Annihilationism, Universalism, Hell and Judgment

Hello Dr Luginbill,

I don't know if you remember me but you corresponded with me back in 2007-2008. Since then, a lot has happened, including some new understandings of Christianity. Some of these you may not agree with but I think on most of them I am on the right track. About that time I moved to England for family reasons. I still love America, always have and always will. So here I am now, retired living in the UK, trying to stay as positive as I can but still in pain of missing America and the people and hobbies I loved there will continue until I find a substitute source of fulfillment here. I am in the process of forsaking my idols and making Jesus my first love as never before, trying to spend at least an hour a day in reading the Word, Web commentaries, and prayer every morning. This helps to make up for a good deal of pain in missing my job and also family troubles [details omitted].

Which leads me to an area where by Gods grace I have achieved a substantial victory. For many years I was tormented by a harassing spirit of antichrist that would attack me through lower back pain with the repeated suggestion that Christianity was a myth, that testimonies were false, that I couldn't trust pastors because they were exaggerating the truth of what God was supposedly doing in their lives. Of course this made it very difficult to develop trusting relationships with brothers and sisters in Christ! The spirit of Antichrist attacked me especially vehemently over the past years because of my family troubles. I fought back with everything that was in me, repeatedly making a decision to believe, and doing a lot of reading of apologetics. Bottom line: First John 4:3 says it all. Any spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. I have been casting down every lofty spirit that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and learning to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. The attacks have weakened and Jesus is gradually becoming more and more real to me. I need the manifest presence of God at all times, to know that He'll never leave me, that only a willful and determined apostasy can break (Eph 4:30) the Seal unto Redemption.

Another area I have given a lot of thought to are the 3 main views of punishment after death:

1) Universalism, which I would love to believe but cant find enough Scriptural support for it with so many Scripture talking about fiery judgement. The good side of Universalism however it that it helps us to see that God really does want ALL to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

2) Then there is the predominant view of Eternal Torment that has been taught for about 1700 years. It has to do largely with the Greek words AION , AIONIOS and whether it , or its Hebrew counterpart OLAM, always have to mean never ending, in usage and context. Mt 25:41 is one of the main passages, as well as Luke 16, that the church has held onto to say that if AIONIOS means eternal life, it also has to mean eternal death when applied to the punishment.

3) Annihilationism, which I have come more and more to believe is the correct view, as have some evangelicals like John Stott, Clark Pinnock, Edward Fudge, and others. HOWEVER I wouldn't dare tell a new convert that Gods wrath was not eternal, because I cannot prove it and wouldn't want to lead someone into a false sense of security) but many of the judgement Scriptures in the Bible seem to refer to destruction rather than eternal torment. AION and AIONIOS are frequently used in Scripture to define an age, a definite period of time with beginning and end. AGE-LASTING would be a more correct rendering of AIONIOS, leaving God to be God and determine the just reward of every transgression (Heb:2:2). A Jew in Jesus time would see Gehenna as the garbage dump for the bodies of criminals. I was kept burning with unquenchable fire, a fire that would never go out until it had done its work of consuming the refuse. Isaiah 66:23 talks about undying worms and unquenchable fire consuming dead bodies, and this would be consistent with a Jewish understanding of Gehenna in Jesus' day. Still not a place I want anyone to go to, and its still better to lose an eye , hand, etc, than go there!

In Jude 7, it talked about Sodom and Gomorrah suffering the vengeance of eternal AIONIOS fire. Again, without a predisposition towards the doctrine of Eternal Torment in 100 AD, it would be seen by Christians and Jews of that era that the AIONIOS fire was unquenchable while it burned, destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, no man able to put it out-but its is certainty not burning today.

Just some thoughts! I don't expect you to agree with me, but do I have any real integrity in my beliefs if I am ashamed to share them with another brother? Thanks for listening,

Response #1:

Good to hear from you. You have had quite an Odyssey since last we corresponded! I am sorry to hear that your life has been so rough. It is frequently the case, however, for those of us who really do put the Lord Jesus first in our lives that those lives will not necessarily be "nice and peaceful" in the world's terms, but we can always have His "peace" even in the midst of the storm. That perspective is, as your witness shows, one we often have to fight manfully to maintain. But there is great reward in enduring with courage the assaults of the evil one – and nothing but disaster if we turn back instead:

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For, "In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay." 38 And, "But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back." 39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
Hebrews 10:35-39 NIV

The question of the fate of the unsaved dead is one I often get and have written quite a bit about it. I think those scholars who have convinced themselves that the unrighteous are annihilated have, in addition to rationalizing the scriptures, failed to take into account principles of theology which bear heavily on this question. In the first place, when it comes to animate creatures, what God creates is created forever. No spirit once created is ever destroyed. At least that is the logic of His creation from my reading of scripture. None of us are ever "thrown away" – especially not those created in the image of God – which brings me to the second point. The fundamental issue of human life (not to mention angelic life) is the question of our attitude toward God. He offers us blissful eternity, but it will be an eternity with Him. The question is whether or not we are willing to enjoy eternity with Him on His gracious terms or would rather be gods to ourselves regardless of the consequences. Unbelievers (and fallen angels) actually receive exactly what they want in this respect: an eternity separated from God – just as believers (and elect angels) receive just what we want: an eternity with God. Granted, the lake of fire is a terrible place just as the New Jerusalem is a wonderful place. But God is in the New Jerusalem and He is not in the lake of fire. That is why unbelievers are in the lake of fire: they desired a world/universe/existence without God. And that is why believers are in the New Jerusalem: we want to be with Him forever. The consequences of choosing self to the exclusion of God are an eternity without Him, and that necessitates a horrible existence (for He is not there – all blessing comes from Him and only cursing exists apart from Him). The consequences of choosing God to the exclusion of self are an eternity with Him, and that results in an existence beyond blessed (for He is there). In fact, for believers, the best thing about eternity will be His presence. And for unbelievers eternity will at least provide what they wanted: the absence of Him.

If it were a question of annihilation, why in the world would a resurrection of the unsaved be necessary? Why would they be in torments now (as opposed to having merely passed out of existence at death)? The whole point of the last judgment is punishment for the arrogant rejection of God's grace and mercy in Jesus Christ, choosing one's own will over God's will in a blasphemous and ungrateful way. Faced with the prospect of jumping into the lake of fire or running into God's arms, unbelievers prefer the lake of fire – because they are unwilling to yield their will to His WILL, even when the price is so horrific.

As to specific biblical evidence, in my view it is all one-way (see the links below), and even in this word-study you provide it seems to me pretty clear prima facie that eternal means eternal (that is what the Greek and Hebrew words mean on their face without recourse to creative spin). I am happy to discuss this further and take on specific passages if you wish (you'll find many of them treated at the links), but I do think that once the essence of the unbeliever and his/her choice is understood, namely, that he/she has used the precious image to become a god to him/herself and will not bow that personal "godhead" to the Creator and the Savior, then the disposition God has designed for all such appears not only just but necessary and appropriate in every way – and is in fact what all those who have rejected Jesus Christ have chosen (and would choose again in a thousand lifetimes). Here are those links:

Literal Hell

The Eternal Nature of the Last Judgment

The Problem of Unbelievers (in BB 4B)

The Last Judgment (in CT 6)

Against Universalism I: Free Will and the Image of God.

Against Universalism II: Only Believers are Saved.

Against Universalism III: Unbelievers in the Plan of God.

"Their worm" in Isaiah 66:24 (see Q/A #3)

Hoping and praying that all works out for you and yours, my friend.

In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #2:

Bob, Thanks for taking the time to write to me and your letter really lifted my spirits! My family goes to a Church of Christ over here. I go to worship, but I don't buy into their water baptism doctrine. On Eternal Torment, you and I are not quite as far apart as my first letter might have led you to believe. It makes sense that someone who, knowing the horrors of the Lake of fire, still chooses that Lake of Fire over being with God, being hard hearted to the point that they would never repent even in the intense torment of hell, could be justly be sent there for eternity. What I cannot see is God creating billions of humans knowing that they would fry forever in hell without having had a fair chance to choose for Him. That would make God more cruel than Hitler's WW2 concentration camps in Auschwitz, or Saddam Hussein. But if someone determines in their heart to never repent no matter what, and they choose hell ... God would be just to give them their choice. Revelation 16:8 talks about men who were scorched with great heat and still repented not. God is not a cruel Tyrant who laughs at the horrible screams of torment of people who would leave hell if they could! The only people who might be there forever are those who, in every possible circumstance, have deliberately chosen to reject God. This is the Eternal sin for which there in no forgiveness. No forgiveness, because it is an ongoing, perpetual, sin! (Mk 3:29)

I haven't given up completely on the idea that the wicked will ultimately be destroyed, but you and I at least strongly agree that Mercy triumphs over Judgement whenever possible. God looks at what our choices would have been under all possible circumstances, (Mt 11:20-24) and judges accordingly. Those who have, or would have had under different circumstances, even a smoldering wick's worth of faith will be saved, yet as through fire. Gods fire consumes whatever is evil. If a person is a believer who has works of wood, hay, stubble (1Co 3: 13-14) he will be saved, but his works will burn up. If there is no faith, then the person along with his works will be burned up (Mal 4:1).

Somehow, God will correct (Mal 3:2-3) whoever is correctable, but Scripture clearly shows some resist correction no matter how long the fire is applied (Jer:6:27-30)

Iron sharpens iron, and my blade may be a bit rusty, but I have to look at all the evidence and hear all sides of an argument, not just the ones I like. Even the best case scenario offered by Universalists, where hell is a place of purification in which everyone eventually repents, is so bad I don't want anyone to go there! Hell fire is so bad that even if it is not eternal and the wicked eventually burn up, I would not want a fellow human to endure it even for 5 minutes!

Thanks for writing and sharing!

Response #2:

You are very welcome.

I am also heartened by your witness of resilient faith which refuses to be quenched even in the crucible of testing. The evil one is always involved in these matters, but it is well to consider that as believers we possess eternal life, and in the blink of an eye we will be enjoying it forevermore with the One we love the most, our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! These two truths form a perfect "handshake", salvation positionally resulting inevitably in salvation experientially, and, rightly considered, they reduce the sliver of "world-time" to virtually nothing – except that it constitutes an opportunity to respond to Him whom we love so much and to be rewarded forever for so doing.

For those of us who have our hearts truly set on eternity and the New Jerusalem, death really is gain (Phil.1:21). All the arrows of the evil one cannot separate us from Christ's love, even if the devil is allowed to take away our lives (Rom.8:31-39). We can be made to suffer in our bodies and in our emotions, but only for a very short while – and only with the result that we are rewarded for sharing Christ's sufferings, provided we hold onto our good attitude in so doing (Rom.8:17; 2Cor.1:5; Phil.3:10; Col.1:24; 1Pet.4:12-13; cf. Mk.10:38-39; Acts 5:41; 2Cor.4:10-11; Gal.6:17; 1Thes.1:6; 2Thes.1:4-5; 2Tim.3:12).

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him.
Philippians 1:29 NIV

The creation of those "destined" to be cast into the lake of fire was a necessity if we who are willing to be obedient were to be created. God only creates what is perfect. Therefore this creation and process of history, angelic and human, is perfect. This must mean that God had to create the entire spectrum of human and angelic kind if He were to create any of us and give us genuine free will in the image of God. It had to be done this way, otherwise God might have done it a different way. And of this I am absolutely sure: all unbelievers go to hell of their own free will, and even if any life circumstance could be changed – short of actually taking away their choice – and even if they had many chances to do so, they would always make the same bad choice: self will over the WILL of God.

There is much about all of these issues at the link: BB 4B: Soteriology, a study which discusses all of these matters from a systematic point of view.

Keep fighting the good fight of faith, my friend!

In Jesus our dear Lord,

Bob L.

Question #3:

Thanks again Bob! You are encouraging me at a point that I really need it! To fully believe in Christ, we must come to the end of ourselves, really knowing that there is no hope in the things of this world. My hope is not in my family troubles disappearing, but in the One who has forgiven all my sins past. present and future. True Christian fellowship is God speaking His Truth from the heart of one brother to another, as we become real, transparent, and totally honest with Him and each other! I am determined to become vulnerable and more trusting with my brethren. The works of God they testify of, that I have not yet experienced ... I will accept at face value. I will not doubt their testimonies without good reason!

In John 9, Jesus heals a man born blind. the Pharisees were looking for every reason to discount the miracle, questioning the mans parents as well as the man himself. It upset their apple-cart, so to speak, and they would have had to acknowledge that Jesus Christ was of God. They refused to accept reasonable evidence of a miracle. In overcoming my tendency to a doubting Thomas mentality, I am seeking a more childlike faith. But I will continue to improve my understanding through my study of good unbiased apologetics. There are lots of good sources online. In Christ,

Response #3:

You're very welcome.

I certainly hope things work out for you "over there". Do feel free to write any time.

On "child-like faith", in my view our Lord's point is that we should accept God's truth without reservations and in complete trust – just like a child would believe us. I don't think it means failing to do detailed work to find out what the truth is (if I did, I wouldn't be doing this ministry). In my own experience, nothing is more powerful than the truth – accepted and believed. And it does bring us closer to Jesus in a very wonderful and dynamic way. No amount of emotion or good intentions can do this. Only the truth can do this.

In Jesus Christ who is the truth, the very Word of God,

Bob L.

Question #4:

Hi Bob,

Its Sunday evening, and God is revealing to me His great love and mercy, triumphing over every lofty spirit that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. It so heartens me that you believe that everyone will be given a fair chance to really accept Jesus Christ for who He is. If every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, then everyone, somehow, must have that opportunity to know Jesus is the Savior! There are a few scriptures that shed some light on this. Col 1:23 says that the gospel has been preached (past tense) to very creature under heaven. How is this possible? For a human standpoint, it could not mean that every person had orally been preached to. It isn't true now- even with our satellite technology- and it certainly wasn't true then! However, Revelation 14:6 and 7:9 give a clue: Rev 14:6 says that John saw an angel flying in mid air, having the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth-every nation, tribe, language and people. Rev 7:9 gives another clue: John saw a multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, proclaiming the salvation belongs to our God. It seems that there are more people in this multitude than the Gospel could ever reach effectively! Because God is no respecter of persons, he will reveal the true gospel to all the Cornelius types out there-those who would decide for Christ if only they could know the Truth. While these Scriptures in no way cancel out our Great Commission to preach the Gospel to every creature, they do give tremendous hope that no one will go to hell because they lived at the wrong time and the wrong place. God is too careful and loving to leave the salvation of billions to chance-depending on lackadaisical Christians to spread the gospel to every creature. I am guilty here like everyone else. As a dad, if I wanted to protect my child from serious injury I would tell him myself how to avoid injury, not wait for his brother to tell him. It also gives hope that those brainwashed with false doctrine will have a chance to know the real Truth about Jesus and make a fair decision for or against Him. Comments?

Response #4:

I'm encouraged to hear that you are doing well. The Word of truth is the fuel we need to get through this life, set afire by the Holy Spirit. God knows not only what we need but what we want / are willing to take. It is along those lines that I see the specifics of the Gospel. After all, natural revelation is given to the entire world. As it says in Psalm 19:3-4: "There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world." (NIV). You can find more about this at the link: Natural Revelation. The bottom line is that God made us to need Him, put in our hearts the intuitive knowledge that He made us, and invites us with the whole creation and with the entire set of natural imperatives to seek Him (i.e., not only does everyone know He exists, but we all know we are going to die, we know we are imperfect, and we know that absent His help we will not be able to stand up to His perfect judgment).

He is the One who gives us all life and breath and everything else. (26) From one man he created all the nations of mankind – that they should come to inhabit the whole face of the earth. He fixed and determined the specific times and extent of their habitations, (27) to the end that they should seek out this God, that they might go in search of Him and so might find Him – for His is not far off from any one of us.
Acts 17:25b-27

In other words, the motivational part of the gospel is universal. The only reason that many do not receive the gospel message itself is that they are not interested in getting it. And indeed, many who do get it (no doubt the vast majority) do not want it either. That doesn't mean we should not keep giving it to them, but it does mean that we can relax about any worries that any single person in human history went to hell for lack of information. People have the image of God and only go to hell because they would rather keep that free will to themselves rather than give it back to God under any circumstances. Here is how I translate the Colossians passage:

(22) Yet God has now accomplished reconciliation [for you] through the death of Christ in His physical body so that you may stand before Him as holy, without blemish and free from accusation – [this you will do] (23) if you remain solidly grounded and firmly fixed in the faith, and un-moved from your hope in the gospel which you have heard proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which [gospel] I, Paul, have become a minister.
Colossians 1:23

The key phrase "in all creation" is singular in Greek and refers to "the world" generally rather than to each individual person particularly. In Revelation we are told, it is true, that there will be occasions when the gospel is supernaturally given worldwide – but the stubbornness of those who receive it will be similarly resolute. We can only thank God for our supple hearts – and strive to keep them responsive to the Lord Jesus in every way, seeking to please Him by doing what He really wants rather than we want or what we "want Him to want" or even what we "convince ourselves He wants" us to do in this life.

In the One who is our everything, dear Lord Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #5:

Bob, thank you for the links and good words. I am sort of confused as to what difference it makes when a Christian is debating a Christian as to annihilationism, as opposed to a Christian speaking with an unbeliever. I've been lurking at my old site and have watched, in amazement, as this person defends it with such swiftness and authority, meaning they have scriptures at the drop of a hat to post up. I can see the subtle twisting of meanings and the dropping of 'Greek' interpretations, but it still sounds very convincing for the younger Christian who may be reading. I guess my question is, should we care if other Christians believe this; as I would find it sort of normal for the unbeliever.

And thank you for your continued prayers for me and my family. I sure need them now, as I've been feeling a sort of foreboding of something big and not so pleasant surrounding me.

In Christ,

Response #5:

You're most welcome. As to your latest question, of course every biblical principle is important, those that are expressly explained by scripture being even more important to "get right", with those which are ubiquitous in the Bible being the most dangerous to "get wrong". The last judgment of unbelievers falls into all three categories. Since the final result for those who reject Jesus Christ is laid out in scripture in crystal clear terms, and since it is only by willfully dismissing and arrogantly twisting countless verses that a person could even make an argument for the truth not being true, any and all who advocate such teachings are most likely not even saved. It is a very common feature among those who have fallen away or who resent God for whatever reason to wish to justify their false beliefs, which are really nothing more than personal wishes they know (or at least once knew) in their heart of hearts to be wrong. Moreover, it is a typical human "thing" to feel subconsciously that if others can be convinced of some falsehood that the falsehood will then become true. Ridiculous as that sounds when laid out so starkly, history is filled with examples, the most pertinent one for believers being the devil's convincing of his followers that rebelling against the Lord would be safe – and apparently becoming convinced of this lie himself through the encouragement of others believing it.

So, yes, we should care if other believer buy into such a monstrous lie. Lies are like gangrene (2Tim.2:17). They eat away at the fabric of the truth in our hearts as they breed the rejection of truth and the acceptance of more lies. That is how apostasy happens, and precisely the formula antichrist will use to detach one third of the true Church from the faith in the coming Tribulation.

Keep fighting the good fight! Your courage in Jesus Christ is an inspiration to me and all who observe you, men and angels both. Whatever may come, He will shepherd us through, even if we have to walk the valley of the death-shadow for a time, until we all reach Zion and receive the rewards that accrue to those who follow Him faithfully.

In our dear Lord,

Bob L.

Question #6:

To Robert Luginbill:

For the last 4-5 weeks I have been trying to see if I could possibly get a definitive answer to this perplexing mystery — What is hell? I have found that everything on both sides of this issue is refutable to one degree or another. Everything except for one thing. Man is mortal. Therefore, he cannot be immortal in hell. However, I do see one possibility for you to refute this evidence.

Show me where "mortal" — ONLY REFERS TO THE BODY. Do that, and you will win the argument. Fail to do that, and you will lose the argument. You may say, "Oh, that is a gross oversimplification." But I have no other choice because as I said — everything else is refutable to one degree or another. So everything else is useless. Anyways, it all comes down to this, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't know. You may actually find such evidence. Just don't use 1Corinthians 15:52-53 because verse 50 refutes that. Oh — no intellectual mumbo-jumbo! Show me the verse or verses, and keep your explanation very short and simple!

Yours in Christ,

Response #6:

Dear Friend,

With all due respect, this is a Bible teaching ministry, one of whose key service is to answer questions about the scriptures and the truths it contains. It is not a debating society, and I only engage in disputation where there is some purpose, such as a false teaching which needs to be put right. The answer to this and your previous questions are all available at Ichthys – and I am certainly happy to direct you to the appropriate links and also to clarify legitimate concerns. But you do not really seem to have a question. Indeed, you do not even provide a scripture about which you wish clarification (or even a particular statement or teaching of this ministry with which you disagree). Lobbing up English words and vague philosophical concepts is not proof of anything nor does it invite any sort of profitable discussion. If you really would like to know what the Bible says about hell and the last judgment and condemnation and the like, here are some links that spell these things out in great detail:

The Last Judgment

Literal Hell

Against Universalism I: Free Will and the Image of God.

Against Universalism II: Only Believers are Saved.

Against Universalism III: Unbelievers in the Plan of God.

Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #7:

I was suspecting that you wouldn't be able to find any evidence to the contrary. Anyways, ceasing to exist is the only answer that makes any sense. I mean, how could you possibly believe that all those young children who died just a few weeks, or a few months after reaching the age of accountability would have to spend – AN ETERNITY in hell? That is not justice by any stretch of the imagination. You remind of the Pharisees and Sadducees, who looked like men of God, and who acted like men of God, but who had no truth in them at all. And by the way, I WASN'T LOOKING FOR A DEBATE. I WAS LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH. – AND NOW I HAVE IT.

Response #7:

Again, you are failing to read carefully the emails and links I send you.

Everyone in hell has chosen against God. He knows the hearts of all – we do not.

He is just.

All that has been explained directly and in links many times now.

In my humble opinion, you need to decide whether or not you are a student or a teacher, and arrange your approach accordingly.

In Jesus our dear Lord,

Bob L.

Question #8:

To Robert Luginbill: Well, I have finally come to a conclusion. You can take a look at my reasoning. If you find anything wrong then you can tell me. But it all looks very reasonable and Biblical to me. I know that you wrote to me and said this is not a debating society. But please bear with me. This email is very short and clear. Please just take a look.

Fallen mankind is mortal, short, sweet and simple. Even a child can understand what that means.

And it is not just the body that is mortal. It is the ENTIRE PERSON THAT IS MORTAL.

Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

Obviously, people sinning is a spiritual thing. It is not just the physical body.

Ezekiel 18 20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

So nobody can say that the body is mortal, but the soul is eternal.

NEVER does the Bible say that the soul, or anything about man is inherently immortal — NEVER.

And God does not want man to live forever in his sinful state as Genesis 3:22-24 clearly shows.

Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Only those who have been saved by Jesus Christ will live forever.

John 6:58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

Those who are still in their sins when they die are mortal; and therefore they will cease to exist. THEY ARE MORTAL. Nobody can refute this. It is a simple Biblical truth that absolutely no one can change or redefine — no how, no way.

AND SO, YOU CAN'T EXIST FOREVER IN HELL IF YOU ARE MORTAL.

And so again, I apologize for bothering you these past days. But this is really important to me. It is such a heavy, heavy topic.

Blessings to you and your family,

Response #8:

Dear Friend,

The problem with your reasoning is that it is not logical. You state that the "body is mortal". That is certainly true. You then go on immediately to conclude that "the entire person is mortal" – but you do so without any evidence for this proposition. The Bible, of course, is theological, rather than logical, and since God is the Creator and Sustainer and Director and Judge and Sovereign of the universe, He is free to do things in any what He pleases, even if human beings deem these things "illogical". For that reason, even if you were to provide some logical "proof" for the mortality of the human spirit – which as I say you omit attempting to do here – you would not for that reason be any closer to the truth. The only way to find out the truth of these matters is to consult scripture and see what God has said about them.

Because sin involves the will and the will comes from the spirit, that does not at all mean (logically) that the spirit is mortal; even if it did, given that we have plenty of biblical evidence for the eternal existence of the righteous (in the new heavens and the new earth) and the unrighteous too (in the lake of fire), you would still have to provide some biblical evidence for the destruction of spirits – yet scripture never gives us any such indication (all of the evidence points the other way).

"The Soul". I despair at this point of having confidence that repeating this conversation again will make any difference, but in the interest of pedantry I will say one final time: "human beings are dichotomous possessing a spirit and a body" and "the soul is a word best left out of biblical discussions because what that word 'means' when found in English translations of the Bible is not at all the same as how it is used in contemporary English". You use "soul" to mean, essentially, "spirit". Is that a problem? It is when and if you go the Bible and find the word "soul" in an English version and assume that it means the same as "spirit" or "the immaterial part of the human being" – which it never does. "Soul" in the Bible is nephesh (Heb.) / psyche (Gr.), and refers to the whole person (frequently with an emphasis on the inner person) who is, in every case, a spirit-in-a-body. The placing by God of the spirit in the body is what results in the "person" coming to life (Gen.2:7). Again, it might not be necessary to harp upon the distinction were it not for the fact that people who don't understand the difference go to English versions of the Bible which use the word "soul" in a misleading way (i.e., some may suppose it means "immaterial part" as opposed to the "material part" or body, which it never does), and then draw horribly wrong conclusions as a result of their misunderstanding of a translation.

As to the last part of your email, I find myself mightily confused. I will certainly affirm that only those who are believers are saved and will live forever with Jesus Christ. However, even though I am a believer, I am still "mortal" in the sense that I still exist in a sinful body – as we all do here on earth. So according to your logic, everyone is going to hell (or going to cease to exist – although as stated and proved many times now no one created will ever cease to exist); however I am very much counting on being in heaven and not in hell – because of my faith in Jesus Christ (not any personal lack of mortality of sinless perfection), and the righteousness I have through that faith (rather than through any works of my own doing).

The last part really is the answer to your question and the key to removing your heavy burden. Jesus Christ, after all, has already died for the sins of all mankind. They have all been paid for, all been atoned for. The grace necessary for forgiveness, therefore, is ready and waiting for all. When we accept the gift of Christ through faith, God considers us righteous, not because of our own acts or conduct – for how could mere mortals who continue to sin and continue to inhabit bodies of sin throughout their earthly lives have any hope of salvation if that were the standard? No, God considers us righteous because of what Christ did in dying for all of our sins. That is the basis for forgiveness and salvation, and it is accessed through faith.

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
Romans 9:30 NIV

The righteous live forever; the unrighteous are condemned to hell, "the second death", as it is called, because of the horrible nature of eternal lake of fire.

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
John 5:29-29 NKJV

The only "operative" question in the discussion we have been having, therefore, is to which of these two categories above the mentally incapacitated and those who die before reaching accountability belong. Since God is just, and since it would be unjust to condemn to the lake of fire someone who did not have any sort of fair chance to express his/her free will as to where he/she desired to spend eternity, we can safely conclude that these individuals will be with those of us who believe in heaven after death, and in the New Jerusalem for all eternity. This, by the way, is one of the reasons why these verses in Revelation are literally true:

And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Revelation 5:9 NIV

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Revelation 7:9 NIV

Because even in imponderable distant times and places, some have died very young (or been mentally deficient), and in each and every case God's purpose was for them to be saved, not having had any chance to reject Him and His Son.

God is just to do so, because Christ died for all.

I hope you are still reading, because this is the most important part of the email. Many people completely misunderstand the grace and love and mercy and goodness of God. That is amazing, because what more could He do for us than condemn His own dear Son to pay the penalty for each and every one of our sins? That sacrifice is mind-boggling, defying human comprehension – but it is the foundation of the universe and the plan of God, not to mention our salvation. Having done this for all, why does God condemn anyone? That is really the question to ask. Every human being, every spirit He has created, was written into the Book of Life before creation was initiated (see the link). The implications of this blessed truth are profound. What it means is that God intended since before He created the world for all to be saved. How, then, is anyone's name blotted out of the book so as to be lost? The answer is, "by their own free will". To be saved, all a person has to do is to "not say 'no!' to God".

So you see, your essential predisposition towards the idea of salvation is backwards. Not only does God not intend any to be lost, and not only has He paid for all to be saved, but it is also only by personal unwillingness, through rejection of Christ or willful refusal to have anything to do with God, that anyone is lost (see the link: "God's plan to save you")! What this means for the question at hand is that far from condemning people who don't have a "chance to believe in Christ", all individuals who do not have the opportunity to reject God are automatically saved – because the "default" position of the plan of God is salvation (not condemnation). Recognizing this blessed truth is the key to understanding God's grace and mercy - - and also His absolute justice in respecting the free will of those who willfully resist spending eternity with Him and our dear Lord Jesus.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
John 3:17-21 NKJV

God made us to bless us, not to curse us, and has made it possible for us to be blessed in spite of our sins. We only inherit cursing instead of blessing when we reject His Gift, Jesus Christ the only Savior. God is not trying to condemn us – He has done all that needs to be done to save us (if only we are willing to be saved).

In hopes that this is help to you and your growth in the Lord Jesus and His truth,

Bob L.

Question #9:

I just had a study with my daughter when she came home from school and we went over your teaching called "The problem of Science and the Bible" (from part 5 of the Satanic Rebellion series.) We were very pleased with her because she purposely failed a test in biology that dealt with the topic of evolution and instead she stood up for the belief in creationism. One of the questions on the test was a "true/false" question in which the question was: "Evolution is only a theory" and Laura answered "True" to that, but the teacher marked it as wrong. It's a real shame how teachers are trying to brainwash students about these matters and even forcing them to fail tests if they won't believe in their teachings concerning evolution.

I have a former friend who only a year ago believed in much the same way that you and I do. Now he has made a full change in his thinking. He teaches along these lines now and these are some of his quotes:

"Being a child of hell has nothing to do with a literal never ending punishment by a wrathful God for billions upon billions of years. What foolishnes that we could be so deceived to think that God would ever act in such a way. Such belief violates every attribute of God's character and His righteousness and just judgments. Such a punishment is not just by any measure of reasoning. Do you really think that God sending 99% of people to an eternal torment in a literal hell brings glory to God? Believing in the lie of eternal torment in hell is not good news any way you rationalize it. Holding to this lie will keep you in fear and trusting in your own strength and intelligence to find God."

Is there any wise way to try and rationalize with people that think this way? Some of us have tried, but he now refers to us as 'dogs', 'carnal', 'not of the faith', 'unbelievers', 'not yet saved' etc. He tells us we should not be speaking with him, but instead that we should be out warning everyone in the world about hell if we truly believe in it . Have you ever tried to reason with people who think this way, and what is the best way to go about it? Or is it simply unwise to even attempt to say anything to them? He was once such a humble person who seemed to understand the main areas of truth and many cared for him, but we don't really know how to help him anymore.

What is amazing is that he knows the bible so so well and can quote scriptures to support his views much faster than Christians who do believe differently than him and believe that the bible teaches about an eternal hell. You might be able to keep up with him, but most who believe differently than he does cannot keep up with him.)

I have one more question. I was looking at an article which supported the 7 millennial days of human history and the article mentioned that several early Christians supported the concept of the 7 millennial days of human history such as Barnabus, Martyr, Irenaeus, Lactantius, Methodius etc. The article is here...

http://www.facebook.com/l/dAQEjYNAbA
QFlnHHXYPhSUzY_mP58nsJpilwDOM2W1lNWSg/
www.ldolphin.org/angels297.html

I was wondering if you learned of this teaching through some of these early Christian writings. The thought had crossed my mind before about history being divided into 7 (1000 year) days, but I had never heard anyone actually teach about it till I found your site. I am loving learning about it in great detail as you are sharing on your site and it truly does make a great deal of sense! I am wondering how God will change the world during the millennial period since I sort of doubt that it will still be filled with highways, Walmarts and McDonalds during that time. I will continue to read your writings and see how that is to work out.

God's wondrous grace and peace be with you!

Response #9:

Good to hear from you as always.

I have a vague memory of bumping into a (rudimentary) version of the seven millennial days in a Bible survey book very many years ago (seminary?). I thought it was Halley's Bible Handbook, but I managed to find that on my shelf and it doesn't seem to do any more than mention the passages which state that a "day is like a thousand years" to the Lord in the context of the six/seven days and without any such comment.

When it comes to the true doctrines of the Word of God, they are true and available for all who are really interested in learning them, taught by the Spirit and perspicuous in the scriptures. That is true whatever name we give them and wherever we heard of them first or even if we "figured it out" independently of anyone else. I am very pleased that I was taught the Trinity (can't remember where I first heard about it), and, honestly, would be pleased as punch to find every truth of scripture systematically analyzed in an absolute correct way in some treasure-trove somewhere. Looking for just that was the impetus for and genesis of this ministry. I am always encouraged when I do find someone who has come to the same truth as I have on any point of doctrine. To me that is proof positive that the Spirit is at work and is teaching all who really want to draw closer to Jesus Christ through the Word of God.

As to your friend, I have written rather a lot on this particular topic. The most important links are as follows:

Against Universalism I: Free Will and the Image of God.

Against Universalism II: Only Believers are Saved.

Against Universalism III: Unbelievers in the Plan of God.

Literal Hell

Eschatology Issues II: Angelic bodies, heaven and hell, Satan and the Nephilim, etc.

To "cut to the chase" on this issue, the theological problem with the point of view adopted by your friend is that takes free will out of the equation. And if there is no need for free will and a time and place for us to exercise it, then why are we going through this experience called life in the first place? Why does God allow suffering, in that case? Why does He then allow death? Why didn't He just make us all perfect and eternal immediately and without the possibility of sin and without the necessity for suffering?

The truth is, nothing about creation and life makes any sense whatsoever without accepting the fact that we are all here for a purpose, and that the purpose is to choose, for God or for ourselves. People who dispute this in any way are in actuality only putting a coat of armor over their hearts so as not to have to face that uncomfortable truth. They have made their decision and would rather not have to contemplate the eternal consequences of what they have chosen. Indeed, if human beings did not have the ability to blind themselves with their own arrogance, it is hard to see how the choice we all face here on earth would be a fair one: if everyone really did have to live every day every step of the way with a sure, certain, and pellucid understanding of their own mortality, their sinfulness, and the coming judgment and the reality of condemnation for eternity, well, that would be too much for most to take, and many would choose for God without really wanting Him. As it is, the fact that so many, like your friend, not only have rejected Him but also feel free to spin all manner of falsehoods about Him, His character and His truth, only goes to show that the hardness of heart God makes possible for those who want nothing to do with the truth really is an absolutely effective system: it allows all who want to do so to self-select for an eternity where they won't have to have anything to do with God, and to do so without the otherwise unavoidable reality that shouts from every corner of His creation getting in the way of their true heart-decision.

I always go back to the cross. The cross is the bedrock of everything. It would be difficult to underestimate it, and it is impossible to properly appreciate it. God could create an infinite number of universes infinitely larger than ours and do so in the blink of an eye. He could populate them with abundantly more and abundantly more gifted creatures than us. But in fact He only created this one, the one perfect one. We know it is the perfect one because it is to this one universe, this one world, that Jesus Christ came. For God who is independent of time and space to become a true human being is a sacrifice that boggles the mind. For Him to endure what Jesus endured and suffer what Jesus suffered in His life of trouble and in running the gauntlet to the cross takes away one's power of speech. But for our Lord to do what He did on the cross, what He had to do if we were going to be rescued from the grave and from the lake of fire, namely, dying in the darkness for all of ours sins, paying the entire price, the entire penalty, taking the entire punishment for all the sins of everyone, even those who reject Him, is beyond sublime, beyond understanding, and ineffably beyond comprehension. It is the only thing in history worth mentioning – it is the good news.

If there were no hell, why did Jesus have to die spiritually as He did to save us from it?

And once this day of life is done, there is no more sacrifice for sin for a person to grasp onto. The Passover lamb had to be eaten that night – it could not be left until morning (Ex.34:25). Likewise, this night of tears called life will pass by as well. We who have eaten His body and drunk His blood – putting our faith in Christ – will awake to the glorious dawn of life eternal; all others will find it too late to partake. And if they had really wanted to do so in their heart of hearts, they would have done so – they all had the chance.

Here are some of the more pertinent links to discussions which approach the "problem" for this point of view:

Choosing Hell: Questions about Salvation and the Love of God.

Free-Will Faith and the Will of God

Free-Will Faith in the Plan of God.

Free-Will Faith in Salvation

Unbelievers, Free Will, and the Plan of God

Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #10:

Hi Bob,

How do you reconcile these two verses?

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.' (Matthew 10:28)

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name' (Revelation 14:11)

Sincerely,

Response #10:

In Luke's version, only the word "body" is used (Lk.12:4-5). In any case, the key here is the word "soul" which means "the life", and, particularly in this context, the present physical life which the person in question is presently enjoying (i.e., the "soul" is not a tertium quid [see the link]; rather it is a synonym for the "heart" or the physical life of the person here on earth). All who despise God's solution will have their lives and present bodies destroyed, but they will not be annihilated: every spirit the Lord creates is created forever. Rather, since they have chosen to live eternally without Him, they will get what they wish. However, all blessing flows from God alone, so that an eternity without Him is an eternity without any blessing whatsoever (in fact, just the opposite). For more, please see the link: Biblical Anthropology II: 'Soul sleep', & dichotomy vs. trichotomy (this will lead you to other appropriate links). And more on this topic:

Against Universalism I: Free Will and the Image of God.

Against Universalism II: Only Believers are Saved.

Against Universalism III: Unbelievers in the Plan of God.

Yours in Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #11:

Thank you Brother

Have another question. I was asked by a family member about hell. She was once a Jehovah witness . But now a baptist but doesn't fully follow the teaching. She mention to me God does not send people to be burned continually and said the word hell was never in the bible or hades but gehenna is mentioned in the bible and it refers to a place out side the city. She got high verbally again about the fact God will not send people to be punish in fire for ever that the fire brings things to and end. It burns up every thing there nothing left. That the fire completely destroys every thing that is in it. What I did I shared these scriptures without the word hell or hades and gehenna.

She said that the story of Lazarus and the rich man didn't actually mean he was in a place of torment but was an analogy about rich people and the poor. Basically she does not see eternal punishment. I shared these scripture that does not have hell in it or hades and she claims when Jesus mention hell that is a pagan word and that Jesus and God would not ever allow eternal punishment and that was not what He meant. So in what way could all this be explained if possible in a way without hell or hades. I was wondering what it is actual saying in Aramaic/Hebrew.

Response #11:

In terms of God's character, people chose hell for themselves. The Father has done absolutely everything for everyone so that they may avoid hell by cleansing away their sins in the blood of His own dear Son. The only people who go to hell are those who refuse to accept God's grace. Sadly, in the history of the human race, this includes the vast majority of people who have ever lived. That just goes to show the hardness of the human heart, and what giving us the image of God means: we are free to subordinate that free will to God and accept His solution to our common problems of mortality, sin and judgment – or to pretend we don't need God, are like God, and can exist without God (Satan's system of lies; see the link).

In terms of what the Bible says, it seems nearly ridiculous to have to prove to people that there is a hell in the Bible. Any unbeliever reading the Bible honestly would admit that this is what the Bible teaches – even if said unbeliever doesn't believe it. This denial of hell is a dangerous false doctrine which has been around for a long time, but one which is being much ballyhooed of late for some reason. Your defense of the truth included here seems to me quite good. I have indeed written a good deal on this subject and will give you the links below. A couple of brief comments first. Scripture uses a number of words for hell – as it (and we) have synonyms for all sorts of things. The fact that the English word "hell" does not occur in the Bible doesn't have any more significance than the fact that English word "God" does not occur in the Bible. The Bible is written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The only time there is a correspondence between English words and the words of the original scriptures is when we transliterate or directly borrow a word (like "baptize") instead of translating into a corresponding English Word. "Hades", for example, is a borrowed word, a transliteration ("hell" would be a possible translation), and Hades most certainly does occur in the Bible as a term for the entire underworld (e.g., Matt.11:23; 16:18; Lk.10:15; 10:23; Rev.1:8; 6:8; 20:13-14; Acts 2:27; 2:31). As to the story of Lazarus, Jesus doesn't say it's a parable; He says these things happened. If we could use this argument, namely, that "it's only an analogy", we could essentially throw anything out of the Bible that didn't agree with what we preferred. A lot of people do that to the entire book of Revelation, for example. They have only themselves to blame for the damage done thereby to their spirituality by denying the truth of the Word of God and encouraging others to do the same (Rev.22:18-19).

Here are those links:

Literal Hell

Choosing Hell: Questions about Salvation and the Love of God.

The Last Judgment

The Lake of Fire

Against Universalism I: Free Will and the Image of God.

Against Universalism II: Only Believers are Saved.

Against Universalism III: Unbelievers in the Plan of God.

Please feel free to write back about any of the above.

In Jesus our dear Lord who has saved us from death and hell through His blood.

Bob L.

Question #12:

I was also giving this by my family member. Would you mind researching it/ I don't know who the writer is but I like your help very much on the matter. God Bless and thank you

Response #12:

Thanks for your emails and apologies for the delay. To be honest, I don't have the time to do a point by point refutation of multi-page, third party tracts like this. Moreover, the links previously provided to you do address all of these well-worn points in some detail, if not in the order presented here. Also, to be quite frank, I have learned the hard way by experience that even if one does this for someone who has blinded their eyes to the truth they probably won't even bother to read it. A better approach, in my view, is to confront such people with actual scriptures one by one, especially if you have a relationship with the person in question. It is also important to stick with one issue at a time. There are about six or so related issues swirling around in these documents and it is very common when in debates with such individuals that if you stump them on one they will just shift to another. When confronted with such hard-heartedness, our Lord picked very simple and solid ground to expose the true underlying facts.

I would start with the erroneous notion that God doesn't condemn anyone, and ask for an explanation of quite clear scriptures which teach just the opposite. For example:

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
John 3:17-18

These are our Lord Jesus' own words. They show clearly that God the Father does not want to condemn anyone, that He has done absolutely the most for the world so as to make salvation available by sacrificing His own Son for the world's sins, BUT that those who refuse to believe "stand condemned already". In other words, these verses show the Love of God wishing to save, the Mercy of God in providing a way for sinners to be saved, but also the Justice of God in condemning all who choose to throw this love and mercy right back into the Father's face. Being "condemned" is pretty clear. After condemnation of unbelievers is accepted, one can move onto what that condemnation means:

(7) "The one who conquers (i.e., maintains the victory of faith to the end of life: 1Jn.5:4) will inherit these things (i.e., the blessings of the New Jerusalem), and I will be His God and he himself will be my son. (8) But as for the cowardly and unbelieving and foul and murderers and the sexually immoral and those involved in the occult and idolaters and all those who are liars (i.e., all who for a variety of reasons rejected Christ) – their portion (i.e., "inheritance") will be in the lake burning with fire and sulfur which is the Second Death."
Revelation 21:7-8

These are God the Father's words, and they lay out very graphically the difference between the eternal blessings of the believer and the eternal fate of the unbeliever. Their fate is the lake of fire. After it is established that condemnation for unbelief leads to the lake of fire, we can move onto what that means in terms of its duration:

"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;' "
Matthew 25:41 NASB

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Matthew 25:46 NIV

These are also Jesus' words. The fire is described as "eternal", meaning that those cast in will be tormented there forever, not subjected to annihilation, and the punishment is also eternal, which can only means it lasts forever, just as in the case of the devil, the beast, and the false prophet:

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 NIV

This is the biblical definition of hell, as Jesus tells us, "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched'" (Mk.9:48 NKJV).

There are of course many more passages and many more arguments that might be marshaled in support, but "keeping it simple" is, I find, important in trying to get through to people who might on some level still be willing to see and accept the truth. Many of the "proofs" offered in the tracts provided have to do with quibbling over otherwise clear definitions and counting up the number of times words occur in the Bible. The Bible does not even need to tell us one time that we are going to die, that we are no good, and that we will have to stand before a righteous God with nothing to say in our own defense when we do – that is the common inheritance of all mankind in the conscience God gave us and in the truth about life He has written in the universe in broad, bold letters in all He has created (Rom.1:18-32; see the link: "Natural Revelation"). Yes, heaven and salvation are mentioned much more often than hell and damnation: that is the gospel, the good news that we are saved from the condition we can all see with our own two eyes . . . through faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. People who have turned this all upside down are usually trying to bury the truth they know and find disagreeable for whatever reason with substitute pseudo-truths such as the ones included in this document. The best we who believe the real truth can do is to confront them with parts of it which are irrefutable – and, blessedly, the Bible is chock full of these.

In the dear Lord Jesus who died for all our sins,

Bob L.

Question #13:

Dear Doctors,

Please consider the following treatise I have written:

Thank you for being thick skinned & armored by God & for sitting quietly through the night, long enough to hear the whispers of the Beloved. Blessings, forgiveness of sins & eternal life with the living God be yours and with yours.

I have no degrees, accolades or badges of my own, look to wounds of Jesus not to me to my pampered flesh. My words are written in pencil & not chiseled in stone.

http://JesusChristIstheTruth.YolaSite.com

http://MyReligiousQuestionsViews.YolaSite.com

Response #13:

Dear Friend,

Were it up to me, I think I too might just "prefer" a doctrine which at least alleviated of eternal suffering those who fail to submit to God's requirement for salvation. On the other hand, it's not what I "prefer" that matters but what is the actual truth. And the actual truth of scripture is that there is a literal hell. As with most other issues of scripture, straying from the truth has all sorts of negative side-effects and unintended consequences. It also makes the "bigger picture" that much harder to comprehend. Once God makes a spirit, that spirit is eternal; but the hypothesis you propose is opposed to that truth. God's plan is perfect, and that perfection entails that all He has done is done and cannot be undone, but the hypothesis you propose calls that perfection into question: He has to "uncreate" those He created. God's plan is founded on the principle of free-will; but the hypothesis you propose alleviates those who have chosen against God of suffering the consequences of their choice, and thus calls into question whether or not our will is really free after all – and whether or not we are "for real": if God can undo them, why cannot He also undo us at some future point? Blessedly, the consequences of creation meant the cross, and the incarnation and sacrifice of Christ have wed the deity to us who believe for all eternity. In the end, God's plan and its perfection are playing out just as He has ordained, and those who reject Him receive precisely what they bargained for and what they wanted: an eternity apart from God. Whereas we who love Him will receive precisely what it is we want the most: to be with Him and our dear Lord Jesus forever in eternal life.

If interested in pursuing this further, please see these links:

Literal Hell

The nature of hell and the last judgment

The Last Judgment

The Lake of Fire

The Problem of Unbelievers

In Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob Luginbill

Question #14:

Dear Bob

Thank you for your prompt reply. I gather that the devil who weakened the nations does not refer to one person who could have caused the current economic recession. This is of great relief to hear. I became a born again Christian some years ago, then after I gave my life to the Lord, I had some issues [details omitted]. Your website is great, very informative. I read it regularly. Is there any truth in the saying "When the devil is found, it becomes the last days", have you ever heard that before? Also, I've been reading a lot about the three different perspectives, Universalism, Annihilation and Traditionalism. How do we know which one is true? I've been reading about the Traditionalist view where the unsaved are said to burn for all eternity. I've been reading others where annihilation seems plausible. I'm confused about the whole thing. What if one does not want to live forever, why can't one not just die. There are so many points of view. I personally don't believe the Lake of Fire will burn for all eternity with billions of unsaved burning while the saved bask in heaven and New Earth. When God says He'll make all things new, is hell still burning with all the unsaved burning when all the new things are made on the New Earth?

Response #14:

Good to hear from you again. As to your first question, I have never heard the statement "When the devil is found, it becomes the last days". I can assure you that it is not in the Bible. I do believe we are close to the end, however, and for a whole host of reasons. The two series I linked before, Satanic Rebellion and Coming Tribulation (and many of the email responses at Ichthys), will fill in the details as to why.

As to hell, many people are reluctant to accept these biblical truths, but I can assure you that hell is a literal and eternal place, all though not technically part of the heavens and the earth in strictly biblical terms (see the link for a diagram of the true "biblical geography" of these things), so that the lake of fire will not be affected by the destruction of the present creation and its replacement. I can also assure you that both annihilationism and universalism are incorrect. On the latter please see the following links:

Against Universalism I: Free Will and the Image of God.

Against Universalism II: Only Believers are Saved.

Against Universalism III: Unbelievers in the Plan of God.

As to the former, once God creates a spirit, that spirit is eternal. Only our present bodies are mortal. This life is all about where we want to spend eternity, and we are here to "self-select" for heaven or hell. Unbelievers want heaven – but only on their own terms: they are unwilling to subordinate their will to the WILL of God: they want a universe and an eternity without God, just like the devil does. They will get their wish, albeit in a place separated from God which must therefore by definition be a place of cursing and not of blessing. The only blessing that exists in this world is because of God and from God. Taking God out of the mix takes His blessings out too, and such a place could only be described as "hell". This issue is actually very well known to all unbelievers (although they often won't admit it), and the last judgment will make it absolute clear to us all that everyone who goes to hell chose that option deliberately because of an unwillingness to accept the sacrifice of Christ or to be obedient to God thereby (see the link).

After all, God did everything that could be done for every unbeliever: He gave up His own dear Son to die for their sins so that they could be saved merely by saying the word. If they are unwilling to accept this gracious offer, what more can God do? The only thing He is unwilling to do is to revoke the free-will choice we all have to make in this life and are here in this life to make. And if we refuse to stand on the work of Christ, we must stand on our own "works" – which can only lead to condemnation (as everyone knows in their heart of hearts).

Please do feel free to write me back about any of the above.

In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #15:

Robert,

How have you been? I need some clarification on certain things. There are a lot of misconception of sound biblical doctrines because of context, particularly as it relates to God's mercy for the unbelievers and the 2nd death. I have a couple of questions I hope you can enlighten me. I did not find this on your site but maybe I have missed it.

1. Since God's character has always and never will change; how does His mercy extends to unbelievers when they die and does this have anything to do the with the Second death?

Basically, my question is the Lake of Fire (ghenna) actually eternal or will be only used to refine unbelievers to come to belief in Christ?

2. Since all man are born sinful, what happened to infants or mentally incapable people? Will God resurrect them in a spiritual body to give them an opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior? I guess I am trying to reconcile the mercy and grace of God to eternal wrath.

Thanks for your help

In Christ our Savior and Lord

Response #15:

Good to hear back from you.

As to your questions:

1) God's mercy knows no bounds – except the bounds that people put on it by refusing to accept it. This life and the entire plan of God pivot around the cross and our response to it. Every human being was written into the book of life before the universe was even created (see the link, which leads to many others), and a name is only blotted out when a person rejects Christ (or refuses to accept Him throughout his/her life). This life is sufficient in each and every case for a person to indicate their true decision. Those who reject God's unknowably immense sacrifice in having Jesus take on a human body and actually pay the price of each and every human sin do so out of uncoerced free will – and would do so again in a thousand life-times. They reject the Lord because they do not deign to subordinate their free will to the will of God, regardless of what He did for them through Jesus and in spite of the consequences – just exactly like the devil. As a result, unbelievers get not only what they justly deserve, but precisely what they bargained for and wanted: an eternity without God. Like the devil, of course they would prefer that eternity to be one of blessing and not cursing, but all blessing comes only from God, and being without Him is the definition of cursing. The lake of fire is the unavoidable consequence of the choice that those who will not share the universe with God must receive – otherwise God would not be just, and then the righteous would have to perish too. Please see the links:

Against Universalism I: Free Will and the Image of God.

Against Universalism II: Only Believers are Saved.

Against Universalism III: Unbelievers in the Plan of God.

Literal Hell

2) The mercy and justice of God is also seen in His automatic salvation of all children who die before becoming accountable and also for all the mentally incapacitated. There is no need for them to decide latter. Christ died for all their sins, whatever those may be, so they are saved because they did not refuse or reject Christ. There was no occasion in their life-times to blot their names out of the book of life. Here are some key links on this:

Infant Salvation

The Age of Accountability:  At what Age are we responsible for believing in Christ?

Severe Mental Handicaps Ensure Salvation

Why Doesn't God Prevent All Children from Dying?

What will our relationship be in heaven with children who died young?

The Cross Divides Every Human Life.

God's Plan to Save You (in BB 4B)

So there is no such thing as "purgatory" (see the link). This world is the only place and this life we live the only time we have to make a decision for Jesus Christ or refuse to do so – and God has worked it all out perfectly so that our true decision is made possible and honored.

Yours in the ineffable mercy and justice of our righteous and loving God, and His Son our Lord, Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #16:

Good evening Dr. Luginbill,

I have stumble upon your site while chasing Fallen Angels, Satan, Enoch, Jubilees and other such rabbit holes. As I read through several of your articles, it came to me to see what you have to say about the Subject verse in detail. I was not satisfied with what you have, which are response to e-mails.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...{KJV}

According to the references in Strong's, it appears that the "men" herein is in fact derived from a form that would lead one to believe that a singular, man, is the subject; not all mankind as suggested in one of your responses to an e-mail. Each individual HUMAN BEING is subject to physical death and then a point thereafter that person{?} will be judged.

So here are my questions:

{Keeping in mind that we are made in the image and likeness of God, we are, therefore, body, soul and spirit; a trinity...of a lower nature.} If the body is dead, what is being judged? {Col 2:5; 1 Cor 5:3; 2 Cor 5:8} The question is not what ACTS are being judged, but what aspect of the trinity of man's existence is being judged?

When is this judgement going to take place?

Round one,

Response #16:

Good to make your acquaintance.

1) The Hebrews 9:27 passage is generic, that is, it refers to everyone (even in English, "man" or "a man" is often used generically – for everyone) – nothing else would make sense in context. In any case, the word anthropos is actually in the plural here. Strong's concordance is a helpful tool – for those who read Greek. It can be very misleading, however, to pick and choose possibilities from it as if they were all equally viable. It is very clear what this passage means – in Greek (which, as it happens, is reasonably rendered in all of the major versions – not always the case).

2) Man is dichotomous, not trichotomous (a common misconception; see the link); human beings are created to be body-spirit and always are, since the moment of their creation and then on into eternity (whether saved or lost). There is no such thing as a "disembodied spirit", even in the period between death and resurrection (see the link: "Our Heavenly, Pre-Resurrection, Interim State"). We are a "whole" and judged as the individuals we are.

3) The Last Judgment of unbelievers takes place at the end of human history (following the destruction of the old heavens and earth and just prior to the creation of the new; see the link).

4) If you will have a look at this main link where all of these issues on the last judgment are covered in great detail, I think that all of your questions will be answered – or at the very least we will be able to save a good deal of time regarding any misapprehensions about the teachings of this ministry: "The Last Judgment".

Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob Luginbill

Question #17:

Good evening Dr. Luginbill,

Since it's late, let's tackle one thing tonight.

On Hebrews 9:27, I may be incorrect in landing on this as signifying each individual person as oppose to mankind in general. As I read the translations it appears to be a reference to the singular. I would somewhat bow to your expertise in the Classic languages in hopes that a predisposition does not color the translation. G444. anthropos, anth'-ro-pos; from G435... aner, an'-ayr; a primary word [comp. G444]; a man (prop. as an individual male):--fellow, man, I don't see the plurality in the definition.

John 21:21-22**, Matt 20:1-15 seem to be addressing the singularity of judgement; each person comes before the Lord for judgement as He sees fit, not relying on the actions or inactions of others for salvation or rewards. ** 21:23 implies that Christ was alluding to the survival of John, when he appears to be telling Peter not to concern himself with the destination of others, but to concentrate on where he (Peter) was going.

When is a helpful tool misleading? If a 90mm barrel is bent, is it still a good tool for the accurate delivery of the round?

If it was that clear, I would not have brought it up. I find it to mean singular man; you plural.

It is time to stand down,

Response #17:

A plural is a plural; a singular is a singular. Just as there is a difference in English between "goose" and "geese" – which no one who understands English would miss, so there is a difference between anthropos and anthropoi – which no one who reads Greek could miss (n.b., the form is actually anthropois since this plural is in the dative case).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #18:

Are you saying that the original {earliest} Greek text is "anthropois"? Your reference to "dative case", forces me into areas, which once looked into, I would prefer not to go !!!!

Response #18:

That is correct. All the mss. have this reading.

As to the dative, your list is of course only partial. But let's be clear: 1) case usages such as the ones you include here are descriptive frameworks as analyzed by grammarians and scholars over time; Plato, for example, never heard of the "dative of purpose", even though we would use this system in some instances to describe Platonic usage; 2) when it comes to individual instances in texts, it is not always so clear what type of classification we should place on an actual dative/genitive/accusative usage; 3) in any event, the Greek always "means what it means", and systems such as the one pasted in here are merely helps to determine and explain what is going on in the text; it's not as if we have a "Smorgasbord" and are free to pick something we like and then jam the text and its meaning into our arbitrary interpretation based upon a later descriptive grammatical framework such as this. This is a long way of saying that learning Greek is really the only way to understand Greek. In this particular verse, the dative is a function of the verb, apotithemi (form: apokeitai); certain verbs in Greek "take the dative" (as here); the technical term for this is the "objective complement".

Yours in Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #19:

Well, I guess it is what it is. Learning Greek is not on my horizon. Apparently the version of QuickVerse I have been using for the last 15 years is flawed.

I see that your latest {?} publications have been concerning wars. How do you work this and your Marine Corps association into the love one an other command of Christ?

Response #19:

No problem. Tools like this are helpful, but they can't substitute for a detailed knowledge of the language (necessary for translation and exegesis).

As to your question, I don't see the problem with writing and researching about Thucydides' History and being a Christian walking with Christ (you'll have to expand on that one for me). As to membership in the armed forces, loving one another does not mean we get rid of law and order, either domestic or international, and these require police and military forces respectively. There are plenty of biblical examples of godly believers who had military backgrounds. For more details on the perspective of this ministry, please see the links:

Christian Love: The Golden Rule, Christian Military Service and Self-Defense

Should Christians engage in military service?

Christian military service

What does the Bible say about War, History, and Politics?

Preemption, self-defense, and the Bible

Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #20:

Robert,

Hope things are going well for you my friend or at least, have improved since last year, I know you were going through some difficult times, seems like we both have and I continue to keep you in my prayers. I've become better at not just praying at night but praying during the day for strength. I read this comment on YouTube and I'm wondering what you think of it, what are your thoughts, not my words, someone else's....

Response #20:

It's good to hear from you, my friend, and I hope things are going good for you. I have been praying for you daily, and I hope that things in your life have settled down, and that you are making progress with your plans.

As to the quotation, it's typical, I would say, of so many out there who "teach" as if it were the truth whatever odd idea pops into their heads. Worst of all is when the "odd things" have a grain or two of the truth, but fail to apply it properly – because nonsense is easier to reject than half-truth.

1) Matthew 25, the sheep and goats judgment, is not talking about gentiles and Jews, but believers and unbelievers; the "brethren" are believers. This judgment takes place at the end of history following the final phase of the resurrection, with the millennial believers (Jews and gentiles) being judged for reward first (the sheep), and the unbelievers, all unbelievers from throughout all history, being judged next in the final phase of judgment, the last judgment for condemnation (the goats). Please see in CT 6: "The Last Judgment".

2) In John 10, our Lord is talking about the Church. We, the Church, are resurrected at His second advent return, and thus have nothing to do with the "sheep and goats" judgment of Matthew 25. Our resurrection and our judgment for reward is, it is true, identical to that of the Millennial believers – but it comes a thousand years earlier (so that we may share in Christ's Millennial reign, et al.). We, the Church, are "one flock", gentiles and Jews in One Body, the Body of Christ. Israel is the foundation of the Church (this is the grain of truth), but this life is all about how we respond to the offer of life in Jesus Christ, not how we treated the Jewish people in this life. Antisemitism is a horrible sin (actually, an entire pattern of sinfulness, see the link), but condemnation for all unbelievers comes for rejecting Christ, whereas salvation comes for all believers through faith in Christ. Christ died for all sin, so that salvation is about our response to Him, not about sin (nor about works). Good works, actually done in the power of the Spirit, demonstrate a person's saved status, just as the opposite may indicate a lack of belief. But salvation is all about Jesus Christ, not what we have done, good or ill, in this life. Finally, all Israel is not Israel (Rom.9:6): those who are Jewish in the flesh only and not of the faith of Abraham are not going to be among the resurrected when Christ returns; and those who live after the second advent will find themselves among the goats if they refuse to accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

Here are a few other links that may be helpful:

Israel: God's Perfect Standard

The Uniqueness of Israel

The Repentance of Israel

Yours in our dear Lord Jesus Christ, the true Messiah and Savior of Jews and gentiles both,

Bob L.