life. Nothing else will do it. That means that everything we get right and believe will do us a world of good (even if it may seem a small and insignificant point at the time), while everything we get wrong (or fail to believe if it is right) will be useless to us and may very well even harm our spirituality. This may seem arbitrary in the abstract, but in truth God never lets it be so. For all those who thirst for the truth, the truth is made available. It might not fall off a tree into our laps, we might have to search for it a long while, it might be hard work learning it, and it might be difficult to accept or somewhat displeasing to the ear compared with other things (as in the case of this ministry for many), but if we want it, God will provide it.
Take the false doctrine of eternal security, for one quick example. I realize that many of my Christian brothers and sisters hold to one version of this or another, even though it is my firm belief that not only is it incorrect but it is also very obviously so for anyone who seriously and honestly goes to the scriptures to investigate it. Now these folks who believe it are no doubt "saved" and may be wonderful Christians. I like to think that I was not a "zero" when I believed it (having been taught it very emphatically in my youth). However, I certainly am aware that discarding this false doctrine was a turning point in my own spiritual development and walk with the Lord.
So from scripture and from personal experience, a tolerant attitude towards this misguided teaching seems to me to be a misapplication of Christian love. If you love someone truly, you tell them the truth in a loving way, not giving them more than they can take until they can take more but in my view it is certainly not loving to deny someone the truth or let some continue to believe a myth that is hampering their spiritual growth, costing them eternal rewards, and negatively affecting their relationship with Jesus Christ. More than that, it is also the case that the truth protects us while the lie endangers us. That is true of all points of scripture great and small; only the degree of damage is at issue. For obvious false doctrines like "eternal security", the damage can be great.
We find ourselves on the doorstep of the Tribulation wherein, during the Great Apostasy, fully one third of actual Christians are prophesied to fall away from the faith and lose their salvation. More likely than not, the more lukewarm, more unprepared spiritually, and those weighed down by all manner of false doctrines will be the most vulnerable and the most likely to fall. It is certainly true that crises sometimes bring out the best in people, but starting with a huge spiritual disadvantage such as believing "eternal security" will not be a plus. After all, if one believes that they are "saved no matter what", then the necessity of living a good Christian life even during the persecutions of the Tribulation may not seem to be of absolute importance; rationalization will come easy to those who feel "safe whatever they do". "Why not take the mark of the beast and avoid the trouble?", they may rationalize, "since I'll be saved no matter what and I don't really mean it I'll cross my fingers", and "in that way I can help my brothers and sisters in Christ from the inside". One could go on at great length and apply this same test to all sorts of wrong-headed, non-scriptural ideas, but I think a person only need look at the Roman Catholic church to see what de-emphasizing the truth of scripture for the sake of the organization will mean in the long run: the death of all truth and the complete spiritual death of all who go down that false road.
Yours in the One who is the truth, our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Rest assured I do not believe in Eternal Security, there is so much proof in the Bible that would indicate otherwise, and I think it a dangerous assumption. I also do not believe in a Rapture, you only have to read what Peter says to understand that. We are to walk like Jesus in everything including to suffer like Him, especially when we become more and more Spiritual. But off course others do believe. What we do know as Christians with different Ideas about Doctrine and at different levels of Spiritual maturity is that God foreknew us all and He Has brought us to Him. He is continuously shaping, moulding and chastising us, He always has the best plans for us although we may not understand that at the time, He Knows what we are and are not capable of, His intentions are the best (don't forget He guided me to your site). Every morning the first thing I do is Thank my Father in Heaven for letting me know Him, and for the Gift of His Son. But it is heart wrenching when good people we love and know will not except Him at all regardless of what we say.
Thanks Robert, again
In Jesus I Trust
I'm glad you found this site too!
In Jesus our dear Lord,
The Christian ministry believes that Rev chpt 4 refers to "The Father", and yet, Rev 4:11 clearly states that He who sits on the throne, created all things, and it was for His pleasure that all things were created. This 'parallel's other N/T scripture, that refers to "The Son".
The scripture tells us, that no man has ever seen "The Father" or "God", but also tells us, that man has seen Christ sitting on the right hand of God. We know that The Son is part of The Godhead, along with His Father and The Holy Ghost.
If The Father is The Almighty God, and The Son is The LORD God Almighty, then would it not stand to reason, that The Son, is in fact "two separate figures"? The Son was originally begotten of The Father, without a mother. Jesus stated that He was looking forward to returning to the glory that He had, "before the world was". Man was created by The Son, so Jesus cannot be referring to His 'position' of resurrected Son of Man. Does it not make sense, that The Son has in fact 'added' a second figure (combination of Son plus 'woman') when He took on flesh? Has He not added a human soul to Himself, who originally had no human soul? Is Christ, as Lamb of God, not the sacrifice for mankind, only, so that mankind can become "equal unto the angels"? No where in scripture, do I find Christ's sacrifice, connected to the "saving of angels".
If I am to understand the scriptures in a way, that does not 'break other scriptures' (and we know that the scriptures cannot be broken), then there has to be "four figures",.....not "three".
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated by me. Thank you.
Good to make your acquaintance. It is certainly true that Jesus is unique. It says quite a lot about the love of God and the importance of saved humanity to Him that God in the Person of Jesus Christ has taken on true humanity and cast His lot with us. This is an irreversible and imponderable sacrifice only exceeded by the death He died in the darkness for our sin that we might be forgiven and saved.
The traditional, orthodox position on this (and one which in my view correctly reflects and accounts for all that scripture says) is that the Son possesses since the incarnation two natures, one divine and one human, but is still one Person, albeit unique in His special addition of true humanity to His undiminished deity. Therefore the Trinity still accurately reflects everything the Bible says about Jesus in His pre-incarnate deity and in His humanity since the virgin birth. In no instance do I find Jesus' deity at odds with or acting independent of His humanity (on the special circumstances of the first advent please see the link: "The Hypostatic Union and Kenosis" in BB 4A). Further, I find the picture given of Him and the Father throughout the book of Revelation to be entirely consistent with this view (the Lamb is a symbolic representation of the Son since He acted as our sin-bearer substitute on the cross).
You can find out more about all these issues in part 1 of Bible Basics: Theology, and, as far as Revelation is concerned, in the Coming Tribulation series (which contains a verse by verse exegesis of the book of Revelation; see the links).
Apologies in advance if I have misconstrued or otherwise failed to answer your question adequately. Please feel free to write me back again.
In Jesus our dear Lord, true human being and genuine God in one unique Person forever.
Hello Robert. Thank you for your response. I did not reveal to you, what I experienced. I had to know your thoughts on this topic, before telling you the following;
1) I became a Christian as a young adult after reading through the KJV Bible. I attended church alone since that age (I am near retirement age now).
2) I faithfully attended church for many years, but ceased to do so, when the pastor told me that I should also seek information/understanding from 'other' 'bibles'. I refused. Something/someone was telling me that this was wrong/evil.
3) For over 10 years, I prayed several times per day, for wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and experience, that I may understand God's Word correctly.
4) Several years ago I experienced the following;
a) I went to a boat landing area with another person (separate vehicles). I told this person that we should pray to God out loud, to seek an answer from God, concerning a certain 'topic'. I prayed out loud, but the other person did not. We left the area in our own vehicles.
b) As I was about to cross an intersection with my vehicle, after the traffic lights changed, a voice came out of nowhere, and answered my prayer. It was as if the 'person' was sitting beside me.
c) About a month or so later, after I had allowed two missionaries from the LDS into my home, and then attended their church, I was thinking about their belief, that we were in heaven before coming to earth, when all of a sudden, I was in a vision. I re-lived my carnal birth.
d) About a month later (after the first vision), I had a second vision. This time, I was totally aware of my surroundings, but could see nothing, other than the vision. The room where I was completely filled with pure white clouds. A channel opened up in the clouds, going from me, upwards, to it seemed, forever. I was made aware, that The Father and The Holy Ghost were at the end of this channel, though I was not permitted to see them. I was in constant prayer throughout this vision. It was the most holy prayer that I ever prayed. I was taken back to the beginning of mankind, and shown the 'sins of the world' (mine included). I was in tears, and prayed for forgiveness of my sins, and those of the rest of mankind. Two 'identical' figures dressed in pure white robes, appeared, standing in the clouds, on the right side of the channel (my right, looking up). I recognized Christ, right away, but was confused by the figure on whose right, He stood.
e) A day or so after the second vision, I had a dream, that was in 'riddles' from start to finish. A 'man' in the dream, told me that there was 'something broken' and asked if I knew of someone that could fix it. I offered to 'fix it', because he had told me that I could have as much of the treasures that I had 'found' in the dream, as I wanted. These treasures, as I was shown later, were the promises contained in the Word of God. This 'man' (I never once looked into his face), asked me if I could handle it (referring to fixing that which was/is broken). I answered, "Yes." I was then awakened, and using my thoughts, told to write the dream down. It took approximately six and a half years for God to 'interpret' the riddles in the dream. God made me think of Numbers 12:6. I prayed constantly, as I was 'being led around ' in the Bible. He made 'missing' verses appear, and then disappear again. The dream contained a great deal of information. I searched the scriptures, researched via the internet (Protestant Reformation, historical battles, monarchies, etc., etc.), personally spoke with many local minsters here in Canada, and corresponded with many other ministers of various 'one-god' faiths via emails. I attended several different churches, and listened to various ministers on t.v. I was shocked at the errors that are being taught to congregations.
In summary, I was taught the following;
1) The KJV Bible is the only true Word of God. All others, are based on ministers' vanity. God made me think of the deaths of Aaron's two sons, when they added incense to an offering, without approval from God.
2) The book of Revelation, is The Son (The Word) reconciling His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom unto The Father. Remember the scripture, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
3) The second figure in the second vision, is The Son, as The Lord God Almighty. We have to remember, Jesus stating, "My Father (The Lord God Almighty) and I (Christ), are one. As The Lord God Almighty, this statement is also true. The Father and The Son, are also 'one God'. Isaiah 44:6 only refers to two figures, because The Holy Ghost, proceedeth from The Father.
4) The mention in the scriptures, of seeing Christ sitting on the right hand of God, refers to Christ sitting on the right hand of The Lord God Almighty (The Son/Word/Lord of Hosts). The only time, that The Father took over 'running' creation, was when The Son was on earth, as Son of Man. The O/T refers to The Son (part of God) 'managing' mankind, under the 'influence' of The Holy Ghost and The Father.
5) Christ was 'below the angels', the same as we are. The Son (Lord of Hosts/Lord God Almighty/The Word), is Christ's 'Father in Heaven', as much as He is our father in heaven. Only The Son (as part of God) can approach The Father.
6) When Jesus spoke (N/T scriptures), He often spoke as 'Christ' (Son of Man) and also, at times, spoke as The Lord God Almighty. The Son is of course, both 'figures'.
All that I have written above, is what God, Himself, has taught me. I have found no person that believes me. I have been banned from some 'forums'. God keeps reminding me....., "DO YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN HANDLE IT?" I thought that my teaching by God, would never end. One day, however, I was 'forced' to 'open my Bible'. It opened at Luke 10:14. I read verses 14 through 24. A strange feeling came over me, and I instantly knew, that my being taught by God, was completed. He then made me think of Solomon, and why he was 'rewarded' by God. Solomon feared God, and wanted to lead the Israelites correctly. He went directly to God for direction (wisdom). Unknowingly, I had done the same.
As part of the dream, God has told me, that ANYTHING that I want to know, concerning the scriptures, I simply have to pray for it. This includes 'lost' scriptures. There is so much that I have been taught, but I lack an audience. The blind, wish to continue, in darkness. I have been shown by God, that I am in fact, an Israelite, even though my father was Norwegian, and my mother was Scotch. The throne of England (and several other European countries) is an Israelite throne. The Protestant Reformation was the beginning of the 'grafting back in' of the Israelites. God made me think of the holocaust, and the N/T scripture, "There are those that say they are jews, but are not." Could the holocaust actually be Israelites (Germans) exterminating non-Israelites? A rabbi that I corresponded with, believes that most 'jews' have lost their 'chosen' status, through improper marriages. Could this be true??? Why is it, that most of the 'jews' today, have not become Christians? Think about this.
I write these things (above), out of love for all people. I pray, that you will understand the truth of what I have written. Take care, and may God bless you, and your works.
In Christ's name,
As I have often had occasion to remark in responding to emails, far be it from me to pass judgment on another person's experience. Happily, the Church is not in a position of having to do so, for we have the entire revelation God meant for His Church to have in the complete canon of the Word of God.
I will address your summary points in brief. In many respects, I find them contradictory to the Word of God. There are a number of possible reasons for this, but I will stick with two possibilities here: 1) perhaps I am mis-interpreting the Word I do not think so, but I am willing to be corrected from scripture; 2) perhaps there is mis-interpretation on your part. As I say, I do not wish to tell other people what they can and cannot have seen or heard, so I will stick with scripture.
1) The KJV is a translation that was produced in the 16th century by non-inspired human beings (mostly Anglican church-men and academics from Oxford and Cambridge). It is not a bad translation, but it is far from perfect for a number of reasons. For one thing, the better Greek manuscripts of the New Testament had not yet come to light so that some of the mistakes made in that version are based on the use of inferior texts (there is much to say about the Textus Receptus the KJV translators all used, a secular version that is flawed in a number of respects). For another thing, the KJV is a carefully "politically correct" translation designed to offend as few people as possible; as a result, it is often ambiguous in meaning in such a general way that it is possible to mis-read into its English text things any Greek reader would know are impossible. Finally, it is a translation, and all translations of any literature in any language taken from another language are, ipso facto, not "perfect", if only because they have to be different from the original. So to the extent that your point of view rests on the KJV being inspired, to that extent I would have my natural skepticism about other people's dreams and visions confirmed.
2) I don't see any major problem with this. The name of the book actually included in the text (many of the other book names are traditional only) really is "the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev.1:1). So we have it from the text itself that this book has as its theme the unveiling of Jesus to the world at His second advent and all the necessary events that must first take place (the seven historical eras of the Church found in chapters 2-3 and all the events of the Tribulation which precede His return in chapter 19).
3) I'm still not clear what you mean by this. Jesus is God and also man (since the incarnation). It is certainly true that Jesus is the revealed Person of the Godhead, and that means that He is frequently acting for the Father, often appearing as if He were the Father when He acts in the Father's stead as He regularly does, being the One who carries out the Plan of God (compare John 12:41 with Isaiah 6:1-13). I do not find any of the more confusing distinctions made in your emails (confusing to me, anyway) anywhere in the Bible (happy to chat about specifics on this).
4) Jesus' deity has always been the same. He was God before time-space existed and cannot not exist as God both within and outside of the physical universe. There is no indication in scripture for any diminishing of His role as "the Father's Right Hand", even during the incarnation. The "problem" of how His humanity and deity interacted is explained by the doctrine of kenosis (please see link): Jesus had to live a genuine human life without being insulated from suffering by His deity in order for His sacrifice to be acceptable (otherwise we could not have been saved by His death on our behalf; see the link: the Spiritual Death of Christ).
5) Jesus became a genuine human being at His virgin birth. Thanks to His victory on the cross which was only possible by virtue of His taking on true humanity in this way, we believers do now have access to the Father (Eph.2:18; 3:12; Heb.4:16). Herein is where I am most disturbed by your comments. Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ alone, that is, by being born again into a living, vibrant relationship with the Lord who bought us when we believe in Him. I am always skeptical of presentations which 1) fail to emphasize the work of Jesus in dying for our sins or 2) confuse the issues of either His person or His work. I am sorry to say that in the case of your emails I fear I find both problems (increasing my skepticism).
6) When Jesus uses the phrase "Son of Man", He is emphasizing His humanity (while "Son of God" emphasizes His deity). He is One Person so that I would not see any such divisions as seem to be inherent in your description.
Finally, the notion that gentiles are really Jews is a complete fiction. Not only is it contrary to everything the Bible actually says but it also will not pass muster if subjected to the simplest of historical tests. Please note that all those who "say they are Jews but are not" are deemed by scripture not to be Jews not the other way around. The Bible doesn't mention "those who say they are not Jews but really are"; it only speaks of individuals and groups who falsely lay claim to the name "Jew" but are really only acting in a deceitful manner (and are not really Jews). To my view, this reverse idea of what the Bible actually teaches describes British-Israelism very well (whatever the current iteration of it may be). Please see the following links on this point:
Whatever the Lord may have told you, I am quite certain that it would have been consistent with the truth of scripture. I cannot see how that can be the case in regard to the above, so I would ask you to reevaluate your interpretation of these matters.
Offered in Christian love in the Name of the One who died for all of our sins and wiped them away with His blood, our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Hi Robert. I thank you for your email responses. I enjoy reading and debating them. I will be answering all of your 'concerns' as time permits. I would really appreciate your opinion on the following;
I realize that I am greatly influenced by what I experienced. I would appreciate it if you ignored all that I have written about previously (for the moment), and concentrate on 'The Son'. Let us look at the following KJV Bible scriptures, listed below;
1) Ephesians 4:6..."One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
2) Revelation 1:6...[Jesus Christ]..."And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;..."
3) Acts 4:26..."The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ."
4) Acts 2:36... Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
5) The Lord's Prayer:... "Our Father who art in heaven...thy kingdom come..."
6) 1 Timothy 2:1... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
7) 2 Timothy 4:1... "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"
8) Matthew 22:44..."The LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool."
9) Colossians 1:12-22... [There is too much to write here]
10) 1 Peter 3:22...[Jesus Christ]..."Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
11) Hebrews 2:8-9...[There is too much to write here]
If we take into account the above verses, and add Isaiah 44:6, and Rev chpt 4 and 5, and Rev 21:22, we have a problem. Since no man has ever seen 'GOD'/'THE FATHER', John could not have seen him either (Revelation). Even Isaiah feared for his life, when he saw the Lord of Hosts, believing that he would be put to death.
In the second vision that I experienced, I was not allowed to see The Father or The Holy Ghost, and yet Christ and a second 'identical' figure appeared on the right side of the channel going upward from me, through the clouds. Christ stood on the right hand of this second figure. THERE HAS TO BE FOUR FIGURES! The Son must have returned to His glory (as part of The Godhead) and also is THE LAMB, a resurrected human being (Son of Man). Without changing scripture, nothing else makes sense. I do not believe, that The Son must now be 'locked into' the figure of THE LAMB, only. We are told by scripture, that as the Son of Man, He is 'below the angels'. There had to be a separation between The Son being part of The Godhead (without mother), and being The Lamb (with mother), when He ascended up to heaven.
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I need some further explanation. I am very familiar with all of these verses you list, and have absolutely no problem reconciling them with my understanding of the Person of Jesus Christ as presented to you previously so I will move on to your two interpretive paragraphs in reverse order.
In your second interpretative paragraph the "problems" seem to come from your vision, not from scripture (so I will pass over this too as it is only the Bible which concerns me).
In your first interpretative paragraph, you seem to contradict what you yourself claim. As an example, we could easily substitute your name for John's name. If John could not have been given to see the Father, then I do not see how any lesser person could do so (no offense, but there are only 12 apostles of the Lamb, and you and I are not among that august number). I have no problem distinguishing between a vision in a prophetic state (John mentions on several occasions that He was "in the Spirit") and seeing the Father "in our [present] flesh". The latter is presently impossible, but the day will come when we Christians will indeed find ourselves in interim bodies or, for those blessed to abide here until the Lord's return, directly as we receive our resurrection bodies. Then we will "see face to face" and "know even as we are known" (1Cor.13:12).
I look forward to that wonderful day very much, and am quite confident that the picture we are given in scripture of fellowship with the Father and the Son empowered by the Spirit is the very one we will experience at the future time (when in resurrection we have the capacity and ability to experience it).
In Jesus' love,
Hi Robert. Thank you for your response. I laughed when I got your response. I also went through the same logistical nightmare after receiving the second vision and dream. I listed every N/T scripture referring to God/The Father/The Son/Christ/etc. I also listed Isaiah 44:6 with the others. I finally went to God in prayer & anger, when I realized, that the scriptures actually contradicted themselves. This was due to Rev chpt 4 & 5, versus the other N/T scriptures (The Son having created all things and it was for His pleasure, that all things were created, and The Son must reconcile His kingdom before submitting Himself and His kingdom unto the Father). God kept bringing me back to the second vision. I then realized, that I had already been given the answer. The answer was the second identical figure to Christ, that I saw in the vision, that Christ was standing to the right of.
I had been taught the common Christian belief of 'The Trinity'. I was not about to let anyone 'fool' with this belief. Rev chpt 4 & 5, are the only places in the whole Bible, that provide the wisdom to understand the 'Godhead/Christ' 'picture'. Both chapters, are referring to 'The Son', but in His two different 'jobs/capacities'. When I realized this, the 'contradictions' disappeared. Everything, now made sense. I did not have to change any part of the scriptures, to make it fit the 'Godhead/Christ' 'picture'. I did not have to assume that 'something was in the spirit' and other things were 'carnal/physical'. The scriptures mean exactly what they say. There are four figures, two of which, are The Son. The Son is also The Word. One figure, is 'The Word as God' and the other, is 'The Word in the flesh...resurrected'.
In the current Christian belief, The Son remains as simply the resurrected Son of Man (lower than the angels at birth, but equal unto the angels at death...the same as the rest of mankind, except that He now has been annointed above all the rest of the angels and mankind). He has not been returned to being part of The Godhead. Rev chpt 4, puts the Son back in His position of glory, that He had before the world was. After the book of Revelation, the Son will submit Himself and His kingdom, unto The Father.
In the current Christian belief, Rev chpt 4 is interpreted as being The Father. The other N/T scripture tells us, that this is The Son.
This is as much as I can explain. I have no other information, nor do I need any. I have visually seen the proof in my second vision, and, by properly interpreting Rev chpt 4 & 5, and matching it to the other N/T scripture, I now understand the Godhead/Christ, better. I have not changed one single word of scripture. It is the Christian ministry, that is changing the Word of God;... not I.
By using the true understanding of the scripture above, the following scriptures make more sense;
1) My father and I are one.
2) If you see me, you see The Father (our Father in heaven...The Son as God).
3) The Lord's Prayer (It is The Son's kingdom that is coming.).
4) No man has ever seen 'The Father'/'GOD'.
I would really appreciate your thoughts in regards to the above. I know that what I have written is true. I have not changed any scripture, and the scriptures make a lot more sense.
In Christ's name.
No nightmare here. I have read and exegeted all these scriptures many times from the original Greek and Hebrew. They cause no trouble or problems for me whatsoever. I have read Revelation chapters 4-5 in Greek many times, and have exegeted, translated, and explained these chapters in great detail as part of the Coming Tribulation series (see part 2B: The Heavenly Prelude). I have never seen "four figures" nor any detail that was not consistent with the orthodox teachings about our Lord Jesus Christ who, since His virgin birth, is both God and man in one unique Person forever not two persons (see the link: in BB 4A "The Person of Jesus Christ").
The Person on the throne in Revelation chapter 4 has to be the Father because the Son comes before Him in the figure of the Lamb. Father and Son share the throne (Ps.110). This is very simple and straightforward in Revelation and elsewhere in scripture where the subject is treated.
I think it is possible that you must be reacting to some sort of false teaching and projecting incorrect doctrine on all Christians when you say "In the current Christian belief, The Son remains as simply the resurrected Son of Man (lower than the angels at birth, but equal unto the angels at death...the same as the rest of mankind, except that He now has been annointed above all the rest of the angels and mankind). He has not been returned to being part of The Godhead". That most certainly does not represent my beliefs at all, nor the beliefs of those with whom I share the fellowship of the Word. Jesus has always been enthroned in our hearts and in His deity, and He now shares the throne of the Father in His humanity as well, waiting for the time close at hand when "I (the Father) will make your enemies the footstool of your feet" (Ps.110:1).
We Christians have always believed in and vigorously proclaimed the deity of Christ and do not need "four figures" to do so. Please see the links:
My apologies in advance if somehow I have misconstrued anything here, but the Person of Christ is a most blessed and most important doctrine. Perhaps you are not "fooling" with the teaching of the Trinity, but words are very important and "four figures" bothers me immensely. When during the Christological controversies of the early church the debate raged over whether the Son was "the same in essence" or "similar in essence" to the Father, the emperor Constantine remarked that there was "only an iota's worth of difference" between the two positions (the first position being homousia or "same essence", the second homoiousia or "similar essence"). But striking out that little iota meant striking out a heresy that would have destroyed the faith of any and all who embraced it because it would have made the Person of Christ less in essence than the Person of the Father (and to be saved, one has to believe in Jesus, who He really is and what He has really done for us).
There are only three, not four, and the three are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Written in the love and faith of Jesus Christ,
Hi Robert. Thank you for your response.
I am totally confused. John 1:10 states,"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." Multiple N/T scriptures also state that it was The Son that created all things, and it was for His pleasure that all things were created. It also states that The Son must reconcile His kingdom before submitting His kingdom and Himself unto The Father. Revelation 4:1 duplicates this same scripture in terms of 'creation' and 'pleasure'. Are you telling me, that all of this scripture is wrong? If this is what you believe, tell me what you believe all of this scripture really should say, in english. There are many different 'bibles'. Do they also have different interpretations of these same relevant scriptures? God is not the master of confusion. By believing that you have come up with the one and only correct translation, then you are saying, that for the last 400 years or so, God has allowed mankind to be in darkness, until you arrived on the scene. Are you 'anointed'?
If you note, the Word of God came by way of the anointed Israelites. God anointed specific Israelites to bring us His Word. He called them 'gods'. Are you one of these special people? Are you telling me, that God needs you to 're-interpret' the original Latin/Greek/Hebrew scriptures, because God, Himself, did not 'edit' the KJV Bible that He allowed people to believe was true, for 400 years? I do not believe this. The Word of God, is 'The Standard' by which we are going to be measured against. If the written Word was translated improperly, then all who have followed this written word, would be able to use this as an excuse on judgement day..., would they not? Also, would the Holy Ghost even be associated with 'word' that was not true? Would God 'bring this word back to remembrance'? If not, then what word would He bring back to remembrance?
God takes the 'least' [in men's eyes] and makes them the greatest [in His own eyes]. He chose very 'spiritually simple' people to bring us His Word, thus not affiliating this gift with any 'minister/teacher/academic' of any specific 'church'. If He had, this person would have become 'high-headed', and all would assume that this specific person's beliefs/works, were holy and righteous. Only The Son is the perfect Word of God.
You are using the same argument that muslims use...."Mankind has changed/(misinterptreted?) God's Word". If I believe what every Christian 'bible' and 'man-made literature' states, then I would have to agree with the muslims..., would I not?
I will not deviate from the KJV Bible. This means, that Rev chpt 4, refers to The Son. In fact, it is The Son that has constantly communicated with mankind since Adam & Eve. The only time that The Father (Almighty God) really 'took charge', was when the Son became flesh, and resided on earth. The Father's will is known by The Son, so that all works carried out by The Son, are always righteous. The Holy Ghost/Spirit has always guided Him.
Ministers/academics have gone too far. They are trying to 're-invent' the wheel, because it is they, themselves, that are in darkness (blind). They have assumed their own 'wisdom' through their own vanity, instead of seeking true wisdom from God. Many have become the 'scribes & Pharisees' of old. God speaks to us, and directs us, in our own language. It is not necessary to learn Greek/Latin/Hebrew/etc. I was amazed at all of the 'useless garbage' that is being taught at the university level, in order for a person to become 'ordained by man'. God chooses His own 'teachers', as much as He chooses His own 'saints/prophets/disciples/apostles'. He also provides special gifts to some. We are told to discuss what we are taught individually, by God, amongst ourselves, in church. When was the last time that you saw ANY minister listen to these 'revelations/understandings'? They already 'know it all', and their response is, "How dare you question my faith/teachings/doctrines/practices/etc.?...I am an ordained minister!" Yes, they are ordained ministers, but it is too bad, that so many are also very blind, and only like to hear the sound of their own voices.
I realize that what I have written above, sounds very negative. We are in a 'fight' for our spiritual lives, here on earth. I do not take anything for granted, including what others tell me. I match everything to the Word of God, as I find it written in the KJV Bible. Nothing is written in this Bible, that commands me to seek an understanding from an additional set of 'bibles', or literature. If I am in doubt, I pray to God, for answers. He has never let me down.
In Christ's name,
I agree in essence with most of what you say here apart from your insistence upon an exclusive use of the KJV. There were many versions available before it, many more after it, and no version is as good as the original Greek and Hebrew (Latin versions are all translations too). That is a discussion I am happy to have with you at length, but I will pass over it here since it has nothing to do with the real point at issue. I have no major issues with the KJV's translation of Revelation chapter four. As with all the other versions and in the original Greek the KJV does not identify the Person seated on the throne as the Son. Moreover, as with all of the other versions, it accurately translates chapter 5 verse seven when the Lamb, the Son, comes before the One seated on the throne, the Father: "And he came and took the [scroll] our of the right hand of him who sat upon the throne".
As best as I can understand your position, it seems to be that because chapter 4 verse eleven says "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they were created", and because scripture elsewhere identifies Jesus in His deity as the Agent of creation, that for this reason the figure on the throne in Revelation 4 must be in your view the Son, not the Father. That is, however, not necessarily the case. In human affairs, both the author of something and the agent of something may be said to be that thing's originator. How much more is that not the case for the Author and the Agent of creation, especially since the Trinity are "One" in purpose in a sense beyond our comprehension? In speaking of himself and Apollos, Paul says "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1Cor.3:8 KJV). If being "one" means unity of purpose so as to give both equal claim to the result in human circumstances, then surely it is true when the subjects are coequal and co-eternal members of the Trinity.
Jesus makes the above statement in the context of explaining why His Jewish contemporaries do not believe even though "The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me," (Jn.10:25 KJV). Please note. As the Agent, Jesus acts in the Father's Name. This surely does not mean that the Father has no right to be praised for creation (Rev.4:11) because the Son carried out His plan. That would be like saying that a commanding general cannot be praised for a great victory because his soldiers actually carried out his plan. That makes no logical sense, no linguistic sense, and it certainly makes no theological sense.
The problem you find in Revelation chapter four does not exist, but over-focusing on such "discrepancies" which are actually only apparent can do great damage. After all, it was a very similar sort of disagreement that led to the rift between the Western and Eastern churches over the so-called filioque clause (adopted by Rome into the Nicene Creed in the early 11th century). John 14:26 says that the Father will send the Spirit "in my name"; but in John 15:26 Jesus says of the Spirit "whom I will send unto you from the Father". When one takes into account that the Father and the Son are "one", however, then it is easy to understand Jesus alternatively describing the Spirit's procession as from the Father and from Himself. In terms of the Plan of God and God's actions in this world, there is no daylight between the two. That goes for creation as well.
Here are some links on the KJV:
Yours in the Lord Jesus,
Thank you for your response. I understand the Christian ministry belief in The Trinity & The Godhead, and I held this same belief myself, until I experienced the two visions and the dream. If you look closely, the scriptures have to be broken in order to 'maintain' this belief. It is written, that no man has seen The Father/Almighty God, at ANY time. Man has seen Christ sitting on the right hand of God. The Son created all things, and it was for His pleasure, that all things were created. The SON has to reconcile His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom unto The Father. The Lord's Prayer tells us, ..."thy kingdom come." The Christian ministry is ASSUMING that it is The Father sitting on the throne in Rev chpt 4. My second vision, and the other N/T scripture, refutes this belief. It is 'The Word of God' (the Son) that is reconciling His kingdom in Revelation. The Son is 'The Lord God Almighty'. The Father is 'The Almighty God'. Rev 11:15 refers to The Son. Only The Son can see the Father. The Son is 'OUR' Father in heaven. We become part of The Son's kingdom, before He submits His kingdom unto The Father.
I want you to also compare what is written in the KJV Bible versus the NIV study bible, in regards to the following verses;
Numbers 12:6...the KJV Bible is 'singular' (vision and dream). The NIV changes this to 'plural'. Rev 13:10...the KJV Bible offers wisdom. The NIV changes this verse to 'a nothing'...what ever will be, will be. 1 John 5:7 has been deleted from the NIV study bible. Some minsters told me, that this verse was never in the scriptures, originally. Others told me, that this verse was 'redundant'. What if God, Himself, wants this verse in the scriptures (I believe that He does.)?
What do you make of John 14:21-23? The second vision and dream that I had, not only satisfies Numbers 12:6, but John 14:21-23, also. Is God telling me something? You cannot use the concordance in the NIV study bible in order to find John 14:21-23, if all you can remember (as was my case) is the word, 'manifest'. I remembered this word from when I originally read through the bible, at the early age of 9 or 10. I tried to find this scripture using the NIV study bible, and could not do so. The Word had been changed. This is what God has been teaching me. He also reminded me of what happened to Aaron's two sons, in Leviticus. By creating all of these different bibles that we find today, the ministry is confusing The Lord's SHEEP, and driving them away. The scripture warns us of driving His sheep away. It does not seem to worry the ministry. Multiple 'bibles/literature' that are different from each other in interpretation, is like speaking in different 'languages'. You lose your audience. They become confused, and do not know what to believe...hence,...a divided 'CHURCH'.
Another interesting area, is that of 'wiping your feet, and walking away'...when people refuse to believe. It seems that our evangelists keep trying to bring these same people to God. It also seems, that the farther away that they send their donations, the more 'godly' is their works. They ignore the 'poor' Christian (beggar) on the street, that is their neighbour. They also forget that the N/T scripture has apostles refusing to go to areas where some other 'teacher' has gone, so they do not take credit for another man's work. I remember the BGEA sending approximately 60 ministers to those that were affected by Katrina. The scriptures tell us, that faith without works, is of no value. They should have used the money to help clothe/feed/rescue those who were in dire straights. Anyone reading the scriptures on their own, along with prayer for wisdom, knowledge and understanding, is often better off than becoming taught by the 'blind'.
I realize, that what I have written above, is 'MY OWN' interpretation. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
In Christ's name,
On the KJV, I believe you have my other links which expand the argument I made to you earlier (and to which you have not responded). Numbers 12:6 actually says mar'ah, not "vision", and chalom, not "dream". Of course that is Hebrew, and many people who are unable to read Hebrew want the Bible in English. How one translates from one language into another is an art form, not a science. When I say "vision" or "ecstasy" or "appearance" or "sign" "or "revelation" or "spectacle", well, those would all be possible translations of mar'ah, but they are English words, none of which means precisely the same thing as the Hebrew, none of which has exactly the same flavor or sound or texture or tone or precise connotations. That would be impossible because we are talking about two different languages. Translations are always inexact because they are translations. The question is, "are they good"? In this instance, NIV is better than KJV. It is true that the Hebrew is singular, but consider: does/did God speak to prophets in only one dream? Does/did He reveal things to them in only one vision? In fact, in all the cases of biblical prophets I can think of, the context if not the precise text of their experiences suggests multiple contacts with the Lord. KJV is not wrong, because the Hebrew is meant as a general statement. "I speak to him in a vision" = "I speak to him in visions". These are two English ways of representing the same thing, namely, a general statement. The former is now a bit archaic (KJV); the latter communicates better what the text actually means in contemporary English (NIV); but both mean the same thing. Add to this the fact that the verse in Numbers is in poetic format so that we have a figure of speech to contend with here as well (the so-called "poetic singular" where things more often plural in prose are rendered in the singular in poetry for poetic effect). Finally, the Hebrew actually says "in the vision" and "in the dream". Now these are what are called "generic" definite articles, so that the KJV is not wrong to say "a" instead of "the". If one goes the KJV route, that is preferable, it is just not "literal" either ("the" in both cases is what the text actually says).
As to 1st John 5:7, the verse is not in the original Greek according to the best manuscripts but was inserted on the basis of Roman catholic tradition and the text of the Vulgate. The KJV is not alone in continuing to print known interpolations from later centuries which are not part of the Word of God (please see the link: "Famous Interpolations in the Bible").
As to the rest of your email, it seems we have covered most of this ground before:
1) The Trinity. The Trinity is the truth: God is three in Person, one in essence. I have written much on this topic and invite you to read the following links:
As I mentioned several times, I would not find anyone's vision evidence sufficient to convince me that everything the Bible says so clearly on an important topic such as this is untrue.
In the absence of scriptural evidence to the contrary, we will have to disagree about this.
2) The Invisibility of the Father. The fact that the Father is invisible to physical human eyes does not mean that He has not revealed Himself in visions. I shared this with you before but you seem to have rejected it out of hand. That is unfortunate, since it is the solution to the dilemma with which you are struggling. Nothing in the scriptures which discusses this subject rule out the Father revealing Himself in a dream or a vision and still maintaining the posture of invisibility to mortal human beings. Not only do the angels see His face (Matt.18:10), but in Revelation six and seven we see the departed saints in His presence as well (as all Christians shall be for all eternity: Rev.22:4). It is only in our present corrupt bodies that we are prevented from seeing Him physically. As John was "in the Spirit" when He saw the Father, there is no problem in fact.
3) The creation of the universe by the Son. I have already explained how the Father planned it and the Son carried out so that both can and are described as the Creator (please see previous emails). This also seems to have been dismissed by you without evidence or argument.
4) The Kingdom. There is a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven/God and the Kingdom of the Father. For example, the parable of the wheat and the tares, the kingdom of the Son in Matt.13:41 is specifically distinguished from the "the Kingdom of their Father" in verse 43. The former is the Millennial Kingdom of Christ; the latter is the Eternal State of New Jerusalem. The two overlap in many ways, but in the Lord's prayer believers are looking forward to the commencement of eternity, not to what for us is the interlude of the Millennium
5) "The Lord God Almighty" versus 'The Almighty God". Scripture will not bear this distinction you are attempting to construct here in making the former title refer to the Father only and the latter to the Son only. Both Father and Son are "Lord", "God", and "Almighty". Context has to show us to whom the particular scripture is referring. For example, "Alpha and Omega" is used in Revelation to refer to either the Father (Rev.1:8; 21:6) or the Son (Rev.22:13). Revelation 11:15 does refer to the Son's Millennial Kingdom, but is often mistranslated. In case that is part of the confusion, here is a corrected translation. However, note well that "our Lord" here is the Father since "His Christ" is the Son:
6) Manifest. This is an English word. NIV has "I will show myself to him" instead of KJV's "will manifest myself to him". Both are perfectly good translations of the Greek emphanizo from the root phan/phen (meaning to be apparent as opposed to being invisible) from which get a number of words in English (e.g., phenomenon = "something which has appeared"). The only difference I can see for English readers is the danger of assuming something "more" than is there because of the (now) uncommon nature of the verb "manifest". For the vast majority of Christians over the centuries, this "manifestation" of God has happened through the truth of the gospel, both at its initial reception and in its continued acceptance in the process of spiritual growth. If one wants to know the Lord and draw closer to Him, that can only be done through the truth of scripture, properly understood and thoroughly believed.
7) Problems with "other peoples' ministries". Were I to wish to expatiate on this subject, I would have plenty to say. However, it is certainly the case that on the one hand we are here to "stick to our own knitting" and do what is plainly our job rather than becoming excessively focused upon the failings of others (cf. Matt.7:3ff.); and on the other hand all the failings of others will not excuse the slightest mistake in approach on our parts.
Without passing judgment on your vision, it seems to me that in the interpretation of these matters you have been led astray by some serious misconceptions about what the Bible actually says. To the extent that this is a result of a mistaken appreciation of what English translations are and what they can and cannot demonstrate, well, that is a very common mistake. However, now that I have shared some of the facts with you, I would encourage you not to persevere in this incorrect approach. I have spent over three decades of dedicated study in the original languages and exegesis of scripture and have earned both the requisite degrees and professional standing pertaining thereto. I am sure that you would find it ridiculous if I began to lecture you about the ins and outs of your profession. One hopes that if I had an issue with that area, I would find someone who had some serious knowledge and experience on the subject. In a similar way, God has mixed spiritual gifts into the Body of His Son so that every need for spiritual growth might be fulfilled. That is a short way of saying that the argument that the KJV has to be "inspired" or else "no one would know what was true" is terribly wrong, because it is essentially trying to obviate the need both for the gifts of teaching and for the serious preparation and study that need to accompany them. As a professional yourself, I would hope that you could appreciate this point.
In any case, I pray for your spiritual advance, edification and salvation. May the God of truth lead you into all truth in all things.
In Jesus our Dear Lord,
Hi Robert. Thank you for your response. If you note, I have not changed one word in the KJV Bible. I have made no assumptions. Everything I have written, is in the Bible. THERE ARE FOUR FIGURES...NOT THREE. The Father (The Almighty God), The Holy Spirit/Ghost (proceedeth from The Father), The Son (before all creation...part of The Godhead...The Creator), and The Son as Son of Man (The redemption).
I refuse to 'read other literature', so I guess, I will just go my own way. I have experienced, what I have experienced. I see a lot of 'vanity' in the Christian ministry. My wisdom does not come from them. Take care, and I again thank you for your interest and responses.
In Christ's name,
You are very welcome. Even reading only the King James, I see no evidence for "four figures" from scripture. I think it is fair to say that no one else besides yourself in the roughly two millennia since the New Testament was first written has seen these "four figures". That would make your interpretation completely unique in all of Christendom for all time. It is true that this does not necessarily make you wrong; it does, however, place a special burden on you to answer pointed questions and criticisms about your theory, especially when you go to the trouble of seeking out such input. This you have not adequately done in respect to my last email at least (and on several points in regard to prior emails as well).
You certainly have a right to "go your own way". We all answer to the Lord Jesus for what we choose to do in this life.
Best wishes for coming to the truth.
In Jesus our dear Lord,
Hi Robert. Thank you for your email. I just wanted you to know, that I have spoken with many different ministers of various Christian churches. A local pastor told me that there are in fact many others that also believe that there are in fact 'four figures'.
There is no cross-reference in the scriptures, that allow us to assume that it is The Father in Rev chpt 4. In fact, we only have the 'created all things, and for His pleasure all things were created', to go by. Since this exact same wording is used in other N/T scripture in order to explain that The Son created all things, why would anyone think that this now applies to The Father? I know what you wrote previously to me, but it is all 'assumptions', used to try to explain the common Christian belief in the 'Trinity'.
The dream that I had, ended with 'a man' telling me that there was something broken. He asked me if I knew of someone that could 'fix it'. Since I was in a 'dream', I thought that perhaps this person was talking about a fence, etc. Since this man had told me that I could have as much of the treasures that I had 'found', I told Him that I would 'fix it'. He asked me if I thought that I could 'handle it'. I told him, "Yes." He then gave me the answer to what I had been searching in the scriptures for, but the answer was beyond what I expected. He changed no word, but gave me an extremely 'deep' understanding of the N/T scripture that he referenced. He also told me, that no man has ever been given the wisdom to understand the full meaning of the pertinent scripture. The full meaning, is one of the ways in which God keeps the righteous/godly, righteous/godly, until the end. I am afraid to reveal any of this wisdom. It would have the same impact that 'divorce' had. People would use this wisdom for evil purposes. It is extremely powerful. Again, not one word of scripture was changed. The 'treasures' that I mention above, are the scriptures, which encompass the promises made by God. There is 'missing Word', that was given unto us, but is now lost. When I was reading N/T scripture, God inserted some of this missing Word, and then made it disappear again. Some of the verses, are as follows;
1) Fear comes from dishonesty.
2) The Father is always praying for you. (i.e. We do not know how to pray.)
3) You need NO MAN to teach you an understanding of The Word. (You do need man, to introduce you to it.)
We assume that we can properly interpret God's Word, by ourselves. This is vanity. God used the experience of Solomon, in order to 'hi-lite' the scripture 'ever learning but not coming to an understanding', and how Solomon was rewarded for going directly to God, for wisdom. I had done much the same thing as Solomon, without realizing it. For 10 years or so, I had prayed more than once a day, for wisdom, knowledge, understanding and experience. The more that I had listened to ministers, the more that I found wrong with their sermons, and their works. I simply matched what I saw and heard, against the scriptures. I had become very disheartened. I am afraid of God, and yet, I love Him. I wanted to know the truth. I wanted to understand the scriptures properly. Starting several years ago, and continuing for six and a half years, God showed me this truth/wisdom. In one night alone, I read completely through the N/T twice. On the second time through, I remembered what was written further on, because I had just read it a short time ago. God linked a lot of scripture for me.
We all are subject to the temptations of satan, and fall short of the glory of God many times in a single day. This was not what was 'broken'. It is the common Christian belief in 'The Trinity' (3 persons in one). The Son returned to the glory that He had before the world was (without mother). The Son, as The Son of Man, is the same as all other human beings (with mother). We of course know, that He is anointed above all other human beings. Christ is 'our brother'. The words, "My Father and I are one," means exactly what it says. The Son (from the beginning) is part of The Godhead, and secondly as part of The Godhead, He is also 'our Father in heaven' and Christ's Father in heaven. It is The Son's kingdom that is coming. The scriptures bear this out. We cannot see The Almighty God (THE FATHER). Only The Son can approach The Father. The whole book of Revelation, is The Son 'REDEEMING HIS KINGDOM'. The scriptures tell us, that only after this takes place, can The Son submit Himself and His kingdom, unto The Father.
None of the above, is a lie. God is very serious. He went through a lot of 'trouble' teaching me. The scriptures however, tell us, that we will be thrown out of the churches, because if they threw the master out, they will surely throw you out. Not one minister believes what I revealed unto them. I have been told to leave one church; been ridiculed by many; banned from several 'Christian' forums, and ignored by many ministers. Tell me, how many churches/forums/etc., have you been persecuted by? I am simply doing what God asked me to do. I am used to the persecution now. It doesn't bother me anymore. The same Baptist minister that I mentioned above, told me that he knew of no person that was as dedicated to studying the Word of God, as I was. He said that this included himself. Why then, would he not listen and analyze what I was telling him? He was stuck in the same 'interpretation' of the scriptures, that you are, concerning The Trinity and The Godhead. Remember, that it is written, that we will return to the days of Noah. Do you actually believe that this scripture exempts Christian ministers? Did Christ exempt the scribes and Pharisees? I have no other 'proof' to offer to you, other than Rev chpt 4, that it is in fact The Son sitting on the throne. This is all that it took for me to 'see the light', when God showed me the truth. I, however, had the second vision, that you have not experienced. Without the second vision, I probably would have continued in the same belief that you currently have. God had a very difficult time, breaking me away from the current Christian interpretation of The Trinity and The Godhead. He kept making me think of the second vision, and Rev chpt 4, and then other scripture that was pertinent to this same topic. By the time that He was through, I had memorized these verses. I analyzed them over and over, and the only way that they did not contradict themselves, was to make the person sitting on the throne, The Son. It also matched the vision.
In Christ's name,
1) I have never heard of "four figures" before. If it's out there, there must be references. I honestly doubt you can provide any.
2) In fact, this portion of the verse you quote refutes your position decisively. Consider: Revelation 4:11 states that "for thy pleasure they are and were created". Jesus is the Agent of creation, but that verse explicitly states that everything has been done for the Father's pleasure and according to His will:
Since the Person addressed in Revelation 4:11 is the One whose "pleasure" resulted in the decision to act, and since this planning/decreeing prerogative always rests with the Father, the reference here has to be to Him and not to our Lord Jesus who always carries out the Father's pleasure.
Thus you are in error about "the exact same wording" being used in Revelation 4:11 and elsewhere. That is patently not the case in the KJV, other versions, or in the original texts. If you hold yourself to your own standard, you will see that your argument cannot stand because of this critical objection alone.
I also do not relinquish any of my previous, un-refuted objections on this point which had already decisively proved that there are not nor can there be "four figures" and that the Trinity is in fact the scriptural position. It is not acceptable merely to say of someone's carefully crafted response, "well, that's all assumption", especially if such a claim is not true. We could have foregone this entire discussion had I stood on the ground that you are merely assuming that what you have seen is from God. After all, I have no independent means of verifying your visions. I have been willing to entertain the possibility that what you report may be genuine but of course it has to line up with the scriptures or by definition it cannot be. It is incumbent upon you to demonstrate that what you claim does line up with the Bible. Dismissing scriptural objections in a cavalier fashion does not help your case.
3) The notion that you have some independent revelation apart from the Bible is very disturbing. The Bible is God's perfect and complete revelation to mankind (1Cor.13:10). The Bible is not "a" word of God; it is the Word of God. We will receive no further revelation until the Lord Himself returns and we have no need of it. Many have claimed independent communications from God, but none has been legitimate since the New Testament canon was closed by God with the giving of the Book of Revelation to the apostle John in 67 A.D. Neither the Apocrypha, nor the Quran, nor the Book of Mormon, nor any other man-made look-alike is legitimate, and it would take a Christian very poorly-grounded in the Word of Truth to accept the validity of any such additions, however received. Adding to scripture is the most heinous sort of diabolical attack, because it undermines the only sure bedrock of truth any of us have in this spiritually dangerous world. If we compromise our faith in God's truth which the acceptance of "other truth" most definitely would do then we have opened ourselves up to spiritual catastrophe, and the "shipwreck of our faith" may not be far behind. I am afraid that on this point you have shown your "true colors". Why would God give us His Word then take it away again? That is what such additions inevitably and fundamental do, because 1) they undermine our faith in the correctness and fullness of what we actually do have from Him, 2) once we accept the false principle, they get us looking to "what's next" so that we stop focusing on what is good and right and true in our hands right now, and 3) they become a sort of gangrene that eats away at our faith in the whole until we believe nothing because we have placed our faith in the special revelations of a single person instead of in God's holy Word. This is one of the reasons why I take the time to investigate claims of "visions". They always seem to end up in this same place, namely, of contradicting rather than supporting the truth. But then, what else would we really expect a false vision to engender except error and the sabotaging of the truth?
I certainly see the effect of all you say. 1) You have independent revelation from God (so we need you); 2) It teaches things the Bible doesn't teach (so we need you); 3) All the learning, education, experience and hard work of those who spend their lives in Bible ministry means nothing since God is teaching you first hand (so we need you). The inevitable conclusion of all such approaches is for us, the gullible Christian public, to hand over to you (or those making similar claims and pronouncements) our entire trust, tied up in a neat little package for you to use and abuse as you see fit. The next thing you know, we are drinking the Kool-aid at Jones-town or manning the barricades at Waco . . . or enlisting into the beast's false religion. After all, antichrist will claim not only to have special and independent revelation but to actually be Jesus Christ; and he will have some pretty convincing evidence, convincing, that is, for all whose faith is weak. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why the Church is being beset with so many of these pretentious claims here on the cusp on the Tribulation. Good, honest Christians, especially those who have not been inoculated to the like, are inclined to give people who say such things the benefit of the doubt. The more outrageous the claim, the more a simple, credulous Christian is likely to think "No one would say that it if it weren't true, would they?", and then be swept up in the lie (it's called "the big lie" principle). Perhaps you are indeed fulfilling a role in the Church of these last days, the role of teaching us that there is no upper limit to the brazenness of self-proclaimed Messiah's, large or small.
One final point, and then I am afraid this correspondence must end. One other common feature of all such false teaching and deliberate error is that it always involves some attack on the Person or work of Jesus Christ. That is so even if as is usually the case (and as is the case in your emails) the individual or group in question has "good things" to say about our Lord or invokes his Name. One of the devil's prime concerns is to introduce doubt about who Jesus is and/or what He has done for us. Your confusion of the Person of Christ is just such a "tell". No genuine revelation from God would attack the Person of Christ. I grant you that the attack in your presentation is subtle because it is so unprecedented and so confusing, but it is certainly an attack. Once we start to see Jesus as some indecipherable and bifurcated entity instead of who He really is, our Lord and our God, then we have just traded our Christian birthright for a mess of pottage. This sort of stuff may scratch the ears of those who are not dedicated to walking with Jesus, but for the rest of us, you provide an excellent teaching example of the insidiousness of false teaching and the cleverness of the adversary in probing for the weak-links in the faith and biblical understanding of those who may not be following the Lord as closely as they ought to have done.
On the off chance that you will come to your senses and realize that you have been ensnared by the devil to do his will, I will say a prayer for your deliverance. I must say, however, that in my experience and observation, once people get as deep into Satan's morass as you have clearly done, there is generally not much hope left for them. In all of your communications, there has been a noticeable lack of any dedication to or love for Jesus Christ. With the confused picture you paint of Him (or, "Hims"), I suppose that should come as no great surprise.
In Jesus Christ, the One and only Son of God our Lord.
Hi Robert. I believe in the Bible as deeply as you do. I may have even greater fear of 'changing The Word' than you do. I have simply (and honestly) revealed what I have experienced. I am in agreement with most of what you have written to me. As far as item #1 (below), I too have never heard of anyone else believing that there are 4 figures and not 3. This is why I gave you the pastor's name and his church's e-mail address, who told me of this. I personally, do not know of any references from where he got this from.
Many have told me, that I am allowing satan to turn me into a false prophet, in an attempt to destroy God's Word, and lead His sheep astray. They believe that satan has fooled me through 'duplicating' Numbers 12:6. I went to God in prayer at the beginning, after receiving the two visions, and dream. I feared the same thing. God showed me, that satan cannot duplicate Numbers 12:6. If he could, then Numbers 12:6 has no value...it would become meaningless.
I have not changed any scripture. The verses that 'appeared and then later disappeared' while I was reading the N/T verses (there were not that many), have in fact been given to us previously, but have since been lost. They have basically changed nothing. They are simply another way of saying the same things that are already revealed in the Bible, in other written scriptures. They offer no 'new revelations', that would cause anyone to change their beliefs. For all I know, they could have been given to me, for my own purpose. Forget them, if this bothers you.
The Trinity and The Godhead, is a very 'serious' problem, however. If God went through all of the trouble of 'connecting the dots' (wisdom) in the scriptures in order to show me the truth, then it must bother Him. The N/T scripture repeats itself over and over, telling us that it is The Son that created all things, and that it was for The Son's pleasure that all things were created. It also tells us, that The Son must reconcile (redeem) His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom unto The Father. Revelation is this process of 'reconciling/redeeming'. We have 'The Word of God' doing the reconciliation (written on His thigh...The Word of God). Who is The Word? It is The Son, in all of His glory. John chpt 1, states, "He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not." Everything points to The Son (and of course, The Son is always guided by The Father/Holy Ghost). Why do we now, replace 'The Son' with 'The Father' in Rev 4:11? By using your assumption/theory, should I now go back and change every other scripture that refers to The Son (in regards to this topic only), to The Father? Must I now change The Son to a resurrected 'lamb', only? At the time that the Son was begotten, there were no human women or men. The Son had to create them. He could have chosen any man to be The Lamb. If He had chosen another man (that He had 'groomed' from birth), would this 'resurrected man' now 'replace' The Creator, as the Christan ministry has done to The Son, in their 'understanding'? The answer is 'no'. There would be two separate figures. Each figure represents a different 'purpose' (for lack of a better wording). The resurrected Lamb ties into 1 John 5:8. The Lamb is the 'proof' that the sacrifice took place, and we know by other scripture, that The Son took on this function, Himself. The Son, has also returned back to the glory that He had, before the world was (The Creator...not The Lamb). We now have two figures, representing The Son. This is what my second vision showed me. Am I 'evil', because of what God showed me? Have I changed His Word? Have I misinterpreted what I was shown? Why must I assume (in order to please you), that no man has ever seen The Father, at any time, ....EXCEPT IN REV 4:11, or when man saw Christ sitting on the right hand of God, and that The Father appeared in some other form, so that the scripture would not be broken? There is no scripture to back your 'theory' up. This means, that it is based on nothing more, than vanity. If you doubt this, then go to God in prayer, and ask Him...before condemning me as a false prophet. This condemnation, is a form of persecution. If you are in error, think of what this means. If you are correct, then I am a false prophet.
I write the above, not out of 'high-headedness' nor for evil purposes, but out of love and caring.
In Christ's name,
"The N/T scripture repeats itself over and over, telling us that it is The Son that created all things, and that it was for The Son's pleasure that all things were created."
Where does it state that "it was for The Son's pleasure that all things were created"?
If you wish to continue this correspondence, please supply me with a list of these passage where "scripture repeats itself over and over" on this point.
Hi Robert. The way that I interpret the Bible, is that the whole Bible is a record of The Son's creations, management by Him of His creations, provision of Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for the redemption of His creations, and finally, His reconciliation of His creations, and the setting up of His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom unto The Father. It is written, that this pleased The Father, to allow everything to be under His Son's rule. (1 Cor 15:24-28, 2 Cor 5:19, 1 Timothy 2:5, Colossians 1:12-22 (Colossians 1:19...pleased The Father) (Colossians 1:15...image of the INVISIBLE God).
Colossians 1:15, ties in to other scripture that tells us that no man has ever seen 'The Father'/ 'The Almighty God'. It cannot be The Father sitting on the throne in Rev 4:11. There is nowhere in scripture, that tells us that The Father will EVER be seen by anyone, other than His Son. We do not even know if The Son has ever seen The Father. The scriptures never say that The Father will be sitting on a throne. All scripture points to The Son (Our Father in heaven, and Christ's Father in heaven). There is a difference between The Son as 'God', and The Son as 'Man'. We know that 'God was in the man Christ'.
Again, the second vision that I had, followed my interpretation, above. The Father and The Holy Ghost were at the end of the channel, but I was not allowed to see them. It was 'made known unto me', however, that they were in fact at the end of this channel. I had to have all four present in the vision, in order to see the truth. Even after seeing this vision, and reading the scriptures, I still had a hard time coming to grips with the reality that there were four 'figures'. The Trinity had been so deeply 'ingrained' in my Christian faith, that I fought these revelations with all that I could muster.
In Christ's name,
With all due respect, you did not answer my question. Fundamental to your argument that your interpretation rests "on scripture" is your claim that "it was for The Son's pleasure that all things were created", a claim which you represented as being repeated "over and over" by scripture. Never having read this anywhere myself, I asked you for a list of passages which support the claim. None of these passages you do include in your latest response say anything about the issue whatsoever, and the only passage which even invokes the idea of "for whom" anything was pleasing is Colossians 1:19:
Please note that 1) this passage is not talking about creation; 2) this passage is talking about the Father's pleasure (and it is my understanding that it was indeed for the Father's pleasure that "all things were created" in Rev.4:11); 3) this passage does not even come close to suggesting that "it was for The Son's pleasure that all things were created", since the Son is the recipient here of the Father's pleasure.
Your "four figure" hypothesis rises and falls with this claim which you are unable to support with a single scripture. That is because this is the only scriptural means you have found for connecting "for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" in Revelation 4:11 with the Son rather than with the Father. When it becomes clear that your claim to the effect that Revelation 4:11 "has to refer to the Son" because "scripture repeats itself over and over" on the point of all things being created for the Son's pleasure is, in fact, not the case at all, then your "four figure" hypothesis falls since it is in turn completely dependent upon your unique interpretation of Revelation 4:11 as referring to the Son instead of to the Father whom every other reader naturally sees here on the throne, not the Son.
This "four figure" theory, therefore, is clearly the result of your own personal interpretation of your own vision, and does not come from the Bible nor can it even be reasonably imposed on the Bible from without. It is a free country (so far, anyway), and you are certainly entitled to have your own theories and interpretations. But don't you think it is time you acknowledged that this is what is going on? It is rather unfair of you to wish to impose your own views on the rest of us on the grounds that they come from scripture when the truth is that they merely seem to you to be consistent with your personal experiences (quite a difference).
In Jesus Christ our Lord, true God and true man in one unique Person forever.
Hi Robert. I understand your response. What I do not understand, is your lack of 'connection' of the scriptures. Are you saying, that The Son has no pleasure or joy in having been given the title of God (part of The Godhead), or that He also has no pleasure in being the ruler over His kingdom, that He was allowed to create under the direction of The Father? Is The Son's only pleasure, consisting of His obedience to The Father? This is ludicrous. Put yourself in His position. How would you feel? All heaven and earth, reports to The Son. The Son reports to The Father. It pleased The Father to 'glorify' His Son. Jesus Christ states that He is looking forward to the glory that He had before the world was. Is this not a pleasurable/joyous affair? Of course it is. Was He talking about His 'position' as Christ, or His 'position' as God?
You also continue to ignore the other items that I brought up. If The Father is 'INVISIBLE', how did John see The Father sitting on a throne? How did man see Christ sitting on the right hand of God? Why is it written, that no man has seen The Father (The Almighty God)? If The Son had not created anything, there would be no need for a 'Christ'. The same would be true, if all of creation was sinless. The Son, as God, cannot be changed or destroyed. Your belief, has 'trapped' God the Son, as resurrected Son of Man (who was created 'below the angels'). Isaiah feared death, when He saw The Lord of Hosts. He thought that he would be put to death. If it was The Father that he had seen, he probably would have been put to death.
Revelation does not mention The Holy Ghost/Spirit. Neither does Isaiah 44:6. Revelation does mention 'The Word of God'. Is this not The Son? There is no mention of The Father doing anything. It is The Word of God that is judging the world. This also ties into the scripture concerning the submission of the Son and His kingdom unto The Father...AFTER The Son reconciles His kingdom. Revelation is the reconciliation process.
I really have nothing more to add.
In Christ's name,
The precise wording of Revelation 4:11 is the basis for your argument. Now that it is clear that you cannot prove your claim, attempting to shift the argument away from your main point is standard rhetorical debate technique and has no place in honest discussions of theology. It would be very easy for me to do the same and turn your latest "twist" completely around: "Are you saying that the Father was uninvolved or disinterested in creation and took no pleasure in it?"
As you know very well by now, there is no way to make our dear Lord Jesus who is ONE Person and NOT two "figures" the subject of Revelation 4:11. And thus your scriptural support for the "four figures" has entirely evaporated.
You second two paragraphs I find very disheartening because they only serve to show that not only do you not agree with what I have written to try and help you escape from these heretical notions but you have not even listened to what I have said to the point of remembering I even said it. As I have pointed out repeatedly, the Father is invisible to physical human eyes, but He has revealed Himself in visions to prophets (which do not constitute "seeing" Him physically) on more than one occasion; therefore there is no problem or contradiction on this score (see previous emails for scriptures and argumentation).
You seem to be the only person in the history of the interpretation of the Bible who has attempted to refute the very clear meaning of Revelation chapters four and five that the Person in view on the throne is the Father.
As to the Holy Spirit, as mentioned, He is indeed present in Revelation as "the Seven Spirits of God" (Rev.1:4; 3:1; 4:5; 5:6; cf. Is.11:1-3; see the link: "The Seven-Fold Spirit of God"), a title which describes the perfection of His ministry and is completely in keeping with His role of working invisibly but powerfully behind the scenes while Jesus is the revealed Person of God.
Your latest missile seems to be more pointedly attacking the Trinity than ever before. I am happy to have that discussion, if you wish, but it is a somewhat different one. Please see the following links on that:
Explaining and Defending the Trinity and the Person of Christ.
If indeed God really did give you special communication and a special experience, it would certainly not be for the purpose of undermining the faith of other believers or leading them into falsehood and error. That logic leads me to conclude that either you are seriously misinterpreting what you were given or else the vision et al., if it did happen, was not from God at all. True Christians have one standard against which to measure everything the world, the flesh and the devil throw at them, namely, the Bible, which is the only special revelation we can count on as being truly of God. Whenever something someone else has seen or heard or claims does not agree with scripture, no matter how persuasively it is pitched, we are not only within our rights but actually required to reject it out of hand. Deception is a problem for the Church at all times; how much more is that not the case for us as we stand on the threshold of the Tribulation?
We ask you in Christ's Name, be reconciled to God!
Even if I see with my eyes or hear with my ears or am presented by an angel a "different gospel", for my part I will continue to believe that Jesus Christ is the one way of salvation through faith in His Name His perfect Person, human and divine, and His perfect work in standing judgment in my place for all my sins.
In His Name and for His glory.