Exorcism, Endings of Mark 16, Spiritual Gifts, Baptisms, and more
Question #1:
Matthew 7:21-22 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

From the bible we learnt that the seven sons of sceva could not cast out demons.

Acts 19:13-16 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

The answer lies in the verse below

Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

As long as one is not against Christ he can cast out demons in his name.

A non believer can not cast out a demon but satan can decieve a non christian into thinking he is casting out a demon in the name of Jesus Just to continue his unrighteous works.

False prophets and false miracle workers through the empowerment of the devil could seem to cast out a devil but in reality the devil is only deceiving ungodly people into error and false teachings thinking they have the backing of God in their works of unrighteousness.

Response #1:
Hello ______.

I think that your second post has it right.

I will add that the Lord Jesus did not say that anyone actually cast out demons in His Name. He said that some people will claim to have done so, in order to claim some association with Him.

Suffice to say that ever since the completion of the Bible, no human being has had the authority to drive demons out of a physical body. It was one of those signs that were necessary to establish the authority of those who were bringing new revelation to the Church. That is, the ability to exorcise evil spirits was one of those "badges of authority" that the Lord gave to the believers of the apostolic age so that their message could be accepted by anyone with a heart for the Truth. They were carrying new revelations not found in the Old Testament, so it was necessary that God give them something to demonstrate that they were really His Emissaries.

Once the New Testament was completed, therefore, the abilities were removed so that we could focus on their Message rather than on the signs of authority that God gave them. So, even being a believer today does not mean that we can exorcise evil spirits, no. We cannot. If anyone is troubled with demon possession, the only way to help such a person is to give them the Gospel, if they are willing to hear it, and pray for them. It is important to keep in mind that demons can only enter a human body with the human being's consent, so it is the one who has an evil spirit who must be willing to lose it in order for the Lord to remove it from them.

Clearly, if a believer has no authority today to engage evil spirits directly, an unbeliever has no chance at all.

As for what Matthew 7:21-22 teaches, it is only that it is possible to deceive oneself into thinking that the Lord Jesus will accept one into His Kingdom when one has never believed in Him here on earth. There are lots of people who are thinking that they are doing all sorts of things for the Lord right now, although they don't care about the Gospel at all. One spoke to you on this thread too. You will also find multitude "pastors" and "prophets" and "apostles" and "bishops" who fancy themselves "anointed exorcists" (they are so popular that it is impossible that you haven't heard about them) who do not even know the Gospel. They are the sort of people that the Lord Jesus was speaking of. They are unbelievers who are fooling themselves with fanciful ideas of miraculous power. They do not cast out demons of any sort. They do not do any true miracles of any sort. They are full of tricks and lies, deceiving and being deceived. When they stand before the Lord at the Judgment of the Great White Throne, they will receive in themselves the just reward of their wickedness.

Question #2:
That depends on what you mean by "demons". I know a person currently seeking to have bet9ja demon driven out of him.

Response #2:
**No response**

Question #3:
succinct! You know people usually think that because those workers of iniquity said they cast out demons in the name of Jesus meant they were really saved in the first place ignoring the fact that Jesus said he never knew them. Jesus never ever denies his sheep, he said he knows his sheep and his sheep knows him.

Response #3:
I actually had a long conversation with another believer with respect to this yesterday. John MacArthur used that verse to teach that some believers will end up in the Lake of Fire. That, of course, is a major reason that I dislike that man's ministry. John 3:18 is not confusing at all. Only those who believe will be saved. Only those who don't are condemned. It has nothing to do with casting out demons.

The point that our Lord was making in that passage was that if you don't believe in Him, you cannot be saved, no matter what other qualification you are persuaded that you can present before Him at the Judgment of the Great White Throne.

Question #4:
Guys you must understand that the ability to cast out demons is not restricted to just the Holy Spirit. Even Lucifer can give the power to cast out demons in the guise that it was done in the name of Jesus Christ.

It is in this same context which the Antichrist will rise up and will be mistaken for the Christ himself because he will possess most if not all the attributes of the God man, he will rule Zion and much of the unbelieving faithless world will be deceived and they will follow after him.
But of course, don't we all know how this will end.

Response #4:
Sorry, ______, but where do you see in the Bible that Satan is able to give anyone power to cast out demons?

This is what I read in the Bible:

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
(KJV) Matthew 12:24-26

Question #5:
well, ______ the witch of Endor wasnt a scammer atleast the bible never said so. Demon spirit recognise the truth, for example they knew who Jesus was and called him so until Jesus silence them, in the same vein, they must have know that God had rejected saul and only rebroadcasted what samuel said when he was alive which saul already knew.

Response #5:
Actually, the medium of Endor was a con-woman. Everyone who claims any ability to contact the dead is playing a con. No one can contact or bring up the dead except the Lord Himself. Not even Satan can mess with Sheol. In fact, all rebel angels are afraid of the Abyss, which is a part of Sheol. We are told in the Bible that they maintain influence over the earth and hold spheres of authority in the heavens (that is, the twin heavens of the atmosphere and outer space, the shamayim), not that they have anything to do with Sheol. The only angels who deal with Sheol are elect angels. They are the ones who take the dead to their allotted places in death: to Torments in Sheol for unbelievers, and, previously, to Paradise in Sheol for believers, and now to the Third Heaven for believers. They are also the ones who consign rebel angels who violate any of the ground rules of this warfare in the Abyss.

The spirit that came up in 1 Samuel 28 is actually identified, not by the medium or by Saul, but by the Bible itself as Samuel. So, it is quite clear that this was really the Lord overriding a seance in order to punish Saul. Consider that Samuel had no good news for Saul when he came, except to tell him that he would be in Paradise with his sons when he died.

Question #6:
Jesus was making an argument, it doesn't in anyway dispute Lucifer's abilities to deceive. I certainly did not also mean it in such a way that the devil deliberately possesses a person with his demons and then looks for someone to cast them out like a theatrical play.

That said, this is the next verse sir:

Matthew 12:27 New International Version (NIV)
27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.

If the Pharisees who believed not, also had the ability to cast out demons, by whom did they appear to do it sir?
Certainly not within workings of the Holy Spirit, don't you think?

Response #6:
First of all, the Lord Jesus only ever speaks the Truth. If He said that Satan cannot cast out Satan without destroying his kingdom, then take that to mean exactly what it says. The Lord never offered hypotheticals.

Regarding Matthew 12:27, the Lord was showing up their hypocrisy. They claimed that their own disciples were casting out demons. If they did, then why were they accusing Him of doing so using Satan's power? Obviously, their disciples had no such power and were doing no such thing. They were not even believers. Only our Lord and those He empowered were doing it. But if they believed that they were, then it was hypocritical of them to accuse the Lord of working for Satan.

Question #7:
I think you are missing the point, she didnt say satan can indeed cast out satan but he only appear to do so, so as to decieve the gullible.
False prophets decieve by lying signs and wonders.
When Jesus cast out demons, the people from whom Jesus cast out these demons were truly free.

Response #7:
I agree. I have also reread her post, and you may be right about what she is saying. I was concerned only with any notion that it is possible that anyone can cast out demons using Satan's power. It doesn't work that way at all. Satan does have an organized kingdom, and the rebel angels do work together. Having the ability to take possession of physical bodies at will was the selling point for joining Satan's rebellion in the first place, so it is unlikely that any of them would leave a physical body without a fight. In fact, we are told by the Lord that when a demon is cast out, it eventually goes back to see if it can still return. If it can, it doesn't do so alone. It goes and gets reinforcements to make it harder for it to be expelled next time.

You are both right that Satan and his minions do put up appearances to sell all kinds of lies. Perhaps they also do that to pretend that exorcism is really happening when it isn't at all. But that too is why I want to make sure that we understand what that part of the Bible teaches. If we understand it, then even the appearances will not deceive us. And, just as she said, the Antichrist and the multitude false prophets and false christs of the Tribulation will play this game even more effectively than they are doing now, so understanding what the Bible teaches about it will keep us safe from those lies when we run into them then.

Question #8:
yes of course. Btw I dont believe we believers will partake of the tribulation because the tribulation will be a time for Jacob's trouble not the church. When God has taken away the church, then Daniel last week from the 70 weeks will be fulfilled.The second coming of Christ is in two phase, first the rapture then followed by the physical appearance for all the world to see him. The church is told to expect the coming of Christ to be at any time but the physical appearance of Christ on earth is after the coming of the antichrist (a seven year reign on the earth)

Response #8:
I think that we already touched this a little bit. If you are up for it, I would be happy to discuss it again more comprehensively. As always, the aim is not to force a doctrine on you. I only want us to look at the Bible together and establish what it actually says.

Question #9:
True. But if you know the shining light of His presence, you will know that no one can lie lie before Him but only learn. He himself never denied their claims but condemned their persons based on another indictment.

Please read Mk 16:17-18 , Jn 14:12, 1Cor 12:7,9,10, 1Cor 12:31, 1Cor 14:1, Eph 6:12 and stop spreading these deusions of demons that shortchange believers and keep men bound. Believers will always have this right from God and all may be empowered by the Spirit

While there are many fake exorcists who actually never cast out demons from people but do a make-believe, it doesn't take anything away from those empowered by the Lord Jesus just as fake mints don't take any thing away from the real

Response #9:
Hello.

This response is only to defend what I have said by addressing legitimate challenges to it in your post. Again, it is not to persuade you to believe what I do. You are free to believe whatever you want. The rewards and consequences of your exercise of the freedom of your will lie with the Lord, not with me. So, if you disagree with me, it is fine by me that you do. I still stand by what I say. I will not change my position to please you, and, as I have said, I don't require that you change yours to please me.

1. Mark 16 ends in verse 8. Everything after that in that chapter is not part of the Bible. It is a gloss, that is, an addition written in by a scribe who was copying the manuscript.

2. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(KJV) John 14:12

This Scripture is explained by the following Scriptures:

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
(KJV) Luke 15:7

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
(KJV) Matthew 16:19

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins...
(KJV) Colossians 1:12-14

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost...
(KJV) Matthew 28:19

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
(KJV) 2 Peter 1:3-4

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
(KJV) Daniel 12:3

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(KJV) John 3:16

The above means that there is nothing more important or of greater value to God than the repentance of the sinner. For that He gave His One Unique Son in order for the sinner to be saved. Then we were given the Gospel to take to the world so that through it any sinner who wishes it can be reconciled to God. That is, there is no greater work than the teaching of the Gospel to bring in unbelievers to the Body of Christ and build them up to full spiritual maturity.

3. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues...
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 12:7,9-10

The following Scriptures frame the above Scripture:

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:12

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:26

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

​1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...
(KJV) Hebrews 1:1-2

​1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 ( For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
(KJV) 1 John 1:1-4

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when[b] we made known unto you[/b] the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty...19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(KJV) 2 Peter 1:16,19-21

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
(KJV) Jude 1:20-21

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:11-16

That is, the gifts that are given in the Church are for "edification," that is, for building up the Church, both in terms of adding new believers to the Church through the work of the evangelist and in terms of helping each other grow to spiritual maturity through the teaching of the Truth. The gifts are not given for their own sake. They are given for provision of the Truth to the Church. For that reason, Paul told the Corinthians that some gifts would not last in the Church. They would be removed eventually when "that which is perfect is come." That was the complete Bible. Now that the Scriptures have been completed and we all have access to it, only those gifts that open the Truth up to us are really "chief" in the Church. All other gifts are given to aid those ones. So, the evangelist uses the Bible to open the door of Salvation to unbelievers, and the pastor-teacher uses the Bible to feed those who come through that door, so that we all grow up to the maturity defined by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The evangelist and the pastor-teacher do not need to use miracles anymore to demonstrate that what they are saying is true: the Bible is the witness to their message (Acts 17:11). This is why Paul told the Corinthians to cease from childhood (1 Corinthians 14:20; compare 1 Corinthians 13:11). It is spiritual childishness to get hung up on learning aids instead of the learning itself. The knowledge of the Lord Jesus is what we are to gain. Miracles do not give it to us. Only diligent tutelage in the Truth does. So, the Lord Himself removed the props and supports after the Bible was completed (Hebrews 1:2) so that we can focus on the Truth.

4. 1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:1

At the time of Paul's writing of this verse, the Bible had not yet been completed. Prophecy was still the way through which the revelation of God's Truth was brought to believers. There was much that the Lord had to say that had not been said, so there were believers in the Church whom the Lord used to bring that through. As you can see from 1 Corinthians 13:8, even prophecy was scheduled by the Lord to cease when the Bible was finally completed. Prophecy is how the Scriptures were written and completed. Now that they have been, there is no new revelation coming from the Lord, so prophecy has ceased.

5. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(KJV) Ephesians 6:12

The above Scripture is framed by the following Scriptures:

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 ( For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; ) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ...
(KJV) 2 Corinthians 10:3-5

4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
(KJV) 2 Corinthians 6:4-10

That is, the way we fight against the evil spirits is through spiritual growth, progress, and ministry of the Truth. Compare the context of the Ephesians 6:12 that includes "pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests...and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18).

Conclusion: None of these Scriptures teach in any way that we have any business trying to cast out demons from people.

As I said before, you are free to believe whatever you like. I don't begrudge you that right. How you exercise it is between you and the Lord. If you don't agree with what I have said, feel free to discard it. But it would be a waste of your time and energy to demand that I discard it too just because you disapprove in some way. I am not responsible to you. I am responsible to the Lord, just as you are.

Question #10:
Can someone explain to this individual that "Feed my lambs" does not mean "Give them grass".

John 21:15 King James Version (KJV)
15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Response #10:
**No response**

Question #11:
I viewed the post and I thought i responded. Apologies!
Most of the time, I'm multi-tasking while making contributions on the forum.

In view of the quote you shared, i particularly love the bit about doing well to avoid falling into the trap of trying to solve the puzzles in the Word of God. Personally, faith in the cross is all I need.

Christ the source, the cross the means - everything else is just education 

Response #11:
With all due respect to your right to choose your attitudes and actions in your life, I am quite disappointed by the above. Your enthusiastic response to ichthys.com heartened me and gave me some hope that you would join the ranks of believers zealously growing in the Truth in order to become able to help others to do the same. In fact, the Truth, the whole realm of biblical Truth is what the Cross opened up to us. In other words, the purpose of the Cross was to open up the whole Truth of the Bible to us, so that we can believe it and help others to believe it, thereby honoring God Who gave the Lord Jesus Christ to die for us, the Lord Jesus Who paid such a hefty price to bring us to salvation, and the Holy Spirit Who empowered that Sacrifice. So, treating spiritual growth as "just education" is a most unfortunate thing to do. Nonetheless, it is your right to do as you choose. It is you yourself who will answer to the Lord for your choices, not I or anyone else, so I do not say these things presuming to be able to make your choices for you.

Question #12:
It's most def in the DNA of the kingdom of darkness.

Lol @ no honor among thieves. This was good 

Response #12:
The Scriptures are very clear that Satan's kingdom is organized, even if not perfect. The cinematic representation of spiritual realities by which not a few people today appear to judge the Scriptures is never reliable.

There is no such thing as Satan casting out Satan. No evil spirit ever expels another, not even if they are stronger in power than them. That would actually defeat the purpose of Satan's kingdom. Possession of a human body can lead to some limitation of the free will (compare Mark 5:15; 9:18, for example) for human beings. Satan is very okay with this. All his kingdom is, in fact. As long as human beings can avoid making a deliberate choice to believe in the Lord, he feels that he is winning. The reason is that we were created to provide a replacement for him and his fellow rebels in the Family of God. If we cannot replace them, then the sentence of destruction passed upon them cannot be carried out.

It is a romantic idea that people have that Satan runs a kingdom that will come apart under some small stress, but that is not what the Scriptures teach at all. He plays humans off against each other and treats unbelievers and even foolish believers sometimes as allies, it is true, but he is not at all interested in human beings for our own good. His comrades are not human beings, they are the angels that chose to join him in his rebellion.

This would take a lot to explain, but then it doesn't seem to me like you want to hear it, and there is no occasion for going that deep into something whose surface is already quite clear, at least enough for anyone who loves the Truth to take the trouble of learning the rest of it from the right source.

Question #13:
She never knew her visitor was King Saul until she performed her 'con' and saw the answering spirit who spoke through her and gave a prophecy that came to pass.

The question then is ..... Do you really understand what a con is?

Response #13:
**No response**

Question #14:
Kindly let me borrow this.

Response #14:
I don't know what that means. Are you quoting my words back at me? Because if you are, you are in the wrong conversation. You have been hounding me for a while chastising me for not obeying you and abandoning what I teach. So you cannot truly be telling me that I am free to believe and teach what I please, when you yourself have been doing your best to stop me from doing so.

Question #15:
Its absurd to even believe this for its abrupt ending in v8. Second your claim is unfounded and derived from those who could not believe in the power of faith demonstrated through themselves and would rather tamper with scripture. You shortchange yourself if you accept this

Response #15:
1. An abrupt end is not necessarily the absence of an end, is it? Is the Lord obliged to provide the end that you want?

2. What "unfounded" my claim?

3. How did you know where I derive my claim from? Are you a diviner?

4. How do you know that I shortchange myself for accepting this?

Question #16:
Not so. The works He did were the signs recorded in John's gospel which did not involve converting men to Christ. Let us first do these works as He said before even defining the greater works for contention sake. Although converting a sinner is more important than just working the miraculous, it was clearly never in the context and does not take away the need for the miraculous.

Consider the insight of Peter the miracle worker..His name through faith in His name has made this man walk..Acts 3:8 and 2Pet1:1...to them who have received like precious faith...

And furthermore the Lord's- whatever you ask in my name, that will be done(Jn 16:23-24) and as well Mk 9:23... ALL things.. and Mk 11:22-24 too.

This name has not been taken away from us nor our faith in it.

Response #16:
Not bothering to respond to this again. I already gave an answer to it.

Question #17:
That which is perfect is not and can never be the bible though it is the true record of the sacred utterances of God. It is however full of translation errors and other human errors because carnal men translated it just as we both have different views, anyone translating could get it muddied through his lens. Even if there ever could be a perfect translation, God has always wanted to move us from laws written on external platforms to a law written in our hearts by His Spirit-the true new covenant. (Heb 8:10-11, Jn 4:23, 2Cor3:3, both showing that the bible is not God's perfect but the work of the Spirit). Rather the Spirit was given to us to teach us all things (1Cor 2:10-13, Jn 14:26), and remains the only one into whose custody the Lord left us, never the bible(Jn 16:7,13). As God, He comes first before the bible and is sufficient with or without the bible. The perfect here is perfect Love or the Reign of Love, which is why love never ceases, when all these cease. It is the point when the love of God deposited in us reaches its fullness,tipping point and overcomes all imperfections. That happens when we become a perfect man as in Eph 4:13 and put away all childish things and we know FULLY as we are known(no more in part as we ALL do now, even Paul said he only knew in part NOW which is also why I told you even as a minster you must be humble to keep on learning), only in the coming reign of Love will the manifestations of the spirit become unnecessary because we will see face to face. For now that we still ALL see through a vague glass being imperfect, they are necessary for the profit (joint edification in greek) and teaching of all.(1Cor 12:7).
As a matter of fact, inasmuch as i am an avid lover of scripture, finding hardly any loving it more, even scripture is relevant only till this perfect day of the reign of love when Christ rises fully in us.
...We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts(2Pet 1:19)

In other words [b]both scripture and the manifestations Paul spoke of [/b]will give way at the same time and to the same cause.

Response #17:
1. "Perfect" is the translation used there for a Greek word that can mean "mature," "perfect," or "complete." The meaning then can be one or more or all of them. In this case, it means both "perfect" as we normally use the word and "complete." The revelation that the Lord was providing for mankind was only made complete through the apostolic writings that are the New Testament. Of course there is much that the Bible does not say that we will still learn in Resurrection, but for the purposes of making a free will choice to lovingly submit to the Lord or remain in rebellion against Him while we are still in this mortal body, the Scriptures were given to us. Before the Cross, only limited revelations were provided to believing mankind, according to God's Plan. Even before Moses it was the same, with prophets like Noah and Abraham giving only small snapshots of what the Lord had to say to mankind. With the Coming of the Lord Jesus and His Victory by the Cross, the full revelation was given to the Church so that we can finish our job of reaching our full number and full stature in Christ.

2. The sense of "perfect" in that word refers too to the Return of the Lord, at which time the world will no longer be relying on any human ministry to learn the Truth, since the Lord will be teaching the Truth directly by Himself to the world throughout His Millennial Reign. So, what Paul said there did have a double meaning, but both of them are true. When the Bible was completed, there was no further use for those gifts that either gave us new information about the Lord's Plan or that confirmed the authority of those who brought us that new information. When the Lord returns and resurrects the Church, all gifts through which the Church builds herself up in the Truth today (including the Bible) will also be removed, since the Lord will be teaching the Truth Himself to the world of the unresurrected at that time.

3. So, rather than proving that any gifts of that sort remain today, your somewhat obscure speech actually leads to proof that not only have some gifts been removed from the Church, but in time, all spiritual gifts will be removed from the world with the resurrection of the Church. Millennial believers will learn from the Lord Himself with no human mediation, unlike the Church who prepares herself for her Lord's Return with the gifts that her Lord gave her upon His Ascension.

Question #18:
Your scripture emphasizes my point that perfect love or the reign of love is the point where we no longer need the five-fold offices or the gifts of the spirit. The whole text is littered with "love". Indeed the graces and five-fold offices are toward edification and will always be needed until we no longer need edification that is when we reach perfection which is the fulness of Christ in all His attributes. You and I as well as every believer falls short of this. But anytime you reach this, then tell me the offices and the gifts have been withdrawn and I will believe. There was never any indication in any of your scripture quotations that edification will be done apart from the graces of the Spirit but they do show they should be done together. Paul only suggested that the gifts through love is more excellent than the gifts without(1Cor14). A little research in Church history would show you clearly that no office was ever removed and even the bible never said so. There were many faithfuls who taught the word accurately with the demonstrations of the Spirit. Read God's Generals, Smith Wigglesworth, Kenneth Hagin who ministered to the SAINTS as well as countless more. If you choose this model for your ministry, you are only shortchanging yourself. You have only one life to live, please live it to the fullest. If you hear the Holy Spirit, I humbly suggest you seek Him on this. Need I also say that we will grow up to him in all things also means power and all Divine attributes

Response #18:
1. It is out of love for the brethren that we minister the Truth to each other. In other words, unless we love fellow believers, we will not play our part in the Church, that is, use our spiritual gifts to help each other learn the Truth and become established in it, so that each of us can be able to in turn help others to learn the Truth and become established in it, so that the whole Body builds itself up. That's it.

2. As for the gifts in Ephesians 4:11, the Apostles and prophets are the ones who gave us the Scriptures. Their work in the Church is done. The evangelist and the pastor-teacher are still needed in the Church to teach the Gospel to unbelievers (for the evangelist) and interpret the Scriptures to fellow believers (for the pastor-teacher). So, those gifts are still in the Church. Other gifts exist to aid these gifts in their work.

3. As I said, in my response above, we will continue to need and rely on these gifts until the Resurrection. We will never stop needing the Bible or evangelists or pastor-teachers etc until the Lord Jesus returns. After that, we will no longer need them, and the world will no longer have them, since the Lord Jesus Himself will be teaching the Truth to the world directly (Zechariah 13:3-6; Jeremiah 31:33-34; Isaiah 2:2-3; Habakkuk 2:14).

4. About church history, all sorts of people have claimed all sorts of things and pretended all sorts of things. It doesn't mean that any of it was true. Whatever the Bible says is true. What other people claim to be true, whether they be Smith Wigglesworth or Roberts Liardon, is not guaranteed to be true. It may or may not be. If the Scriptures teach that there are no more apostles and prophets in the Church, then anybody who claims that they themselves or others are apostles or prophets is a liar.

5. I am not interested in your advice in this matter. I stand by what I have said.

Question #19:
Your text doesn't in any way validate your claim. God still speaks today in His son Jesus Christ through His Spirit dwelling in us as earlier addressed. Bible is not the Son of God, take note.

Response #19:
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(KJV) John 5:39

Question #20:
Your scripture again proves that as ministers of God we will always need not just the word of truth but the power of God as well and the armor of God.
If you don't know, let me tell you. Anyone who wears this armor will cause demons to flee at his sight, the anointing of God also causes them to flee.

Response #20:
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 1:24

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(KJV) John 5:39

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
(KJV) John 6:63

I've never seen it said in the Bible that anyone wearing the armor of God will cause demons to flee, nor have I seen that the anointing would cause them to flee. Where did you see such a thing? I do see that the unction of God teaches us all things (1 John 2:27).

Question #21:
Conclusion: Since you are well read in scriptures, I recommend you seek the Holy Spirit and hear his witness on this matter. Don't be shortchanged.

Response #21:
Be assured that because I believe, I have the Holy Spirit, and because I read the Scriptures and have listened to a pastor-teacher, I know His witness on the matter quite well.

Question #22:
Again please let me borrow this.

Response #22:
My response to your earlier similar request applies.

Question #23:
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by that comment.

While I continue in my desire to expand my knowledge of the truth, gaining more each day, and educating myself on the scholastic aspect of Christianity and spirituality, still all of this is certainly not the prerequisite for my admittance into the presence of Jehovah, neither is it a requirement for partaking in the glorious Millennial reign of Christ in New Jerusalem - it is for my own benefit as a flawed human being, not for the glorification of God

This is what I mean.

Response #23:
Not to make the matter wearisome, but if this is what you meant, then I think I understood it the first time.

I have shared Ephesians 4:11-16 with you before, but I will do so again:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:11-16

Two things are clear from the above:

1. Our Faith in Jesus Christ is made secure through spiritual growth. If we are not growing spiritually, that is, working hard to learn the whole realm of biblical truth from a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher, then according to verse 14, we remain children who can be deceived into apostasy. So, while spiritual growth is not necessary for you to be saved (in fact, the vast majority of believers who will end up with the Lord in eternity will have been spiritual infants here on earth), it is actually critical for the security of your faith. It is much harder to stay saved as a spiritual infant than it is as a mature believer.

2. It is the Lord's Will that we grow to spiritual maturity and become able to use our own spiritual gifts to help others to grow spiritually. This pleases Him. Therefore, it glorifies Him when we do it.

​1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
(KJV) John 15:1-8

What is the fruit that we bear? Our service to the Body of Christ using our spiritual gifts:

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(KJV) Ephesians 2:10

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good...
(ESV) 1 Corinthians 12:4-7

13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”. . . 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
(ESV) Galatians 5:13-14,22-26

Question #24:
I totally understand all this, and I honestly don't know how else to explain myself so you can see it from my perspective.

Okay here is something I came across:

Regarding Luke 11:18, Mark 3:26, and Matthew 12:26, Jesus said that Satan will never work against his own purposes. Jesus spoke these words because the Pharisees had accused Jesus of performing a miracle of casting out a demon using the power of Satan. Jesus explained that it would be illogical to expect Satan to lend his power to anyone for the purpose of increasing the Lord's glory.
On the other hand, Jesus was NOT declaring that Satan never grants a person the power to send out a demon. On the contrary, Satan is the ruler of the demons, and therefore he can send demons into or out of an unbeliever’s body at will. Satan may grant the power to one of his agents to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his evil agenda. False teachers and false prophets have long demonstrated supernatural power granted by Satan, including the power to control the demonic realm. The enemy uses this deception to win an audience for his claims.
But as Jesus said, the enemy will never use his power to further the glory or goals of the Lord, which was the point Jesus was making to the Pharisees. Therefore, we cannot say that those who cast out demons must be believers, because sometimes unbelievers cast out demons to further the purposes of Satan.

Response #24:
Again, this was what I thought that you were saying, and it was what I was saying was false. There are speculations of all sorts as to why unsanctioned miracles and exorcisms seem to work, but they are neither necessary nor biblical. If they are not biblical, they could be dangerously false. So, the wise thing to do is to limit ourselves to what the Bible actually says.

1. Satan never casts out Satan. That means that Satan will never want an evil spirit to leave a human body. Rather than allow it, he will provide reinforcements to make it harder to eject them (Matthew 12:26; 43-45; Mark 5:1-13; Luke 8:29,31). That is what the Bible actually teaches.

2. Satan can perform some legitimate signs and miracles (Exodus 7:11-12,22; 8:7; Revelation 13:13-14). This does not mean that he is able to do all things. He cannot expel demons from any human body, because that would destroy his kingdom, is what our Lord Himself said.

3. Satan can put on an act. What it is we can only speculate, but since the Scriptures don't say, speculation is an awful idea. We really should not even be thinking about the spiritual realm (Leviticus 19:31; Deuteronomy 18:10-12), because our business is to learn the Bible. If it doesn't tell us how Satan pulls off his tricks, then we don't need to know. But what it does say we must never dismiss simply because of speculations we prefer.

Question #25:
You only see it this way even though you can never bring up any evidence to this from any of my posts. I have NEVER forced you nor anyone else to accept whatever if you are not WILLING to but have suggested my views to you as you have to me. The only force you perceive is the forcefulness of my convincing arguments. If you call my suggestions hounding, then you have hounded more people than I have.
Understand that my vision is beyond you. I am aware that others read this and that is why I keep correcting errors, just for the sake of the reader. I love the scriptures and this for the time being is a hobby.

It shows incoherency in the manual and this would be the only narrative in the gospels that does so. Everone knows a complete narrative when they see one.

Friend, you are the one that needs to found such a daring claim against the integrity of scripture not me. I didn't remove anything from the bible, you did. And you will have to, to hold on to your beliefs.

It would be easier to show your source than to ask this question.

I'm no way surprised you know you have no scripture anywhere or in the context to refute my claim. Your "answer" doesn't either. Its just a subjective proposition.

Wrong again, the apostles of the early church and prophets only gave us a foundation to build on. That is not the only task of apostles and prophets in general. We still need apostles and prophets who will obviously not lay foundation again but build on it to completion. Until the building is completed and we reach perfection, we need every office(1Cor 3:5-15). You have no scripture that tells us we received full revelation at anytime rather Paul says..we know in part... and all the offices were given to bring us to the fulness of Christ (Eph 4:11), hence will continue till we have this. Again Paul did not recommend his letters to the Ephesian church to give them full revelation but ...the Spirit of wisdom and revelation i.e. the Holy Spirit...(Eph 1:17) knowing that his teaching could only lay a foundation but the Holy Spirit will give yet more. Again some apostolic revelation was not given because the church was not developed yet but were still babies (Heb 5:11-14, Heb 6:1) even though God had released it to the apostles. This would be given by coming apostles when we are able to receive it.

This is not true. Re-read my post. This is properly dealt with. All spiritual offices and gifts remain until perfection in the fullness of Christ in all His attributes is attained(Eph 4:11-14)

Prophecy will never cease until perfection. ...the witness of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy...(Rev 19:10). ....Quench not the Spirit, forbid not prophecy, but test all and hold the good, reject the faulty... (1Thes 5:19-20). The moment we forbid prophecy, we quench the Spirit.

You alone and no single scripture teaches that the apostles or prophets ever were removed or finished their work, we only know that the first set of apostles laid the foundation else I challenge you to produce a single scripture showing the removal of these offices before we are perfected in the fullness of Christ. (Eph 4:11-14)

This is another translational error and why the bible will never be perfection. This correctly reads... YOU(omitted in KJV) search the scriptures...they witness of me but you do not come to me. Check other translations for confirmation.
In other words, they missed the whole point of scripture while "following" the scripture just like we also might if not careful, which is to come to Him that is by His Spirit as earlier posted. It actually makes my point not yours.

Yes. Christ through His Spirit in us not just the letter

Exactly. That is why they can only be spiritually discerned (by the help of the Holy Spirit according to the context of 1Cor 2:14,12) not through the carnal intellect and mere mental exercise of reading.

In the bible. I can assure there's so much more you're yet to see like all of us too until the Spirit opens your inner eye. (Eph 1:17). Demons fled from Jesus for the same reason. (Acts 10:38, Lk 4:18). Did you ever hear of Jesus terrorising demons before He was filled with the Holy Spirit(the anointing according to these texts). We are all supposed to receive the same infilling of the spirit and have the power that goes with it. (Acts 1:

One thing to have the Holy Spirit, another to relate with Him. No teacher will take His place nor will scripture. All our understanding of scripture should only make us seek Him personally and grow our relationship else it is useless (Eph 1:17, Jude:20, Jn 14:26)

Conclusion: All in all I am not surprised that you are unable to provide a backing for your arguments against mine from scripture but prefer to read your meanings into it and make unmerited claims so I will hereby desist to reply on this matter for I have done enough from scripture to prove my stance. It is left to the reader then to judge. We meet again on another matter. Btw, be aware that I still agree with part of your doctrine in some of your other posts which I do not correct. Its fun engaging you too.

*Please kindly re-read my previous post. I have modified it and made some very interesting additions before this reply of yours. Feel free to counter them too.

Response #25:
There are only two kinds of people that I spend time on in debate or discussion:

1. People who appear to me to be believers who respect the Bible and who are willing to discuss under its authority.

2. False teachers whose teaching I am examining for Truth so that others can see for themselves that they are dangerous to listen to.

You are not clearly either to me. I am not sure what you are. So far, it just seems to me like you are one of those very fiery, zealous believers who have perhaps a strong teaching gift and some knowledge of the Bible, but absolutely no training in the Bible. You can make some connections, but you are not able yet to learn from anybody. That is how I read you for now. I could be wrong, and that is why I try to never share my opinions of people either with them or with others, but I could also be right.

You are convinced that your teaching is correct. That is fine by me. I have no desire, time, or energy to correct it. So far, what I prefer to do is to explain what I see in the Bible concerning any question on this board and answer any questions or arguments that necessitate clarifying my position in some point. I am not in the business of taking choice away from anyone, so I am not going to argue with anyone who does not want to believe what I say. If you disagree, that is all very well. I don't mind. I will only break fellowship with you if

1. You teach errors that attack the believer's Salvation, and/or

2. You are a quarrelsome person always itching for an argument.

You are at least bordering right now on (2), which is why I tend not to talk to you, and people like that tend to end up in (1).

Finally, although this is a hobby for you, it is not the same for me. I am here as a pastor-teacher offering both spiritual food and protection for any believer willing to receive them from me. So, if you are not helping, you are meddling. And that will carry a reward from the Lord.

Now, I will answer the things in your post that seem to me to be fair demands for clarification in what I have said. It will be my last attempt at doing so, unless I find something you say compelling enough to bother to continue to respond to you.

1. I do have evidence for your hounding of me. This is only one piece of it:

"...stop spreading these deusions (sic) of demons..." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/5564537/non-believer-cast-out-devil/1#84635695)

I'm not going to sift through all your responses to me just to post all the evidence. The very tone of your posts are all of the same quality.

2. Mark told the story of the Christ, beginning pretty much in the middle - with the commencement of the Lord's Ministry - and ending with His Resurrection. If we are going to complain that Mark does not go on to tell us all about what happened after He resurrected, why don't you also complain that he didn't tell us about the Unique Virgin Birth as well? What about Matthew who did not even record the Ascension? Or John who left out so much of the history, focusing more on what the Lord taught than on the history that the others seemed more concerned with? Even John did not record the Ascension, ending his narration with what the Lord said about him. So, how do we define completeness? By your qualms? If you don't like the end, you can decide that it is incomplete?

3. First, the information after Mark 16:8 is a mix of truths found elsewhere in the Bible and lies, that is information that contradicts what you can see elsewhere in the Bible:

i. Verse 12. This suggests that the Lord changed or changes form in appearance. This draws from Luke 24:16, but it distorts it. We have no reason at all to think that the Lord changes in appearance. That has lent itself to the many lies and madnesses in the church visible today about the Lord and angels appearing in different forms to different people. Nothing in the Bible teaches this. We are only told by Luke that the disciples going to Emmaus were prevented from recognizing the Lord. Considering, in fact, that no other disciple, including the Eleven, did, it seems clear to me that our Lord's Resurrection Body only looked different from what they were used to. This is established by Revelation 1 where John saw the Lord and did not recognize Him either. Although He had been glorified too in that instance, it is consistent with His post-Resurrection appearances.

ii. Verse 14. Luke records the first meeting of the Risen Lord with the remaining members of the Twelve in Luke 24:33-36. They were with other believers in Jerusalem receiving the report of the two disciples from Emmaus when the Lord showed Himself to them for the first time. Even His Words on this occasion are recorded and we see very little of this "rebuke" that is recorded here.

iii. Verse 16. The Lord never ordained water baptism. What He said in Matthew 28:19 was that teaching the Gospel is the same as baptizing anyone who believes it into the Trinity. This verse was clearly written by someone who thought that the Lord ordained water baptism, a practice that was meant only for Jewish believers to prepare them for the Lord's Coming. The practice was continued after the Cross but only for a short time, especially to bring those who knew of John's Ministry into the Faith too, that is, they went through John to come to Christ. Soon after, water baptism was no longer practised in the Church. But there have always been legalists, and they would not give up those things that they felt secure in. That is why that verse is there. See also Acts 1:5.

iv. Verses 17-18. This is one reason that many who love to think of this passage as part of the Bible do. Yet, it stands in direct opposition to 1 Corinthians 12-14. It certainly does not lend itself very easily to agreement with Acts 1:8.

v. Verse 19. The Lord ascended from the Mount of Olives "in the vicinity of Bethany." See Acts 1:12 and Luke 24:50, not from Jerusalem. And He did not ascend right after His Resurrection. Acts records that He appeared to the disciples over a period of 40 days before He ascended. This verse stands in direct contradiction of all that.

That is Scriptural evidence. The historical evidence is that there are many different endings of this chapter, depending on which manuscript you pick up. Finally, the best manuscript, the earliest complete one, that we have from the early 4th century or so, the Codex Sinaiticus, ended at verse 8.

4. Regarding John 5:39, the absence or presence of the "you" does not affect my argument. The Lord Himself declared that the Scriptures testify of Him. So, the Bible is a revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

5. You have nothing more of value in your post to respond to. I will only warn you about this notion of an "inner eye" and the nonsense about being taught by the Spirit and not the letter. The Bible is the Truth that the Lord has given to us. If you want to add to it, then although I have only treated you as a troublesome believer so far, I will begin to treat you as an enemy of the Truth. I am also beginning to consider that those statements are reminiscent of some wicked men here that I have discussed with who want to seduce believers into seeking after obscure pseudepigrapha like the Book of Enoch and others like it. This is a faceless forum, and you could very well be one of them masquerading as a believer with problematic ideas. If you are, it will be found out soon enough, and you will not enjoy the results.

Nonetheless, I am done responding. Do what you will with what I have said. I have no use for your own teaching.

Question #26:
A limited perspective. If God cannot change His appearance, then He certainly did not resurrect with all power and authority as even ordinary angels can do this( Heb13:2).

Response #26:
First off, I certainly did not say that God cannot change His Appearance (in fact, I did say that the Lord's Resurrection Body was different in appearance from His Mortal Body: that was why His disciples could not recognize Him). I only said that the Scriptures are quite clear that He does not (the change in the Resurrection Body was because it is a different kind of body and it is actually the One that fits the Glory that is the Lord's Deity, otherwise, God does not change in appearance at all). Second, I don't see any Scriptural proof for this claim of yours that unless God changes His Appearance, He cannot resurrect. I see nothing connecting the two.

Third, this is Hebrews 13:2

2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
(ESV) Hebrews 13:2

What part of that says anything about changing appearance?

Question #27:
Again a limited perspective, you look from. There is no exclusiveness of both events, because each gospel narrative complements the other, some highlighting one detail, others, another detail. Even all put together, still leave out some events. (Jn 21:25)

Response #27:
I think this is too straightforward for me to have to further explain or defend. Not only were the Eleven not alone, but we are also given what the Lord, in fact, says there. If there was a rebuke, we would see it in Luke's report.

Question #28:
Your subjective proposition again. You have of course, only chosen to help the Lord define the baptism he meant in Mt 28. And have by yourself, made the baptism in Mk 16:16 to mean water baptism. Your lens is your problem.

Response #28:
The Greek in Matthew 28 reads, "baptizing them into the Name of the Father, into the Name of the Son, and into the Name of the Holy Spirit." "Name" is another way of saying "Person." Peter calls this "partaking of the divine Nature." The New Testament is filled from end to end with references and teachings of the joining of the believer with the Lord (that is, the Trinity) through acceptance of the Gospel.

Mark 16:16, on the other hand, says "baptize" without qualification. That almost always means water baptism in theology and in the Bible. You will see Paul also use the word the same way in 1 Corinthians 1. The context is often the final arbiter. Here, the context does not provide the distinction that made it clear to the disciples what kind of baptism the Lord was talking about. Considering how this later proved to be a problem for the church, it is clear that the context in Acts 1:5, for example, was necessary.

Question #29:
You just don't understand what baptism is here meant(...doctrine of baptisms...Heb6:2), as there are several Christian baptisms. If only you knew what provision goes with this particular baptism(same here as in Mt 28), It is not in the class of what you find in 1Cor 12-14, Acts 1:8. But don't worry, as the building of the Lord is completed, these things will come to light.

Response #29:
I said nothing about baptism here. But it is interesting that you say that there are "several Christian baptisms." This is what I read in the Bible:

4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
(ESV) Ephesians 4:4-6

Question #30:
Once again, subjective proposition. Where was it emphatically told of where He ascended from. If you study the gospels very well, especially Mark, you will see his is the least for continuity and details. He doesn't tell us v18 and v19 are directly continuous(there could any length of time in between) but only that one happened after the other, as he also doesn't describe the details of His ascent.
So please be careful when tampering with scripture, you may be heaping on yourself(Rev 22:19), all because of a simple limited human perspective.

Response #30:
Perhaps it is not clear to you just how poor your argument is, but I think that it should be obvious to anyone who reads our exchanges honestly.

Question #31:
I am clearly under scriptural authotity, it is you who rejects scripture and hold on to the traditions of men that you have learnt. Otherwise show me an instance where I failed to give scriptural support for my stance. However, even with refutations from scripture, you keep your traditions with only the support that "you were trained by a teacher.." and I can't nor will ever try to take this right from you.
It is also better to have "no training in the bible" and enter the kingdom "as a child"(Mt 18:3) than to be as trained as the pharisees and shut the doors of it to men(Lk 11:52) with bible school falsehood traditions of men, which quench the Holy Spirit.

Response #31:
If you want to pretend to yourself that you are "under scriptural authority," that is not my problem. My opinion of you is of little consequence unless it is one that agrees with the Bible. I shared it with you to offer you a chance to understand my attitude toward you, not either to get you to agree or to disagree. My opinion could be wrong or it could be right. But it does direct my behavior toward you. And that behavior right now is that it is a waste of my time and energy to discuss with you, so this is very likely the last conversation that you and I will have anywhere on this board.

As for Matthew 18:3, the whole point of the Lord's teaching there is that children are open to learning from an authority that they trust, and they ask questions to establish what is true too. A combination of that willingness to receive new information and the natural tendency to try to have it make sense is what we call humility. Without it, no one can even accept the Gospel (see Acts 8:30-35, for example). The same attitude is needed to continue to grow spiritually and come to spiritual maturity, because without a willingness to submit to one teacher, one simply cannot learn the whole realm of biblical truth from anyone (Hebrews 13:17).

I don't see whatever you meant to say with Luke 11:52, but it does seem to me that your meddling amounts to something similar to what the Pharisees are accused of by the Lord.

Question #32:
Haha. Ask me and I could give you a endless catalogue of men I have learnt one or two things from(and you probably would learn from if you're humble enough), most also coming from the Holy Spirit Himself who God has given to us all for spiritual education of those who give Him His rightful place. It is you however, who l see cannot learn from anyone outside of your "pastor-teacher", not even the Holy Spirit Himself, as you believe you both only have custody of the full, flawless understanding of the things of God, needing nothing more from outside your enclave, as the eye that says I do not need the hand (1Cor 12:21). (I hope I am wrong in this).

Response #32:
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
(ESV) 2 Timothy 4:3-4

15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
(ESV) 1 Corinthians 4:15

Keep your multitude teachers, and I'll keep my one.

Question #33:
Ah! all these I see you have but 'lack' only when scripture is clearly against your false traditions.

Response #33:
Your judgment is yours to make. It is really not my concern.

Question #34:
Your deliberately warped impression, which I consider mind games as a result of obvious inability to dispute my claims from scripture doesn't deter me. Make more wrong propositions, and if I find out and feel I should correct them, I definitely would. Love for the brethren(readers),as you said, will make to.
And yes, you do talk to me, but of course only before I disarm you with scriptural refutations to any falsehood you present.

Response #34:
You are welcome to whatever you wish to believe. It is not my concern.

Question #35:
Pastor-teacher, apostle, prophet or whatever title you have. We all, like Paul, know in part and see through a vague mirror for now(1Cor 13:9,12). As Paul reproved APOSTLE Peter, only pride will make you indisposed to reproof. If I am not "helping" you, I may at least help others from falling into any falsehood you present here, and that, just as a hobby. If you aren't mature enough to entertain this, I advise you stay off a public forum.
Note also that I consider your accusation of 'meddling' a subtle way of trying to take my freedom of speech and correction of your falsehoods, for the sake of others, away from me. A 'psychological' bullying.

Response #35:
As I said, I don't care for your teaching. I have been taught, and I still use my pastor-teacher's help very often. I don't need or want yours. Make of that what you will.

Question #36:
Is this another mind game. Funny. You know nothing of my rewards from the Lord. I even doubt you know yours. You are not talking to a babe in Christ that you can ward off with things like this.

Response #36:
According to you, I also know nothing of the Scriptures. You are wrong about both ideas.

Question #37:
Even though you wittily removed the beginning of that sentence." Please read ....and stop spreading these delusions of demons". It still fails conspicuously, as you have presented it, to take away your choice to keep spreading the delusions, as it is only a suggestion, hoping you care about souls of men. If then you want to call this hounding, I will hound you yet more when you spread delusions and I want to do so but please don't in any way feel under "hounding" pressure to stop whenever I plead you do, I assure you that I am harmless as a dove and never imagine to take your freedom of choice away.

Response #37:
The Scriptures actually tell us to quit engaging a heretic or a divisive person after we have warned them twice (see Titus 3:9-11). In other words, by now, if you had any respect for the Bible, you should not even be discussing with me anymore. I assure you that I am not going to change what I teach, certainly not because you "begged" or "pleaded" with me too, however many times you wish to do it. But I feel pretty confident that I have not seen the last of you, but you are certainly going to hear nothing more from me going forward.

Question #38:
Conclusion: Although I may sound really blunt with you in my criticisms, please know that I have not failed to recognize your teaching gift, but only wish to encourage you to see that we ALL know in part (1Cor 13:9, though you seem not to accept this) and I may need you today while you will need someone else(not me, as you have rejected me)tomorrow(apart from your teacher). I've been blessed by so many brothers who have crossed my path and helped me to advance and I am always looking for more gains from new contacts, l don't care if its even an ignoramus. After all said and done, with the love of God, I wish you a fruitful ministry in the Lord and commend you to His grace to His grace that it will perfect you. I also appreciate if you wish me same.

Response #38:
I may not be the only person on this board who cares nothing for flattery, but you can be sure that I don't care at all for any kind of "recognition" from anyone. I am here to do a job, and I will do it, whether you recognize my gift or you don't, whether you approve or you don't, whether you follow me around all over this board or you don't. I really don't care what you think of me or what you choose to do about me. That is entirely and wholly your problem, not mine.

As for your wishes, I don't care for them either. I care nothing for anyone who treats the Bible the way that you do. Nor do I advise you to care that I don't care. But you may be sure that I do not consider you a friend of any kind.

Question #39:
________ must be one of those "not one of you", I guess, which is why you can't humble yourself and learn from him like you state one should.

Response #39:
**No response**

Question #40:
Angels with glorified bodies, SOMETIMES, took disguised human forms(Gen 19:5, so that the Sodomites desired them rather than being afraid, and countless other texts, if you read your bible) hence the admonition...show hospitality to strangers...UNAWARES. If after the Lord resurrected with a glorified body, his body couldn't transform (when He pleased) to disguised human forms as the angels, then He didn't resurrect with all power and authority because angels can do what He can't. This he clearly did in (Mk 16:12)

Response #40:
Where does the Bible teach that angels have bodies, much less glorified ones? This is what I see in the Bible:

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(KJV) Hebrews 1:7

Daniel does say that the angel that he was speaking to in Daniel 10:6 had a body like beryl, but that is better understood as "a form (in appearance) like beryl." Angels have forms or shapes, but they don't have a corporeal body. Only man and the animals do (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21; Genesis 2:7). Angels are spirits.

As for taking disguised human forms, throughout the Scriptures, angels are described as looking like humans. Only the four cherubim look different in their possession of three non-human faces in addition to their human-looking one and the feet of a calf, rather than a human, as well as six wings (Ezekiel 1,10; Isaiah 6; Revelation 4). There are two women said to have the wings of storks in Zechariah 5:9 too, so there may be other angels besides the cherubim who also have wings. These are the only angels with features that are non-human. Otherwise, everywhere that angels are mentioned in the Bible and described, they look like normal humans except that they are resplendent with light and always look so powerful that they terrify those who see them with their glory unveiled.

The instance that you speak of and others like it often involve a presentation of the angels without the obvious glory. That is, they don't look threatening to the people who see them. Nothing is said about a disguise in these places, unless you want to argue that their appearance without looking resplendent with glory is a disguise. Then that would be like saying that a policeman without his uniform is in disguise. If you see it that way, then so be it. I have no quarrels with you over that. There is no record in the Bible, however, of an angel's transformation of their form into anything at all. They always look human, even if their glory is hidden in some of their appearances to human beings.

Question #41:
You must be one of those who pick and choose scriptures while IGNORING others to suit your position rather than reconcile scriptures together like skillful teachers do(2Tim2:15). As there is "one faith", we also move from "faith to faith"(Rom1:17). Only one glory but from "glory to glory"(2Cor 3:18). Only one grace but from "grace to grace"(Jn 1:16).
So also "one baptism" but from one level to another, hence baptismS(Heb 6:2). You even prove this by distinguishing two baptisms, baptism into the name(though your definition is very wrong) from the baptism of the Holy Spirit(Acts1:5). Maybe one day, you should learn the doctrine of baptismS. (Heb6:2)
Teaser: What baptism was the Lord talking about here(Lk 12:50) AFTER he was filled with the Holy Spirit(Lk 4:1), like we are filled(baptized) in (Acts 1:5, Acts2:4).
Also which was he speaking of to John and James(Mt20:22-23).

Response #41:
Considering that the Lord Himself made clear that there is "little faith" (Matthew 8:26, for example) and "great faith" (Luke 7:9, for example) and that we are called to "build up ourselves in our most holy Faith" (Jude 1:20), I see no contradiction between Romans 1:17 and what I have said. We are supposed to be getting stronger and stronger in faith by growing spiritually - that is, diligently learning, believing, and practicing everything that the Bible teaches through the help of a tested and reliable pastor-teaching ministry (Ephesians 4:11-13).

Nonetheless, this is how NIV1984 translates Romans 1:17, and I consider it the best translation for this verse among those I've looked at:

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 1:17 NIV1984

I don't think there is anything about "one glory" or "one grace" in the Bible, but since, just like faith, there is only one thing that can be glory or grace in meaning, wherever the Bible talks about "from glory to glory" or "grace upon grace," it means it in the same way that Romans 1:17 means it for faith. There are no different kinds of glory (unless you are referring to 1 Corinthians 15 where the issue is how the Resurrection Body is of a different kind than the mortal one) and no different kinds of grace, just as there are no different kinds of faith. Faith is trust in God. We can have little trust in Him, and we can have great trust in Him. We can grow more trusting of Him as we get to know Him and love Him, just as we can grow less trusting of Him if we are not getting to know Him and love Him. Glory is light and reputation. We can have little of that or we can have much of it. Different kinds of things and activities carry different degrees of praise and respect, but glory does not change in quality. Grace is favor. We can take advantage of favor extended to us to a greater and a lesser degree, but favor is favor. It means nothing else.

Baptism, on the other hand, means "dipping into." So, there are different kinds depending on what the medium is that is being dipped into. Water was the common medium in the days we are discussing. In Palestine, among the Jews, different sects practiced water baptism, so when the word "baptism" or "baptize" was used without qualification, it referred to water baptism. John's was separate from them although it was still water baptism. While the others were not sanctioned by God, John's was exactly the same as the "washing" that the priests practiced before entering the Temple to serve the Lord (Exodus 30:17-21). It was a way of recognizing the sinfulness of man and its incompatibility with the Holiness of God. Since the Lord Jesus Who is God Himself was coming to them and He was going to carry away all their sins, John washed those who repented in water as a symbol of their humble acceptance of their status before God into Whose Presence they were about to enter with the Coming of the Lord Jesus, and when he baptized our Lord too, that was Him entering into the water to "carry away" all the sins washed symbolically into it. This was John's baptism (Matthew 3:11).

John Himself testified that the Lord Jesus had a different kind of baptism, two, in fact: one for believers and another for unbelievers. Everyone who believes will be baptized into the Holy Spirit through Whom they would be baptized into the Trinity and into the Body of Christ (John 1:33; Matthew 3:11; 1 Corinthians 6:17; 12:13). Everyone who doesn't believe will be baptized with fire (Matthew 3:11-12; Revelation 20:15).

Regarding Luke 12:50, this is what I have just spoken of here in my foregoing comments. Just as the Lord's water baptism was a symbol of His taking up the burden of the sins of those who believed and were baptized by John, the actual fulfillment of that symbol was the Cross. That was His Baptism. On the Cross, He was judged for the sins of the world. He stood condemned before the Father for all our sins. He was therefore "baptized" into our condemnation. He tasted death for all of us. That was it.

About Hebrews 6:2, the doctrine of baptisms is what I have just explained. It is that for believers, there is only one baptism. There are many baptisms indeed, but there is only one for believers. The baptism of John is one kind of baptism, and I have explained it above. The baptism of fire is another kind, and I have explained it above. The baptism of the Cross too is a unique One for only the Lord Jesus, and I have explained it above too. Paul mentions this multiplicity of baptisms in order to tell the Jewish believers that he was writing to that this was something that they should have already learned in the "milk" stage of their spiritual development. That is to say, this is not a doctrine for the mature. It is one for spiritual infants who are still vulnerable to confusion about baptisms. All believers have only one baptism, that of the Holy Spirit, which we receive when we believe. We have other baptisms explained to us, so that we don't get confused about whether we need them or not.

Question #42:
Did you actually read this and miss the part that says, though you may have countless tutors... Only one person can birth you into faith, but countless may contribute to yours, if you wish, else Paul would have said Apollos and Peter were in the wrong for watering but ALL he says are "of Christ" and "ALL(tutors of Christ) ARE YOURS"(1Cor 3:22.
Note also: Do not glory in any man, father or tutor(pastor-teacher)(1Cor3:21).

Response #42:
Considering that Paul was actually chastising the Corinthians about their enchantment with all sorts of people claiming to be "super-apostles" who were challenging Paul's teachings to them and causing the Corinthians to belittle Paul and start forming factions following different teachers and apostles, I wouldn't say that this part about countless guides or tutors is actually a positive statement. Paul did use quite a lot of sarcasm in his letters to the Corinthians, especially in this first one. Basically, he was telling them that even if they wanted to amass teachers for themselves, they truly only had one: him. He was the one to whom the Lord had given authority to "feed them" (1 Corinthians 9:2, cf. 2 Corinthians 10-13). That is to say, that only such people as Paul endorsed to them were people who were good to listen to for them, since Paul was the one with the charge to provide for them spiritually.

1 Corinthians 3:22 demonstrates the foolishness of forming factions following different teachers when what matters is that whoever it is you have is serving God for your benefit. That is, you don't "collect" teachers for yourself. You are given a teacher by the Lord Himself for His Purpose of building you up in the Truth (1 Corinthians 3:1-4:21). The teacher is not a trophy. He is an under-shepherd mandated by the Lord to feed and protect His sheep. So, what the Corinthians were doing amassing teachers for themselves and forming factions was a very foolish thing to do.

Question #43:
As usual, mind games that would never work on me. You have definitely not seen the last of me if you remain on this forum and post anything harmful to others. This will not be about changing your opinion but always about the innocent reader, who ALREADY wants to do God's will and may be shortchanged by your errors. You are a hypocrite in this too, if you also correct threads of proven heretic authors here like you always do, ...Sabina.. comes to mind, or engage heretic teachers with more than two replies. You claim to do so however for the sake of readers. If you can suggest to me anyway I can correct your falsehoods so every reader can see without engaging you directly, I would welcome it. For me I waste no time trying to change a man's view, I have learnt that only God does this. You also admit by your decision to stop correcting my errors that you have been trying to change my view, NOT to help the readers, which is why seeing you can't, you will no longer engage me.

Response #43:
I started out my ministry here sometime between August and October 2018 with the desire to answer any good questions people ask of the biblical position. I debated and still debate plenty people, sometimes multiple times, not because of who they are, but because of the questions, challenges, arguments, and counter-arguments that they present. Sometimes, I make a difference with people who demonstrate themselves to be stumbling blocks to the faith, and I never talk to them no matter what question, challenge, or argument they present. That is usually because engaging them ends up creating a very murky discussion from which a believer reading will find little value, because of the ability of such people to make things incredibly confusing for others.

This is an Internet forum. I cannot actively avoid interacting with or being interacted with by people whom I would never have anything to do with physically. If the Lord had given me a physical group of people to provide spiritual food for and the likes of some people I have seen here were to come there, they would have been expelled from that group, and I would have had nothing further to do with them. But here, I can't stop people from challenging things that I say to other people. I answer those challenges only to demonstrate that what I have taught is indeed true. In other words, as far as I'm able, I have a policy to answer every challenge that is made to things I teach, so that the truth of them is demonstrated as completely and perfectly as possible. Whenever the challenge is unreasonable, I don't consider myself obliged to respond. Whenever I have marked anyone as an enemy of the Truth, I offer no challenges to their teachings, and I offer only necessary responses to their challenges to mine for the sake of anyone who may read what I have said that they are challenging. So, you will find that there are many people whose threads I never respond to, whose comments made independently of anything I have said I never respond to, and whose challenges I many times ignore.

I don't interpret "warn...once and twice" to mean to give only two replies. I understand it to literally mean to warn such people twice about their wickedness and then stop having anything to do with them, that is, to quit associating with them as believers (cf. 1 Corinthians 5:11). Here, of course, if they interfere in my ministry, I may answer them if their interference is reasonable, just like some of your questions and challenges here have been. I would not have responded at all to you, if I did not consider your questions and arguments useful to demonstrate the truth of my position. In other words, I use challenges like yours only to develop my teaching further. Beyond that, I have absolutely no interest in them. I don't consider many people who do what you have done with me brethren at all. I see them as wicked people committed to causing weak believers to stumble. So, all I do with them is limit the actual possibility of accomplishing that. I, of course, cannot stop anyone from listening to them, if they want, but as long as anyone accepts my authority as a pastor-teacher, they will not be threatened by them.

Question #44:
Conclusion: I only wish you quit at this point as I wish to end this here too(its become redundant). Any reader has sufficient information to pick his stance. You clearly have nothing from scripture to dispute my claims. We can, however, both use what we have to do more relevant work, correcting errors on other threads to help the innocent readers (maybe the one common goal we have) and learning from others.

Response #44:
Feel free to do as you please. Don't feel pressed by me to act in any way at all. I certainly have no intention to please you or do as you wish. If you actually go on to offer a response that I consider useful to respond to, I will respond to it. It has no bearing on the decision that I have made about you. Nothing you say on this board will get a response from me anymore, unless it is said in response to what I teach and contains challenges that I consider meaningful to address.

As for your claim that I have nothing from scripture to dispute your claims, that has been said to me before. It was not true then any more than it is now. So I am not impressed. I have provided Scriptures for everything that I have said to you. In fact, I do that more with challenges like yours than I do it with any other type of engagement, except perhaps for when I'm talking to people who trust me or I'm writing up a study. But even if you see a stack of passages in everything I write, it is possible for you to claim that it is not there at all. That means nothing to me, since my responses are written for other believers who are willing to listen to the Truth. So I can't really make it my business to worry about what you want to believe about this.

As for what you wish to do going forward, I have a mandate from the Lord as a pastor-teacher. My mission is to fulfill it, not quite to satisfy you, so that is what I will do going forward.

Nota bene: The reason that I am this way with you is that you are meddlesome. I am not quite convinced that you are a false teacher looking to prevent others from coming to know the Truth. I still think that you are just a very zealous believer who, unfortunately, is untaught in the Truth - some of your ideas are surprisingly correct (your read on the OSAS doctrine and on the business of spiritual growth and associated eternal rewards, for example), but others are expectedly wrong and desperately so (pretty much everything else that you and I have discussed is an example). Still, whether you are doing what you are doing deliberately or ignorantly, it is still doing damage, and that is why I cannot treat you as mildly as I would prefer. I'm sure you feel the same way about me, but you are quite wrong to think of me as any kind of danger to God's children. I'm not perfect, but I have been taught the Truth and I'm zealous for the Household of God. I have put much on the line just to learn the Truth and become truly qualified to teach it. So, I am not a danger to the Church. Not that I expect you to believe it, but for the hope that I have concerning you, I have said it anyway.

Although I have not expressed it until now, I do hope that as the Lord had mercy upon mercy on me and brought me to the Truth after I spent much of my life teaching errors in my zeal, He will do the same for you. I would be thrilled to help you or to direct you to where I was helped too, but I'm sure that you will not accept my help. So I will only hold out the hope that I have for you.

Nonetheless, I am a pastor-teacher. My job is to look after the Lord's Sheep. I cannot treat any threat to them mildly. It is true that I don't have a church here, but I do have teachings here that will be read on this platform and elsewhere by believers. It is these teachings that I must guard from corruption - even by well-meaning believers who are not taught in the Truth and yet present themselves as teachers.

Question #45:
Grace and peace to you sir.

Its actually kind of illogical to believe that if we find no instance in scripture of God doing something, He therefore never did or ever will(even if it does not violate any of His principles). Read John 21:25. It is impossible to record all acts of an omnipotent God in a finite book and no one ever attempted to. But all recording in scripture was to present His principles to men (so we may not err) and so that we may believe unto eternal life(John 20:31, 2Tim 3:16) but there are yet new things not imagined that He will do(never contradicting scriptural principles though) for which He gave us ONLY His Spirit for their birthing(1Cor 2:9-10)
Yet you lack even this privilege of refuting this as Lk 24:31, Jn 21:4, Jn 20:14, Mk 16:12 all show He took different forms after He resurrected as angels were known to as Heb 13:2

Response #45:
As you said, the Scriptures were given to us to declare God's Counsel to us for our own choices in this life. Just as the angels were tested in their own turn before the destruction and re-creation of the universe in order to create man, so we are being tested in our turn as to our preferred attitude to the Lord. The Scriptures are given to declare to us Who God is and What He will have of us. Therefore, what they do not say, it is not wise for us to speculate about. That is why I limit myself to what the Scriptures say, not to what they do not say. They are quite clear that the Lord does not change in form or appearance or in behavior. He is always the same.

As for the passages you shared, I have addressed them before. It is not meaningful that I should do so again. As I said, you are free to choose to not believe me, but I stand by what I said before.

Question #46:
You have only chosen to make baptismS suggest different(several)kinds and faith, one(in progressive degrees) but you should see it as one baptism into Christ(baptism of John/purification of jews was never taught to believers btw because they needed nothing of it) but of different depths(levels or degrees)just as one may drown in the sea but yet sink progressively further until the sea bed(from into Christ(repentance by divine nature), to the Holy Spirit(gifts), into the cup(Mt 20:22-23), into fire (Mt3:11), into Name(Mt 28:19) etc.) yielding different degrees of divine experience and fellowship hence "...baptisms"(Heb 6:2). Just as the Lord was baptized in water(repentance)(this of course not because he had sin but to 'fulfill all righteousness', leaving us a complete example to follow 1Pet 2:21), then in the Holy Spirit(Mt 3:16), then into the cup or sufferings(Mt 20:22), into fire, like the brazen serpent on the cross(Lk 12:49-50), death and burial(Mt 12:40), into the name(Php 2:9).
Let's see it this way, baptism is simply going into a realm(like water) you never come out of(Water baptism is only symbolic, so you still come out). The real believers baptism is however simply about going into the sea of Christ once to never come out, yet progressively from depth to depth.

Response #46:
I'm afraid I don't agree with you on this one any more than I agree with you on the matter of changing appearances. I have explained to you what I read in the Bible. I see no reason to believe that the above is the right way to interpret the Scriptures in reference to baptisms. Consider that when faith or grace is spoken of, it is "faith" and "grace" that are said, not "faiths" or "graces." The Scriptures tell us about different baptisms, but they tell us also that there is only one for believers. That is where I stand on this.

Question #47:
No. No trace of sarcasm here at all.Paul clearly said as father, his work was to lay foundation, 'plant' (1Cor3:10), but as tutors, others(Apollos, Peter and any others to come) would build on it, 'water'(v 12-13). Paul indeed endorsed certain people, but did not discredit the Lord's endorsement of Apollos, Peter etc., who he didn't personally endorse.

Response #47:
Paul was an Apostle, one of the Twelve. About these the Scriptures say,

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
(NKJV) Ephesians 2:19-22

That is, the Church is built on the Foundation that is laid by the Apostles and the Prophets. This Foundation is Jesus Christ Himself (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:11). Compare this thing that Paul says through the Holy Spirit here to the following:

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
(NKJV) 1 John 1:1-4

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(KJV) 2 Peter 1:16-21

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(KJV) 2 Peter 3:15-16

That is, the Apostles and the Prophets delivered to us the Revelation of Jesus Christ Who Himself is God's Sure Word of Prophecy. That is the Foundation that they laid upon which we are to build. Apollos was just like us, a believer with a spiritual gift who was responsible to use that Foundation laid by the Apostles and Prophets to build something magnificent in his own time. That is what we are each to do with our own spiritual gifts (Ephesians 2:21; 4:16).

So, that part of the Bible does not mean that Paul did not have clearly delineated teaching authority with respect to the Corinthians. He was their God-ordained teacher. He sent Apollos and Timothy and others to them to minister to them in his absence too, but they were his "children," that is, God's children entrusted to his pastoral care (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:2; Galatians 4:19).

Question #48:
I already know you know your brothers include those who don't agree with 100% of your doctrine and critique it in light of actual scripture. I will be spared such 'brotherhood' for Truth sake.

Response #48:
I don't understand your second sentence, but I do agree that even those who are mature in the Truth do not agree 100% of the time. We are in a mortal body and we all have different "spiritual pressure points," so we are susceptible to different kinds of errors. But those who are mature are those who have actually grown into the full realm of biblical truth. That is, they have come to appreciate what the Bible teaches as a whole and they will agree on that, even if they do not always agree on the details (Philippians 3:15).

I don't demand agreement. I demand respect for the Bible. If those I discuss with treat the Scriptures flippantly, then I do not treat them like believers, even if they are. The reason is simple: the only safety that a believer has in this life is in the Truth. If anyone messes with that, they mess with the very Salvation of believers. So, while I can stomach certain disagreements and maintain fellowship with those who disagree with me, there are other sorts of disagreement that will lead to my dispensing with any form of association with those with whom I disagree.

Question #49:
Only with subjective lens of 'theology' and 'training', some of which I have clearly used a wholistic view of scripture to dispel, some being true.

Response #49:
You are welcome to your judgment on this. I was only pointing out to you that you were wrong in suggesting that I did not provide Scriptures in and for my arguments. They are all there. If you disagree with how I have interpreted them, that is another thing, and I cannot force you to see what I see.

Question #50:
I see a 'not seared', tender conscience. The Spirit will reveal what I am to you and we can laugh over all this in heaven. Meddlesome, I wouldn't quite say, just on a similar mission as you, we investigate what comes in here as much as disposed and offer our views for the readers' sake.

Response #50:
My mission here is to answer biblical questions and defend my answers. I also challenge some very dangerous doctrines in order to leave a witness to the Truth for any vulnerable believer willing to hear my witness. But I do not get involved in arguments for their own sake nor remain in discussions where my witness has been rejected. The conversations that I have here I compile and share with brothers and sisters who study with me under the pastor-teaching ministry that the Lord gave to help me and train me and them and others willing to receive the help.

Question #51:
No. I don't think you are a danger to the brothers. I think you have a gift (I pointed out from my very first post, not to affirm you but to show I have no wrong intentions) but just as wheat and chaff that the Lord must thresh with His fire until a chaff-less perfect offering you become (We all are such) (Mt3:11). Every gift given to one is to lead one, as well as others to perfection of love, but if idolized, may hinder one from it.
You prove to be well taught in truth but must recognize the best any of us can come to before perfection of love is 'epignosis', sufficient recognition of truth to reproduce a worthy response/lifestyle to the gospel(which is most important btw), while we still have partial 'gnosis' (1Cor13:9) in the mode of partial functions/interdependence of our body cells. God gave one what he did not give the other, so no man will take glory and all will need all others. Paul, after so great a ministry, admitted his limited gnosis(Php 3:10), though his epignosis was undeniable. No pastor-teacher, no matter how skillful in the word of truth has absolute truth but must keep learning, like Paul.

Response #51:
I understand spiritual gifting differently than you do. I see in the Scriptures (Ephesians 4:11-16; 1 Corinthians 12:4-7) that spiritual gifts are given for the edification of the Church, that is, those who have through spiritual growth and necessary preparation become able to use their gift to benefit their brothers and sisters are the ones to whom the Lord commits a ministry of some sort so that they can. The ministry may not be an obvious one, but it will be a real one that works in a very specific way to help every believer that will accept the person's help to grow in the Truth. If the gift is a pastor-teaching gift, the person will offer interpretations of Scripture to help those who will accept his help to grow to understand everything that the Bible teaches. If it is a giving gift, the giver will use his material resources to help everyone who will receive his help to access the Truth and grow in it.

This does not mean that at spiritual maturity and with the commencement of ministry we no longer have anything to learn, but those who have matured in the Truth don't need to be taught the rudiments of the Gospel anymore, and they know the shape of the Truth so that not everything they're told is what they consider sensible to accept. They will know what is true and what is not on the basis of their solid grounding in the Scriptures, so they don't need new tutoring in the Bible. Mature believers without the pastor-teaching gift already have a pastor-teaching ministry that they trust to keep providing them with spiritual food, so they are not looking for new places to learn. Mature believers with the pastor-teaching gift are themselves producing spiritual food if they are also being diligent in their preparation for ministry, so they don't need anyone to teach them the Bible anymore. That is how this works.

It does not mean that when you mature you can no longer learn from anyone, you can, but you will be judging everything you hear by what you have already learned, so that you really are not being tutored anymore. And if you are sticking with a specific pastor-teaching ministry, you are being constantly reminded of things you have already learned and you have someone to discuss any difficulties or new information with.

Question #52:
I'm so grateful for this and I'm sure there is much to gain from there but the greatest wisdom for me is to always seek the Spirit and hear what he would instruct me to do next for I am only an unworthy servant and know not how to lead myself. If He ever instructs me to, I will immediately contact you. But also remember that He has many other plantations apart from that you know of and we should be open to gain what we may from each as he leads us from one post to another. The Lord has also been very merciful to me, as to you and He will yet have more mercy on us and reveal more 'gnosis' to us directly through His Spirit of revelation and indirectly, men who have this Spirit.

Response #52:
I don't consider myself or the pastor-teaching ministry that I am training under to be the extent or the limit of the Church. But I don't expect anyone who knows the Truth, who has grown up spiritually to be very different from me or from the pastor-teacher who is helping me. There are certainly all kinds of believers and ministries out there and I pray for them all, but when one who has been trained in the Scriptures runs into another who has been, they know it.