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The Day of the Lord II

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Question #1:  I read your article on the day of the Lord vs. the tribulation. I noticed that you left out the starting point for the day of the Lord. This starting point is the darkness immediately after the tribulation of those days, Matthew 24:29. This is noted in Joel 2:31, stating that the great and terrible day of the Lord can't come until this darkness appears. Since the bible says that there is no light in the day of the Lord, then we know that it will be a day of destruction for the earth. This day [ or period of time ] ends when the 7 vials are poured out, and according to Rev. 15:1, this will fill up [ finish ] the wrath of God. when the seventh vial is poured out, a great voice says "it is done". The armies of Satan have already gathered, and then Jesus comes to harvest the ungodly, purge the earth, and set up his kingdom. One more note: Isaiah 2:11,17, says that the Lord ALONE shall be exalted in the day of the Lord. In other words, the antichrist will be exalted in the days of the tribulation period, but so will the Lord. During the day of the Lord, the Lamb has complete worship.  Thanks for your answer, in the Lord,

Response #1:  The "Day of the Lord" is used somewhat flexibly in the prophets and often means more than the 24 hour "day" of the Second Advent (see the links: "The Day of the Lord" and "The Day of the Lord Paradigm"). It can indeed refer to the actual moment of Christ's return (as in Joel 2:31), or it can refer to the entire end-times associated with that return. Without question it often includes the Millennium and final disposition of the world (2nd Peter 3:10), so that it is no great stretch to see how that it could also include in the prophetic way of expressing things the events which immediately precede it and are for that reason intimately connected with it (e.g., Revelation presents the Tribulation, Second Advent, Millennium and Eternal State as a unity). Thus the Tribulation is more often than not also considered as part of the Day (the context of Joel 2 bears this out as well). So while Joel 2:31 does emphasize the actual point of Christ's return, it does not exclude the fact that occasionally scripture includes the Tribulation as an important preparatory part in the expression "the Day of the Lord". This is especially so because the theme of the Day is usually one of judgment (as in your quotations), and the judgments of the Tribulation which precede Armageddon and the Second Advent (the "technical" start of the Day), were often deemed important to include by the writers of scripture as they wrote in the Spirit. Here is what I have written about this:

The "Day of the Lord" technically begins with Armageddon and the events that betoken its proximity. However, given that all divine judgment during the Tribulation serves to warn of this impending "day of judgment", this phrase in prophecy is often also inclusive of events that will actually occur during the Tribulation.

Howl, for the Day of the Lord is near, all destroying from the Almighty. Therefore will every hand hang slack and every human heart melt, and they will be dismayed. Convulsions and pain will seize them, and they will writhe like a woman about to give birth. They will look at each other in astonishment, their faces ablaze. Behold, the Day of the Lord is coming, a mighty day of anger and intense wrath, to make the earth desolate and remove her sinners from upon her. For the stars of heaven and the constellations will not flash forth their light. The sun will grow dark on its course and the moon will not pour out its light. Then will I punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will bring an end to the arrogance of the proud and bring down the haughtiness of the ruthless. I will make men more rare than gold, and mankind than the choice bullion of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth will quake from its place on account of the anger of the Lord and on the day of His fierce wrath.
Isaiah 13:6-13

As you can see from the above quotation, many of these events must take place during the Tribulation, and cannot be limited to Armageddon. This is a very typical prophetic approach, namely, that of folding the Tribulation into the Day, since it is an important precursor of the Day and difficult if not impossible to separate from it.

Thank you for your interest in this ministry.

In our dear Lord Jesus,

Bob Luginbill

Question #2: 

Dear Bob,

Thank you for your comments, but I can't seem to find scripture in the bible that includes the tribulation in the day of the Lord. The scriptures that you give, are exclusively for the day of the Lord. Isaiah 13:6-13 is only about the day of the Lord. Looking at verse 8, we read, "And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth : they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames". This description is the same that used when he described the day of the Lord. 1 Thess. 5:3, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them , AS TRAVAIL UPON A WOMAN WITH CHILD and they shall not escape". The tribulation is the beginning birth pangs, or the beginning of sorrows, Matthew 24:8. The day of the Lord is when there is no more mercy, called the birthing, or destruction from the Almighty. Amos tells us that during the day of the Lord, there will be no light in it, even very dark, and no brightness in it, 5:18,19. But we know that during the tribulation there will be periods of darkness, but not total darkness. And again we have the prophet Joel telling us that the day of the Lord won't come until there is complete darkness.


Matthew tells us that there is complete darkness AFTER the tribulation, so we know that the day of the Lord can't come until the tribulation ends.

3 1/2 years of tribulation            day of the Lord                              thousand years



In the Lord,

Response #2: 

Well, you make a good point. Let me start by quoting again what I say in CT 1:

The "Day of the Lord" technically begins with Armageddon and the events that betoken its proximity. However, given that all divine judgment during the Tribulation serves to warn of this impending "day of judgment", this phrase in prophecy is often also inclusive of events that will actually occur during the Tribulation.

So I don't disagree with anything you have written except in part with "The scriptures that you give, are exclusively for the day of the Lord." These scriptures are indeed about the Day, but they often take into account the events the precede the Day. For example, in the Isaiah 13 passage we read in verse 12 "I will make men more rare than gold, and mankind than the choice bullion of Ophir." This seems to me at least to include the process which begins in the Tribulation (with the trumpet and bowl judgments; cf. Zeph.1:2-3) and has that previous process of judgment in mind (after all, Armageddon is a local judgment directed against the forces of antichrist and not against the population of the world at large). Also we read in verse 11 "Then will I punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity." -- again, given what we know of the Tribulation, I don't think we want to exclude it entirely from this verse since much of the worldwide effect of divine judgments has already taken place (especially in the trumpet and bowl judgments). To take another example, in Joel chapter two verse one, we read that the Day is near, but what follows is a description of the lengthy Armageddon campaign (taking some months at least, so Amos is including at least those many prior days). Or again in Zephaniah 1:15-16 "That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness, a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers." -- all of which is descriptive of the Second Advent, yes, but also very much so of the Tribulation as well, with a strict exclusion of the tribulational events from this description seeming, to me at least, misleading. So there are many places where we see, in the prophetic broad-brush of viewing the end-times as a panorama, that the Tribulation is understood to be so closely associated with the Day that it is conceived of as a part of the Day, as something inextricably connected to it to the extent that it foreshadows it and shows that it is impending.  This is also true of all that follows the 24 hour day of Lord's return (i.e., the Millennium, which lasts a thousand years, and eternity thereafter).

As I have written and as I have said, you are certainly technically correct. I do appreciate your suggestion, and I could be a bit more emphatic about the technical start-point of the Day as being the blessed day of our Lord's return.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #3: 

Bob said:

The "Day of the Lord" technically begins with Armageddon and the events that betoken its proximity. However, given that all divine judgment during the Tribulation serves to warn of this impending "day of judgment", this phrase in prophecy is often also inclusive of events that will actually occur during the Tribulation.

Thanks for your comments. Let me tell you how I see the trumpet judgements. I see them as WARNING judgements, happening sometime during the tribulation period. The reason I see it this way is because of the beast who ascends out of the bottomless pit, Rev. 17:8. This beast is the same beast of Rev. 13:1 who has a deadly wound and lives again. This man of sin will take over as antichrist 3 years before the end, and since the bottomless pit is locked until the fifth trumpet, that means the fifth trumpet must be blown at the 3 1/2 year mark. This leaves the sixth and seventh trumpet to be blown. The seventh trumpet will be blown right after the sixth seal is opened. Jesus will come at this point. That leaves the seven vials to be poured out during the day of the Lord, which I believe will last for just a few days, ending with Armageddon.

You said:

For example, in the Isaiah 13 passage we read in verse 12 "I will make men more rare than gold, and mankind than the choice bullion of Ophir." This seems to me at least to include the process which begins in the Tribulation (with the trumpet and bowl judgments; cf. Zeph.1:2-3)

I see the meaning of men being more rare then gold to mean that he is going to destroy the sinner out of the land, period. Isaiah 13:9. People will be killed during the tribulation, but, all sinners will be destroyed during the day of the Lord. Rev. 18:19-21. This is the final harvest of the wicked, Rev. 17:17-20. You know, in all the scriptures that mention great tribulation, none go into any detail of what is going to take place. In fact, a lot of teachers use the events described for the day of the Lord to show how bad the tribulation will be. I really don't understand this. The day of the Lord is the worst that any man could ever visualize. Isaiah says that it will come as a destruction from the Almighty. He goes on to say that it cometh cruel, with wrath and fierce anger to lay the land desolate, and he shall destroy the sinner out of it. This is FINAL JUDGEMENT. This is the wrath that we are to escape. The eternal wrath of God. The tribulation is closely related to the day of the Lord. It comes right on the tail of the tribulation, separated by the darkness of Joel 2:31, and Matthew 24:29.

What do you think?

In the Lord,

Response #3: 

The trumpet judgments are warning judgments, whereas the bowl judgments are punitive. For the entire detailed descriptions, see the links in CT 3A "The Trumpet Judgments" and in CT 5 "The Bowl Judgments".   I include here the two pertinent charts:


I would agree that the trumpet judgments serve as warnings, but otherwise I am in disagreement with your chronology of the Tribulation.  The trumpets take place during the first half of the Tribulation and warn of the impending Great Tribulation (the second three and a half year period).  The seventh trumpet is synonymous with that Great Tribulation and begins that final period before Christ's return.  The Bowl Judgments precede His return and are punitive rather than monitory.  The seals serve a different purpose entirely:  they are on the outside of the "book of Revelation of Jesus Christ", and serve to show the observer the major trends that will take place once the book is opened (i.e., once the Tribulation begins; see the link: in CT 2B "The Seven Seals"). 

Thus the trumpets all play out in the Tribulation's first half (as the fairly chronological order of Revelation shows), whereas the bowl judgments are both harbingers of the end and punishments for the Great Persecution. The seventh trumpet is synonymous with the Great Tribulation, announcing it so to speak (the third and greatest "woe"). Our Lord only returns after the second half of the Tribulation is completed. Scripture is actually "chock full" of information about the Tribulation, especially in the Old Testament (if properly interpreted). That's one of the things I have tried to set right in the Coming Tribulation series, as many evangelical exegetes have been somewhat lazy about digging into OT prophecy in the original Hebrew (where the meaning is often quite different in the original than the accepted meaning built upon generations of English-only scrutiny or even relative  neglect).

I can't agree with your take on mankind being made rare as gold referencing merely Israel -- I think any fair assessment of this passage will find that it is speaking of a depopulation of the entire world, something that does happen in the course of the Tribulation worldwide, but is not really consistent with the (admittedly extensive) slaughter of antichrist's forces at Armageddon. I agree that the Day is filled with awful consequences -- some of which have already been realized when our Lord returns. In that regard, I certainly do agree with your statement "The tribulation is closely related to the day of the Lord. It comes right on the tail of the tribulation, separated by the darkness of Joel 2:31, and Matthew 24:29." This is essentially the point I have been trying to make -- this is the way the OT prophets see it and describe it, viewing those future events as a unity from a distance.  It is for that reason that the Tribulation is often described as being a part of "the Day".

Question #4: 


1. The last 3 1/2 years of this age is the wrath of Satan, Rev. 12:12.

2. The 5th seal, and 5th trumpet starts the 3 1/2 years, Rev. 6:9, 9:1, 2.

3. The 7th trumpet ends the tribulation, Rev. 10:7.

4. Jesus comes for the church at the 6th seal, and 7th trumpet, Matt. 24:29-31, 1 Corinth. 15:52. This is "day of Christ". 7th trumpet/rewards given, Rev. 11:18.

5. The day of the Lord can now start, Joel 2:31.

6. The 7 vials are poured out, Rev. 15:1, 16:1-21.

7. The armies of the kings of the earth are gathered at the 6th vial.

8. Jesus comes to "smite" the earth, Rev. 19:11-21, Isaiah 13:6-13. "2nd coming". This ends day of the Lord's wrath. He then sets up his kingdom/1000 yrs.

If any of your teaching fits into my outline, then I can agree with it. If not, something

is out of order.

Please comment.

In the Lord,

Response #4:

As is obvious from the information previously provided and from a study of the CT series generally, we have, as I said earlier, many points of disagreement on the chronology of the end times. One major point has to do with your chronological application of the seals. Again, these are on the outside of the book, and serve to give an overview of what will happen when the book is opened. The first four seals give tribulational trends of the first half of the Tribulation, while the fifth and sixth seals depict the two major events of the Great Tribulation. The seventh seal describes the end:

The Tribulation's First Half (four major trends):

1. White horse: Antichrist's Conquests: the trend of warfare and aggression

2. Red horse: Civil Discord: the trend of lawlessness and political destabilization

3. Black horse: Economic Constraint: the trend of economic dislocation and famine

4. Pale-green horse: Accelerated Mortality: the trend of plague and rampant death

The Great Tribulation (two major events):

5. Martyrs: the Great Persecution (of believers by antichrist and his religion)

6. Judgments: the Second Advent (with its preliminary and concomitant judgments)

Thus, the seals do not constitute an alternate chronology. Their relative chronology agrees with what we find in the rest of Revelation. After all, the seals have to be removed before the book can be read. That is, the seals are a descriptive synopsis of what is inside, and follow the same relative chronology, but the more detailed explanation and description of events is to be found in what follows (and it follows in a generally chronological manner).

The trumpet judgments all take place during the first half of the Tribulation with the exception that the seventh trumpet is both the announcement of the Great Tribulation and coterminous with it as the "third woe". The bowl judgments are warning judgments that precede the end, and must occupy a significant amount of time (i.e., just the playing out of the first four, the plunging of the kingdom of the beast into darkness, the call to Armageddon, the destruction via invasion of Babylon, and the mustering and collecting of antichrist's forces from all over the earth cannot happen overnight). In my view (put forward in the release of part 5 of the CT series), the bowl judgments are parallel to the trumpet judgments in their collective overall duration (as they parallel them in many other respects as well), only more intense in that they overlap (see the previous chart "The Bowl Judgments", and in this way occupy the final twelve moths of the Great Tribulation. Thus, just as the trumpet judgments take place over the final year of the Tribulation's first half (and serve as a warning of it), so the bowl judgments take place over the final year of the Great Tribulation and constitute a prelude of judgment which precedes the ultimate judgment of the Day of the Lord.

So I would not line up the chronology the way you have done. But I will observe that our interpretations have many things in common, and am am convinced if you have a look at the details in the series linked above, you will see how all of this does in fact fit into place.

In our Lord,

Bob L.

Question #5: 

Where we disagree:

You say that 7th trumpet is the start of the last 3 1/2 years.

I say that the 7th trumpet ends the great tribulation period, bringing on the day of the Lord.

You say the vials are poured out during the last half of the tribulation.

I say that they are poured out after the entire tribulation period is over, and are poured out during the day of the lord.

Look at my timeline and you will see the scriptures that I use to document my ideas. Where are your scriptures?

In the Lord,

Response #5: 

I stand by my previous statements.  Please see my earlier replies on this. For additional scriptures and explanations, please see the following link for the seven studies of Coming Tribulation currently available, 750+ pages single-spaced of detailed exegesis (along with charts and illustrations) wherein scripture is voluminously consulted:

Coming Tribulation Home Page

The book of Revelation is written, in my view, in a fairly sequential chronological order, from beginning to end way. It starts with an overview of the Church Age to come, and ends with the New Jerusalem and the eternal state. Babylon is destroyed near the end of the book. The beast rises from the sea in the middle and is cast into the lake of fire near the end. Our Lord returns near the end. On the other hand, if the general progression were not chronological, which is after all what anyone would expect without presuppositions, it would have to shown where such indications are to be found.

I am certainly happy to answer questions about any of the positions expressed in these studies. We do disagree on some important points, and I have attempted to explain my reasons for my understanding of what Revelation and other scriptures teach (as I say, there is much more to be  found at the link above). I have indeed looked at your time line, but the scriptures referenced there do not indicate to me that any change in my position is warranted. I have considered these passages for many years, and find that them to be completely consistent with the schema advanced in the Coming Tribulation series.

You are certainly free to disagree, and on my part (as I sure is true with you as well) there is nothing personal at all in this disagreement. In the end, I would hope that we are striving for the same thing: an accurate understanding of the Word of God.

In our Lord Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #6:  


You bet, we are just trying to understand each others veiwpoints. I have one more question. Since you believe that the 7th trumpet starts the tribulation, can you explain to me, in detail, the events that take place at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, Rev.11:18-19, and why would these events be at the beginning of the trib, instead of the end?

In the Lord,

Response #6: 

They are not at the beginning -- they are in the middle. And the seventh trumpet does not start the Tribulation but the Great Tribulation. The trumpets occur during the last year of the first half of the Tribulation, with the seventh trumpet ushering in the Great Tribulation, the final three and a half years of the seven year period. Thus the trumpets warn of the Great Tribulation. The major trend in the first half of the Tribulation is the Great Apostasy wherein a third of believers fall away from the Lord. The Great Tribulation's signature event is the Great Persecution wherein a sizable number of the remaining true believers in Jesus are martyred on His behalf (beginning with the 144,000). So the trumpets serve to warn against this growing apostasy already in place on the one hand, and also against the major issue in the coming second half: taking the mark of the beast which goes hand in hand with his persecution of the true Church and his substitution of the satanic false religion which he will call "Christian", representing himself as the true "Christ" (hence the name anti-Christ).

As to the events which accompany the blowing of the seventh trumpet, we see similar events before the beginning of the Tribulation proper and also before the return of our Lord, only with the intensity of the "punctuating events" gaining in intensity as we move closer to the end.  Here is what I have written about this in the most recent installment of Coming Tribulation in regard to two of these harbingers, "earthquakes" and "hail":

Earthquakes:  Earthquakes are prominent precursors of most of the ever shortening periods of warning that lead up to our Lord's return (Matt.24:7; Mk.13:8; Lk.21:11; cf. Amos 1:2 w/ 1:1; Hag.2:6-7; Heb.12:26-29), and, as this unprecedented temblor indicates, their intensity parallels the intensity of the period covered.  For we find exceptional earthquakes characterizing and marking the commencement of . . . 1) the Church Age (lasting 1000 years: Matt.27:51; 27:54; 28:2; Acts 4:31; cf. Acts 2:1-2);  [2) possibly the era of Laodicea (lasting 144 years)];  3) the Tribulation (lasting 7 years: Rev.8:5);  4) the Great Tribulation (lasting 3.5 years:  Rev.11:13; 11:19);  5) this earthquake which accompanies the Seventh Bowl Judgment (and governs the period 6 months prior to the Second Advent: Rev.16:18-20);  6) the Second Advent proper (coincidental with the Day of the Lord's official commencement: Is.29:6; Ezek.38:19; cf. Zech.14:3-5; Rev.6:12); and finally, 7) the beginning of eternity (Hag.2:6-7; 2:20-21; 2Pet.3:10-13; Rev.6:12-17; 20:11).  As is the case with many of the horrendous events to occur during the Tribulation, it is difficult to digest and appreciate the magnitude of this earthquake and the terror it will inspire when actually experienced (cf. Lk.21:25-31).  Scripture clearly indicates that this earthquake will be unparalleled in human history and experience.  Furthermore, its effects will also be of an unprecedented magnitude.  Not only that, we are also told as we might expect of an earthquake of such incomprehensible force that it will bring down "the cities of the gentiles". 

Hail Large hailstones falling worldwide, it will be recalled, also accompanied the blowing of the seventh trumpet, the event which heralded the beginning of the Great Tribulation proper, also accompanied by "thunderous voices and flashes of lightning and an earthquake" (Rev.11:19).   But just as the earthquake of the seventh bowl judgment is exponentially larger and incomparably more devastating than its predecessor, so this worldwide hailstorm will be without parallel in world history, surpassing both the seventh plague of the Exodus (9:13-35) and the hail rained down by the Lord upon the Canaanite kings at Gibeon (Josh.10:11) – not only in its ferocity, but also by virtue of the fact that it will not be localized as those two judgments were:  everyone on earth will feel the fury of this divine judgment (believers excepted to some degree as always: cf. Is.26:20-21; 32:19-20).

So the fact that the events which accompany the blowing of the seventh trumpet are severe does not at all necessarily show that we have to do there with the Second Advent.

In Jesus,

Question #7: 


You said that the trumpets occur during the last year of the first half of the tribulation, with the 7th trumpet ushering in the great tribulation. Where is the scriptural documentation for this? In other words, what scripture pin-points this last year of the first half of the trib? Since you believe that the 7th trumpet starts the GREAT tribulation, can you explain to me, in more detail, the events that take place at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, Rev.11:18-19, and why would these events be at the MIDDLE of the trib, instead of the end?

In the Lord,

Response #7: 

Here is what I have written about that:

1. The Seventh Trumpet (Revelation 11:15a): With the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the Great Tribulation begins. Seven is the number of perfection and completion (cf. Ps.12:6; 119:164; Prov.6:16; 9:1),(1) and as we saw in part 3A of this series, while the first six trumpets announce and commence warning judgments of ascending intensity and longevity during the Tribulation's first half, the seventh trumpet opens the longest and most intensive warning judgment of all, namely, the Great Tribulation itself. For the Great Tribulation is the ultimate admonition to prepare to meet with God, for He is coming at the end of that final three and a half years in the Person of the conquering Messiah who will mete out vengeance to His adversaries even as He brings deliverance to His people (cf. 2Thes.1:3-12). That is why all of the other events and proclamations in this paragraph, Revelation 11:15-19, directly connect the sounding of the seventh trumpet and the Great Tribulation's commencement to that glorious future day. For the Tribulation as a whole is, as we have seen, the opening twilight of the Great Day of the Lord whose dawn will come in blazing glory with the Second Advent of the Morning Star, the Messiah, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the true Light of the World (Num.24:17; Matt.2:2-10; 2Pet.1:19; Rev.2:28; 22:16; cf. Jn.1:4-9; 3:19-21; 8:12; 9:5; 12:36; 12:46).

The rise of beast doesn't even happen until chapter 13. I know of no literary convention or other precedent for mixing things up the way you suggest -- in the absence, at any rate, of any scriptures to the contrary that would lead me to believe as you do that the seventh trumpet ends the Tribulation (especially as most of what remains in the book of Revelation from this point in chapter eleven forward is about the Tribulation). On the other hand, if you look at the book from the sequential point of view, this schema I have suggested makes at lot of sense. Trumpets warn. But the bowls are clearly punitive. It makes little sense for a set of warnings to be contemporaneous with a set of judgments (especially when the warnings are painful enough in their own right). But if you accept that the warnings come first and are followed by the judgments, then it is only a question of how much time intervenes. Understanding the trumpets as warning against the period of Great Tribulation thus has much to recommend it.

As to the events that follow the second trumpet, here is what I have written:

2. The Proclamation of the Kingdom (Revelation 11:15b): The traditional translation of this verse "the kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ", common to all the major versions (with which the author is familiar) and popularized by Handel's "Messiah" is, while possible, very unlikely from both a linguistic and a theological perspective. Linguistically, the traditional translation depends upon taking the genitive phrase "of our Lord and of His Christ" as the predicate of the sentence, and, while this is not impossible, it is somewhat rare and certainly uncharacteristic of John's writing. But in its particular word order, directly after the first genitive phrase, "of this world", deriving such a meaning would be suspect for most later Greek prose and altogether incongruous with John's style. On the other hand, the translation given above is entirely in keeping with John's Hebraic compilation of genitives. The above translation is to be preferred on theological grounds as well (although it may seem at first glance as if there is no great difference of meanings between the two translations). For while the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of heaven in the person of the Messiah is a central theme of Revelation, that Kingdom's arrival cannot correctly be understood as in any way an equivalent to the current kosmos of evil. Satan's rule over planet earth has never been absolute or uncontested, and to equate the two kingdoms in any way (as the traditional translation of necessity does) is a mistake. Simply put, there is no sense in which the devil's kingdom of evil could ever "become" the Kingdom of the Messiah. Satan's kingdom is on the point of being entirely replaced by the Messiah's coming millennial Kingdom, not "morphed" into it in any way or in any sense. When the Kingdom of heaven does arrive with the second advent of our Lord in glory, Satan's kingdom will come to an end. It will not "become" anything except extinct. What we have here is not a transfer of power but a complete replacement of the old with the new heralded here through this proclamation of the imminent arrival of the Kingdom (now spiritually operational) "in the flesh" at the revelation of its King, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, whose rule will endure forever and ever (exactly the same point made in very similar language at Rev.12:10ff.).

3. The Worship of the Angelic Elders (Revelation 11:16-18): The seventh trumpet is the Great Tribulation, the final twilight of the devil's rule soon to be dissolved by the brilliant light of the Day-Star's dawning as our Lord returns and takes up His millennial rule in Jerusalem. Each of the sections of Revelation chapter 11:15-19 speak to this same central point, even as each adds additional details. The proclamation of verse 15b puts into words the underlying meaning of the 7th trumpet, namely, the imminent judgment upon the world, its evil, and present evil ruler with the victorious return of the rightful King. At the end of this final 42 month period, Christ will return to mete out judgment upon the nations who have thronged together to oppose Him, and will wreak vengeance upon all those who have persecuted His Church and oppressed His people Israel. In the synoptic picture presented in the hymn of the 24 elders, therefore, we find the establishment of the Kingdom whose imminent advent on the far side of the Great Tribulation the 7th trumpet announces ("you have taken up your great power and begun to reign"), the destruction of the nations at Armageddon at the second advent ("the nations thronged together in their wrath, [but] your wrath has come"; cf. Ps.2:1-2), and the culmination of all of history in the last judgment ("the time for the dead to be judged"), with the rewarding of the resurrected Church in the newly established millennial Kingdom receiving additional emphasis as an encouragement for all who will endure the dark days of the Great Tribulation immediately preceding that time ("for giving to your servants . . . . . the reward [that is due them]"). Finally, the vengeance about to fall upon all involved in committing, aiding, or abetting the Great Persecution comes in for special mention. Christ's impending return will result in the literal destruction of "those who are destroying the earth", a phrase with primarily moral and spiritual implications, referring in particular to all who have been responsible for the martyrdom of those who remain faithful to Jesus (rather than referring exclusively to any physical or environmental damage to planet earth proper; cf. in Rev.19:2, the whore Babylon "who was destroying the earth by her excessive prostitution", that is, destroying it in a moral and spiritual sense; cf. Is.14:18; Hab.2:17; Rev.6:7-8). This includes Babylon, the beast, the devil, his angels, the nations and those from the nations who participated in Satan's evil plan to eradicate the faithful and the seed of Israel from the earth. So we see that just as they did prior to the opening of the book with its seven seals representing the beginning of the Tribulation proper (Rev.5:8-10; albeit in this earlier instance they do so in company with the four living creatures), here too the twenty-four elders are performing a special hymn of worship to memorialize the importance of the 7th trumpet, the event which marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation even as it heralds the imminent arrival of the Kingdom and its King who will vindicate His own on the dawning of the Great Day of the Lord.

4. The Appearance of the Ark (Revelation 11:19a): As we have had occasion to see several times in the past, the earthly ark of the covenant along with its "mercy seat", constructed under the supervision of Moses, together symbolize God's throne which takes the form of a battle chariot (Ezek.1:4-28; 10:9-22; cf. Ps.132:7).(5) The earthly ark no longer exists (cf. Jer.3:16), but the appearance of a heavenly ark here is highly significant. As the temple opens, the rolling out of this war chariot of God symbolizes the imminence of the Messiah's return to do battle on behalf of His people, meting out retribution upon all the enemies of God. For, as we have seen before, the ark is itself a picture of Jesus Christ (with the acacia wood covered in gold representing His true humanity and resplendent deity respectively), so that what we have here is a powerful symbol of the conquering Messiah poised to return to earth at the head of His heavenly hosts for the vindication of His saints and for the destruction of His foes. Therefore the message behind the appearance of the ark is substantially the same as that of the sounding of the 7th trumpet, of the heavenly proclamation of verse 15b, and of the hymn of the twenty-four elders. For all of these events and symbols focus our attention upon the coming judgments of Armageddon as our Lord returns in glory to vanquish His enemies and in victory to establish His millennial Kingdom on earth. The fourfold emphasis upon this same essential point unquestionably means that we are to take special note: the beginning of the Great Tribulation (announced by this final trumpet blast), for all the horrific suffering those three and a half years will entail, is in truth merely a prelude to the end of the devil's control of planet earth and to the beginning of the reign of the Son of God following His glorious and decisive victory at the second advent. This is an extremely important point to digest, especially for all those to whom it may fall to endure those dark days. For the message is clear: the darkest period of human history and the period of greatest Satanic persecution is, from God's perspective, merely a brief overture that serves to usher in the end of the reign of evil and darkness upon the earth and the beginning of the reign of truth and light in the person of the Son of Man, the true Morning Star, our blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

5. The Heavenly Signs (Revelation 11:19b): With the sounding of the 7th trumpet and the beginning of the Tribulation's final phase, the "Great Tribulation", there will occur a series of signs of unmistakably divine origin which serve to punctuate the significance of the opening of this final phase of Satan's rule on earth and its impending replacement by the millennial Kingdom of the Messiah. These signs are almost identical to those which heralded the beginning of the Tribulation proper (as we saw in our treatment of Revelation 8:5) as well as to those which will signal the imminence of Christ's return on the eve of the battle of Armageddon (Rev.16:18). But while each of these three sets of heavenly signs includes thunder and lightning and a worldwide earthquake, there is an intensification factor as the end approaches. Here, on the threshold of the Great Tribulation proper, we see the addition of a worldwide hailstorm of powerful effect (Rev.11:19. Prior to Armageddon, the earthquake which occurs is of previously unprecedented magnitude, while the hail becomes even more massive in its size and devastating in its effects (Rev.16:18-21). The thunder, lightning, earthquake and hail which here give notice of the arrival of the Great Tribulation will serve notice worldwide to everyone on earth – both for those who care to take warning and the majority of humanity remaining under the sway of the beast who do not – that the terrible time of testing has now arrived.

The reason for the occurrence of these events in the middle of the Tribulation is, as was the case with the trumpet judgments just concluded, to provide a significant warning to mankind of the impending Great Tribulation, the time, which as our Lord said, will be "such as has never occurred from the beginning of the world until now, and [such as] will never again occur thereafter" (Matt.24:21; cf. Jer.30:7).

The chronology of Revelation and of the specific events of the end times is no easy thing to construct correctly. The difficulties in "pinning it down" precisely are shared in common with all attempts. The solution offered in these studies has the virtue of taking the book of Revelation as meant to be understood and presented in an understandable way, and also accords with the other scriptures throughout the Bible which supply information about the end times. Clearly, it is not going to satisfy everyone. But I am confident that the picture presented here squares with all of the biblical information -- a confidence I do not have in any other chronology I have seen.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #8: 


Hopefully, you won't get mad at me for saying so. There is no way that my little brain can process all the information that you have given. When trying to figure out the order of events of Revelation, I try to connect the dots by looking at the beginning and endings of subjects, or else compare events with each other.  Take for instants the gathering of the saints, or church. It says that we will be changed at the last trump, 1 Corinth. 15:52. Therefore, we will be raptured at the last trump. While this is a debate in it's self, I believe it is the 7th trumpet of Rev. Now the question, what takes place when we are raptured? The day of the Lord can start, Joel 2:31, / Thy wrath is come, 11:18. The dead in Christ rise first/ Rev. 11:18, The dead are judged We are changed to a spiritual body, we meet the Lord in the air, we are given our rewards that Jesus has with him, 11:18. Jesus will judge the nations/ Jesus comes to destroy those who are destroying the earth, 11:18.

The rapture comes after the very last second of the tribulation. There is no way that the events that take place in verse 18 can take place at the middle of the tribulation. You are trying to fit the 7th trumpet in a place it doesn't belong. There is no reason to forecast the events of the 7th trumpet at the middle of the tribulation period, as you imply.  What most would get from reading Rev. 11:15-18, is that WHEN the trumpet blows, those events of verse 18 take place right then, not 3 1/2 years later.

End of tribulation.

Jesus gathers church.

Judgement seat of Christ.

Rewards given.

Day of Lord starts.

Vials poured out.

Jesus comes and destroys those who are destroying the earth.

ALL of the above takes place in a small amount of time.

Another connecting of dots.

Rev. 17:8. The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is connected with Satan being thrown out of heaven at the mid-point of the trib. The pit is not opened until the 5th trumpet, so the 5th trumpet will sound at the mid-point of the trib. leaving the 6th and 7th to sound, and the 7th will sound at the very end of the trib. Very simple.


God bless,

Response #8:

"Connecting the dots" is exactly what I have been doing. And the test of whether or not the dots have been correctly connected is the overall picture one is viewing once the lines are drawn, both in terms of general workability and of course in its consonance with all other scripture.

I certainly agree with you that the resurrection of the Church takes place at the end of the Tribulation. But I would disagree that the seventh trumpet is the "last trumpet" of 1Cor.15:52. I take that trumpet to be the command for the dead in Christ to rise (which is not a warning, and is not a part of a series of warnings). Also, this sounding of the trumpet when described in 1Thes.4:16 is accompanied by the archangel's shout and the Lord's command, neither of which is reported in connection with the seventh trumpet. The seventh trumpet is a "woe", while the trumpet of resurrection is the most wonderful thing to happen since our Lord's birth, ministry, death for us on the cross, and resurrection. Also no mention of resurrection in Revelation 11:15ff. Instead, following its sounding, we have the persecution of believing Israel in chap. 12 and the rise of the beast in chap.13 (along with the Great Persecution, the signature event of the Great Tribulation). So I wouldn't at all agree that it is natural to see the end of chapter eleven as the end of everything and the rest of the book of Revelation as a flash-back. I've never read it that way and know of no others who have. That doesn't mean it couldn't be the case, of course, but I am confident that seeing the seventh trumpet as the opening of the Great Tribulation leads to many other things falling into place that would otherwise be quite confusing (i.e., it connects the dots).

To return to Joel 2:31, key to that passage is that all of the signature events described happen before the Day -- not on the day per se but intimately connected with it nonetheless. That means that all of the tribulational events happen over an unspecified amount of time from Joel's point of view, and it is, as I have shown in CT 1, a common prophetic device to encapsulate the end-times in a single panoramic glance. Today, with the benefit of Revelation and all of the information in the gospels and the Pauline epistles, et al., we are able and are meant to reconstruct the entire time line. Consider that the Great Apostasy and the revelation of the beast precede the Day per se:

So we ask you, brothers, in regard to the coming our Lord Jesus Christ [discussed in chapter one, verses 3-12], and our assembling together to Him [in resurrection at His return (cf. 1Cor.15:51-54)], that you not be so easily moved from your correct understanding [of these matters], nor disturbed [by doubts about what you should know to be true] -- not even if [this "new information" purports to come] through a spirit, or an [inspired] word or a letter supposedly from me, declaring that the Day of the Lord is already upon us. Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For [the 2nd Advent cannot come] unless the Apostasy [the great falling away of the faithful in the first half of the Tribulation] has already occurred, and the man of lawlessness [antichrist] has been revealed [an event also occurring in the Tribulation], that "son of destruction" (i.e., characterized by, author of, and doomed to destruction), the one who will oppose and exalt himself against every so-called god and object of worship to such a degree that he will take his seat in the temple of God and represent himself as being God. Don't you remember that while I was still with you I was explaining these things to you?
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-5

The Tribulation and Great Tribulation last collectively seven years for a reason: it is a time of intense testing that will demonstrate the true depravity of the devil, his minions, and the human race apart from God -- as well as the power of faith and God's faithfulness in this crucible of crucibles. It doesn't all happen in an instant, so that by the time the blessed "instantaneous" resurrection of the Church does take place, for those still alive in the Lord it will be all the more blessed.

As to the pit being opened at the fifth trumpet, you lost me on the significance of that. God can open and close it at any time. In any case, the rising of the beast from the Abyss is symbolic (as antichrist is already on earth at this point and does not literally come out of the Abyss anymore than revived Rome does -- they both seem to come back from the dead -- that's the point of the symbol), whereas the demon hoards that comes out of the Abyss in the fifth and sixth trumpet warning judgments are quite literal.

In our Lord,

Bob L.

Question #9: 

So you are saying that the demons that come out of the pit are literal, and the beast of Rev. 17:8 that is to come out of the pit is not.  And who is the king of the bottomless pit?

Does he come out also?

God bless,

Response #9: 

The demons are literal, the pit is literal, antichrist is literal. The description of the beast coming out of the pit is an allegory just like the woman and the dragon. After all, the "beast" is not actually a seven-headed monster, but a man (at least on his mother's side) -- a.k.a. antichrist. Alternatively, the "beast" is also an empire, antichrist's empire (and still not an actual monster). The beast's "death" is only apparent (Satan cannot actually raise the dead; antichrist will appear to die, appear to be "resurrected; and this apparent "rising from the dead/Abyss will convince many to follow him). So rising from the place of death is symbolic of the beast's apparent resurrection (and of the Roman empire's reconstitution), both of which events concern antichrist and both of which will amaze the world.

Here is what I have written about Abaddon:

While it is true that Abaddon-Apollyon is called a "king" here, it is probable that his rank in the hierarchy of fallen angels is that of "prince", the demon equivalent of archangel. The Hebrew word for this rank, sar, is translated at least once in the Septuagint as "king"or basileus (the Greek word in context here). Significantly, this commander is also called "the angel of the Abyss", though we know from our context and other passages (e.g., Jude 6 and 2Pet.2:4), that there are many angels in the Abyss. In the one other scripture where "angel" means more than just some generic angel, 1st Peter 3:22, the phrasing is indeed shorthand for "arch-angel". See Bible Basics: Part 2A: Angelology, section II.9.6.3, "Princes".

So he is high ranking; he is "the angel of the Abyss".  Revelation does not actually call him  "the king of the Abyss" -- it merely says that these demons have a "king", and this "angel of the Abyss" should be understood as "Satan's [arch]-angel [commander] in the Abyss", the highest ranking of his lieutenants currently incarcerated therein.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #10: 

You said:

"Also, this sounding of the trumpet when described in 1Thes.4:16 is accompanied by the archangel's shout and the Lord's command, neither of which is reported in connection with the seventh trumpet."

My question: Isn't the coming of Matthew 24:30,31, 1 Thess. 4:16, and Rev 19:11 all the same comings?  There is no mention of the Lord's command, and the archangel's shout in Rev 19:11 either.  Matthew's description of the Lord's coming, doesn't have to exactly compare to Paul's, or to the description in John's writing in Rev. 19:11. The gist of the event is what matters. 11:18 is a description of what takes place at the rapture. The 6 warning trumpets blow, [ over a period of time ] THEN mercy is over, and the 7th trumpet blows, Judgement comes after church is lifted up, in the 7 vials, and Jesus comes with church to smite the kings of the earth, and to set up the kingdom.  "Thy wrath is come" means the tribulation is over, and the day of the Lord starts.

God bless,

Response #10: 

Passages which  speak about the return of Christ and which are focused on that event need not also include all of the other important events which are immediately connected with it.  That is to say, the absence of a reference is not dispositive.  On the other hand, the presence of events which cannot be reconciled with a particular interpretation are crucial, and that is where the attempt to link up the seventh trumpet with the return of Christ (rather than with the beginning of the final three and a half years) falls to the ground (as explained in the previous e-mail).  In addition to requiring a jarring pulling of the book of Revelation inside out (as explained previously, it is much preferable to understand it as progressing in what is essentially a linear chronological order), I can't think of any scripture which would support such a lengthy gap between the resurrection and the second advent such as that schema requires.

With all due deference, the time-line provided in the Coming Tribulation series meshes with the scriptures much better, not requiring so many clearly separate events to be nearly simultaneous on the one hand, then a long delay on the other, one which is contrary to everything else scripture has to say about the resurrection and the Lord's return (these two events are indeed nearly simultaneous). It is not surprising to me that there is no mention of these other factors in Rev.19:11, because there is no mention of the resurrection in that verse/immediate context. Clearly it has happened, but it is not the main subject at hand (rather our Lord's return is the focus -- same with the other passages you mention). But if the subject is the resurrection and the trumpet blast is mentioned, then the point about the shout of command and the archangel's voice being absent are telling. Also, it still remains to reconcile the context of judgment with the resurrection, which I see as impossible. And it is unclear to me how you feel that the resurrection can come before the Day. This is of course what pre-Trib folks think, but I see no scriptural justification whatsoever for splitting Jesus' return from our gathering together with Him.

By the time we get to Revelation 19:11, the seventh trumpet is more than half the book of Revelation away by now. One would think that, given the emphasis these trumpets and especially the seventh trumpet receive earlier, if your analysis were correct, there would be some mention of it here somewhere when these events take place which indisputably are the end of the Tribulation and the return of our Lord.

In our Lord,

Bob L.

Question #11: 

You wrote:

The seventh trumpet is a "woe", while the trumpet of resurrection is the most wonderful thing to happen since our Lord's birth, ministry, death for us on the cross, and resurrection.

The seventh trumpet is a woe to the earth, but to the church it is a blessing. The same with the spirit of God. The same spirit that changes Christians to glorified bodies, will at the same time burn up the ungodly, 2 Thess. 2:8.

God bless,

Response #11: 

On this, it is not that things that are "woes" to the earth cannot be blessing to believers -- clearly they can. It is rather that the two things are not the same in any respect. Resurrection and temporal judgment are as different as two things can be; they are categorically different (not just a matter of the same thing being viewed/experienced differently by different groups).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #12: 


I see events in Revelation being mentioned over and over again.  Matthew 24:29 shows the 6th seal, and the coming of Jesus. There is a sound of a trumpet. Rev. 6:12 shows the 6th seal, and the signs of Matthew 24:29, and Joel 2:31 are seen. Men are seen running to hide from Jesus. In Matthew, the tribes mourn. In Rev. 6, they run to hide. Reason? the great day of his wrath [ day of  the Lord ] is come. Is there a rapture in Rev. chapter 6? Not shown, but we are shown a great multitude in heaven right after, in 7:9. This is the rapture of the church. The rapture and the day of the Lord happen at the same time. Next, we have a vision John saw in heaven. John saw those that had gotten victory over the beast, image, and mark. They were standing on a sea of glass, having the harps of God. Here again, we are seeing the church in heaven. And, this is just BEFORE the wrath of God is poured out, Rev. 16. The wrath is poured out during the day of the Lord time period. In Rev. 14, we see the actual gathering of the church, verses 14-16, which is shown in heaven on the sea of glass above. We also see the harvest of the ungodly, verses 17-20, which coincides with 19:11-21. We even have a scene of the church in heaven, Rev. 20:4, and this is after Jesus comes to gather it, in Rev. 19:11. Do you not see the rapture being shown several times throughout Revelation? This is why I can see the 7th trumpet being the rapture, and taking place at the same time as the 6th seal.

God bless,

Response #12:

1) Events are sometimes repeated in Revelation, but not willy-nilly -- they follow a system. The seals give an overview of the Tribulation. The Tribulation begins when the seventh seal is opened. The trumpets warn of the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation begins when the seventh trumpet sounds. The bowls warn of the Day of Christ's return and the judgment attending thereto. The events of Joel 2:31 et al. begin when seventh bowl is poured out and the Lord returns at the end of the six month period it encompasses.

2) Matthew 24:29 is of course the same as Joel 2:31 et al. It is equivalent to the sixth seal which gives the preview of the final events of the Tribulation. There is a trumpet -- the same trumpet of 1Thes.4:16 and 1Cor.15:52, the trumpet call which is directed towards believers and resurrection, the trumpet call which ends the Great Tribulation. This is not the seventh trumpet which is part of a series of trumpet calls directed towards unbelievers which warn of the beginning of the Great Tribulation. This is foreshadowed in the Jewish system of festivals, wherein the Feast of Trumpets is the first of the three festivals of eschatological significance. Beyond all argument the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles, the last of the three, represents the Millennium and the Messiah's reign with Israel regathered in the land -- and these trumpets are not the only trumpets in the cycle of festivals (cf.  Is.27:13 where a trumpet used for the re-gathering of Israel into the land, an event represented by the feast ofTabernacles). The timing of the middle festival, the Day of Atonement, is also highly significant. It occurs seven days after Trumpets and three and a half days before Booths/Tabernacles. Thus it stands between multiple trumpet blasts at the front, and with the celebration of Messiah at the end (cf. Lev.25:9). The Day of Atonement's symbolism represents the Great Tribulation whose three and a half years are foreshadowed by the three and a half days between it and the beginning of the millennial festival. The fact that Trumpets is celebrated with multiple trumpet blasts at the beginning of the eschatological cycle and is followed by a seven day interval before the beginning of the festival which symbolizes the Great Tribulation shows very clearly that the trumpets precede the Great Tribulation as warnings of what is to come. Trumpets generally were sounded over the offerings during all of the festivals, so any "last trumpet" would have to come during the last festival of the cycle, namely, Booths/Tabernacles, and would thus represent the return of Messiah and our gathering together with Him in resurrection (cf. Num.10:10). But clearly, the one place in the cycle where multiple trumpets are emphasized is the Feast of Trumpets, the festival which begins the symbolism of the end of history before Messiah's return, not the Great Tribulation in the Middle (the Day of Atonement) or the return and celebration of the return itself (Booths/Tabernacles). You can find out much more about this at the following link: The Jewish Ceremonial Calendar (in SR #5)

3) I have directed you to my treatment of the seals a number of times now (link: The Seven Seals [in CT #2B). As I have said and say again, we have no argument here, except that the book is not opened until the seals are broken, so that the seals are previews of the contents (like an illustrated book cover), while the events which follow in Revelation after the seals are opened are actually depicted as happening in more or less sequential order.

4) The depictions of the martyrs in Rev.7 previewed in Rev.6 the fifth seal are not believers resurrected but believers in an interim state, the same interim state in which all who have so far departed to be with the Lord now find themselves. It is by all accounts a blessed existence, but it is not the same (or as blessed) as resurrection will be. The resurrection will not occur until the Lord returns. He will return to earth, not linger in heaven. We will be resurrected "in clouds" in the sky above the earth, not in heaven, and will immediately return with Him to earth, not heaven, to reign with Him for the 1,000 years on earth, not in heaven. Please see the following link for the interim state: Our Heavenly, Pre-Resurrection, Interim State.

5) Revelation 14 is not a picture of the resurrection either. The 144,000 are also in interim state, having become the "first fruits" or the Great Persecution, the major theme of the Great Tribulation (and primarily why it is so named). This is clear from the entire description but even more clear from the end of chapter 14 where we find the "harvest of the earth" (the martyrdom of one third of remaining believers in the Great Persecution following in the footsteps of the 144,000 -- harvesting is for the good: cf. Matt.13:24ff.), followed by the "vintage of the earth" (trampling the vintage is for the wicked: Is.63:1ff.), the judgment of unbelievers forecast, primarily Armageddon where the blood will cover the entire land of Israel centered on Jerusalem. See in CT #4: The Great Persecution for details and exegesis of this chapter.

6) I agree with you on Rev.20:4. But note that this comes at the end of the book, exactly where we should expect to find a treatment of the resurrection if the book proceeds in the manner that we have every prior expectation that it should proceed, that is, in a roughly sequential manner from the beginning of the Tribulation to the end.

The book of Revelation is very much concerned with the Great Persecution, an important event about which believers need to be well-informed. The major trend of the first half of the Tribulation from the believer's perspective is the Great Apostasy (cf. 2Thes.2:3) where many will fall away from Christ, while the major trend of the second is the Great Persecution where many of us will be called upon to give up our lives for the Lord. We have been given this book in order to understand and prepare for all these things ahead of time, so getting them right is of the utmost importance. That is what I have been trying to do.

Once again, I would like to stress that short e-mails such as this can do little more than point the way to the more time-consuming task of digesting the major studies at Ichthys which detail these events. I certainly would not dare to assume that what I have shared with you here and previously is sufficient to convince you that this would beneficial to you, but I do believe that by now you have more than enough information to make a reasonable decision on that score.

In our Lord -- Marana Tha!

Bob L.

Question #13:

Thanks for your time, but no matter how much you write trying to explain what you believe, I do not see it that way. Sorry, but the sixth seal comes after the tribulation is over, according to Matthew 24:29.

Thanks again for your time,

God bless,

Response #13:

You are very welcome.  I certainly agree with your statement here (as I have said all along).

"The sixth seal represents the Second Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ, along with all the events which accompany that glorious day (the battle of Armageddon in particular)." (CT 2B, section IV.6)

Best wishes in Christ,

Bob L.


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