Question #1:
What does Deuteronomy 18:15 say in Hebrew? The Muslims often quote it with reference to Muhammad (the 'empowerment of error' is clear to see with them - how they twist the truth and are unwilling to receive is simply astonishing). The reason I'm asking is that they often say that 'from among brethren' relates to Arabs (as if Moses ever related to them), as brothers of Israelites (based on the fact that Ishmael was brother of Isaac). I'm aware that the claim about the meaning of 'brother' is quite ridiculous, but then some translations don't even mention 'brother' at all (NIV):
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.
Response #1:
The Hebrew of Deuteronomy 18:15 does say "brothers", more specifically "your brothers". As you note, in the context this means the Israelites. It is true that Ishmael was a son of Abraham, but as Paul says, he was "the son of the slave woman" while we who believe are the "sons of the free woman", the "children of promise" (Gal.4:22-31). Throughout the NT in particular, the distinction between the people of faith and the people of blood relation only is made repeatedly. If it is true that Jews are only really "of Israel" if they walk in the faith of Abraham their forefather, how much more is that not the case for those who are not even Jews, regardless of some questionable genealogical link? On the other hand, all human beings, Arabs included, can be saved through the same faith which resulted in Abraham being declared righteous. And, after all, we are all related to Adam and Eve, and we are all descendants of Noah. Genealogical links mean nothing. In any case, anyone who would place another person in preference to Jesus Christ is certainly not a believer, and it is pointless to try to convince unbelievers of anything else other than the gospel. That is because all spiritual information is "foolishness to them", and they are in fact incapable of understanding spiritual truths unless and until they are born again (1Cor.2:14). That is why the Holy Spirit is the necessary link in making the gospel understandable to the unbeliever (please see the link: "Epignosis and Epistemology", "How to be Born Again (in BB 4B)", and "The Holy Spirit: Pneumatology Questions I").
Question #2:
Bob,
I enjoyed reading your writings of the return of Jesus Christ, and the end of the church age. I thank you for expressing the 2,000 year church age beginning in 33 AD. Before I begin to make a statement please understand that I am in no way arguing with you or attempting to dismiss your words. I am simply trying to expand my knowledge of the word of God so I can be a faithful servant to our Lord Jesus Christ. You are my brother, and I am yours; as such I want you to enjoy success, and have the bounty of Christ as you do for me. I have been drawn to the book of Matthew lately, and the coming tribulation. I do realize that there are signs, and prophecy throughout the Bible. Matthew 24: writes about Jesus explaining to his Disciples on the "Mount of Olives" the signs to watch for before his second coming. It is thought that the scripture that uses the parable of the fig tree; "When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh". This is in reference to Israel, and the return of the Jewish people from the four corners of Earth. This event occurred on May 14, 1947; and "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled". In the days of Noe he lived to be 900 years old. However, in today’s world a generation is thought to be 70 years of age, and at most 80 years. Going by this general time line, 70 years after the reformation of the State of Israel would be 2018. 80 years after Israel became a nation would be 2028. Remember that Jesus says this generation shall not pass away till all these things have been fulfilled. Therefore the end times shall be complete no later than 2028, because you must give time for the 70 weeks of Daniel. This would mean that the Tribulation would begin in approximately 2021. However, we are not meant to know the exact day or hour, but we can approximate the year. It seems that both of us using different barometers established in scripture have come pretty close to the same conclusion. I have below scripture from the book of Matthew that are quoted above. I'm not trying to insult your knowledge of scripture, but in my work one must provide proof.
{24:29} Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {24:30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Best Regards,
Response #2:
Good to make your acquaintance, and thanks for all your good words about this ministry. As to your question, I have been fielding quite a lot of speculation along these lines in the past couple of years. Most of it is not yet posted, but for the key point that there is no unfulfilled prophecy of any specific events in scripture between the first Pentecost and the commencement of the Tribulation, please see the link (which includes a brief comment on the so-called "Balfour prophecy").
In my reading and re-reading of the parable of the fig tree, I see only the point that there are clear signs which will let a believer know that "these things are about to happen". But it would be good to observe that our Lord is answering the question posed to Him by the disciples about the timing of the "end of the age" and His second advent return along with the events that precede it. In other words "these things" which "start to happen" are particular, prophesied events which can be known from scripture (like the rise of antichrist or the setting up of the abomination of desolation) rather than their precursors which are less certain of identification (as in the return of some non-believing Jews to the land under their own steam rather than being regathered by the Lord at His return in the miraculous way scripture relates).
So while it is indeed good and salutary to examine the times and the seasons, and to understand that things which are happening now might be precursors of what is to come, it is equally right and salutary to "see to it that none of you be deceived". Since there are no particular events prophesied before the start of the Tribulation, what happens prior to this commencement may or may not be significant; or it may be significant but may defy any precise calculation of time or attendant circumstances. Jews began to return to the land well before 1947, even as early as the late 19th century, after all. More to the point, the biblical prophecies about return all are speaking of the divinely effected return of all Jews to the land following the second advent; none of the biblical prophecies is referring to the secular return of some non-believing Jews to the present secular state of Israel of their own will and accord prior to the second advent.
So I suppose the best place to start this discussion would be to ask you why you feel that there is biblical connection to the date, 1947. Without such a connection, I don't see how there can be any validity in the calculation. That would go for 1948 as well.
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Savior for whose return we wait breathlessly,
Bob Luginbill
Question #3:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
I hope that all is well. Please share your thoughts regarding this very interesting article that my wife just forwarded (please cut and paste it to your web browser):
http://www.trumpetsounds.com/howawful.html
In a nutshell, it declares that the Time of Jacob's Trouble referred to in the Bible is not the be confused with The Day of the Lord or The Great Tribulation. While I don't totally agree with everything the authors proclaim, it is worth weighing this question: "why is such an historically significantly event as the Holocaust not mentioned in the Word of God?" After all, the Holocaust is not just one of the greatest atrocities in history, but it concerned Israel, God's key to the prophetic clock.
Oddly, I've never read any commentary about the Bible's coverage or omission of the Holocaust. The article presents a compelling case in its examination of the Jacob's Trouble passages, but I think that the authors are wrong in concluding that "During this time period, when God pours out His judgments on the earth, He will indeed be dealing with Israel also. But it will not be in a harsh, negative manner..."
If the two authors' preceding assessment is correct, then why does Zechariah 13:9, amongst other biblical passages, paint a different scenario. Now, to be sure, Ezekiel makes it clear that the Lord will destroy all the nations that go on the offense against Israel, but, it's quite clear that Jehovah will use the Great Tribulation (the last three and half years) to purge the Jewish nation of its rebels, thus bringing the remnant--that is one third of the nation--to national repentance in Messiah (please see the two passages below). Perhaps the authors should read Ichthys.
For I am with you to save you, declares the LORD; I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished.
Jeremiah 30:11 ESV"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."
Zechariah 12:10 ESVAnd I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’"
Zechariah 13:9 ESV
By the way, Dr. Luginbill, what are your two favorite Bible translations? I like the ESV, NIV, and NKJV. I was thinking of purchasing the HCSB, the Holman Christian Standard Bible, but, in perusing it, I was disappointed that it translates John 4:6 as follows, "Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, worn out from His journey, sat down at the well. It was about six in the evening" [emphasis mine]. Due to her immoral lifestyle, the Samaritan woman was shunned, so, in all probability, she would have favored frequenting the well at sometime around noon, the hottest part of the day, so as to lessen the likelihood of running into the other women in the town (at least this is the reasoning that commentators use, which makes sense). While other translations render the time as the sixth hour, which in Jewish time would be 12 noon, the HCSB translates it as "six in the evening."
As always, I appreciate your precious time, penetrating insights, and love for God's Word.
Response #3:
Good to hear from you,
To take your last question first, I also like the ESV and NKJV. I like the NIV too, but only the 1984 NIV. Recently, they have put out a new revision (2011) which is so radically different than the 1984 NIV so as to be a whole new version in fact – and all the changes I have seen are terrible, i.e., changing correct interpretations to incorrect ones and making readable passages less readable. As much of this seems to have been done for "politically correct" reasons, I am doubly flabbergasted. So while I have to take care while looking at the "new" version online (they have required all sites which have it to switch to the 2011 version), blessedly I have a print copy of the 1984 rendition. I also use the NASB (but its treatment of some portions of the scriptures, especially Psalms, is woefully lacking). Lastly on this, I'm not a user of Holman's, but you are correct that this particular error is a "whopper". However, when it comes to translation – which are always and of necessity interpretations in their own right – one always has to be careful about mistakes in understanding what is "really there". That is why I often recommend that, in addition to accessing good Bible teaching, believers have several versions to hand and make it a practice to cross-check whenever something seems out of kilter. If the versions agree and there still seems to be a "problem", well, that is one of the things this and similar ministries are for.
As to "the time of Jacob's trouble", I understand this to be the Tribulation. Here is what I say about the verse in Coming Tribulation part 1:
This phrase in Jeremiah 30:7 is a clear reference to the Tribulation as the context indicates. It will be a time like no other (v.7), but one followed by liberation (v.8), the rule of the Messiah (v.9), and the regathering of the nation (v.10).
The absence of Messiah's coming, to take the most obvious point, certainly disqualifies the Holocaust as the referent in this passage. Whatever positive things one may wish to say about the state of Israel and its formation, this certainly did not take place through the direct, immediate, and visible intervention of the Lord, and it is certainly not Him that present day Israelis are serving. The state was formed by secularists, and there is barely a believer in Christ in the entire country.
The other thing about this article which I take as a "tell" is the well-worn and woefully incorrect assumption that the year 1948 has some sort of prophetic importance because that is Israel's foundation date. When true Israel is regathered, it will be all Jews from all countries brought back to the edge of the land by the Messiah Himself, our newly returned and victorious Savior Jesus Christ. And only those who have believed after seeing Him and His return will be allowed to enter the land. That will be the fulfillment of the verses in Jeremiah 30 which follow the reference to "the time of Jacob's trouble". Finally on this point, according to this passage there is only one such terrible time, "the time", and that would have to be the worst and most prophetically significant time, namely, the Tribulation.
There is no specific unfulfilled biblical prophecy between Christ's ascension and the beginning of the end times proper, namely, the Tribulation. The Church Age is an interpolation into the plan of God (as it was previously revealed) which fills out the seven days of human history. The principle of imminency is a major part of this. According to scripture, even though we can postulate easily enough that the Church Age lasts 2,000 years, the Day of the Lord with its attendant preliminaries which occur during the Tribulation has been "imminent", theologically speaking, since our Lord left for heaven (see the link). The principle would be undermined if not destroyed were there a date specific prophecy for this age such as the Holocaust (i.e., the end times could not begin until at least this prior event took place). So not only is there no prophecy about the Holocaust – there is no prophecy of any specific event in this entire two millennial period (there are prophesied trends in the seven eras as represented by the seven churches of Revelation, but nothing specific as to a particular event; see the link).
This sort of un-biblical speculation may seem harmless enough, but I fear like all things which purport to be the truth but are not may lead to worse errors. For example, if we see the formation of secular Israel as something God has done actively and a place God blessed actively (as opposed to having allowed it and tolerated it as a precursor of what comes next), then it is very tempting to see present day Israelis as in the will of God (instead of as unbelievers who need the gospel), and Israel as a righteous cause (instead of as a secular state which may not be acting in God's will at all), and therefore as a safe-haven for believers once trouble begins. The last point may be the most critical, because nothing could be farther from the truth. The absolute worst place to be during the Tribulation will be the state of Israel, for she will be the focal point of two massive invasions, and the center of the beast's world rule and the persecution of the true Church thereafter. For those who find themselves in spiritual Babylon, I have posited that Israel is the logical place to which to "flee" once such flight is commanded, but that will be at the very end of the Great Tribulation, after antichrist's rule there has been temporarily abrogated. As is often the case in the plan of God, timing is very important (e.g., Eccl.3:1ff.). Only by doing the right thing at the right time are we safely in God's will, and as in all things only by careful attention to His holy Word do we open ourselves up to the proper guidance of the Spirit so as to be able to tell the difference.
(1) Therefore I entreat you by God's mercy, brothers, to dedicate your bodies as a living sacrifice, well-pleasing to God – [this is] your "priestly-service" spiritually performed. (2) Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by this renewal of your thinking, so that you may discern what God's will for you is, namely what it is good, well-pleasing, and correct [for you to do].
Romans 12:1-2 (cf. Rom.2:17-18)(9) And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in full-knowledge (epignosis: truth believed) and in all discernment, (10) so that you may be able to evaluate the things that are good and appropriate [for you to do] to be sincere and without offense in regard to the day of Christ (i.e., to gain a maximum reward at Christ's judgment seat), (11) full of the righteous production Jesus Christ [commends] to the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 1:9-11Solid [spiritual] food is for the [spiritually] mature, those who by [diligent] practice have trained their [moral] perceptive faculties to [properly] distinguish between good and evil.
Hebrews 5:14
Thanks as always for your good and encouraging words, my friend!
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #4:
The "Times of the Gentiles" are over. In Luke 21:24, Jesus prophesied, "And they [the Jews] shall … be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (KJV). The phrase "times of the Gentiles" is better translated "times among the nations."
The period of Jews being "led away captive" to live among the nations began when the Romans started resettling Jews from Palestine in 66 CE, in the first year of the First Jewish-Roman War, and by 135 CE almost all Jews had been removed from the land of Israel. From then on, the Jewish people had no homeland and were forced to live among the nations of the world, as Jesus had prophesied.
Jews continued to live "among the nations" until 1950, when the new sovereign and independent State of Israel passed the Law of Return. With the passage of that Law, any Jew living anywhere in the world could come to live as a citizen in the land of Israel. Thus, the involuntary "times among the nations" was over for the Jewish people .
In 1967 during the Six-Day War, Israel gained possession of and sovereignty over Jerusalem as well, and thus both parts of Jesus’ prophecy about the "times of the Gentiles" were fulfilled completely.
To read more about this topic and other interesting Bible prophecies, see http://www.prophecysociety.org/wordpress/
May God continue to bless your efforts to glorify Him,
Response #4:
Dear Friend,
With all due respect, the Greek phrase καιροὶ ἐθνῶν, almost universally translated "the times of the gentiles" in Luke 21:24, cannot mean "times among the nations".
Secondly, there is no specific prophecy for any event that transpires during the Church Age and before the commencement of the end times (see the link; the seven churches of Revelation give trends, not specific prophecies; see the link).
Thirdly, the 1967 War has nothing to do with any specific prophesy. The prophecies of the Bible which speak of the return of the Jews to the land of promise all make it clear that 1) all Jews will be included (not a small minority of the world community as is the case today), and 2) the Lord is the One who bring about this return in a miraculous way (as opposed to the secular process which has been underway since the late 19th century). All of these prophecies relate to the regathering of the Jews following Christ's second advent (please see the link: in CT 6: "The Regathering and Purging of Israel".
The entire schema of what scripture teaches about all of these matters is set out in the nine part Coming Tribulation series, introduced by the five part Satanic Rebellion series (see the links).
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob Luginbill
Question #5:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
I've noticed a striking similarity in regards to the prophecy of Islam's messiah (Imam Mahdi). Islam's messiah is supposed to return at the end of history, and he will convert the entire world to Islam during a period of 7 years. During that 7 year period, Jesus (the prophet) will return and even pray to the Imam Mahdi. Jesus will also "correct" the "Christians" by telling them he never claimed to be God, by breaking crosses, killing swine, etc. They even have their own "antichrist" referred to as the Dajal. The Mahdi will slay the Dajal and establish peace. There seems to be similarities between this and the bible's 7 year tribulation and what it says about the Antichrist and the False prophet. The bible says that the false prophet glorifies the Antichrist while Islam teaches that their Jesus will glorify their messiah (Imam Mahdi). The only thing I can't connect is Islam's antichrist. Is Islam mentioned in the bible? I also wanted to add that there is a New Age movement that teaches Jesus (aka "master Jesus") will rule in Rome as the final pope, but that he is not God. He will also supposedly reform the "Christians". Does the bible speak on things related to these? Thanks!
God Bless,
Response #5:
Muhammad wrote the Quran six hundred years or so after the New Testament and seems to have modeled much of it on the Bible (as many have done before and since, e.g., the Book of Mormon). So the fact that there are parallels in some of the eschatology should not be at all surprising. Apart from the Church Age trends delineated in Revelation 2-3, scripture does not say anything (and that includes regarding Islam) about the 2,000 years between our Lord's resurrection and ascension and the beginning of the "Day of the Lord", the Tribulation which is the Second Advent's precursor (see the link). The same would be true regarding the specifics of any or all cults such as the one you mention. It is very clear that antichrist will co-opt all such cults – and all major religions – into his one-world religion of which he is the object of worship (along with the devil). In fact, all "religion", that is, all worship which is not directed in simple faith towards the One true God through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, is really devil-worship. Scripture does talk about the beast's religion and I have tried to collect that information at the following links:
The False Prophet's Administration of Antichrist's False Religion
The Rise of False Teaching in the Tribulation
The Persuasiveness of antichrist's religion
Characteristics of the false religion
Here is a passage which, while it strictly applies to the Tribulation, also gives us details of false teaching and false teachers which in my view we can already identify in their incipient trends:
So be aware of this, that in the last days there will be difficult times. For [in those times] there will be men (i.e., false teachers; cf. chap.2) concerned only for themselves, devoted to money, egotistic, arrogant, blasphemous, not concerned for their parents, ungrateful, irreverent, implacable, slanderers, uninhibited, savage, despising the good, betrayers, impetuous, megalomaniacal, devotees of pleasure rather than lovers of God, possessing an [outward] appearance of godliness, but [in reality] having rejected its [true] power. From such men turn away. Of this sort are those who [even in our own day] worm their way into households and take captive the [spiritually] weak who are loaded down with sins, leading them astray with various lusts, [victims who consequently,] though always learning, are never able to accept the truth. In the same way that [Pharaoh's court magicians] Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, for their minds have been corrupted and they have been found wanting concerning the faith. But they will not keep on striding forward forever. Their folly will become obvious to all, just as in the case of those two.
2nd Timothy 3:1-9
In confidence that you and all of us who pay attention to sound doctrine will safely negotiate all such pitfalls during the troubles to come, and stand in glory before our dear Lord Jesus Christ.
Bob L.
Question #6:
Hi Dr,
I wrote to you way back in 2007 and we regularly corresponded with each other. Though I do not understand why I cannot find your e-mail in my sent mail history. I tried and failed so i had to go back to the ichthys.org site and try get your mail for your general e-mail to respond to FAQ's and other fan mail.
So anyway I don't know if that mail can open attachments. I am trying to attach for you a webpage that is for another very diligent bible scholar who believes in the post-trib rapture and his look at the prophecy of Daniel 12 is so amazing i just had to share it with you. I always wondered what is the difference between the 1260 day tribulation , the 1290 days and the blessedness of those who reach the 1335 days and he has completely deciphered it for me. I will not take much of your time as you will look at the attachment anyway. The gentleman's name is Phillip Brown and his online ministry is www.newwine.org
Meanwhile also there is a bible scholar and fiction writer called L.A Marzuli and he too had a television interview in which he also intrigued me with his analysis of the mark of the beast 666. I have thought about it and it seems to make lots of sense to me. He started out by reminding audience that Jesus said when he would return it would be as in the days of Noah and he says many people zero in on violence and godlessness but he says people forget one thing ..during the days of Noah people lived 600 years plus. He then pointed out that in the days of Noah the fallen angels intermingled with humanity giving birth to giants or nephilim half breeds. I remember you mentioned the same that probably the 10 kings in the end time will be Nephilim.
However he goes further to illustrate his point that people mistake the mark to be a mark for commerce and trade but he says that is just a fringe benefit the real mark is a sort of mutative medical miracle that will be an implant perhaps to mutate human DNA with fallen angel metaphysics. He argues there are a few clues in the 5th trumpet when the locusts or scorpions sting those who are not sealed by God they suffer agony but seeking death it flees from them. He argues that is a sign that at that time the antichrist will not only resurrect or regenerate his own fatal wound but will attempt to make all people in his image ,that is why the mark is his image and the mark that marks his followers is the image given life by the false prophet.
The selling point after world war 3 (the false Armageddon) will not be commerce but cures against sicknesses and longevity even pseudo immortality in a world ravaged by nuclear fallout chemical weapons and biological plagues. So people will line up in droves to be like their 'messiah' and take up the mark to live in 'peace and paradise' in every sense of the word. It will not only be a time for buying and selling(that is insignificant) it will be a time of long living, disease free ,biologically immortal human beings.
Marzuli further pointed out that this is not true immortality and this mark will have an ability to somehow mutate humans into truly evil and irrevocably and irreversibly nephilim like fallen beings that is why the false prophet and antichrist are thrown into the lake of fire alive and all their ilk with them because they are no longer human. The sores that hit all those marked by the beast in the 1st bowl judgement is bot a punishment by God to show that they are not immune to disease but more importantly it's a glimpse at their flawed technology which first makes them happy but then begins to manifest as a clinical trial gone horribly wrong.
I think you may agree , he like you agrees that the fallen/nephilim have that interest all along to make a come back and at some point change humanity fundamentally through a DNA altering mark. I am very convinced this makes much more sense than mere commerce. I just don't think buying and selling will be the chief selling point of the antichrist as a real superhuman messiah..commerce has been going on since ancient civilizations but what humans have always aspired to is physically becoming superhuman and immortal and the antichrist making good on those aspirations would endear him to millions of unsuspecting folk.
Get back to me with your thoughts on this mark of the beast analysis.
OK Dr Tim, i end here for today and hope your e-mail still works and you can get back to me sooner as you have probably finished your online prophecy book
Your loyal fan and fellow prophecy enthusiast
Response #6:
Good to hear from you (my site is Ichthys.com – for the reasons why, see the link). Prophecy about the end times is not all that easy to figure out. It took me decades to solve it. Unfortunately, it is very easy to put together a theory and throw it out there on the internet. But I suppose that is a good thing in that it tests the mettle of believers as to whether or not they really want the truth and are willing to commit to a reasonable and disciplined approach to get it. Everyone who truly knocks, truly will find.
On www.newwine.org, according to this person, the Mahdi is the antichrist. That is absolutely wrong. Anyone with that idea has completely misunderstood prophecy altogether. And it is a very dangerous idea. In fact, this is exactly what antichrist will claim! The Mahdi will oppose the seven kings whose revived Roman empire is controlled by the actual antichrist. But of course the beast will claim to be Jesus Christ. And for those who are infants in these things or worse, to the degree that they are led to believe that the Mahdi is antichrist, to that extent they may be persuaded to accept the beast as Jesus Christ – and damnation will not be far off at that point.
On Marzuli, the Tribulation is only a few years away. There is no time for expanded lifespans or a prior third world war or any of the other major speculations this person advances (it is highly questionable if biological technology will be anywhere near doing the sorts of things he suggests in the next couple of decades). Such stuff may be fun to listen to, but I find it terribly depressing to hear about such distractions from scripture. If any of these things were in the Bible (the Bible says nothing about DNA, for example), that would be a different matter.
In any case, it's good to hear from you, my friend! I can only reiterate that spiritual growth requires finding a good source of the truth and sticking with it. That is because the Holy Spirit can only use actual truth in your heart, truth that you have thoroughly believed. Things that are not actually believed, and things that are not true (believed or not) can do you absolutely no good.
In prayer for your spiritual growth and edification in Jesus Christ our Lord,
Bob L.
Question #7:
Hello Dr Luginbill, thanks for your reply..It's been a long time and I have missed your expert opinions. Well true the whole Mahdi idea is very reminiscent of the antichrist but I think the Mahdi will in fact war with the antichrist. My view is the Mahdi is the king of the south in Daniel representing the Arab world or league and the true Antichrist will be the king of the North( a European Charlemagne)
I don't know if you've heard of Irvin Baxter , he is a famous bible prophecy scholar he seems to have drawn the conclusion(which is quite convincing) that the beasts of Daniel 7 are Lion(Britain..with Canada/US-the wings) ,Bear(Russia) ,the Leopard is very interesting he says it's Germany and he says the 4 heads are the 4 incarnations of German power 1st head Ottoa von Bismark's empire of late 19th century 2nd head Kaiser Wilhelm II Germany of WW1, 3rd head Hitler's 3rd Reich and he says this is the head that has the wound that got healed. 4th head current Germany the main powerhouse of EU.
Let me explain , he says the wound on the head of one of the 7 is when in WW2 Germany was utterly destroyed, divided among the powers with the Berlin Wall forming a deep wound of about 40(if we begin from 1948 Berlin blockade).So anyway when the wall fell in 1989, the wound was healed and now germany is the de facto decision maker in EU.
He says that is not all the 4th Empire according to him will be a morphing of EU into a Holy Roman empire with Germany at the head, this will happen after WW3 is over. There are many prophecies of European nature(many by Christian mystics that agree that a Great Charlemagne who will rid the world of Islam and bring the whole world to follow the Church will come and he will have a 'holy pope' for a sidekick) .Sounds a mirror image of the antichrist who like Hitler will first come beating a drum of redemption and then when he has the power will proclaim himself the messiah and turn into a terrible oppressor. Off course the prophecies pain only the beautiful ideal picture , they do not say he could turn out that way. If you want I can send you about 30 prophecies of this kind in my next reply.
Also i know you looked at the site newwine.org but did you look at the attachment. This teacher although you may disagree with the Mahdi idea, has a very sound explanation as to why the rapture is post tribulation. It is the most convincing i have ever heard, not only does he follow methodical study and context of the verses in the new testament. He particularly compares the Olivet discourse in Matthew with Daniel talking to Angels in Daniel 12 and shows parallels that the same questions were asked by both but in Daniel God did not say no one would ever know the hour(as many pre tribers argue taking Jesus out of context) he says God specifically said the wicked would go on being wicked and remain in darkness while the wise(or faithful) would understand the point and the point is the countdown to Christ's return is right from the erection of the abomination. When the abomination is erected there will be 1290 days to the resurrection and that is when the wrath of God starts on the Antichrist's kingdom, this is the dead rising first and those who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye on the 1335 day after the abomination. This is the blessed day that the living are told to wait for as they will see the lord come down to earth!!
I wonder what you think Dr Rob, to me this makes perfect sense because many people find the book of Daniel even more cryptic than revelation and I think with this explanation it becomes clear it is not. Also in my own reading i realized a clue in Zachariah 11 which is also a very cryptic chapter but to me it seems verses 4-8 especially 8 talk of the event in Daniel 7:8 exactly!! This is when God through the antichrist(by his divine providence) destroys the 3 shepherds or horns so WW3(the 6th trumpet war NOT Armageddon) according to Zechariah lasts for a month and this is exactly 30 days so I'm thinking the abomination may be erected first then nations go to war over the middle east and after 3 great nations are annihilated the Antichrist will say he is victorious and so has to be worshiped .This is 30 days +1260 days =1290 days spoken of in Daniel 12. What do you think. It is very possible.
Response #7:
Hello again,
I certainly agree that Mahdi is the King of the South (the three kingdoms) who will war in two campaigns against antichrist (the King of the North, ruler of the seven kingdoms). When the beast wins, there will be only one reunited and revived Rome. What many people don't understand, however, is that the beast is from Babylon and that Babylon is his original power base (i.e., the statue in Daniel stands on two legs: revived Rome and Babylon).
I disagree entirely with Irvin. For one thing, as mentioned previously, there is absolutely no biblical prophecy about specific events during the Church Age (see the link). This is the mystery age, and all biblical prophecy as yet unfulfilled relates to the end times – which have not yet begun and will not until the Tribulation starts (the only exception being the seven churches of Revelation, but these give trends, not specific predictions of events; see the link). the four beasts in Daniel were all historically fulfilled by the time of the New Testament – except that the fourth is both historical Rome and also revived Rome which will come back as if from the dead (see the link).
I certainly agree that the resurrection occurs at the end of the Tribulation. I would say that this is obvious from scripture, but of course there is a very large part of the evangelical community which is tradition-bound to ignore the truth of this teaching. However, I do not at all agree with the 1290 explanation related here. For the truth, please see the link: in CT 3B: "The meaning of Daniel's 1,290 and 1,335 days".
Apart from Israel's rebellion and the Armageddon campaign which is the last major event before the second advent, there will be no war during the Great Tribulation, the time of intense persecution of the Church. Antichrist defeats the south during the first half of the seven years then rules as undisputed tyrant of the world during the second half of the Tribulation (Rev.13:3-5), until the final year when there will be a revolt in Israel which precipitates the Armageddon campaign. This is all sketched out in detail in the Coming Tribulation series, especially part 3B: Antichrist and his Kingdom.
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #8:
Dear Bob,
I think I’ve bitten off more than I can chew and need your help. You once wrote that there are many who will throw around some Hebrew and Greek in their apologetics to give an aura of authority, but in this case the author seems pretty good in his knowledge. I write because he is trying to ‘convert’ to a very, very large degree a whole forum over to the idea of an Islamic Antichrist and is very good at it. Some on the forum are coming to agree and I stayed out of it praying some of the other well-versed members would come against it and they have, but I got worked up enough to put in my two cents and the following is his response to these some Revelation scriptures I used to show how the AC's rule will be global. He states that the AC’s rule will not be global but only over the Islamic nations and the rest of the world plays no special part. He also doesn’t believe in a revived Roman Empire. I’ll link you to the forum post, but only the last page where I posted, as the topic is very long. It started out as a Mark of the Beast topic but once he got in there he took off on his Islamic AC tirade. I know what I want to say and it involves a lot of homework, which I am willing to do to stand up for my beliefs, but it involving language, which he has used against me, finds me drowning of sorts and could use your help. These are the Revelation verses I used to prove the AC’s rule was global and what follows is a copy and paste of his post back to me. Again, I will link you to the actual forum post so that you can see the other members posts and the scope of his also for your own perusal, if you wish. Our exchange begins in the middle of that page somewhere, sorry. Is he correct, because I can certainly apologize if I am in error.
In Christ,
Revelation 13:3-4 (NIV1984)
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"Revelation 13:12 (NIV1984)
12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.Revelation 13:14 (NIV1984)
14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.Revelation 17:8 (NIV1984)
8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=63323&start=150
Response #8:
Your response was excellent and really unassailable – for anyone truly interested in the truth. In discussions of this sort there are two things which are very important to keep in mind: 1) Some proofs are much more weighty than others; if a single Bible verse states something unequivocally and in a way that cannot be fairly or convincingly interpreted to mean anything else, then that verse trumps 1,000 other verses which can only be made to mean the opposite through interpretive devices. You gave four passages in Revelation which on their face do just this, namely, state the principle in very straightforward terms that antichrist's rule will be a worldwide one. That being the case, all of the major versions would have to be wrong about the essential meaning of these verses for your point not to be correct. That sort of thing does happen occasionally, but the point is that there should be no recourse to "other evidence", especially peripheral and interpretation-based evidence, until verses which state the point directly (or seem to) have been addressed. Putting the weight of argument on the 1,000 peripheral verses which to some people may be made to seem when viewed from some point of view to be contrary to direct scriptural testimony is nothing more than a debate technique. Which brings me to point #2. 2) Some people are not really interested in the truth and as a result will never surrender even when they have been completely refuted. When confronted with genuine scriptural proof, people who are interested in the truth will accept it (or at least consider it). Dismissing direct scriptural evidence is a sure sign that one's apologetic efforts will have to seen to have value for the "audience" only, and not for the person who is hell-bent on convincing you and others of his/her false point of view. That is an important lesson which all who want to be involved in apologetics need to learn and accept. It often has to be enough for people such as yourselves who have been called to such ministries to stand up for the truth without the expectation that the truth itself will be sufficient for those who have already rejected it. After all, the devil is aware of all true doctrine – but he will never admit it is true, even when it comes directly from Him who is the truth, our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (e.g., Matt.4; Lk.4).
That said, let me start with what your correspondent had to say about your four passages, because that is really the only important issue here. Correspondent's argument is essentially that because sometimes the Bible uses the words "earth" and "world" in non-global ways that necessarily therefore that is the case in your four passages. First, that is entirely illogical. If I sometimes use the word "grass" to refer to my lawn (as in "I need to mow the grass today"), that does not mean that I am therefore prohibited from using it in a universal sense (as in "grass is green"). When using words like "earth" and "world", moreover, the initial presupposition is that they are universal – so that it can only be by some contextual clue to the contrary that we are allowed to understand them differently:
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (i.e., all of it, not just some region of it).
Genesis 1:1Now the whole world had one language and a common speech (i.e., every single human being with no exceptions).
Genesis 11:1 NIV
Before going to your four passages, let me address the one your correspondent gives in part (but does not heed):
(7) He (i.e., antichrist) was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. (8) All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
Revelation 13:7-8 NIV
I would wish to ask your correspondent precisely how he/she thinks the Bible could make the totality of antichrist's rule more clear? I mean, supposing antichrist does rule the entire world, what more is scripture supposed to say here, "and by every I really mean every, and by all I really do mean all"? The above is the most emphatic way of expressing universal applicability in Greek that I can personally imagine, and there is not a single contextual indication that worldwide rule is not being described. And there is more: "earth" (Greek: ge; cf. "ge-ography") in verse 8 above can either mean "the whole earth" or it can mean "the land of Israel". Since many more of the world's peoples are included here beyond Israel, the meaning has to be the former not the latter.
Revelation 13:3-4
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"Revelation 13:12
12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.Revelation 13:14
14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.Revelation 17:8
8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
According to your correspondent's theory, only the Middle East is envisioned by the above. But that point of view would require us to assume that no one in the world outside of the Middle East is an unbeliever at that point (Rev.17:8), that no one outside of the Middle East will be deceived by the beast (Rev.13:14), that no one outside of the Middle East will worship the beast (Rev.13:12), and that no one outside of the Middle East will be impressed or astonished by his military successes, (Rev.13:3-4). To use correspondent's rhetoric, "if just one person outside of the Middle East is deceived, worships, or admires the beast or fails to believe in Christ", then the theory fails. Of course it is possible that when scripture says that antichrist will possess "authority over every tribe, people, language and nation" and that "all inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast", that this is precisely what will happen.
Correspondent places great weight on what he/she thinks are parallels to a limited application of earth/world in scripture. But not only are such applications inapplicable to the above because they do not work for reasons just given – they are also not true parallels. In every case, these are rhetorical expressions of totality which, from the biblical point of view really are total. For example, Nebuchadnezzar ruled the world from the biblical point of view – and so he did – from the biblical point of view. It is, biblically speaking, not of consequence that there were no Babylonian officials in Australia – because at the time of the Babylonian empire Australia was not of geo-political consequence. For the same sort of argument to be applicable today, the USA, for example, would have to be of no geo-political consequence (not to mention Russian and China, etc.). It would take some sort on nuclear cataclysm that wiped out every other region of the earth except the Middle East for these parallels of rhetorical limitation to be applicable to the situation in the Tribulation.
When correspondent says, things like "Not only are there no verses that describe the rule of Antichrist in a literally global sense in the original text, there are many verses that prohibit this understanding", I despair of any reasoned discourse with him/her. That is because 1) there are many verses that do just that (you have given four), and 2) there are no verses which absolutely "prohibit this understanding". Indeed, correspondent gives not a single verse which on its face prohibits us from seeing antichrist's rule as worldwide. That is because there are none, but that doesn't stop him/her from making this bald assertion.
Correspondent seems to have latched onto this interpretation because he/she sees Armageddon as it is biblically described as "impossible". Without question, many people have a hard time believing this or that statement or teaching in the Bible, but the disbelief of others is no reason for those of us who do trust in God and His Word to cater to such disbelief. Correspondent has found a theory that makes him/her feel comfortable. That is fine. The problem is that it is untrue. The bigger problem is that he/she wants to feel more comfortable by foisting this false view on others. The Tribulation will be a terrible time of testing, and many have adopted all manner of false views to blunt the uncomfortable truths that scripture gives us. The pre-Tribulation rapture is notable in this regard, but correspondent's theory is in many ways just as good for anyone not living in the Middle East: we won't have to worry about it; it will be their problem. That's the biggest danger I see with this gravely mistaken point of view, namely, that it has the potential to deaden the sense of urgency all believers should be feeling as we get closer to that time. But if we do not make adequate spiritual preparations now, we stand to be swept away in the Great Apostasy or find ourselves unable to bear up under the Great Persecution – both of which will most definitely affect the entire world, regardless of what correspondent thinks.
In the interest of sticking with the main, important point, I have omitted going down all the rabbit holes correspondent provides here (they are distracting, and perhaps deliberately so – a common debate technique), but I would be happy to address any other particular part of the posting you might want to discuss further. One notable place where correspondent is far off the mark is in his/her understanding of the interpretation of Old Testament biblical prophecy in respect to the end times, and he/she "makes hay" (or thinks to) when in ignorance he/she does not appreciate how these prophetic scriptures are to be understood (on that please see the link: "The Day of the Lord Paradigm").
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #9:
Dear Bob,
Thank you for your insights; it has helped me in my response to him. I know the thread wants to be left alone and they don't think of me as any sort of threat compared to them, but I would like to leave my final thought so that at least another view is peppered within his dialogue. I do wonder about the language though and would like to know the difference between the use of 'world' within the two verses below. What is the difference between ge and kosmos here?
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world (ge) was astonished and followed the beast. 4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
Revelation 13:3-4 (NIV1984)19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world (kosmos) hates you.
John 15:19 (NIV1984)
My first thought would be, according to the Strong's definitions and the context is that in Revelation it is only 'the inhabitants of the earth' who are astonished as they are the only ones to whom the beast is deceiving and gathering worship, hence it is enclosed. In the John verse, Jesus seems to imply that the 'hate' towards His followers stands outside just the 'earth' and its inhabitants, but is 'kosmos', all of His creation including even the angelic kind, Satan and the fallen. Is this the difference: 'world' consists of two different compartments of God's creation, ge being that of mankind and the earth and kosmos incorporating His angelic, heavenly creatures as well as those of the earth? Or am I just way off base here. Oh, how I wish I were young again and a student of yours in language. I'm afraid my brain does not work how I'd like it, but if it ever does I know it is not me, but the Lord who gives it just the right shake in understanding and grasping these sorts of things. Thanks, as always for your time in my path to understanding and to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Sincerely and in Christ,
Response #9:
You are right on the money! These are synonyms the way the New Testament usually uses them: "humanity". Both words also admit of multiple usages (in English terms) but "world/kosmos" tends to be a theological as well as a geographical term; in the latter case, it often includes the entire universe, not just the earth (i.e., in purely geographical terms, kosmos is "the heavens and the earth"). Both words can be used to express "the entirety of the human population", but when they are both used in that sense I would say that you are right that the distinction is that kosmos sometimes implies that wider applicability, "men and angels both".
Keep up the good work for Jesus Christ!
Bob L.
Question #10:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
In the book of Daniel it describes 5 empires with the 5th which is iron and clay. I've heard John MacArthur say that the last empire is an Islamic one. I don't remember his exact words but I found something similar while searching the web. I copied and pasted it and wanted to know if this is accurate, or if it is indeed just the revived Roman Empire.
"FEET AND TOES OF CLAY AND IRON. The identity of this final empire is of particular importance since God will establish His Kingdom during the course of it. Any impartial judge who will compare maps 23-25 is forced to admit that the Islamic Empire follows the Roman Empire in Middle Eastern history. It swallowed up much of the remaining Roman territory and took control of the Holy Land. Islam made Jerusalem its third holiest city, al-Quds, "the Holy." Later, Turks who had lived in the Muslim world for centuries conquered the last vestige of the Roman Empire, Constantinople, the former capital (map 30) and renamed it Istanbul, City of Islam.
Islamic culture is as notable as Roman, Greek or Medo-Persian before it. For centuries the Muslim world led Europe in scholarship, literary production and discoveries in all disciplines of science. It is well said that the Islamic Empire inherited the mantle of ancient Greece. Islamic leaders never conquered all the northern territories of the old Roman Empire. But if you compare maps 10, 12, and 18 you plainly see that the Roman Empire, even at its maximum extent, never controlled all the eastern territories of the old Greek or Medo-Persian Empires. Islam still does.
The Byzantine remnant of the Roman Empire continued to exist as Islam reached its zenith. But in a similar way map 16 shows that even after Rome had taken the Holy Land, a fragment of the old Greek Empire, the Ptolemies of Egypt, still remained. Rome eventually conquered this final Greek vestige, just as Islam mopped-up the final relic of the Roman Empire.
The Muslim domain suffered three major incursions through its history; the Crusaders in the Holy Land (map 27), the Mongols (map 28) and the European colonizers (maps 31-32). But Islam overcame those setbacks and still basically retains its former lands (map 34). In a similar way, maps 21-22 show that the Roman Empire bounced back from German invasions, recovering a large amount of the old Western Empire. And the Romans twice recaptured the Holy Land, first from invading Parthians, and many centuries later from the Sassanid Persians.
The unified Islamic Empire eventually cracked into many states. But this is no different from the Greek Empire which split into competing divisions (map 13) or the Roman Empire which was divided and reunited time and time again. Today, though the majority are not, a number of states of the Islamic world are at peace with an independent Israel, comparable with the days of the Maccabean Jewish Kingdom and the fractured Greek Empire (map 15).
In all these historical details, the Islamic Empire more than meets the standard of former civilizations in the prophetic sequence, it is comparable to any of the preceding four. But, strangely enough, few teachers of prophecy see the relevance of Islam in the sequence. The reason is not due to lack of historical testimony, but because of the prevailing interpretation of the clay and iron in the feet and toes. So we now look closely at Daniel 2 to establish the meaning. We will find that as the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman Empires were foretold, so the fifth, the Islamic Empire was predicted.
Iron Fragments
Very simply the question boils down to the identity of the iron in the feet and toes. The leg empire was solid iron. The feet empire has iron pieces mixed with clay. Many have been led to believe that the iron in the feet is a continuation of the legs. Even Josephus the Jewish historian of the first century recorded this view in Antiquities, Book 10 Chapter 10. No doubt such an assumption would stir Messianic fervor in the militarily weak Jewish nation. Convinced the Stone of God's Kingdom would soon crush a degraded pagan Rome, the Jewish people would gladly go to battle in two gruesome wars. Josephus, a survivor of the first war against Rome, did not give an explanation of the future, but he did seem to taunt his readers with a hint that someday the legs-feet would be destroyed. Twenty-twenty hindsight shows the strength of Rome was far from fragmented in the days of the Jewish wars, and Islam would not be seen for five centuries.
For a Revived Roman Empire No New Empire Like the Islamic should have Arisen
Nevertheless, the idea of a degraded Roman Empire as the final empire survives until today, both among Jewish sages and Christian scholars. But a simple observation uncovers the error. If the feet and toes were really merged with the legs, then, according to the prophecy, no new Middle Eastern empire should have arisen after the Roman Empire. In other words, if the Roman Empire of solid legs were to be followed by a fractured Roman Empire, foretold as the feet and toes, which would continue until God's Eternal Kingdom, then the great Islamic Empire which supplanted Roman rule in the Holy Land and most of the biblical world never should have appeared.
Past Jewish sages maintained belief in the four kingdom theory even after Islam arose.
Today, many Christian prophecy teachers go to extraordinary lengths to develop their scheme of a revived Roman Empire. But by focusing on Europe the Middle Eastern heart of the biblical world is ignored, now saturated with Islam for more than thirteen centuries. If this idea of a revived Roman Empire were really true the Middle East should only have seen a fragmented Roman Empire since the days of map 24. But that map and the rest show us history tells a different story. "
Is this the correct biblical interpretation of the 5th empire?
God Bless,
Response #10:
MacArthur is absolutely wrong on this one. Daniel speaks of antichrist when he talks of the "the people of the prince which is to come" (Dan.9:26), and without any question the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, not the Arabs. So antichrist is, of necessity, in some sense "Roman". Also, the beast which is the empire "once was, now is not, and will come up" (Rev.17:8) – but there was no Islamic empire until about a millennium after John wrote these words. Also, the "five" who were and the one "who is" for the same reason have to be Roman emperors, making antichrist the "seventh" in line of a Roman succession – nothing to do with Islam (Rev.17:10). MacArthur states that "For a Revived Roman Empire No New Empire Like the Islamic should have Arisen", and this complete non sequitur seems to be the basis for his argument. In fact, the Kingdom of the South does figure in biblical prophecy of the end times (see the link: "The First Campaign against the South"), but MacArthur has not gone into the details deep enough to put that together apparently. Instead, like so many before, he is being influenced by present events into a theory which seems to fit the present day geo-political facts (there are many other reasons for discounting his view, not the least of which are the direct interpretations of scripture briefly introduced above which clearly teach the opposite view; on all this see part 3B of the Coming Tribulation series).
What I find particularly disturbing about this is not so much the shoddy exegesis and interpretation (which is bad enough, especially from someone as notable as MacArthur), but the incredibly dangerous nature of that interpretation: the false view that the King of the South is "the antichrist" will be a propaganda line put forward by the actual beast who will, after all, tell everyone he is Jesus Christ (see response #4 at the link: "The 7 Trumpets, the 7 Kings, Nephilim, Antichrist and Revived Rome."). For those who are convinced that the Islamic Mahdi is "the beast", the next easy step will be to believe that the actual beast is telling the truth when he says he is Jesus Christ. After all, antichrist will rise to prominence through a political and religious crusade against Islamic resurgence, and many conservative Christians who are sloppy on their eschatology and foolishly involved in politics will be only too happy to jump on that bandwagon (especially after being disappointed by the failure of the rapture to occur). Telling them ahead of time that antichrist's lying propaganda line is correct will make them incredibly vulnerable to being swept up in the Great Apostasy, embracing antichrist as Christ, and losing their salvation as a result. I cannot think of a more dangerous misinterpretation.
In hopes of better things for you and me and all who love the Word of God.
Bob L.
Question #11:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
The exegesis I copied and pasted was written by someone other than John Macarthur. I knew that he had said in a sermon how the Antichrist ties in with the Islamic belief of their Iman Mahdi, or their savior. The copied exegesis was a vague interpretation of what John said, but he did definitely say that the Islamic empire is the final empire. He changed his view because I recall him saying that the revived Roman Empire was indeed the final one. I apologize for not making that clear. I should have rephrased the question, "is the last empire the Islamic empire?" instead. I did some research and found the transcript of what he said. Here it is:
"Now somebody might say, "Well, when you think about the future and what’s going to happen in the world, don’t we have a revived Roman Empire? Doesn’t that mean the west? You remember that the image in Daniel 2 of the final world empire had two legs and the Roman Empire had the west and the east? You know, of course, if you know history that the western part of the Roman Empire basically dissolved and the east survived for a thousand years or more so that at the time of the New Testament, sixty percent of the Roman Empire was land that is now under Muslim control...at least 60 percent. The vast majority of the Roman Empire in New Testament times is today under Muslim control and Islam is moving across the west rapidly in Europe, isn’t it?
When you have a picture in Ezekiel 38, you have a picture of the Antichrist, Gog and you have the listing of eight nations, that will be a coalition for the Antichrist. All eight of those are Muslim nations, all eight of them. And they ring the Mediterranean to Libya.
In Revelation 17:9 to 11 it says there were six kingdoms and then a seventh and finally an eighth. What is the seventh? Well there’s been a discussion about that, it well could be the Ottoman Turk Empire which lasted five hundred years and didn’t really fall until the modern era. The Turkish Empire was the last Caliphate which ended in 1923 and they’re waiting for the restoration when the Mahdi comes."
His view is somewhat different from the previous one I copied and pasted but still the same position that Islam will be the final empire. Any truth to what John stated?
God Bless,
Response #11:
Thanks for the clarification. MacArthur is still confused. All of this is written up in CT 3B (see the link), but I'll deal with his main points here.
First, it is not a matter of percentages. Between Daniel and Revelation we know that antichrist's kingdom is split several ways. First, it is distinct from Babylon, the country whence antichrist comes. Babylon is later destroyed by the 10 kings who "hate her" along with beast (Rev.17:16). The ten kings are the leaders of the ten provinces of revived Rome, so they are clearly distinct from Babylon, antichrist's original home country, which they help to destroy at antichrist's behest. Second, in Daniel 7:8 we are told that the beast (the little horn) casts down three of the ten horns. The three horns are the kingdom of the south which is conquered by antichrist during the first half of the Tribulation. After that Babylon and the now fully re-united revived Roman empire of ten provinces will be his power-base as he comes to rule the entire world.
As to Ezekiel 38, I entirely disagree. Some of the elements of the coalition do come from the south, but that is because this chapter speaks of the battle of Armageddon wherein antichrist will assemble all of the armed forces of the entire world to Israel to do battle with our returning Lord (including those of the south which he conquered earlier in the Tribulation). For the exegesis see the link: Gog of Magog.
Finally, Revelation 17:9-11 is not talking about "kingdoms" at all! It actually says that the beast himself, i.e., antichrist personally, is "the eighth [king] and he is [also] one of the seven". The beast is "the eighth" in the sense of being associated with the seven kings of initial revived Rome yet not really an integral part of them: the seven will be strongmen ruling these power-centers, but the beast will direct them all from Babylon which is not part of revived Rome. He is also "the seventh" in the sense of being the symbolic last in the line of the all-powerful Julio-Claudian emperors. The "one [who] is" is Nero who was ruling the Roman world at the time John was given to pen Revelation. The seventh will be the beast who will not rule Rome until it is reconstituted during the Tribulation, first as a coalition of seven provinces (not-Islamic), and then all ten previous areas of Roman power after the Islamic confederacy of the south is defeated in the two campaigns which scripture predicts in great detail.
All of these things take some work to cull out of scripture, but it is certainly not impossible to come up with these truths for anyone who puts their mind to it. I think that MacArthur and company are not interested in doing their homework on these issues in large part because for them they are just "academic" anyway: they are going to be "raptured" out of it – or so they wrongly believe.
Yours in the One who is the Truth, our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Bob L.
Question #12:
Dear Robert,
My sincere apologies for addressing you with just "hello"----also ,i got mixed up and forgot that i have already studied many of your writings ie all of Satanic Rebellion Series which are excellent and i totally agree with your insight into Satan's original rebellion and the later rebellion of the watcher angels by marrying the daughters of men---i have also studied the "Tribulation" series which is also excellent---the jury is still out for me on some of the things you write--
1) i'm not convinced that Antichrist will come from America(Babylon) and tend to lean toward Antichrist being Islamic,the green(Islam's colour) 4th Horse of Rev.6,who lives by the sword,denies that God could have a son(spirit of antichrist), and will think to change times and laws(to Sharia?)---jury is still out for me on that
2) i'm not sure that 144,000 and Two Witnesses are cut of at mid-point of Tribulation---i believe that our merciful God will have witnesses right up until end of 6th Trumpet judgement---it widely believed that the 5th trumpet locust judgement is the beginning of last 1/2 of Trib.week and the demons are instructed to only hurt those men who don't have the seal of God in their foreheads---for me,this proves that 144,000 sealed for protection from trumpet judgements, are still alive in last 1/2 of Trib.weeki
3) i don't agree that New Jerusalem is a cube ---i believe that it has to be a pyramid(shape of most mountains) and is the reason that Satan's Illumi-naughty and Freemasons worship the pyramid with the all -seeing eye of Horus(Satan) even on the American dollar bill----some translations translate "cornerstone" into "capstone" and a capstone only fits on top of a pyramid---Satan ,the great immitator, knows the shape of New Jerusalem because of his access to the third heaven, and i believe he immitates YHWH'S heavenly patterns here on earth, in order to deceive humanity---on the dollar bill ,Satan is saying that he is the capstone and not Messiah Yahshua
4)i believe that it is important to understand that Israel is a company of nations(Ephraim--British Empire nations) and Manasseh(U.S.A)---as i'm sure you know,Britain,Canada,New Zealand,Australia,U.S.A, S.Africa and N.W.European nations are the "House of Israel" nations with the birthright blessings that were given to Joseph---these nations definitely have the birthright blessing of material wealth and they have all also forgotten YHWH.,so these nations will be turned into Hell!---so then we see in Ezekiel 38+39 with the Gog and Magog attack, that only Israel and "House of Israel" are mentioned ---the "House of Judah" which is country of Israel is not mentioned, so i think it is quite possible that Gog Magog is a Russian ,Chinese ,Iranian Alliance(like locusts) that will attack "House of Israel" nations from the north as Joel describes---China would attack Australia ,New Zealand from north and Russia and other bands come from north into N.America and Europe.----the Gog and Magog coalition invade to take a "great" spoil, to carry away silver and gold,to take away cattle and goods,to take a "great" spoil---it doesn't seem possible that these huge bands of troops could take a great spoil from the small country Israel, which should really be named Judea, and besides , Israel doesn't have any significant stores or deposits of gold or silver---for me taking a great spoil could only be by invading the House of Israel nations like Canada and Australia and S.Africa which have incredible mineral wealth and deposits and the largest silver mine in the world is is Nevada,U.S.A and most of the world's gold is stored in the U.S.A.--like Tyre ,New Yorks (Manhatans) streets are paved with gold---i'm not 100% sure of above ,but it i think it is a possible scenario---my father was 29 years old when Hitler suddenly invaded his country Poland in a surprise attack---our Father says the spoiler shall SUDDENLY come out of the North!
---have you heard of the Twelve Tribes Communities who are in 50 communities in 9 countries and who believe that they are the only way that a person can be saved and that they will produce the 144,000 male childs who will be the first fruits ---they believe and have written extensively that there are "Three Eternal Destinies of Man" ,the Holy ,the Righteous, the Filthy and/or Unjust----they believe that only they are the Holy -----they have many teachings on internet and some things they teach i totally do not agree with ---for instance --they teach that Christianity is Babylon and not America ---yes Christianity is messed up and lukewarm, but Babylon is a country with a military and a space program etc.---and they also lie about Gen.6 and say that sons of God means "sons of Seth" and not watcher angels, which is impossible----anyway i'm just wondering if you have heard of this group"movement" and if so, what do you think of "Three Eternal Destinies of Man" hypothesis.
---you are a very gifted writer and your articles and teachings are excellent,even though i don't agree with everything ,and i will be studying them over and over again because i havn't found a better site dealing with the study of eshcatology---thankyou for your diligent and detailed work---i'm sure your writings are helping many souls---i know when i started reading your work , i kept saying ,o thankyou Abba for these wonderful writings and revelations.
--one more question ---i'm wondering if the nations in 8th Eternal Day, that bring their glory into Holy City, will be flesh and blood human beings and still procreating the same way that humans do now and if so ,at what point
have one last question i just remembered --Daniel 8:23 says that the little horn "Antichrist", king of fierce countenance,comes from one of the 4 kingdoms which came out of the broken great horn ,Alexanders original kingdom----
--so isn't that saying that he is coming from a country or region that was part of the Seleucid kingdom?-Don't worry .i'm not going to pester you with emails --i'd be interested in hearing your opinion on what i have written.----cheers sincerely
Response #12:
Thanks – sorry for the confusion. I'm happy to make your acquaintance, and thank you for your encouraging words about these studies.
As to your questions/comments, just by way of overview, one of the hallmarks of this ministry is a deliberate compartmentalization of approach when it comes to comparing what the Bible has to say on these matters with what we see happening in the world. Of course I can't "turn off" what I know, but I have made a decided and determined effort to allow only the scriptures (and of course the Spirit) to direct these researches. For me, this is the only way to go. We walk by faith and we should be willing, as faithful followers of Jesus Christ, to accept without doubt everything the scriptures say precisely as they say it, even if our eyes and ears are telling us to "modify things" to fit current trends, technology, personalities. I think this is even more important where eschatology is concerned. Failure to heed this principle is how people get "helicopters" out the locust in Revelation chapter nine, come to see Obama or Bush (or Hitler or Stalin or Mussolini or Roosevelt) as the antichrist, or become convinced that the Tribulation will happen next week or month or year because the financial system is collapsing or someone just invaded someone else, etc. For this reason, I personally do not find arguments from the contemporary situation at all convincing. It is possible that some present circumstances are reflective of future events (we are getting ever closer, after all), but one of the things I think people have a tendency to fail to factor into such discussions is the rapidity and accelerated pace of events that will obtain during the Tribulation itself – because of the removal of Holy Spirit restraint on the one hand and because of Satan's intensification of his efforts on the other. What that means is that the fulfillment of biblical prophecy precisely as it is laid out in scripture will not be hindered by things which from the present political, economic, demographic landscape may make the biblical descriptions look improbable. All the more reason to look to scripture first, second and last in our attempts to piece these things together.
1) Scripture (Dan.7 and Rev.12 & 17) is very clear about the 10 kingdoms/horns and their subdivision into a group of 7 and a group of 3. Moreover, antichrist defeats "3 horns", and there is also plenty of evidence in scripture to identify the defeated coalition with "the south". By any sort of reasonable analysis, it would seem that the south would have to be the Islamic world, not the north. Since antichrist is the ruler of Rome, and since Rome would then be the north, he would seem to have to be on the other side in this conflict. I am glad you bring up the point, however, because one of my fears for Christians who will find themselves in the midst of the Tribulation having given little critical thought to these matters beforehand (they were going to be "raptured", after all) is that they will indeed come to think that the ruler of the south (we may call him the "Mahdi" for simplicity sake) is "antichrist", and will thus be very likely to throw in their lot with the actual beast who will style himself as the champion of Israel and the world's best hope of defeating the putative "beast". So for me this is a particularly important question. I have dealt with it both in "CT 3B: Antichrist", and in the email responses, "Distinguishing antichrist from the Mahdi", "The Mahdi is not Antichrist", "No Arabic Origin for the Beast", and "The Ten Horns of Revived Rome".
2) The first six trumpet judgments all occur during the first three and a half years (see the link for a chart). The seventh trumpet begins the Great Tribulation, the last half of the Tribulation per se. So of course the 144,000 are still going to be around – as are Moses and Elijah – until the second half begins. Indeed, Moses and Elijah and next the 144,000 are the first casualties of the Great Persecution (see the link), the event which primarily characterizes the second half of the seven years and is responsible for giving it its name, the "Great" Tribulation.
3) It says in Revelation 21:16 that the city is "and as wide and high as it is long" (NIV). Since the text deliberately compares the width with the height, the most reasonable expectation is that the reader will assume it to be a cube. The holy of holies in the tabernacle, a space which symbolically represents the residence of the Lord, is also a perfect cube. As I say, I'm not much concerned about what the Illuminati do (external factors having nothing to do with scripture), but in this case perhaps we can draw a reverse lesson. One of Satan's favorite techniques is to mix just enough truth with his lies in order to get the unsuspecting to believe them. What he told Eve about the tree was true . . . partially and seen from a warped point of view. A pyramid (a pagan symbol, after all, and not just in ancient Egyptian religion) could be "just as high", but it would not really fulfill the language of Revelation 21:16 nor the symbolism of the tabernacle/temple. But I'm sure the devil would wish us to begin thinking of things in these terms in order to introduce even more error once we had bought into the first one – and once we had begun looking to his minions for "truth" instead of to the Bible.
4) On this question, let me say as emphatically as I can that not only am I not in any way a British-Israelist but I also find it to be a most distressing and dangerous false doctrine. It seems somewhat unnecessary to say that along with it being completely untenable from a biblical point of view there also is not the slightest bit of credible historical evidence even from outside of the Bible to suggest that Englishmen are really lost tribesmen of Israel. Any serious attention to the historical record will show clearly that Germanic peoples cannot possibly be Jewish, and, genetically speaking, the peoples of the British Isles are more Danish than anything else (language and culture aside). I know this is a very popular heresy, but it is also a very potentially spiritually damaging one, not least for the latent antisemitism it often engenders. For more on this please see the following links:
Satan's Attack on the Line of Messiah
5) At the conclusion of the millennial kingdom of our dear Lord Jesus, all remaining believers will be resurrected in the last echelon of the resurrection (cf. 1Cor.15:23-24). These are the Friends of the Bride who will, in number, equal the Bride (i.e., the Church) which is resurrected at Christ's second advent return. In the eternal state, the New Jerusalem, there will be no more "new" moral creatures produced. In this sense we will be "like the angels neither marrying or giving in marriage". Those described in Revelation 21:24 and elsewhere as entering the city are the Friends, not the Bride. The Bride's place is within the city, but the Friends are likewise resurrected and eternal – as is the rest of the new earth. Since we are told in Revelation 22:14 that we will "have the right" to go through the gates, this place of residence within the city does not mean any restriction for us but only that our "estate" will be close to the Lord in the eternal city – and that is blessed beyond imagination.
6) Finally, as to Daniel 8:23, I take the introductory temporal phrase to mean "after their reign is over". Thus, this phrase serves to move us away from that period and instead far forward into the Tribulation. After all, the verse is about the future antichrist, not the now distantly past four kingdoms. You are correct to see a symbolic link with the Seleucids, but only in the sense of Antiochus Ephiphanes as a type of the beast who attacks Israel "from the north" as revived Rome will do (for the details on this, please see the link).
I hope you will find the above helpful.
Yours in the Name of Jesus Christ for whose return we so breathlessly wait.
Bob Luginbill
Question #13:
Dear Robert,
Thanks for your reply and i completely agree that all Scripture must be answered by other Scripture----using that principal alone , i find much Scripture that disagrees with your interpretation----if the British Empire nations and N.W.European nations are not the "House of Israel" nations , who then are the nations that have the birthright blessings of material wealth and which nations are the "multitude of nations " that Israel said would come from Ephraim's seed---Ephraim was YHWH's "first born son",ie England and the British Empire was the greatest empire in history and at one time larger than the Roman Empire--it's not a coincidence that the English language is the dominannt world language and it is not a coincidence that the Beatles came from England whose music touched the whole world with their beautiful melodies---the whole Book of Hosea is about Ephraim "House of Israel" and there are verses that say Ephraim is in the west!---Hosea 11:10 "He shall roar like a lion;when He shall roar the children shall tremble from the WEST"-----12:"Ephraim feedeth on the EAST wind "----how can he feed on the east wind if he's not in the west?---and twice in Jer30:11+Jer.46:28 ,YHWH says to the "House of Israel" that "He will make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee"---so who are these nations if they are not the wealthy western nations that obviously have the birthright blessings?---and YHWH told Jacob that "a company of nations was in his womb"Gen.35:11---and why do all the Ephraim nations(British Empire nations) and Manasseh(U.S.A) call themselves Christian nations--i don't buy into the Queen being from King David but that doesn't mean that England isn't Ephraim,YHWH's first born son----and you are not factoring in Moses prophecy in Deut.33:7 "with them He shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim and the thousands of Manasseh"---Joseph's two sons were to be the colonizers of Israel around the world and these nations in the last days would be the wealthiest because of the birthright blessing ----i don't know how people cannot see and understand this truth, but it is clearly in Scripture and is very important for understanding endtime prophecy---i'll put my life on Ephraim being England and Manasseh being U.S.A.,that is how convinced i am--and who is the mother in Jer.50:12 that will be sore confounded and ashamed when the hindermost(last great nation) of the nations(U.S.A.)(Babylon) shall be a wilderness, a dry land and a desert"---for me it appears as though you are not sticking to your principal of letting Scripture answer Scripture---
--about New Jerusalem being a cube or a pyramid, as it can only be one or the other,though i wouldn't bet my life on it as i would with the Ephraim nations identity, i still find in Scripture, Scripture that points toward it being a pyramid and nature points to it being a pyramid also ,as most mountains have a pyramid like shape--also the Father,Son ,Holy Spirit are THREE and a pyramid is THREE --length ,width and height, but that is a minor point!--Psalm 118:22 says"The stone which the builders rejected is become the head stone of the corner"---corner={6438}=(pinnah)an angle : by impl. an PINNACLE: a Chieftain:---bulwark,chief,corner,stay,tower.-- and a PINNACLE means a "lofty peak" or the "highest point"-----so only a capstone would fit on the highest point and that would be the top of a pyramid ---and continuing on with the principal that all answers are found in Scripture lets examine Jer.32:20 "Which has set SIGNS and WONDERS in the land of Egypt, even UNTO THIS DAY,"-- signs={226}=owth=in the sense of APPEARING; a signal(lit or fig.), as a flag,beacon,MONUMENT(building),omen,prodigy,evidence----so our Father says He set signs(monuments,buildings) in the land of Egypt that are still there to this day,so if it's not the pyramids ,what are these monuments ,seeing that the pyramids are famous worldwide and have survived these 1000's of years?---also Ezekiel 40:1,2,3,4 do not point towards the Holy Place being a cube ,in fact the word height is not mentioned until verse 8---anyway i'd bet on New Jerusalem being a pyramid, but not quite put my life on it yet--i am going to continue to pray and study for more light on the subject.
----about .A.C's identity, i don't think that one can rule out a revival of the Ottoman Empire with Turkey(Hittites) at the head---remember Great Trib. is a time of Jacob's trouble, named after the time of trouble Jacob was facing from his brother Esau who was going to kill him---so Esau has to be involved in "Jacob's Trouble" in the last days ---in Gen.25:23, YHWH says that TWO nations are in Rebekah's womb, so we have to know which nation is Esau and that would be Turkey or an other Islamic nation ,seeing that Esau married Hittite and Ishmaelite women and we know that there is an ancient hatred between Israel and Arabs, so who could the 10 kings of Rev.17:16 that hate the whore(America) be , other than Islamic nations----it seems well nigh impossible that ten European kings(Roman Empire) are going to suddenly hate America(Babylon) after being allys for decades-----we also have to factor in that Daniel received his visions in the land of Iran and we also have to factor in that the "Prince of Persia", the strongest principality over any country and only with Micheals help could Gabriel overcome this "Principality"----also ,the only other time that "two horns " are mentioned is in Daniel 8:20 and they represent the kings of the Medes and Persia and quite possibly there is a connection to Rev.13 and the false prophet.---can't be ruled out!----and also look at the Islaminization of Europe and other countries----YHWH says He has laid a snare for Babylon(America) and says He has sent in fanners ,which means foreigners!---and you havn't explained in your A.C. scenario how the A.C willthink to "change the times and laws"---Islam and Judaism are the only other religions that have different times and laws----Islam with the Friday Sabbath and Sharia law fits most for this scenario---and Islam is in the news daily stating that they want to destroy Israel and the west, so an Islamic A.C. cannot be ruled out and he could quite possibly be a Jew from the tribe of Dan that converted to Islam----in Turkey ,there are many Jews who have converted to Islam.---and the A.C. wont honour women and look how women are treated by Taliban!---and also an ancient prophecy in Gen.27:40 says "And by thy sword thou shalt live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou SHALT HAVE DOMINION, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck"---so you see , using the principal of Scripture answering Scripture , that many things point towards an Islamic AC or at least there is a 50/50 chance that it could be.---jury is still out on that one but i'm going to keep my eyes on Turkey who is trying to play both sides at the moment but is leaning more and more towards Islam----also we see two scenarios that involve the river Euphrates,Rev.9::14 and 16:12 and the river runs through Islamic countries and no doubt that the angels released were involved with those countries in the past!----
------and i don't see how it can be true that there will be no increase of population or some kind of procreation in 8th Eternal Day, because YHWH says in Deuteronomy 7:9 "which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to aTHOUSAND GENERATIONS"----by the end of the Millenium there will have been probably no more than 300 generations and probably more like 200, so there are still many more generations to come and Scripture says in Isaiah9:7"Of the INCREASE of His government and peace there will be no end"----i believe that one day we will be stewarding galaxies and stewarding the expanding universe forever and ever, after our Father trains us and tests us so as to be able to trust us.---[increase=4768=marbiyth]=a multitude; also of OFFSPRING
----so you see that from using that same principal that you adhere to and which i also espouse, i can come up with a totally different scenario than you have on certain prophecy-----that is why i also keep a keen eye on world events and watch prophecy unfold ---i believe the next prophetic event we will soon see fulfilled is the Psalm83 + Isaiah17 nuclear destruction of Damascus and Israel will be wounded, but expand it's territory---that's for taking the time to write back ---hope to hear from you again. Cheers
Response #13:
We will just have to disagree on this one. If you consult the links provided in the previous email, you will see that there is ample biblical evidence to explain how it is that those who identify themselves today as Jews are in fact the Jews, and that no one who is not so identified is Jewish. England is not in the Bible.
As to the other interpretations you advance, let's just say they are not convincing because they are not necessary results of the prophecies you quote. Let me give you just one example of what I mean on that. When our Lord tells us that "a nation will rise up against a nation", someone may have said in the last century, "this must be Nazi Germany attacking Soviet Russia, since they are the two greatest empires around". Looking back at things seventy years later, this would clearly have been a wrong interpretation and, from our now distant historical perspective, seems not at all persuasive (though it might have seemed so at the time). All of the examples you adduce (i.e., Hosea 11:10; Jer30:11; Jer.46:28; Gen.35:11; Jer.50:12; Deut.33:17), admit of other interpretations – and admit of other interpretations which do not require applying them to extra-biblical history and geography. That is an important point since, to my way of reading prophecy, nearly everything else we have in scripture is directly accommodated precisely to biblical history and geography (even when it does have a wider scope).
Just by way of example, let's look at Deuteronomy 33:17. Manasseh's portion in the land was the entire northeast border region (from Mt. Hermon south across the Yarmuk). So as the tribe which fronted on "the nations", it is not beyond understanding that Manasseh would be prophesied to "gore" them. This is certainly fulfilled historically at least in part by Gideon's great victory over the nations which invaded Israel and likewise in the victories of Jephthah over the Ammonites. The point is, there is absolutely no need to jump many logical steps here and apply this verse to Britain and the US, and, indeed, without having the theory first, such a connection would never be made. Whenever I see a "theory-driven" teaching of this sort, the first question is always "is there any verse in the Bible which directly supports the theory and so invites us to look for it elsewhere?" If there is not – and in the case of British Israelitism there is not – then it should be discarded as untrue.
On pyramids, most of them have four sides. If New Jerusalem were in any way pyramidal, the pyramid would have to have four sides since we know that the city itself has four sides (with three gates per side of the corresponding wall). The holy of holies is clearly the precise same dimensions in all its iterations (see the link: The Holy of Holies). God's "signs" in Egypt do not include the pyramids. These are pagan structures built in deference to pagan gods in the furtherance of pagan notions of eternal life (wherever they are found). All the more reason not to find a pyramid in the New Jerusalem where it is not present in the actual text.
I am sorry if you find Revelation 17:16 "impossible", but that is precisely what the text says.
I have dealt with antichrist's changes in times and laws extensively in the Coming Tribulation series (see the link).
Yes, we do have to rule out an Islamic antichrist since the beast comes from Revived Rome (Rev.17 et al.), the opponent of the Islamic confederation (i.e., the southern three nations/power-spheres/horns).
There will be no more human beings produced when the seven years of human history come to an end (that is the point of our Lord's comparison: in this respect we will be "like the angels"). The human race is a perfect continuum, a perfect number, and not an accident even in its smallest parts, individual human beings, all of whom have been written in the book of life before the world was made (see the link: Unbelievers in the Plan of God).
I hope that if you decide to look into the many links I have given you that you will find that the interpretation given in the Coming Tribulation series (which covers most of the issues we've been addressing; see also the Satanic Rebellion series and the Bible Basics series), you will find that it is a case of the sum being more than the individual parts taken one by one. Not only is every principle derived directly from scripture on scripture's own terms (your hermeneutics differ from mine considerably, I think it is safe to say), but when these series are viewed as a whole a certain precision of the intersection of point to point is an argument in favor of seeing the whole as correct. That is to say, any individual point may seem persuasive, viewed in a vacuum, but to put the whole puzzle together in a way that actually works is not so easy to do; when it is done, it deserves a little respect, even if everything does not seem perfect to the beholder.
Yours in Jesus Christ the Lord, through whom alone we are saved through faith in His Name,
Bob L.
Question #14:
Dear Robert,
Thanks for writing back----you still haven't said who you think the multitude of nations are with birthright blessing who were to come from Ephraim's seed----we know who the 'House of Judah" is,but who are the "House of Israel" nations? they have to be somewhere because Israel prophecied that they would be--anyway ,nothing will ever change my mind on England being Ephraim and Manasseh(even sounds like U.S.A.) being America and i would take a bullet for it being the truth!--for me it is completely 110% obvious and it is to many others also.---and it is not a coincidence that Jeremiah's endtime Babylon judgement starts with verse 50---50 States in U.S.A and Cain--ada who has become just like the Whore is the 51st---Jer.50 and 51----U.S.A. and Cain--ada!--Cain-ada's long been called the 51st State!
------I don';t know where in Scripture you are finding this Roman Empire Revival hypothesis,because Daniel7:7 says that the 4th Beast was DIVERSE from all the other Beasts and it had ten horns,so that is obviously talking about a yet to come 4th Beast Kingdom, because it had ten horns, which the little horn comes out of----the Roman Empire didn't have 10 horns and it didn't have a little horn(Antichrist) come out of it----so there is no Scripture to back up this Roman Empire hypothesis that many have latched onto----the 4th Beast Kingdom has never been yet,being diverse from all the others, and is the soon coming New World Order.--the most difficult thing for a human to do is admit we are wrong!--that is why Cain killed his brother Abel---many humans will kill rather than admit they are wrong -- -it's Hell to be wrong and we all have to go through it at some point in our life ,because Satan deceives WHOLE world.
------even with New Jerusalem's pyramid having four sides,a pyramid still basically looks like like a triangle when looked at from any point in the distance ---all through Scripture is written ,the mountain of the Lord,the mountain of the Lord,and original garden of Eden was a mountain(Ezekiel28:14) in which a river flowed down from and broke into four parts and watered the whole earth--- there are mountain ranges all around me where i live,ad over 90% are shaped like a pyramid an d if you look at the famous mountains of the world ,almost all of them are pyranmids!---and ask yourself, what will be more beautiful to look at when Holy City sits on earth ,,a pyramid or a big square box(like Wallmart!) like a cube and a pyramid does away with needing a roof---in your scenario,there will have to be a 1500 sq. mile roof on top---doesn't make any sense at all---and yes pyramids in Egypt are pagan structures, but are you trying to say that Satan's pagans don't ever imitate YHWH?---we know that Satan wants humans to worship him(Matthew 4), so wouldn't it be conceivable that he would imitate YHWH in anyway he can in order to deceive humanity---
-"angels in heaven ,don't marry", but angels that left heaven did as in Genesis 6:2----that is the same verse that people use to deny that "sons of God" means angels and that they married women and produced giants, because they say "angels don't marry"---and you still didn't explain how 1000 generations will be produced, because the human race hasn't come close to having produced 1000 generations -----before Adam and Eve fell to Satan's deception,they were commanded(Gen.1:28) to be fruitful and multiply and they were without sin yet and were to be immortal---so are you saying that it's not possible that the 8th day eternal nations couldn't be like Adam and Eve as they were in the original state,whom before the sinned and fell ,were able to procreate----i don't see how you can rule out the possiblity that eternal nations will procreate just as Adam and Eve were able to before their fall----and ask yourself, if Adam and Eve hadn't fallen,what would their children have been like, because they were commanded to procreate, and at what point would their children stop growing and aging and remain immortal forever and ever.---and King David says in Ps.8 that "YHWH has made man to have DOMINION over the WORKS of His hands" and those works include the whole universe as stated in 8:3"When i consider the heavens ,the Work of Thy fingers,the moon and the stars,whichThou hast ordained"
------and i don't see how you can rule out an Islamic A.C. when their belief is is that YHWH can't have a Son and they are willing to violently and brutally enforce their doctrine-----that is exactly what John says about A.C.----He will deny that Yahshua is the Son of God---an Islamic A.C cannot be ruled out ,though only time will tell----but one thing is for sure, the Roman Empire Revival scenario can be totally ruled out because Daniel clearly says so in Dan.7:7---diverse 4th Beast Kingdom has never been yet and is soon to come and the 10 horn and "little horn" scenario proves that completely---Greece means the "west" and the Roman Empire came out of one of the four heads of the leopard kingdom-----as i said before ,the distinguishing10 horns are the complete proof of this, as Rome didn't have ten horns!---"arab" means to "lie in wait" or to" ambush" and our Father says He has laid a snare for Baylon(America)and has sent in "fanners" (foreigners) to Babylon (America) and if these fanners aren't Muslim,then they must be Chinese, because they have to be someone,as our Father confirmed that He was going to do it.---and Zechariah 9:13 says"and raised up thy sons ,O ZION,against thy sons ,O GREECE,and made thee as a sword of a mighty man"----if Rome is the great 4th BEAST DIVERSE KINGDOM why does it say Greece and this shows that Rome and all the West are still called and considered by YHWH to be a part of Greece!---for me it does anyway---.cheers-- i will keep studying your writings---thanks for writng back---feel free to keep in touch.
Response #14:
As far as "where are the lost tribes?", I had referred you to a number of links where this question is considered in some detail. In a nutshell, there is ample evidence in scripture to show that while many individuals were lost from history as a result of the Assyrian deportation, the tribes themselves were not: sufficient numbers were left in the land and preserved in the south for all of the tribes to be represented then and now. Just by way of example, Luke 2:36 tells us about a certain "Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher". This is a very informative glimpse into the constitution of the Jewish people in Christ's day. It shows that 1) a remnant of even the smaller northern tribes had been preserved, and 2) Jews of that day still knew their tribal affiliations. If you are interested in the other details, please see the links "How many tribes", and "Who are the ten lost tribes" (along with the other links these will direct you to). And again, even if there were not ample evidence from the Bible to show that Israel as a whole survived in the south (which there is), that would still not be any reason to find "Israel" in England. There is no rational way to connect the mostly Germanic English people to the entirely Jewish nation of Israel. All twelve tribes are "somewhere": in Israel and in Jewish communities around the world. There is not a shred of historical information or biblical support for this British Israelite theory. Period.
The revived Rome interpretation is entirely biblical. John is told that one of the seven kings in the sequential list of kings "now is", and at time of writing this king has to be the Roman emperor Nero (a point on which almost all interpreters agree, secular as well as Christian). So the beast in Revelation 17 is Rome and her eschatological ruler, antichrist (all of this is explained in the links previously provided; this is shorthand here). John is also told that the beast will "rise from the Abyss". Since Rome has "perished", but the beast which will rise must be Rome, we unquestionably have to do with a revived Roman empire consisting of the major territorial areas Rome once ruled. While the precise identification of the ten kings and kingdoms varies, this again is a point of interpretation which is well nigh universal. That might not make it necessarily correct, but it does mean that an alternative theory which made better sense would have to be produced before discarding an interpretation which flows directly from scripture. It is also instructive to note that there are many other points of convergence which hang together perfectly once a revived Rome is understood as the beast's future empire to come (I do distinguish it from Babylon as you know), and it is very difficult to see how all these points (discussed at the link: CT 3B: Antichrist and his Kingdom) could possibly be satisfied by any other potential candidate for the imperial beast. You do not seem to propose an alternative. If you would suggest an Islamic empire, consider that no such thing as Islam even existed when John is told the ruler of the beast "now is". Your disagreement based upon Daniel 7:7 is not convincing. Daniel only says that the fourth beast would be different from the first three, and so historical Rome most certainly was, in very many ways! So also will it be in its second iteration. But if an empire which conquered the known, civilized world (from the biblical point of view) and established the pax Romana to such a complete degree that the Bible calls those days "the fulness of times" (at least partly for that reason), it would seem than any alternative empire, including a Muslim one (which did not even exist in John's day) would actually have the problem you identify in Daniel 7:7 (although Rome does not).
On New Jerusalem, scripture describes it as scripture describes it (see the link: The Nature of New Jerusalem). There is much we don't know about it, but that is all the more reason to stick closely with what the Bible actually says rather than speculating in the few areas where we do not have to. The covering of the city, deliberately analogous to the tabernacle (in fact the latter is a type to its antitype), is transparent gold. So, no, it won't look like Walmart – it will be the most beautiful thing you have ever seen. There are no pyramids in God's designs. These are pagan shapes. Your argument about Satan's deceptiveness exactly proves my point: the devil does mimic God but he always changes something. That is nature of his deceit. Changing the perfect cube to a pyramid is a good example: close, attractive, persuasive . . . but of the devil, not of God.
There is no evidence from scripture that angels ever produced other angels. From everything scripture has to say about the subject, it is reasonable to conclude that the Lord created all of angelic kind at once and that there have never been more or less than there were at that instant of creation (see the link: BB 2A Angelology). Really, that is the only way to read our Lord's words about angels not "marrying and giving in marriage". As to the angelic infiltration of Genesis six, there is no "marriage" only cohabitation (the Hebrew only says "took women"). What these demons did was horrific and completely against God's natural order and law as well as His will. That is why those responsible have been "confined to pits of darkness and reserved for judgment" as a result (2Pet.2:4), that is, cast into the Abyss for their transgression (see the link: Genesis 6). Angels have the ability to manipulate the material realm in ways we cannot really imagine except from the few glimpses we get from scripture. This sort of genetic manipulation of the fauna of the pre-Gap earth was no doubt one of the reasons for the destruction the Lord leveled on earth that occasioned its re-creation in Genesis 1:2ff. The number of generations and how they are measured is something no one knows. Suffice it to say on that subject that there may have been myriad generations before the flood and also in the days immediately thereafter because of the fecundity of human beings and their longer life-spans before the effects of the global changes wrought by the great flood began to take effect (e.g., we know that there were cities very soon after the expulsion from Eden and also cities again very soon after only eight emerged from the ark). Also, the Millennium will no doubt see a population boom so dramatic that this figure could seem small once history comes to an end. This is only even an issue for someone who wants to measure a generation by oldest son to oldest son and then hold scripture and this verse to that arbitrary measure, something that is not required by or indicated from the Bible or biblical usage.
As pointed out above, there is no way to make Daniel 7:7 rule out Rome – in fact it confirms it (i.e., because of Rome's uniqueness). In Jeremiah 51:2, the "winnowers" are destroyers, and this passage is one in a long list of verses which describe the destruction of Babylon during the waning days of the Great Tribulation – along with the entirety of Revelation chapter 18. These will come from all of antichrist's forces, the ethnic composition of which is not made clear in the Bible for obvious reasons (see the link: Babylon Destroyed). The reason for the reference to Greece in Zechariah 9:13 is to capture the historical parallel with Antiochus Epiphanes, one of the most notorious types of the beast (as discussed in an earlier email). Since Antiochus and his troops were essentially "Greek", this verse works prophetically in regard to the actual Antiochus and his forces (in a literal way vis-a-vis the Maccabees) and also to the eschatological Antiochus, namely antichrist (in a typological way). There is a system to applying and understanding these things correctly, and I have outlined that in the first part of Coming Tribulation at the link: "Hermeneutic Issues".
I do hope you will find the above useful. These matters are of great importance "as you see the day coming closer" (Heb.10:25). I also hope that you can see by now – especially if you have had a look at any of the links – that all of the above is based upon a systematized, integrated interpretation which answers many more questions than it raises. That fact alone should commend for it a small modicum of respect, even from those who vigorously disagree with some of the conclusions.
In the Name of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, true God and true man who died for us.
Bob L.
Question #15:
Hi Robert,
Chron.10:19 says" and Israel rebelled against the house of David(Judah) unto this day"----i believe "jew" is short for Judah alone----so if they are rebelling ,then they are not living side by side as you suggest and this is confirmed when our Father says He will bring the two sticks together in next age and Judah will no longer oppress Israel and Israel will not envy Judah----when i say Ephraim is British Empire and Manasseh is America i'm talking about the '
"house of Joseph" who had the birthright blessing of material wealth-----i'm not talking about the other so called lost tribes even though we can see that the tribe of Dan left their name on countries(Denmark) and rivers and towns as the migrated west----the birthright is mentioned a few times and we are reminded again in 1Chronicles 5:1 " forasmuch as Rueben defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given to unto the SONS of Joseph the son of Israel"---do you really think that our Father would set things up in the last days so that we couldn't identify the nations that had the birthright blessing , seeing how it was such a big deal for Jacob to snatch it from Esau and such a big dead for Esau to lose it in that he was going to kill Jacob?---- the one verse about Anna being from Asher is not enough to build a truth on and i suggest she was a rarity rather a common occurance, seeing how James writes to the Twelve Tribes scattered abroad----
-------I don't know how you can say that Rome was that unique(diverse)-----they copied the Greeks in many ways and adopted Greek Gods and changed the names---Greece is considered the cradle of western civilization and Rome could easily be considered an extension of Greece and be that "one is" that John heard.---also if we use the Roman Empire for ten kings origin you have to include the eastern leg of Roman Empire which includes Constantinople---the vision of the beast in Rev .13:2, a bears feet suggest to me,not only strength to rip and tear and devour ,but also the area from where his kingdom arises and we know that the bear represents Media --Persia---i've studied through your Tribulation series again and i agree with your timeline of trumpet and bowl judgements and timing of two prophets,but not necessarily their identity, and 144,000 evangelizing during first half of Trib. week----i don't agree that Rev.17:10 seven kings means the Roman Emperors--i believe it means "Kingdoms"---Egypt;Assyria;Babylon;Persia etc.----we agree that endtime Mystery Babylon is America and New York is great city Babylon---endtime Babylon of Jer.50+51 is definitely a superpower nation, steering affairs of whole world,hammer of the whole earth,with a space program, and spreading her fornication and immorality and forcing it on all nations!-----don't you think that the A.C . will have to destroy the Whore and get her off his back soon after Abomination of Desolation is set up, in order for the whole world to say " who can war against the Beast"---somehow he will astonish the world with his power(supernatural) and people will be bewitched and amazed and destroying superpower America would ,for me , perfectly fit this scenario---i feel it's possible that New York, with U.N, will be destroyed early into final 31/2 years,and it is a mortal wound for the nation ,but not a complete destruction, which comes later in Rev.16:19---this begs the question?---how long will the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her (New York) after her destruction in one hour?Rev.18:11---i can't see the A.C. allowing the U.N to dictate to him during his 3 1/2 years of complete supernatural power ,that allows him to destroy all the world's strongholds and forecasting supernatural devices against them!----"And the fruits that thy soul lusted after , and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all" Rev.18:14---question is?---how long shall America,(Babylon the Great),Mother of Prostitutes, have to suffer this punishment(correction) of deprivation from YHWH?
-------don't see how you can say that YHWH doesn't use pyramidal or triangular shapes in His creation, since most mountains(His Handiwork) are that shape and many crystals in their natural state appear as cubes and also pyramids!
------I have more that i would like to discuss with you ,and I'm sure i will, as i continue to study in depth your writings ---i loved studying your teaching about the sea, whom YHWH said "here shall your proud waves be stayed"Job----i didn't understand that HADES was under the sea,but now it makes total sense and increases my understanding of why the sea releases the the "dead" and you opened up verses in Job for me, that didn't understand before--cheers and thanks---i love very much, learning new things about our awesome Father and Yahshua His Son,Creator of Heaven and Earth---i hope to hear your thoughts on what i have shared.
Gog be A.C., when is A.C. thrown alive into Lake of Fire and Gog and all his multitude are buried for 7 months by the house of Israel?
Even though i just wrote that i agree that the Two Witnesses and 144,000 prophecy first three and a half years of 7year Trib., now once again i'm not so sure of that timeline ,since Matthew 24:14 says"And the gospel of the of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; then shall THE END COME".---this verse throws a wrench into the first 31/2 years being the time of their preaching, at least it does for me!---this verse says that the gospel will be preached right up until end, so who will be preaching it right up untill the end ,if the Two Witnesses and 144,000 are martyred 1/2 way through Trib. week---does Messiah not mean the "very end" of the week ,when He says "then the end shall come"---i've read your hypothesis that angels Rev.14:6 will preach the everlasting gospel to humanity, but i'm not so sure about that---how do you suppose they will manifest themselves---will they appear in human form as young men as they came to Lot and Abraham, for surely they are not going to invisibly preach it out of the sky!---for years it's been a constant back and forth for me,as to the accurate timeline of Two Witnesses and 144,000, because i feel it's very important for us to understand the correct timing and every time i think i have it right , there always seems to be Scripture that throws a wrench in the timeline---i'm wondering what your take is on how gospel will be preached right up until the end?
Response #15:
Chronicles was written before the Babylonian captivity, so that "unto this day" refers to somewhere in the seventh century B.C.
Anna is a key piece of evidence which shows that even the small tribe of Asher left a remnant in the south – how much more so then would larger tribes like Ephraim and Manasseh not have done so? There are other verses in the links given which demonstrate that all of the twelve tribes left a remnant in the south.
There is no connection between Dan and Denmark. Denmark is the "land of the Danes". There is, however, a very close connection between the population of Britain and Denmark in terms of common DNA as recent studies have shown (not surprising since the island was colonized the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes (aka. Danes: cf. "Jutland", the name of the main Danish peninsula). In your arrangement of these matters, however, if Denmark is Dan, how did Manasseh end up in Britain coming from "the land of Dan"? Also, how is that Jews who were settled people then escaped from northern Iraq, became nomadic peoples, migrated across Europe, retained their tribal identities through all that – but now somehow have no memory of them? There is no parallel in history of settled peoples becoming nomadic en masse. On the other hand, according to your scenario, the Jews of today, I suppose, are not Jews at all? These people clearly came from in large part from Judea, a territory where Judah and Benjamin, and Levi, and Simeon were territorially represented (and, as I say, the other tribes were represented in terms of a remnant as in the case of Asher; also see 2Chron.10:17; 11:16; 15:9; 34:33). It doesn't take a large remnant for God to restore a tribe. The originals grew from one son each, and remember that from a mere six hundred surviving men only (Judg.20:47), the tribe of Benjamin was restored to be one of the more numerous tribes in Israel. Finally, James' salutation proves the point decisively: "To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations" (Jas.1:1 NIV). James was writing in Greek to Jews in the Greek speaking world, that is, throughout the Mediterranean litoral. That means he was writing to Jewish communities in the Greek cities from Ephesus and Athens to Marseilles, and that there were representatives of all twelve tribes in the Jewish diaspora. So when Paul goes to Corinth, e.g., and preaches in the synagogue there, the Jews were from all manner of tribes, not just Judah. And consider:
Now the first inhabitants that [dwelt] in their possessions in their cities [were], the Israelites, the priests, Levites, and the Nethinims. And in Jerusalem dwelt of the children of Judah, and of the children of Benjamin, and of the children of Ephraim, and Manasseh;
1st Chronicles 9:2-3 KJV
As I say, the previous links lay this all out in more detail. There is not a shred of evidence for British Israelitism (aside from pure speculation). Moreover, the "theory" always tends to antisemitism (if not you personally, certainly any group with which you might associate who believes this theory), and there is no quicker way to run afoul of God's will (e.g., Ezek.25; please see the links: "Some Jewish Issues" and "Anti-Semitism").
On Rome, well, I am a Classics professor with a Ph.D. in the discipline, so I suppose I have some basis for rendering this opinion. There is an old saying, "the Greeks and their brains, the Romans and their drains", which is a cute way of pointing out that the practical administrative side of things was the Roman genius (rather than the philosophical and theoretical side, the forte of the Greeks). Rome conquered the world, and administered it with an efficiency and effectiveness that has never been matched before or since. Furthermore, its military might sets it apart and makes it "different" from the other three world empires in Daniel's prophecy (precisely the main point of the prophecy: iron teeth, claws etc.). Not only that: Rome is the only empire which even comes close to filling these specifications, both historically and also in terms of possible prophetic fulfillment (i.e., there is no way Greece or Iraq or Iran, the power centers of the other three empires in Daniel, can possible fit the bill today). Alexander's accomplishments were spectacular but they were directed against one empire only and did not survive his death by even a few years. By way of stark contrast the Roman empire lasted for centuries (and involved the conquest of nations and empires from Britain to Ptolemaic Egypt and from Germany to Carthage).
The two witnesses are most definitely Moses and Elijah. You have read the rationales for this. For the apologetics please see the extensive set of questions and answers at the link: The Two Witnesses of the Tribulation: Moses and Elijah.
On the beast being "one of the seven, and also an eighth", with "five fallen", there is no biblical support for finding "five empires" which represent these five fallen. Certainly, there have been plenty of "empires" in the past, but no "notable five", and all attempts to go that route have failed for that reason (I note that, just as Daniel did, you stop at three). No, these are personal rulers, and that is why the phrase "one is" refers to Nero (who, as I mentioned, is identified in this way by virtually all commentators on Revelation of every stripe, so clear is the association); antichrist is "the seventh" who "will be" in the future. But we have been over this ground now a number of times. For a recent, exhaustive coverage of this question from all manner of angles please see the link: "The 7 Trumpets, the 7 Kings, Nephilim, Antichrist and Revived Rome".
I don't identify New York as "the great city". The word "city" in Greek is polis and refers not to a "city" in our sense of the word but to a "country". The Greek word for "city proper" is asty, but the polis of Athens, for example, encompassed much territory which even today is rural, mountainous and uninhabited. Babylon as a whole is meant by this phrase (although I will concede that New York is one of the last places I would care to be some weeks after we have all heard the angel proclaim "Flee Babylon!").
Mountains are never perfectly shaped (of any shape); the New Jerusalem is described as perfectly proportional in every respect. Were it in the shape of a pyramid, it would have been easy to say so. Instead, the dimensions we are given are incompatible with those of a pyramid. I am unaware of any perfectly proportional pyramidal shapes in nature. Even if there are, that would hardly be germane to the argument. There are perfect cube shapes in nature – which doesn't prove that New Jerusalem is a perfect cube. What does that is the testimony of scripture.
Antichrist is thrown into the lake of fire – along with his false prophet – as the first act of our Lord when He returns to destroy the assembled forces of the beast (Rev.19:20). The dead are buried during the first months of the Millennium.
Finally, on the two witnesses again, I invite you to have a look at the link mentioned above. The book of Revelation is a prophecy given in chronological order. While there are portions which reach back and or forward because a new subject is being introduced (in its chronological place), this basic rule is never violated – and what a blessing that is, because otherwise it would be impossible to interpret. The discussion of the two witnesses prior to the seventh trumpet at Revelation 11:15, which trumpet begins the third woe which must be the Great Tribulation, guarantees that their ministry is confined to the Tribulation's first half.
The witness to the gospel during the last three and a half years will be largely given by the martyrs, first the 144,000, but then the one third of the Church destined to perish for Jesus Christ. This is one of the reasons we are told "not to consider ahead of time" what we will say. The Spirit, the Agent of evangelism, is the One "who will be speaking through you" (e.g., Matt.10:19-20). Yes, the powerful angel will also give the message, but the witness of the martyrs will be continual throughout those final 42 months.
Yours in Jesus Christ the Faithful Witness and our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #16:
Hi Robert,
Thanks for your reply----i can see that we will just have to agree to disagree on a few things---i'm completely confident now though ,after more study and prayer,that the Two Witnesses' prophecy takes place during the first 1/2 of Trib. week----it has to be,since our Father says He will send strong delusion that they believe a lie and be damned----that delusion has to be the Beast rising from the dead shortly after he defiles the temple mid week!----YHWH gives the world a warning and chance to repent by sending Two Witnesses and 144,000 and instead of repenting,they kill the Two Witnesses and celebrate,so our Father now sends strong delusion.--i'm happy that i've finally got that cleared up ---it's settled!---i still have a problem understanding this though----if the Bowl Judgements are poured out in the last year ,the 7th, how does the world come to say "peace, peace, and then sudden destruction comes upon them----with the 5th Bowl cast on the seat of the beast,and they knaw their tongues for pain, how can they also say "peace ,peace"---maybe the Bowl Judgements come after they say "peace,peace"----another scenario that is difficult to grasp is this--the A.C. makes a peace treaty with the "many" and at least 6 months before,but maybe 13months +one hour before,a 200,000,000 army sweeps across the world and kills 1/3 of humanity--Two Witnesses are killed at end of 6th Trumpet----is it this same 200,000,000 army that comes into Jerusalem at mid week Trib.?--how can this be a peace treaty with the "many" when a 1/3 of humanity is being slaughtered by 200,000,000 man army?---who and where is the 1/3 of humanity being slaughtered?
-----New York has to be that "city" that has men in ships standing afar off and see the smoke of her burning(radiation smoke)---it is commonly understood even amongst atheists, that if the New York Stock Exchange goes, the whole economy of the world collapses---surely you see that the Twin Tower bombing was a precursor of what is to come---yes ,all of U.S.A. is Babylon ,but it also has one great city unto which all the nations flow and that is New York, which is home to the United Nations---surely you see that U.N., founded by the Illuminati puppies from Hell,ie Rothschilds and Rockefellars etc.,is a modern Tower of Babel---the one "Great City" also has to be a major sea[port and New York fits the bill completely.---and many leaders of the world store their gold in Manhattan which is just like Tyre ,an island city,whose streets were paved with gold!--NewYork will definitely be nuked,and we know that Iran would do it now if they could!---YHWH's laid a snare for America.
------i studied again your writings about Great White Throne Judgement and to me it sounds like you have forgotten that Messiah Yahshua preached the gospel in Hades when He was there for 3days and nights(1Peter 4:6 +1Peter3:19,20)---inmates of Sheol,Hades,after paying for every sin, are given a chance to hear the gospel,just as the disobedient from flood period heard the gospel after 2500 years or so---Messiah says "they wont get out of that prison(spiritual) until they've paid the utmost farthing" then they hear the gospel and are given a chance to acknowledge Messiah--YHWH's great mercy!---Philipians 2:10 and Rev 5:13 says "and every creature which is in heaven,and on earth,and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and ALL that are in them,heard i saying ,Blessing and honour, anfd glory,and power,be unto HIM that sits upon the throne, and unto the the Lamb forever and ever"---so we see that people under the earth can repent and acknowledge YAHSHUA as the Messiah, which is only fair,in that many people never had a chance to hear the gospel in their lifetime and others were deceived by Satan---it's only fair that YHWH will give most people another chance after Satan is removed from the scene---most salvation is to take place in the next age when Satan's gone-----it is not our fault that we were created in an age that has a "enemy" that hates all mankind, even the ones that do his bidding---when the angels were created ,they had no enemies and now man is created to undo the works of the evil one,so that a created being ,through love and obedience to YHWH,will bring the end of a created being----most people born in this age will be given another chance at some point in the next age,to hear the gospel and obey ,without the great deceiver to deceive them---otherwise YHWH wouldn't be fair and would not be a God in whom above all "delights in mercy"---Messiah's preaching in Hades is key to understanding YHWH's great plan of salvation who would that "all men be saved" and don't forget "all Israel will be saved"--i believe it is entirely possible that the martyred Two Witnesses might preach gospel in Hades for 31/2 days before their resurrection.
----don't see how knowing which endtime countries (Ephraim+Manasseh=Israel) have the birthright blessings could lead to anti-semitism---it's makes me love all Israel even more!---and i certainly don't hang out with any groups of any kind ---i don't even go near disgusting lying Christian churches of any kind either. ---i am a complete loner and sit alone, like Jeremiah did with the truth burning within him---"two cannot walk together ,unless they be agreed" and i certainly don't agree with any of the lying pastors in the disgusting churches that look like funeral homes and thank goodness our Father is not found in a temple made with hands--i know that Paul concils that we don't neglect gathering together in the last days,but who is one going to gather with ---certainly not the swarm of perverted greedy cowardly vermin that flock together to hear watered down prophecy from greedy pastors_--- for me it is more "every man now run and save his own soul."---you still haven't indicated who you think the birthright blessing nations are who were to spring from Ephraim's seed.---they have to be somewhere or else YHWH wouldn't have said these were prophecies pertaining to the last days.
---another thing i have trouble rapping my wee brain around is this----how is the world going to,or at least the Christian and Jewish part, believe that .A.C. is Messiah Yahshua, when A.C, with his fierce countenance, spends most of the last 3/12 years killing and slaughtering most of humanity?---Yahshua was a very humble and meek and gentle man in His first Advent and laid down His life like a lamb to the slaughter and now He returns and slaughters most of humanity for 31/2 years---we know that He slaughters the armies of the world at the very end when they are gatherd together against Him for Armageddon, but not for 31/2 years of straight slaughter before that!----it is hard for me to understand how even the most braindead Christian,and there are many,wouldn't be able to see through that, because of A.C.'s cruelty and violence will be the complete antithesis of Messiah, who is and was meekness and love---i suggest that the sodomite A.C . wont honour any God at all and will be a total military force man and a money man and an "anything goes and is permissable" type,which the perverted Sodomite and Lesbian world will love and will use Illuminati -Freemason secret society type witchcraft to deceive ----after all ,it is only the Illuminati,Freemason secret society groups etc., that have for hundreds of years,been writing about and implementing this New World Order crap, which is the coming "Fourth Beast Kingdom"--i'd like to hear your opinion about this scenario.---one more point ---i agree that Rome must be important and mentioned in Scripture,in that it is the Roman age that Messiah appears and is crucified and resurrected and it is the Roman age that early Christians suffer great persecution---and it is the Roman age that produces the the whore called Catholic Church---but there is still one truth that many overlook in Daniel 2:32 which says "images head was of fine gold,his breast and his arms of silver,his belly AND THIGHS of brass-- 33)and had legs of of iron,his feet part of iron and clay"-----so the the Greek Empire of brass includes the TWO THIGHS which extend to the knee, so the Greek Kingdom is also described as having broken into TWO PARTS, which must have become the king of the North and the king of the South----and the Roman Empire starts at the knees of the statue and so continues on from the TWO PARTS that originally came form the Greek Kingdom, or third beast brass empire.---when you get time ,i would love to hear your thoughts on this---thanks for writing ---cheers
Response #16:
On "peace and safety" in 1st Thessalonians 5:3, this will be the reaction of the world (especially in places like Babylon and Israel) when the beast disappears into the darkness of the north occasioned by the 5th Bowl Judgment (Rev.16:10) in order to quell the "reports" of rebellion in his foundational empire mentioned in Daniel 11:45 (see the link: "The 5th Bowl Judgment"). This jubilation will be short-lived, however, when antichrist reemerges, destroys Babylon, and brings on the battle of Armageddon.
There are a very large number of passages which discuss Babylon's destruction (see the link). Taken together, it is very difficult to restrict the meanings to a single metropolitan area (but I am certain NY will be a prime target for the pillaging that is prophesied).
Our Lord's descent into Paradise occasioned not a "preaching of the gospel" to dead human beings in torments, but an "announcement of His victory" to the fallen angels incarcerated in Tartarus (aka., the Abyss). That is what 1st Peter 3:19-20 is referring to (and pretty clearly says, to my mind). The Greek verb there is kerusso (referring to any proclamation – here the notice of the victory on the cross which lets the incarcerated demons know that all their hopes have been dashed), not the verb usually translated "preach" in Bible versions, euangelizo, which means, etymologically, give the good news". This is not good news for the demons who are the "spirits incarcerated" who "disobeyed in the days of Noah" (v.20) because they "kept not their first estate" (Jude 1:6) but "sinned" in pursing "strange flesh" and have consequently been "plunged them into Tartarus with its gloomy pits" (2Pet.2:4). See the link: "Christ's Preaching to the Spirits in Hell". 1st Peter 4:6 is speaking not of incarcerated demons in Hades but of the spiritually dead human beings now alive on earth. The aorist tense here should be translated as an English perfect (as the NASB does: "For the gospel has for this purpose been preached"), or, better, seen as a gnomic aorist representing a general condition: "For this reason the gospel is preached . . . so that they may live". For the sense of it is true still today nearly two millennia later.
It is very important to understand that while we may think of things as "unfair", God knows much better than we do what is going on in every person's heart. There has never been a time when a human being who might want to be saved given "prime conditions" was not saved. Everyone in hell is there by choice. Naturally, no one in hell wants to be there, but if given a thousand lifetimes they would still make the same decision of choosing their own ways over God's one way in Jesus Christ. Only once in hell would they "repent" and that repentance is, needless to say, not genuine, but along the lines of Pharaoh who kept saying "I have sinned this time" in order to get the pressure released and reverted just as soon as it was. This important point and related issues are taken up in very great detail at the link in BB 4B: Soteriolgy, under "God's Plan to Save You".
On anti-Semitism, I am not accusing you, but I most certainly stand by what I have said and have observed in these groups. In addition to being true, it does make a certain logical sense, after all. If someone says "we are the true Jews", then it stands to reason that those who claim to be Jews are "not Jews but liars". Once it comes to labeling the Jewish community as false and not even truly Jewish, it is already a matter of being close to full-blown anti-Semitism, and actions usually follow attitudes.
The difference is between the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. Most of antichrist's most obvious excesses occur during the latter not the former. After all, we know full well that he tries to destroy Israel, but we also have it on very good authority that he makes a treaty, a "Covenant" (which will seem Messianic) with Israel "during the middle of the week" (Dan.9:27). The conquest of the south which leaves the entire world in the beast's lap, and the attempted assassination of antichrist shortly thereafter will be the pivotal events which turn Tribulation into Great Tribulation, set off the "mark of the beast" campaign and the accompanying Great Persecution (which claims Moses and Elijah and the 144,000 as its first martyrs), and produce the most terrible time earth has ever seen.
Babylon is the Great Prostitute. She is the place where the beast's eclectic religion will flourish and, prior to antichrist's move to Jerusalem, will be centered. That is one of the reasons for her judgment and destruction, namely, her birthing and nourishing of the persecution that his religion will unleash.
"And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."
Revelation 18:24 NASB
The Aramaic word in Daniel 2:32, me'ohi (מְעֹוהִי), which most versions do translate "thighs" (incorrectly), refers to the statues "sides" or "loins" (i.e., torso between the hips as opposed to the chest). NKJV gets this right. See any Hebrew lexicon (e.g., Strongs or BDB).
Yours in Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #17:
Hello Robert,
Thanks for reply----i have a few more questions and observations ,if you don't mind---- i don't know from studying your writings if you agree that Japheth is father mostly of the oriental peoples---God will "enlarge" Japheth.
-----if Gog is the A.C.,why is he buried(Ezk.39:11) ,instead of tossed into Lake of Fire----and if Gog is A.C. ,he is accompanid by 3 Islamic nations,Iran ,Ethiopia and Libya, so this shows that Islam is strong until the end!
----Babylon,Nineveh and Tyre were cities,not countries, so why wouldn't New York City be Great City Babylon within Mystery Babylon Great,the nation.
-----why don't treat Rev.14:7,8,9 as being chronological as you do the rest of Rev.
-----the "shout" (Jer.51:14) given when Babylon is filled with armies of men,as with caterpillars---they shall lift up a "shout" against thee----that shout(Strg.Con#1595=acclamation) could easily be an acclamation by Islam of "Allah Akbar!"
----could you tell me your understanding of how long "one hour" of Rev.17:12 is in years or months?
----little horn waxes great towards the south,toward the east,toward the pleaseant land----in your thinking where does this passage place A.C.'s starting point?
----a note about pyramid shape--interesting for me that both Hebrew and Greek Alphabets first letters are the symbol "A"a pyramid shape!
-----Gen.28:14 "And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the WEST,and to the east,and to the north and to the south: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed"---note how west is first place mentioned of where Israel was to spread out towards!
-----since 5 months is literally true for locust 5th plague,why wouldn't 6th plague month ,day ,year,hour also be literal and mean 13months and one hour ?
-----i believe 7 heads means 7 continents of the world ,especially since 4th Beast Kingdom will be global,which is also the meaning of the 7horns of Statue of Liberty(Ishtar-mother of prostitutes!) which sits at entrance of New York harbour----
-----Phil2:10+Rev5:13----how do you explain who the souls under the earth are that will bow their knee to Messiah,if after paying for their sins in death,they don't get a chance to hear the Gospel----are you trying to say that there is no chance of salvation for people who have died without ever hearing the gospel or being one of the few called in this age by YHWH----are you trying to say that YHWH doesn't take into consideration the fact that people born in this age had to suffer under Satans wiles and deceptions and murderers and people born into the next age wont have to deal with Satan at all---of course He must consider that we have been bruised and deceived by Satan,through no fault of our own, and i believe He will give most people a chance, at some point during the Millenium, to receive salvation and healing in a Satan free world----if that weren't so, then YHWH wouldn't be fair and it would be like the evolution lie that says to children born without arms and legs,too bad for your bad fortune because you only get one life -----too bad for you because of your bad luck of being born during Satan's rule of the earth and lucky we are born now under Messiah's rule!!---that can't be our Father's great mercy,in which above all He delights and i believe that "Dry Bones Resurrection" of the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel happens shortly after Messiah's return at Beginning of Millenium and they will be resurrected mortal and immortal 1st resurrection King David will rule over them,and they will loathe themselves for their past sins and through this process our Father will put a new heart and clean spirit within them and they will be offered salvation---all Israel will be saved.
-----you say that Yahshua Messiah went down into paradise, but Yahshua compares His being in the belly of the earth as being similar to being in the belly of a whale like Jonah was ----can you imagine being in the belly of a whale, dealing with the stomach acid alone must have made things very unpleasant indeed and so He certainly doesn't give a description of descending into paradise.
-----Two Witnesses could just as easily be 2 sincere zealous men like Joshua of Zechariah3:4 whose filthy garments were removed and whose iniquity was removed ---nothing impossible for YHWH.
------are you saying that the Mark of Beast is in full swing when city Babylon is destroyed and captains in ships are standing afar off and crying when they see the smoke of her burning,standing afar off for fear of nuclear smoke
---at what point do the ten kings hate the whore America-----will they hate the harlot from the beginning of the last 1/2 of Trib, week or will this hatred just arise near the end of the Great Trib.----if right from beginning they hate the Whore, why would they tolerate her for 31/2 years ---would'nt they want her out of the way almost immediately----ALL translations say in Daniel11:39"the A.C will attack the mightiest fortresses and the mightiest fortress would have to be the U.S.A.
-----Daniel 11:33,34 means that the ones instructing the many will fall by captivity,sword,flame and spoil,---it doesn't say that the "many" being instructed are the ones who are persecuted---and it says that some will join the instructors with flatteries--sometimes i notice that you twist Scripture to fit your paradigm---there is no Translation that infers that the "many" are the ones falling to captivity and flame and spoil----
-----many of your teachings are excellant and i will continue to glean much truth from them and thanks again for all of your hard work in preparing them---hope to hear from you when you get time--cheers
Response #17:
You're very welcome.
Most interpreters of whom I am aware identify Japheth with Indo-Europeans and Ham with orientals. For example, Javan seems to be pretty clearly the Greek peoples (cf. Ionians). As I have remarked before, I think it would be a great service to link up the Genesis 10 catalogs with the historical movements of the peoples and their languages, but secular scholars who have the deep and broad language skills to accomplish this monumental task don't put any faith in the Bible, while biblical scholars have much more important things to do (I certainly do, as interesting as it is).
Gog is not only antichrist but also his army. Antichrist is thrown into the lake of fire; his army is not (they are the ones buried).
The Greek says polis, "city-STATE", and the descriptions in the prophets as well as elsewhere in Revelation are difficult to reconcile with a single metropolitan area (in Greek that would be asty). If antichrist were only "king of New York", none of the prophecies would make much sense. Since the Babylon he rules would be, if it is prophetically the USA, the entire country, it still must be the entire country when it is destroyed.
I do see these angelic messages as happening at the point in the narrative when they are reported.
The shout of triumph at Jeremiah 51:14 could be many things and is not necessarily one thing.
An "hour" in biblical prophecy is a indeterminate period of time – significant, but not overly long and not specified. I take the "hour" in Revelation 17:12 to be the "short time" of the Tribulation: i.e., not precisely seven years since it will take approximately two years or so before antichrist consolidates his hold over Babylon and then manages, with the help of the seven kings, to gain control of revived Rome. And since Revelation 17:12 mentions all ten kings, this period would be reduced to include not much more than the Great Tribulation.
As to Daniel 8:9, this verse places the beast's jumping off point for his interference in Israeli affairs in Europe, that is, from his newly consolidated Revived Roman Empire. As I say in CT 3B:
Since antichrist already dominates the north (and arose in the west, Babylon), only the south, east, and Israel are outside of his complete control at this point (for while he has the secular ruler of Israel in his camp, the ministry of Moses and Elijah will still be in place and flourishing at this point). The expansion towards the south mentioned here refers to the conquest of the southern alliance in the two campaigns of Daniel chapter 11, while the eastward expansion is a reference to the progressive occupation and domination of the one other remaining quadrant of the world not as yet under the beast's direct rule.
The letter alpha is actually derived from the first letter of the Semitic alphabet, Aleph. This is actually originally a pictogram consisting of a V shape and straight line cutting through the middle of the V. It is supposed to resemble an ox (with the protruding ends of the line representing the horns). The word 'aleph in Hebrew means ox.
The Lord says this to Jacob while he was "yet one" at Bethel which is in the geographic middle of the land of Israel (somewhat north of Jerusalem). So it is certainly literally true that the children of Israel would expand from the reference point in all four directions until they had filled up the entire land.
I do take "hour and day and month and year" literally, namely to refer to a particular year (this one) a particular month (this one) a particular day (this one) and a particular hour (this one). The Greek speaks of a point of time, not of a series of durations that should be added together.
Revelation 17:9 says that "The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits". That means that the hills/mountains are seats of power. No one lives on Antarctica permanently.
God has taken absolutely everything into consideration. The heavens proclaim Him. Everyone comes to the knowledge of His existence. He is not responsible to provide the gospel to people who have come to realize He exists and that He is good, yet want nothing further to do with Him. He is not responsible to make sure that people who have rejected Him have more chances to reject Him. After death, it would hardly be a real test of choice and free will to ask if someone wanted out of hell. At the last judgment, it will be made clear that everyone in hell wanted nothing to do with God even though they knew the stakes and issues:
18) God's wrath is about to be revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness – on men who suppress the truth [in their hearts about God] in their unrighteousness. (19) For that which can be known about God [from everyday experience] is obvious to them, because God has made it obvious. (20) His nature, though invisible, is nevertheless plainly apparent, and has been since His foundation of the world, for it may be clearly inferred from this creation of His – [this is true of] both His eternal power and His divinity – so that they are without any excuse: (21) they knew about God, but they neither honored Him as God nor thanked Him. Instead, they gave themselves over to [the] vanity [of this world] in their speculations, and their senseless hearts were filled with darkness. (22) Claiming to be wise, they became foolish, (23) for they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for images and likenesses of corruptible men, of birds and beasts and reptiles. (24) For this [very] reason, God abandoned them to corruption in the lusts of their own hearts, that they might mutually defile their bodies (i.e., the very thing they lusted to do). (25) [And so] they exchanged the truth of God for the lie [of the devil], and worshiped and served the creature [Satan] in place of the Creator who is [worthy to be] blessed forever. Amen. (26) [Yes,] for this [very] reason God abandoned them to defiling passions. For their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones, (27) and likewise also the males abandoned natural relations with the female and burned with desire one for another, males for males, acting out their shamefulness in full, and in their own [flesh] fully receiving the reward due for their error. (28) And just as they did not see fit to keep God in their hearts, God abandoned them to their unfit minds, to do things which are not fitting, (29) filled up with every [sort of] unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil, full of envy, murder, strife, guile, maliciousness, gossips, (30) slanderers, God-forsaken-[and]-forsaking, insolent, arrogant, boasters, devisers of evils, not concerned for their parents, (31) unthinking, unreconcilable, uncaring, unmerciful, (32) men who though they had full knowledge of God's righteous decree, namely, that those who do such things are worthy of death, not only did [such] things themselves, but even commended those who made it their practice [to do them].
Romans 1:18-32
Please do read BB 4B Soteriology. All of these issues are discussed in very great detail there.
Jesus said: "Today, you will be with me in Paradise" (Lk.23:43).
Nothing is impossible for the Lord but on the mount of transfiguration in a preview of the second advent it is precisely Moses and Elijah who meet Jesus and discuss future events with Him. There are plenty of other reasons for the identification as well. Please see the link: The Two Witnesses of the Tribulation: Moses and Elijah.
The beast begins his campaign of marking at the commencement of the Great Tribulation when he takes his seat in the temple and sets up the abomination that causes desolation. Babylon is not destroyed until the last months of the Great Tribulation.
Babylon is the object of jealousy from the beginning. Even today, most people around the world are jealous of America. How much more will that not be the case when she is Babylon, the seat of the beast and his favorite? They cannot act on their jealous and hateful desires until it suits antichrist to have them do so (after his lieutenant betrays him in the final year of the Great Tribulation).
Daniel is some of the most difficult Hebrew to translate for a variety of reasons. For one thing, it is, in the manner of Aristotle's Greek, highly synoptic. For another, it assumes that the reader already understands the meaning – and as many translators have not, there are many problems with all of the translations found in the versions, probably more so than in any other book of scripture. Here is how I translate the passage from the original Hebrew:
(32) And with enticements he will seduce [people] to violate the covenant, but the people who know their God will continue to hold fast to it. (33) And those among the people who have insight will teach the people who will be persecuted by sword (i.e., martyrdom), and flame (i.e., torture leading to martyrdom), and captivity (i.e., imprisonment), and plundering (i.e., confiscation of property), for some time. (34) And when they are persecuted, they will receive a little help, yet many will ally themselves to them under false pretenses. (35) And even from among [the ranks of] those who have insight, some will be persecuted, in order to refine, purify, and cleanse them until the final end. For [it is] yet to come at its appointed time.
Daniel 11:32-35
It's not easy to decide to follow a Bible teacher, and every Christian is well-advised to be very careful before committing any measure of confidence so as to select a preferred source of teaching. The problem, however, is that without solid teaching, solid spiritual growth is impossible. Blessedly, nothing is impossible for God, and for all who truly knock, He truly answers and provides everything needed. It is also important to note that for those who are accessing teaching, spiritual growth is not "Smorgasbord". To the extent that a believer keeps picking and choosing "one from column A, one from column B" from a wide variety of sources, to that extent the person in question will be stunting his/her own spiritual growth – precisely because he/she is not believing, only recreating.
In great hopes of your spiritual growth, progress and production for our dear Lord Jesus.
Bob L.
Question #18:
Hello Robert,
Thanks for reply----i've been thinking alot about Gog and Magog war and i'm finding it extremely difficult to imagine that Gog is A.C,because Scripture says that he is invading Israel to take the spoil and the booty---it's difficult to imagine how Israel could be considered to be "at rest,and dwell safely" or that there will be much spoil left to take(Luke21:20) after 31/2/ years of devastation and one year of the bowl judgements---if they are dwelling safely and at rest, why does Messiah tell His people to flee the devastation coming on Jerusalem at mid-point tribulation?---something doesn't fit!
-----i'm convinced,along with many others ,that Japheth is mainly the father of the Mongoloid race---i'm wondering if factoring in Japheth as the oriental peoples would change your understanding of endtimein anyway?--one cannot rule out the possibility that Japheth fathered Mongoloid race, as many Bible scholars believe tdegreehis hypothesis.
----Jeremiah50:42,says "everyone put in array,like a man to the battle,against thee,O daughter(U.S.A.) of Babylon"--43) "King of Babylon hath heard the report of them, and his hands waxed feeble:anguish took hold of him, and pangs as of a woman in travail"---for me this verse throws a serious wrench into the A.C. being the King of Babylon
----i believe the Illuminati /Freemasons will play a huge roll in the 4th Beast Kingdom,since they are the ones who have been writing and promoting this New World Order nonsense for 100's of years and the founding fathers of America ( 1777) were 33degree Freemasons and they put their Egyptian witchcraft symbolism on the American dollar bill---H.G.Wells,who was Illuminati Freemason, wrote in the 1800's that many will die protesting the New World Order---and the 'Brave New World" and "1984 authors were Freemasons and it is the Illuminati who publish continually that they want to destroy Christianity and bring in the "pure doctrine of Lucifer" ---we can't rule out the Illuminati "Rothschilds" who control all world banks and media---"Bauer" changed his name to Rothschild, to worship and be controlled by the fallen angel "Ashteroth",which is the first abomination that Solomon started to worship when he fell into withcraft----it is the Illuminati that have errected all the Egyptian witchcraft symbols in America, from the Statue of Liberty to White House Obelisks and the many satanic designs of buildings---ie Denver Airport for one of many!---Illuminati are chronic satanic numerologists ie 911 and the #13 is their big baby, and in Scripture the number "13" is symbolic of depravity and rebellion---one can see the flavour of "13" in Scripture in Gen13:13"men of Sodom" and Gen.14 says on 13th year the giants rebelled,Haman decreed Jews be killed on 13th day of the month,and Deut13:13 "men of Belial" and Isaiah13"Babylon destroyed" and Rev.13 "Beast and His Mark" and many more.--Judas was the 13th!---i believe that they have planned 2013 to be beginning of their "New World Order" and 2013 is a powerfull conjunction for evil seeing how 2013 is the last 13 before Messiah returns and it also adds up to "6" and 13 is the 6th prime number---i believe they(Illuminti) are using the Mayan Calendar Dec.21/2012 end of the world hoax, to deceive humanity with something big like a possible phony alien invasion etc.---have you studied NASA's "Bluebeam Project" where they plan to do a phoney second coming of Messiah coming in the sky, by using holography and turning the sky into a giant T.V. screen---are you aware of the weapon of mass destruction in S.E.Alaska called H.A.A.R.P.,which is Nikola Tesla science, and is being used to trigger earthquakes(man that did shake(earthquake) kingdoms-Isa.14) and tornadoes,hurricanes,volcanoes etc. and is used for mind control of humanity and is also used to steer and bend the jetstream into artificial positions and the jetstream position controls all weather---there is no global warming and geo-engineering our weather by scientists with an evil their heart of unbelief is the worst crime against humanity ever in history and they use the global warming lie to cover their evil-- where you live ,you can walk outside anytime and within a few minutes,if you observe the sky,you will see the remotely controled planes spraying and laying out the chemtrails that consist of nano particulate of heavy metals such as barium,titanium,aluminum,polymers, and fungicides etc(only place not being sprayed is China)----H.A.A.R.P. weapon wont work unless the U.S Military saturates the sky with nano metal particles to create a good conductor for electromagnetic waves to be sent around the world to trigger earthquakes,volcanoes, etc.and they use the global warming lies to cover their evil---The Arctic is being melted on purpose(by steering jetstream) to extract oil and gas deposits,which are 25% of world's gas and oil deposits---the U.S Military says they will"own the weather as a force multiplier by 2025 and we are the labrats!"--one thing for sure ,the A.C will have to be in control of H.A.A.R.P. like weapons that are placed all around the world (28 already set up in different countries)to be able to be in a position that no one can war against him!---H.A.A.R.P. can create artificial lightning and can also create an electromagnetic explosion similar to a nuclear bomb anywhere in the world.------Nikola Tesla said in 1905 that he good split the earth in two with electromagnetic waves and now we can with H.A.A.R.P. weapon!----"the man that did shake kingdoms,that laid nations and cities waste" and one more example of how Illuminati are hopeless psycopathic numerologists----all of these worst geo-engineering crimes against humanity ever in history, all commenced in a big determined effort in 1998 ,which is 3x666=1998!----they took there cue from Edward Teller of Laurence Livermore Institute,who said the planet needs a sunscreen and who was the sociopath and psycopath who helped design the hydrogen bomb and wanted to hydrogen bomb the moon!---anyway,i'm wondering if you are aware of these worst crimes against humanity ever in history---are you aware that Baal Gates with his evil heart of unbelief is paying for artificial clouds project and depopulating and sterilizing humans through vaccines?---i be interested in hearing from you about your understanding of all of above. also-----if Gog is A.C .,that means A.C is in a coalition with Islamic forces,because Gog comes with Iran(Persia),Ethiopia (Sudan), and Libya which are Islamic nations---how do deal with this scenario?.---for me it means that at least some of the seven remainings kings must be Islamic because they are accompanying A.C. in his campaign against Israel--cheers
Response #18:
On Gog, this is the final event of the Great Tribulation, the Armageddon campaign. Remember, antichrist takes up residence in Jerusalem three and a half years before at the commencement of the Tribulation's second half, after the two campaigns against the south are concluded. So Jerusalem has at this point been the center of the beast's world empire for over three years now, and you can be sure that in his zeal to fabricate all of the Messianic prophecies he will have taken great pains to "make the place of his feet glorious" (Is.60:13). For the bulk of the 42 months, the wealth of the nations has been streaming into Israel including all of the plunder of Egypt which was particularly hard hit and thoroughly sacked at the conclusion of the second campaign against the south (Dan.11:40b-43; Ezek.30:2-5). Loyalists, especially those of high rank, will be required to come and do obeisance before the abominable statue in the temple court, and of course the most "notorious" Christians will also be brought to Jerusalem and publicly executed to much fanfare. All this will mean that Jerusalem will quickly become the most celebrated, visited, and wealthiest place on earth, and this prosperity will unquestionably "rub off" on Israel as a whole (even if it is very unequally distributed in favor of those who take the mark). Since the two campaigns of the first half of the Tribulation were launched specifically to destroy Israel, being free from any sort of armed attack now for over three years by this time – and having just recently been freed of antichrist's rule as well, the Armageddon campaign and the return of the beast from the darkness into which he had disappeared will be quite a shock, and the description of Israel as living "safely and at rest" at this juncture fits in every way.
As to the bowl judgments, the first one affects only those who have taken the mark (and in my view there will be more people per capita in Israel who have not taken the mark than anywhere on earth, for we know that many Jews will actually enter the land after Messiah's return – but not those with the mark). The second judgment affects the sea, and while Israel has a coastland she never was in the past and really is not much today a maritime power (nor does she possess a large fishing industry). The third bowl judgment is also a worldwide judgment, but apart from causing discomfort is not said to result in loss of life. It is also possible – and I believe probable – that Israel is spared this judgment because in very short order she will be a magnet for believers in Babylon who have so far survived as the one haven for which to aim when commanded to "flee Babylon". The fourth judgment likewise is personal (upon those with the mark) and also will not affect property. The fifth judgment affects only Revived Rome (and is the impetus for antichrist's temporary removal from Jerusalem and removal into the darkness of the north). The sixth judgment is part and parcel of the Gog invasion as the beast assembles all of the world's armies against Jerusalem. This is the point at which the description found in Ezekiel 38-39 applies. So I believe it is very easy to understand a situation wherein Israel has not been so damaged by the bowl judgments to this point so as to make the description in Ezekiel incongruous.
As to Japheth, the Mediterranean sea peoples and the proto-Greeks very clearly come from Japheth (i.e., the sons of Javan, the Ionian). Tarshish is in the western Med. (cf. Jonah 1:3); Kittim is Crete, probably, but definitely in the Med. (Num.24:24; Jer.2:10), and the Rodanim seem to be based on Rhodes. And after all, Genesis 10:5 says about these peoples "From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language" (NIV), and that has to mean the Mediterranean. As to the other sons of Japheth, Madai is very clearly the Medes (cf. 2Kng.17:6; 18:11; Is.13:17; 21:2; Jer.25:25; 51:11; 51:28; Est.1:3; 1:14; 1:18-19; 10:2; Dan.8:20; 9:1; 11:1). I have previously explained how the biblical indications point to Magog being western (not eastern) – Josephus identified them with the Scythians. Meschech and Tubhal are northern European nations in secular ancient literature (e.g., in Herodotus Hist. 3.94; 7:78 as well as in Assyrian records). Togarmah is mentioned in Ezekiel 27:14 as trading with Tyre (overland, by the nature of the trade – so they could not be too far away; Josephus thinks of them as the Phrygians of Asia minor). One could go on and into much more detail. All of the commentaries I have consulted and all of the scholars I respect make Japheth and his sons European-Mediterranean-Trans-Caucasian – based upon what may be gleaned from biblical testimony and ancient records. I have never seen anyone try to link Japheth with Asian peoples before.
As to the Illuminati et al., I have no doubt that the beast will make use of any and all of Satan's many minions and secular organizations. Those with truly nefarious origins are an easy bet. What concerns me as a Bible teacher is that Christians who are caught up in focusing upon such conspiracies will miss the bigger picture: antichrist will likely be a very prominent religious figure who then develops a mass political movement, and will no doubt style himself as an opponent of all these sorts of things you mention (even as he is being aided by them and all things satanic behind the scenes). After all, antichrist will claim to be Christ. The danger for disinterested, uninformed, immature Christians will be that they may be easily sucked in by the patina of righteousness that the beast will exude, and will not know enough about scripture to be able to identify him as the phony he really will be. If we as followers of Jesus Christ truly do love Him with all of our hearts, then we will have no need of politics at all and can be confident that no such careful investigation of the political scene is necessary. By knowing the truth, all lies will be very evident, especially the biggest one of all: the beast's arrogation of the title of Messiah to himself.
Finally, putting aside your characterization of Gog (which I would dispute), the catalog of nations in Ezekiel 38-39 is meant to show only that the beast's Armageddon army will be all-inclusive and world-wide in its composition. This is explained in CT 5 at the link: "The Beast's Armageddon Campaign".
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior in whom alone we have life eternal.
Bob L.
Question #19:
Hi Robert,
Thanks for reply----there are many Holy Bible students from the past and present who believe that Japheth is the father of mainly the oriental race ----Herbert Armstrong in "Mystery of the Ages" believes so and the present day "Twelvetribes Communities",50 communities in 9 countries believe Shem --white; Ham--Black and Japheth--Oriental----thats what i believe ---"blessed be Shem" and no one can deny that the white man has the most blessings on the planet today----God will enlarge Japheth and the oriental peoples have the largest population by far!---if you search the internet,you will find that many reputable people ,past and present, believe that Japheth is father of oriental race!--i believe it so firmly that i would put my life on it,just as i would put my life on the fact that YHWH raised Messiah Yahshua from the dead!.
-----i still find it extremely difficult to imagine how the A.C. is going to be able to convince the world that he is the gentle and meek and loving,forgiving ,unmaterialistic Yahshua, when he is going to be the complete antithesis of Yahshua Messiah when in His first advent here on earth---.AC. is going to be slaughtering,torturing,dividing the land for gain,honouring the god of military force,and honoring a god which his fathers knew not with gold ,and silver, and with precious stones and pleasant things and also setting up an idol in complete rebellion against the second commandment of 'thou shalt make no graven image"---this shows that A.C.'s character is the total antithesis of Messiah's gentle,loving,forgiving,generous nature and who was always acknowledging and giving glory to our Father in Heaven, which the coming A.C. will not do----Messiah Yahshua says the deception will be so great that if possible,even the elect could be deceived,so there must be alot more to the equation that what we are seeing now.----for me ,someone who is killing ,torturing,accummulating wealth,practising witchcraft,setting up idols and also having a fierce countenance,could never convince me in a billion trillion years that he is Messiah Yahshua,the Son of God!----how could even the most braindead Christian ever believe that a greedy,torturing,cold blooded murderer and idolator such as A.C. could be Jesus Christ, but then again,how can one billion Catholics believe that the Pope is holy!
-----i believe the A.C will be more like a Nebuchadnezzar type or like a Belshazzar type who drank wine and praised the gods of gold and silver,of brass,of wood and of iron and stone----Scripture says A.C. wont honour the God of his fathers, nor regard any god,because he will magnify himself above all---how could Christianity buy into thinking this .AC.,with his outrageous actions, could possibly be the gentle ,loving, peaceful Jesus Christ of 2ooo years ago?----if you have time ,i'd like to hear from you on how you think A.C. will have Christianity thinking he is the second advent Messiah---i believe the word Anti-christ means that A.C will not be a religious type in anyway--he will be a total political military type,only honouring wealth and force!---as you know,apostasy means "a total desertion from one's faith,professions,principles,or party,especially from one's religion"---so those many Christians who are going to fall away are obviously not going to believe that A.C is Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible,because they have fallen away from the faith in Messiah and in the Word of God!
I would like to remind you also that all earlier antichrist types,ie Nimrod,Pharoah,King of Assyria,Nebuchadnezzar,Antiochus Epiphanes,Nero and other Ceasars,Hitler,Stalin,Mao Tse , etc. were all atheists,without any Christlike traits whatsoever and one would assume that the future A.C shall be (a probably sodomite atheist )also ,so i don't see how you can say that A.C. will "counterfeit the Son of God" because not one description of him sounds like Messiah's character-----i think that Christians who take the mark of the Beast will do so only out of fear of death and not because they believe in any way that this Beast is Jesus Christ--they would have to be beyond braindead to do so and not be aware of even one verse of Scripture,and especially after the world wide warnings of the Two Witnesses and 144,000 for 31/2 years,so i can't see how the A.C would ever be able to convince anyone that he is the Son of God---on the contrary, i think people will be worshipping him out of fear of death or because he gives them power and wealth and supernatural experiences, and that alone---he'll be an evolutionist and deny creation and be a lover of pleasure more than a lover of God and will condone same-sex marriage and every type of perversion(pedophilia,beastiality etc.) and no doubt he'll praise scientific achievements and the works of mans hands and he'll use hi- technology like H.A.A.R.P. etc. to destroy miracously and deceive with great holographic images in the sky,etc.
-----i'm wondering what the A.C is going to tell his worshippers about death or eternal life or will he have convinced those who take the "Mark" that by taking it , they now have eternal life and will never die,and is the taking of the "Mark" possibly going to be a supernatural experience in and of itself ,whereby the recipient will experience and perceive the universe in the same way Satan perceives it with his 6 billion I.Q.----is the taking of the Mark going to give them a supernatural "high" and keep them on a "high" like no drug could or ever has come close to doing?--afterall,Satan was offering Messiah all of his power and glory of his kingdoms,if only he would worship him,so it is quite conceivable that he'll be offering it all again,in many different forms, to anyone who takes his Mark.---or maybe the Beast doesn't offer or believe in eternal life at all and that will be just fine and dandy for the masses that will serve him,just as long as they get to practice their perversions uninhibited----that's the way many peole are now----they would rather that there is no God at all---i meet them all the time--they are extremely disappointed and sad when you tell them that evolution is a hoax and that YHWH has a wonderfull plan for humanity----it's totally bizarre!---they love the" no hope ,no joy"package from the evolution lie that puts their children on antipsycotic and antidepressant drugs at six years old!---- one can be very sure that most if not all, sodomites and lesbians will take the Mark---they hate God and love evolution!--and there will probably be many more of them in A.C 's time.
-----i don't see how you can say that Rev.6:2-8 is the A.C imitating the Millenium---maybe 6:2 ,but not the rest, which describe war,famine,pestilence and more war----these scenarios could not be considered to be Millenium like in any manner.
---i'm wondering if you believe ,as do many Jews, that Messiah will return in a jubilee year?---do you believe that in LuKE 4:18,19 , Messiah is describing a jubilee year?----i believe that the Children of Israel crossed the river Jordan in 1422B.C., 40 years after they crossed the Red Sea in 1462B.C ---that would make 1st celebtrated jubilee after crossing Jordan to be 1372B.C---counting from there that means 22B.C was a jubilee year and 28A.D when Messiah was annointed to preach ,in Luke 4:18,was a jubilee year--
in my reckoning, that makes 2028A.D and 2078 jubilee years ---what do you think about this?----i was for a time, believing that around 2078 would be Messiah's return, but now with things heating up so much in Syria and Iran etc.,i'm leaning more to 2028 or thereabout---i believe we will see the Isaiah 17:1 nuclear destruction of Damascus soon---i look forward to hearing from you-----cheers
Response #19:
You're very welcome. I have no doubt that there are all manner of folks out there who believe all manner of things. I put my faith in the Lord and in His Word and in what I can personally find in it. I stand by the previous comments. I don't see the identifications espoused here by you to flow necessarily from scripture (though in many points they do conflict with it; see the previous email), so I will demur regardless of the intensity of your belief. If the whole world believed something I didn't find in scripture, I wouldn't for that reason change my mind.
All I can say is that antichrist will be the greatest deceiver who has ever lived (spawned by the Deceiver himself). Further, all of the things that you mention which are completely contradictory to everything Jesus every said or did or was are going to happen not only after the beast has already assumed power in Babylon and come to rule revived Rome but also after he has effectively conquered the whole world. At that point, with all power in his hands, it will matter little whether or not people follow him because of being deceived or because they admire his conquests ("Who is like the beast!", they will shout) or because they are politically involved. And as you intimate, given the gullibility level of current US citizens (even, sad to say, of many lukewarm brothers and sisters) at the hands of all kinds of groups and individuals of far less deceptive power than the beast, it would be a bad idea to bet against the Great Apostasy.
There is still much we cannot yet say about these matters (what I have been able to glean from scripture is written up in BB 3B: Antichrist and his Kingdom), and what will go on in the minds of those deceived or persuaded or even just politically attracted is only for God to say. What we can say is that the beast will come to control Babylon and revived Rome in very short order once the Tribulation begins, and that prodigious accomplishment of evil would never have been able to take place without the removal of the Holy Spirit's restraining ministry (please see the link). So even though I am sure you are correct about the horrific nature of the person he will be revealed to be by the middle of the Tribulation, that does not mean he will not appear to be benign and attractive in the early going. Many people with no such powers and no such agenda turn out to be quite different than we imagine when we meet them initially.
Finally, I'm not much into the whole Jubilee calculation approach (I have responded to a few questions using those calculations: e.g., #5 in "Eschatology in the OT", and "More Questions on Genesis"). For one thing, just exactly where one should start the calculation is still problematic. For another, since the date of the crucifixion is fairly certain, it is a simple process to add two thousand years to 33 A.D. and end up with 2033 as the timing of the Second Advent. Two things you might want to take into account if you have not already done so are 1) the fact that there is no "year zero", so that between e.g., 2 B.C. and 2 A.D. there are only three years, not four. Also, Greeks and Hebrews often counted inclusively, and that can set a calculation off by a year as well.
Yours in Jesus Christ the God-Man through faith in whom alone we have eternal life,
Bob L.