Question #1:
Greetings...
I co tonight to run into pretrib believers that are convicted in their
beliefs and one recently posed a few interesting points that I am
finding difficult to disprove.
1) The harpazo occurs when Jesus comes down from heaven (1Th 4:16), the
resurrections occur when Jesus is already on earth (Zec 14:4-5, Matt
24:29-30).
2) The harpazo is accompanied by Jesus Himself (1Th 4:16), the
resurrections are accompanied by Angels (Matt 24:31).
3) The Tribulation saints of Rev 20:5 are part of the first
resurrection. Do you consider the resurrection of the OT saints (Dan
12:1-2) as the part of the first resurrection, or a second resurrection?
4) The purpose of the harpazo is to bring the church to be with the Lord
forever (1Th 4:17), the purpose of the resurrections is to raise the
righteous dead to be in the Millennial Kingdom (Matt 25:34).
5) The harpazo results in the church going to be where Jesus is now
(John 14:2-3), the resurrections result in the saints going to the
Millennial Kingdom (Matt 25:34).
How do you reconcile all these passages if you think the resurrections
and the harpazo are the same event?
Response #1:
Dear anonymous friend,
Let me start by saying that the "rapture" (which you are calling "the harpazo")
is a very dangerous false doctrine because it tells believers they don't have to
prepare for the Tribulation right when we are on the threshold of it and in the
waning days of the era of Laodicea when Christians are the least prepared for
trouble than has been the case at any time in the Church Age. It is a "feel
good" false doctrine: it "feels good" to think that one can continue to do what
one wants in this life, eschewing the hard work of spiritual growth, and not
suffer any consequences because (ostensibly) even if the Tribulation arrives,
well, "we'll be 'raptured' ". That is not the case. Everywhere in scripture
where future events are in view our Lord's return, His parousia, is said
to happen at the END of the Tribulation, not the beginning, and NO passage
suggests TWO returns. In fact, there is not one single passage in the Bible
which definitively teaches a "pre-Trib rapture": nary a verse would be taken to
mean that "this is Christ returning BEFORE the Tribulation" if that were not a
presupposition unjustifiably plugged in by proponents contrary to what the
scriptures actually say. As to your points:
1) I've never hear this false doctrine called "the harpazo" before. It is true
that in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 we do find that verb (i.e., the fut./psv.
harpagesometha) used to describe the resurrection of believers alive as the
second advent at Christ's return, His parousia in v.15; see the link: "Parousia
means 2nd Advent"). When you say, "the resurrections occur when Jesus is
already on earth" that is patently untrue. Zechariah 14:4-5 does not describe
the resurrection at all. It does describe the flight of Jews from Jerusalem –
unbelievers who were NOT resurrected at our Lord's return because they were in
fact not believers; they repent when they see Him return (see
the link); they are rescued and, in company with other Jews still
alive, form the nucleus of the millennial Jewish nation. Matthew 24:29-30 does
describe the resurrection, but note that the Messiah does not "touch down" on
the Mt. of Olives yet. So this passage is completely consistent with the other
one and does not, in fact, give any sort of credence to a claim that there is "a
difference" between the actual resurrection and this pseudo one which rapture
proponents teach.
2) Our Lord is present in 1st Thes.4 and in Matt.24; Angels are present in both
passages as well. So there is no contradiction. Christ is the One who sends the
angels out in Matt.24:31 "with a great sound of a trumpet"; He descends with the
voice of the archangel to herald the resurrection in 1Thes.4:16 "with the
trumpet of God".
3) The first half of Revelation 20:5 which occurs in the KJV (and many other
versions) is not part of scripture but a later interpolation (see the link).
There are three phases to the first resurrection as Paul tells us in 1st
Corinthians chapter 15, verses 23-24: 1] Christ; 2] the Church; 3] the Friends
of the Bride (i.e., millennial believers). Our Lord, of course, has already been
resurrected (phase one). The entire Church from Adam and Eve to the last person
saved during the Tribulation before Christ appears in the sky prior to
Armageddon constitute the Church (phase two); all saved during the Millennium
are resurrected at its end (phase three). The resurrection of the dead also
follows at that time with the end of the seven thousand years of human history
(Rev.20:11-15).
4) The "sheep and goats" judgment is the judgment of the millennial believers
(the sheep) and the judgment of all unbelievers since Cain (the goats, i.e.,
"the Great White Throne" of Rev.20:11-15); this happens at the end of history
(not at the second advent) and the kingdom referred to in Matthew 25:34 is the
eternal kingdom, not the millennial kingdom (see
the link).
5) John 14:2-3 is a comfort for believers now and has been since the time of our
Lord's ascension. Prior to the cross, believers went to the paradise below the
earth (e.g., Lk.23:43); afterwards we are taken to the third heaven to be with
the Lord in an interim time and in an interim state (see the link). So that
passage is not speaking of the resurrection at all. And, as mentioned, Matthew
25:34 is also not speaking of the resurrection of the Church.
These questions you are receiving demonstrate all you need to know. Rapture
proponents understand absolutely nothing about what the Bible teaches about the
end times (eschatology). They have instead substituted one pet theory (a wrong
one) which they allow to lead them astray on all other aspects of what the Bible
teaches on this very important subject. They twist scripture to support their
theory and as a result lose the truth not only of the true time and nature of
the resurrection but about all other related matters. But if they were reading
their Bibles and letting the Spirit speak to them through the scripture, they
would never have come up with this false idea in the first place. Indeed, they
have been taught it by others (false teaching begets false teaching).
My advice to them is to find some GOOD Bible teaching (hard as that is in these
Laodicean days), and, once found, stick with it and grow spiritually so as to
earn a "well done!" from our Lord when He does return. Here are some links which
will flesh out the details of this discussion:
The 'Rapture' and other Eschatological Issues
Eschatology Issues XXIV: the 'Rapture' et al.
The pre-Trib 'Rapture': so called 'imminence' and other false proofs refuted
Dangers of the Pre-Trib Rapture False Teaching
The Origin and the Danger of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture Theory
Three False Doctrines that Threaten Faith
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #2:
Good Afternoon,
I'm not doing that well now, but thanks for asking.
I was reading the story of the seven churches with the current one
ending in 2026.
What exactly does this mean?
I was curious.
Response #2:
I'm very sorry to hear this. I have been praying for you and will
continue to do so.
As to your question, the Church era of Laodicea is the last era of the
Church Age. It ends in 2026 because that is when the Church Age "ends"
in terms of its exclusivity. The Tribulation is a joint period of time
wherein the last seven years of the Jewish Age, the seventh week of
Daniel 9:24-27, and the Church Age overlap, so Laodicea's ending is
coterminous with the Tribulation's commencement (see
the link).
As to this projection/interpretation of the date, there is a lot about
that on the website. Here's one link which will give you the basics:
Probable date of the Tribulation
In a nutshell, the plan of God for human history encompasses seven
thousand years, seven millennial days, so to speak, which correspond to
the seven days of re-creating the earth in Genesis chapters one and two.
Based upon the chronological details given in scripture, it is possible
to establish that the Gentile Age comprised two thousand years and the
Jewish Age likewise two thousand years (minus seven years: Daniel's 70th
week, Dan.9:27). The Millennium is by definition one thousand years long
(corresponding to the seventh day Sabbath of Genesis chapter two). That
leaves our present age, the Church Age, with an allotment of two
thousand years. The Church Age began (shortly after our Lord's
ascension) on the day of Pentecost. Those events, as best we can tell,
took place in 33 A.D. That would mean that the second advent will occur
in 2033. This being the case, the Tribulation start date would be 2026,
and that explains why the era of Laodicea will end at that time. As I
say, there's much more about this on the site (the link above will point
to others).
Hope things go better for you soon, my friend.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #3:
Oh, I see now....
There is a timeline below corresponding to what you just mentioned here.
So, the seven days of human history are like seven dispensations of
human history?
I also found this picture here.
I think you're right!
Wow, come Lord Jesus!
Response #3:
On dispensations, what you are referring to is the Scofield theory which has many things wrong with it. A dispensation biblically is defined by the manner in which God "dispenses" His truth, and is only tangentially related to covenants (which are also greatly misunderstood in the Scofield theory). For more on this see the links:
On the timeline/chart, I note a couple of things. First, they have the
crucifixion/resurrection/Pentecost as happening in 29 A.D. If that were
the case, the Tribulation should have started two years ago (it clearly
did not). Also, this is Baptist graph . . . which means that they expect
the "rapture" to relieve them of even going through the Tribulation (so
I would be very wary of anything they have to say).
Best place to get the first "once over" on all these issues at Ichthys
is Bible Basics 2B: Eschatology (link).
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #4:
I believe in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture myself.
As for the other things, Pentecost was 33 A.D.
Two days of the Church Age, which began at Pentecost would take us to 2033.
This is the Second Coming of Christ. He sets up his millennial reign.
But,
First, the rapture and great tribulation takes place. The tribulation is the
last seven years of Jewish history.
I believe it begins as you correctly stated 2026.
We know not the day or the hour, though.
Response #4:
Re: "I believe in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture myself." That is certainly your
right, however, there is no biblical basis for this false theory whatsoever.
It's also dangerous, because it promotes complacency about the Tribulation
rather than the spirit of diligent preparation believers should have as the hour
draws nearer.
Yes, we "don't know the day or the hour" exactly, but Jesus said those words in
Matthew 24 in the context of being alert, giving the example of the fig tree
wherein we can have a very good idea that summer is close by observing it. So
using that quote to suggest "no worries!" rather than, "be alert!" is a
completely upside-down application. Given what we know from scripture (as you
affirm here) and what we can see in the world all around us, it would be
foolhardy to imagine that the Tribulation can't occur any time soon. So that
leaves us with two options: prepare or don't prepare. Why would the Bible tell
us so much about the Tribulation and the dangers of it if absolutely not a
single believer would ever really have to concern him/herself about that because
we're going to be "raptured" out of harm's way before it even starts?
"Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
Matthew 24:22-24 NKJV
As to the fact that this all applies to the second advent of our Lord after the Tribulation, our Lord makes crystal clear in this same chapter:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV
While the above makes unmistakably clear that the resurrection occurs after the
Tribulation, all the so called "proofs" of a pre-Tribulation resurrection are
based upon imaginative, specious deductive reasoning, because no verse or
passage affirmatively teaches it.
Here are some links which go into this important subject in much greater detail:
The 'Rapture' and other Eschatological Issues
Eschatology Issues XXIV: the 'Rapture' et al.
The pre-Trib 'Rapture': so called 'imminence' and other false proofs refuted
Dangers of the Pre-Trib Rapture False Teaching
The Origin and the Danger of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture Theory
Three False Doctrines that Threaten Faith
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #5:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
I just finished writing the little teaching, and would like your opinion of what
is written. I discovered this two nights ago, when I was getting ready before
going to sleep. The text that I read caught my eye immediately when I saw it,
that is Matt. 24:9-10. Here is the document:
Every “Word” of Scripture is extremely important. The following is one example:
See Matthew 24:3-8
“ 3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him
privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the
sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Comments:
1. The sign of Your Coming:
See Matthew 24:29-30.
29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED,
AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and
the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man
will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and
they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and
great glory.
2. The "end of the age":
The end of human history, and is equal with the end of the 1,000 year Millennial
reign of Jesus Christ on this earth.
4And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5“For
many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
6“You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not
frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7“For
nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various
places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8“But all these things are merely
the beginning of birth pangs.
3. Birth pangs[pain]. Used in the Scripture as a metaphor for, the signs that
the end times, or apocalypse, is coming.
See Matthew 24: 9-10.
9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be
hated by all nations because of My name. 10“At that time many will fall away and
will betray one another and hate one another.
Comments:
Notice that the first word in Matthew 24 verse 9 is “Then”. This word “then” is
very important, for it is given as an indication of when the tribulation will
actually begin. So the beginning of the “tribulation” will take place upon the
conclusion of what Jesus says in the following verses:
Matthew 24:5-7.
“5“For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead
many. 6“You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not
frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7“For
nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various
places there will be famines and earthquakes.
4. Now, we come to these verses that blow away the event that many call the
Pre-Tribulation rapture, which is totally and completely a false doctrine.
The following references will provide the proof of the above statement:
See Matthew 24:9-10.
“ 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will
be hated by all nations because of My name. 10“At that time many will fall away
and will betray one another and hate one another”.
The key words to these verses are the following:
1. Then,
What comes after this word will shock the average believer;
a. They will deliver you to tribulation,
b. and will kill you,
c. and you will be hated by all nation because of My name.
2. At that time,
a. The time specified is when we are delivered to tribulation.
b. Because of the fact that many believers will fall away from their faith in
Jesus Christ.
c. Those who fall away from their faith in Jesus, will betray one another, and
hate one another.
Conclusion.
The proof is in every Word of the Scripture, and must be taken into
consideration.
The consequences of not following this truth will cause, in this case, lack of
knowledge of what scriptures says, and ignorance of God’s precious Word.
Would surely appreciate your thoughts and corrections or additions.
Blessings be with you always,
Your Friend,
Response #5:
This is all absolutely the case, my friend, and there are lots of other clear proofs in Matthew chapter 24 of the fallacy of any sort of "rapture" of believers before the return of our Lord at the end of the Tribulation. Here's another one, right after where you ended your quote:
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:31 NKJV
This is just AFTER He returns in v.30. There's your "rapture",
after Christ returns at the second advent, "Immediately after the tribulation of
those days" (Matt.24:29 NKJV).
Keep up the good work for Jesus Christ!
In Him,
Bob L.
Question #6:
I would have never known what I do now, if it were not for the Holy Spirit, and
your teachings. I thank our Blessed LORD for helping me, and letting me find
your Website. You are one anointed person my friend, and I appreciate you more
than I could ever speak.
I thank the Dear LORD again for what He has done in my life, but it is not over
yet.
Blessings to you, my friend,
Response #6:
Thanks as always for your encouraging words, my friend!
And thanks much for your continuing friendship.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #7:
Doc I want your opinion on this, it isn't an important spiritual matter or anything but I need to know how to biblically address this. The community of my favorite game series is going through almost a civil war right now. The creators of the game are starting to lock certain weapons behind paid DLC (downloadable content), and almost everyone in the community is berating those who buy it and kicking them from any server they join, because they're worried if enough people buy it, Capcom (the creators) will start making more stuff paid DLC, like armors and potentially even monsters you can hunt. I heard someone online say condemning those who buy it is the only right thing to do...I don't know what side to be on, it's impossible to play at this point and not be part of the conflict. What do you think I should do Doc?
Response #7:
That's pretty funny – if also pretty pointless in my humble opinion. I've heard
that people are paying big bucks for "real estate" in the "metaverse" and for
virtual clothes and such there as well. As P.T. Barnum famously said, "There's a
sucker born every minute".
In a way, however, everything we do down here in the "real world" is just as
pointless in the end, everything, that is, that is not directly related to
pleasing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Philippians 1:21
Better to receive a "well done!" from Him on that great day to come than to
temporarily rule the metaverse now . . . or even the real universe.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #8:
Thank you Bob, I know you have done much battle in prayer over this with me and
I very much appreciate it!
I know my priorities are with the Lord and the brethren and that I have been
waylaid for too long a time on family and friends (unbelievers). Believe me I
was ready to move on to my ministry and I think that the enemy knew this and
that I had realised I was labouring over rocky ground for a very long time. He
probably noticed I was packing up to set up my tent for the brethren in
ministry, so he has felled some trees that now lay directly across my path
towards where I wanted to set up camp. He knows I won't just blast through these
trees or just climb over them.
I don't want to get bent out of shape over it but half of my problems are the
fact that these days most people adamantly refuse to look after their own
responsibilities in life. They won't carry their own load. They are not doing
what they should be doing. What this looks like is parents not looking after
their children, adult children not looking after elderly parents, husbands not
looking after their wives and no one looking out for their friends and
neighbours. Of late, I have noticed many people circling their wagons to look
inwards so that they are only looking at what is directly in front of them but
ironically failing big time to do the few things they have chosen to do.
The current selfishness of people is to an astounding degree. I have even seen
grown men take off on motorbikes and camping trips rather than look after their
wives and children. Yes and like you already said, they all have 'good excuses'
for their rebellious and self-absorbed behaviour. "You do you and I'll do me". I
have actually been told that 'as a Christian' I should be picking up the slack
for others who are too lazy as I am a Christian and they are not.
I always get sore over unfairness and the devil knows this but nothing will ever
be fair here as long as sin and the devil hold court. Not much time left though
now is there..thank the Lord!
I will persevere to only see the past as the cross, the future as New Jerusalem
and other than that, taking it patiently here one day at a time for that is what
I have presently, today in a temporary world full of trials. It's all about
glorifying the Lord in the end isn't it. Amen!
In Jesus,
Response #8:
I appreciate your prayers for me as well, my friend!
There's no question but that life is complicated, and complications can drain
time and energy. Many "fronts" on which we must simultaneously fight, but we
know which one is the most critical. It's important to always be carving out
time and energy for the Lord no matter what. In that regard, the distance
covered by sprinting and stopping, sprinting and stopping is often exceeded by
slow daily plugging away. We get better at this as time goes by, as long as we
stay committed to fighting the fight. And there are always going to be crisis
times when even minimal plugging is a challenge. If we rise to it, and if we
keep our hand in, no matter what, that is a victory which we should feel good
about (rather than feeling bad if we didn't do everything we proposed to do as
quickly as we had hoped to do it).
You have a LOT on your plate.
"I will persevere . . . " – Amen! I know you will, my friend. And you
have a right to "feel good" about that. I certainly do for you!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #9:
That's okay Bob, I am rallying again! Like you said I have aggressively grabbed
hold of my faith and comfort and HOPE in the return of the Lord.
I am ashamed to saying that yesterday even in prayer I was complaining about my
lot to the Lord but because I was listening to the book of Exodus and your
series on Exodus I suddenly realised that I do NOT want to be like that Exodus
generation who moaned about the manna that the Lord graciously provided them in
the wilderness. The Lord is MY manna in the wilderness and He is more than
enough to see me through, He is my portion and my overflowing cup!
This morning I did something unexpected... I looked at the signs of the times
and I became excited and joyful that out Lord is at the door! He is almost here!
I then thought of spending eternity with Jesus Christ and then everything that
got me down just melted away! I then did something that I should have done
before rather than complain.. I called out praises to the Lord! I thought of
Leah and that she was so consumed with gaining the attention of Jacob but then
she conceived Judah (the tribe that our Lord is from) and instead of seeking
Jacob's favour she sought God instead and praised the Lord! (Genesis 29:35)
So when I felt the joy of the Lord's return and then when I praised the Lord
even though I am in tribulation, I felt myself be revived and strengthened and
all the comfort, joy and strength has come flooding back to me! Praise the Lord
for He is very good!
You were right Bob we need to aggressively take hold of this faith of ours and
it needs to be stronger than whatever we see around us that threatens to
overcome us. We must BELIEVE in HIM and His promises and His power and His love
for us. Nothing can stop the Lord and His plans! NOTHING!
We need to have that same irrepressible joy and spiritual strength that the
early church had in the book of Acts. They had just seen our Lord after the
resurrection and witnessed His ascension! WE will witness HIS RETURN!! Shouldn't
that joy break through all that threatens to tear us down? Satan and death no
longer has power over us anymore and his time is short and eternal future
already sealed. We are actually going to see Jesus' return!!! What a rare and
glorious honour to see the day of the Lord, when He will return for us His bride
in His glorified state!
We should be rejoicing that the day of the Lord draws near and have that same
irrepressible joy that the Apostles had in the book of Acts.
Nothing could keep them down! And nothing should keep us down either my friend!
Marana-tha! Hallelujah! Blessed are those who have not seen yet BELIEVE!
In Jesus,
p.s., My neighbour has responded to our prayers and the witness of the life and
it has encouraged her to open up and be more sociable!
Response #9:
That's wonderful news! I've updated the request per your instructions.
Good to see you rallying too, my friend, and setting your thoughts "on the
things above" as we all should be doing (Col.3:1-2). I'm keeping you in prayer
for health and all other things.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith. For now we really live, since you are standing firm in the Lord. How can we thank God enough for you in return for all the joy we have in the presence of our God because of you?
1st Thessalonians 3:7-9 NIV
In Jesus,
Bob L.
p.s. Answered prayers here as well!
Question #10:
When I look at this with eyes of faith, I know that God gives everyone ample and
perfectly arranged opportunities to be saved. Because our God is perfectly just
and perfectly loving and He knows all, I feel that there are people who are
suddenly being rushed into making a yes or no decision about salvation and where
they will be spending eternity. I feel this is because these same people would
not fare well in the events of the Tribulation.
I believe God knows who will be able to get through the Tribulation with faith
and who won't. I think that it may be that some people who act as though they
have forever to decide are being rushed into making a decision now because God
knows they won't react well towards Him in the Tribulation.
The way that I see it, if anyone has to pass on now and it pushes them to
Salvation, well God protected and delivered them from a test He knew they
couldn't get through, so that would be a huge blessing for them (as long as they
respond now with faith.)
The reason I am saying this is that I realise that we will all have to face
these situations more and more and it is imperative that meet these head on with
our faith. I wrote before that the death of a loved one has shipwrecked many
people's faith when they persistently blame God for the loss.
I believe that God knows best when to maintain life here and when to take it
away and He does this for all to give everyone the perfect and ample
opportunities for salvation! Amen!
In our Lord and Saviour,
p.s. I have noticed that a great number of people around me are getting a type
of rapid onset cancer or advanced terminal illnesses. I was also told today of
an acquaintance who lost his 43 year old son to cancer and he only had a 3 week
warning.
Response #10:
Re: "I feel this is because these same people would not fare well in the events of the Tribulation." That is an excellent point. I have opined before that there are probably many more death-bed conversions than we have any idea of, many of them not expressed to other people . . . because of lack of time or opportunity. I do think it is the case that some people just have to be confronted directly with the absoluteness of finality in order to commit themselves to the Lord. But that is why we are here, after all, and mortality is actually a great blessing. Otherwise, who would ever be motivated to be saved?
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:22-24 NKJV
And you are spot on: during the Tribulation there will be such pressures to
accept the devil's "solution" instead, that most people will go that route and
thus cut off their only avenue, their one Way of salvation, by taking the mark.
As you know, absolutely everything that happens in the plan of God is for a
reason. The closer to the Lord we draw, the better we get about seeing this.
Cancer is a horrible tragedy . . . unless it turns out for the salvation of
someone who otherwise would never have accepted Christ. Today I took the wrong
glasses out to jog and because of a tree service blocking my normal route found
myself on an unaccustomed sidewalk . . . and tripped face-first on a crack
obscured by leaves I didn't adequately discern until it was too late. No damage
done since I landed push-up fashion with gloves on (sub-freezing this morning).
Coming just after that to the major crossing before I get back home a "hot car"
came screaming out of the alleyway and did a fast "left turn on red without
stop" right in the intersection where otherwise I would probably have been. In
all things great and small, the Lord is looking out for us who belong to Him.
That will be true also during the Tribulation, no matter how bad things get.
Something we all need to keep firmly in mind.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #11:
Hi Bob,
You effectively answered my demon question in this weeks post. It seems the only
logical explanation for the insanity running loose in the world today.
On politics, I don't see a savior running in '24. I see politics as a three ring
kabukesque clown show with real guns. They clearly have dishonored their oaths
of office which proves them unworthy of trust. I think of them as Bolsheviks and
Mensheviks.
On social media: some love it and if they want to waste their time with it,
that's fine. I, on the other hand, have nothing to do with it. Facebook, e.g.,
is nothing more than a gussied up version of iirc which we had to use for those
middle-of-the night system upgrades. (And I don't want to revisit that even with
pictures.) All you're likely to get is opinion, some of which may be right and
much of it wrong or misleading impossible to know one from the other, Then, too,
I can't say I'm much interested in what someone may have had for dinner.
CBDC: Texas has established a precious metal depository (Just down the road from
me as a matter of fact.) I'm sure other states are or thinking of doing the
same. Note that paper money used to say "Silver Certificate" but now says
"Federal Reserve Note" marking a shift from their debt to ours. In my opinion,
salt is a safer investment.
Martyrdom: If what I read in the scan-by headlines is true, mortality is up some
150%. Much of that appears to be coming from the magic vaccines that's been
pushed by the medical cartel. (Another cult, in my opinion.) There are several
other possible or contributing reasons, but I think it's safe to assume the
trend will increase as we approach our final years.
Speaking of magic powders and potions, my question (which has little to do with
the post) is: Was the temple of Asclepius (did I spell that correctly?) staffed
with prostitutes? Do I understand correctly that Asclepius was a mere mortal
canonized to godhood? What difference was there from modern hospitals aside from
the fact that the "nurses" and priests may have performed their duties in
slightly different ways? This is just curiosity for me but you're the authority!
In our Lord Jesus,
Response #11:
Good observations, my friend. I'm no prophet, so all I can do, like anyone else,
is to speculate about what's soon to transpire. When you emotionally dis-invest,
it can actually be interesting. All these important people and pundits are
acting like they have some control over things. We know better.
Good question as to whether "unnatural causes" will rate the label of martyrdom.
The fourth seal makes it very clear that we haven't seen anything yet regarding
the mortality rate during the Tribulation (link).
I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.
Isaiah 13:11-12 NIV
As to Asclepius, while what you mention was a common feature of pagan religion generally (cf. Num.25:1-18), I'm not aware of anything particular connected with that god and his temple (not my area of expertise). There was/is a major temple of that god at Epidaurus and they have recovered many relics and inscriptions. The relics mainly consist of terracotta body parts which a sick person would dedicate in hopes of having that part "fixed". The inscriptions mainly relate people who would sleep in the temple precinct and then be confronted by the god who would heal them or tell them of some cure (etc.). So I suppose in some ways it was a precursor of the modern hospital. I would prefer the latter (even though I stay as far away from those as possible too if I can). Blessedly, we know that it is our God who heals us, whether or not He chooses to make use of modern means to do so.
“If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”
Exodus 15:26b NKJV
Keeping you in my prayers, my friend!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #12:
Hey Dr. Luginbill (yes, another email, lol!), I just wanted to let you in on a
quick update (forgive me if it seems like I'm venting). It's funny because
literally the day after you sent your last email response to me in our last chat
a pastor/missionary I grew up with in a church I used to attend years ago
messaged me on facebook and asked if I wanted to meet up with him and chat (the
guy is somewhere in his 40s or 50s). He said my website caught his attention and
that he didn't know I was into deep Bible study so much. So I obliged and we met
up yesterday at a Chick-fil-A and had probably a 40 minute chat more or less.
Some of it was personal catching up and giving updates about each other's lives
but much of it was also theological/biblical type discussion.
He did mention to me that he read my "about page" on my website and he seemed to
already realize I wasn't in a church and that I had problems with the church at
large. He tried to give me a few recommendations of churches and groups. His
younger brother is co-leading an adult/young adult Bible study not too far from
me and so I got in touch with him and said I may possibly pay a visit. At the
very least we are going to meet up somewhere just the two of us and catch up (I
know this young man already because we both grew up in the same church).
Anyway, regarding the discussion I had with this pastor missionary, he has a lot
of academic credentials in his favor and plants/leads churches all over the
world (Hong Kong before the riots, Egypt, , etc., etc.). He also trains other
pastor teachers. So I'll grant that, generally speaking, he probably knows much
more than I do (except on some major doctrines and teachings). He also adheres
to the perseverance of the saints and is a pre-tribber. With that being said, I
didn't expect to be taken seriously as someone worthy for him to ask questions.
He invited me to ask him questions but I don't think he saw me as someone he
could really learn from, no surprise. It is what it is I guess.
To tell you the truth, knowing he had some background context from my website
basically made our meeting feel as if it was rigged for him to try to tell me
that my approach to "church" and "ministry" were all backwards (or so that's how
it seemed to me). He didn't say it like that and was very polite and cordial
about it but basically what he was saying was that I needed to be in a physical
church and that a website (or any online fellowship) by itself was ok but not
good enough because trying to minister outside of physical assembly is to
"nibble around the edges" and isn't the biblical way to go about it because it
isn't really going to where the greatest needs are. He then mentioned that we
don't really know the potential of our spiritual gifts and ministries unless we
engage people in person.
Allow me to say that I did give my own reasons for not being in a physical
church (although I had mentioned to him that I was trying to engage other
believers in person) but of course he wasn't satisfied because he thinks I need
to attend Sunday morning services. I explained my spiritual goals, situation and
approach as best I could without hitting a nerve but of course he was suspicious
the whole time. The discussion went by well and we kept it very civil and polite
but there were definitely disagreements. I said what I felt led to say and I
thank the Lord He granted me the words to speak but also the discernment to keep
quiet at the right time(s). Of course, I stood by everything I said but when he
expressed his disagreements to me I didn't respond but kept quiet while gently
nodding my head that I understood what he was saying and where he was coming
from. But inwardly I was thinking, "Yeah, you don't understand and I disagree."
It was no time or place for me to argue and, seeing as how I knew him years ago,
I knew he wasn't the right person to argue with because his mind was clearly
made up as was mine so that there was no point in engaging. I just sat quietly
and listened. The things I wanted to say though Dr. Luginbill! Yes, I know he
was just thinking about my spiritual safety and was only trying to help but you
know how the proverb goes, "It is not good to have zeal without knowledge." This
pastor wanted to win me over thinking it would be the way of truth when that
actually wasn't the case. He wanted to win me over but not for true good even if
that is what he thought he was trying to do.
Honestly professor I'm starting to think the greatest challenge engaging
Laodicea isn't necessarily some doctrinal disagreement (although some of our
beliefs will definitely raise eyebrows) but the fact that we don't attend
physical churches (people see that as fishy and potentially cultic) because we
cite them as being lukewarm. This causes people to get defensive. The number one
response I always get is "That's true but not the church I attend or the groups
I lead!" Basically everyone is gonna say that about their church because
otherwise they themselves would have to accept and believe that their spiritual
approach is off and that the church they attend is lukewarm as well because it
lacks good solid Bible teaching. It just baffles me because I have heard so many
believers agree with me that the church (especially most of the congregations
here in America) are lukewarm but they always come to the defense of their own.
I would have to judge for myself to see what I think about them.
I told this pastor I talked with that your ministry was online only because he
asked me about that and that you didn't lead a physical church. His reaction? He
told me straight up that red flags went up in his head and I could see it on his
face as he looked straight up at the ceiling and back to the floor in
bewilderment. His reaction was sorta like, "Yeah, that doesn't sound right."
Something along the lines of "You need to get in a physical church, otherwise,
you aren't really pleasing the Lord as you should and living the Christian life
right." He said it differently and way more politely but that was the gist of
what he was trying to tell me.
I don't disagree that physical assembly is better but it is only the superior
choice when it's with the right people who love the truth and where the Bible is
being taught seriously and in-depth. Otherwise you would have to compromise your
spiritual growth in a place that does more harm than good. But good churches are
so rare and hard to find in today's Laodicean church. So he basically proceeds
to rig me with another question to dissuade me from the whole online
approach--he asks me how believers met up in New Testament times and pointed out
that they all met up in person without forsaking the physical assembly (we don't
have any other examples in the Bible where they did it much differently so the
reasoning goes). I already mentioned earlier that most churches are lukewarm and
lack good serious Bible teaching but, naturally, he proceeded to tell me that I
would like his groups/churches that he recommended because they were serious and
in-depth. I disagreed but again held my tongue. The problem with most believers
today is that they can't tell the difference between good quality teaching and
sub par spiritual food. Most believers today don't even know the true meaning of
love and unity! I can't tell you how many times I hear those words thrown around
by those who deceive themselves into thinking they understand and apply those
words adequately.
He also asked me if there were any personal doctrinal beliefs I hold that would
create problems with any of the groups he recommended. I dodged the question
because I didn't want to get into that at our meeting. I simply referred him to
my website to allow it to speak for me.
At the end of the day I understand it's important to not care about what other
people think since they're misguided and only part of the lukewarm problem
itself despite what they wish to believe. In fact, from this point on into the
future, I feel as if it would probably be best if I didn't even send you these
types of emails since none of this surprises us and, therefore, has become
somewhat of a waste of time since we expect things like this to happen. But
sometimes it's good to get a sanity check and a few supportive and encouraging
words from another brother in Christ who understands you spiritually (you are
also my teacher, so...).
Don't get me wrong, this pastor I talked with is doing great things by teaching,
church planting, witnessing, and training. To put it this way, he's definitely
doing more than most believers out there, I'll tell you that and I'm confident
he has a great reward waiting for him in the future kingdom. But as far as what
a church should look like, its purpose, and how it should operate, he still
comes across as being caught up in the Laodicean rut, that combined with a lot
of the false things he believes and teaches. Heck, he even said that engaging in
textual criticism in certain places of the Bible was dangerous. One example he
gave was the long ending in Mark. He said that, after taking that verse in
Revelation out of context, we aren't supposed to add or take away from the
Bible, so he says he doesn't feel it is his right to say whether it belongs in
Scripture or not because the long ending in Mark has been there for such a long
time that who would dare to remove it? But doesn't that kinda mean you're
failing to do your job as a pastor teacher by not rightly dividing the word of
truth? Yes, I know the answer.
Anyway, he knows about you and my site and said he would look into Ichthys
further. Assuming he does, he isn't going to be happy with what he sees. I tried
to keep telling him your ministry was online for a reason but He didn't seem
phased from his suspicions so there wasn't anything else I could say. I
recommended him to send you an email but we'll see if that ever happens. Who
knows.
In His name,
Response #12:
I'm always happy to hear from you, my friend! Further, things like this are very
needful to discuss. I certainly understand and appreciate that as well. I will
also say that genuine Christians who are actually pursuing the truth and a
closer walk with Jesus Christ are naturally more sensitive to any sort of
suggestion or intimation that they are not doing things the right way –
precisely because they ARE doing things the right way. Also, this is good for
you, because as a leader you are going to be tested on this point over and over
again. There will be plenty of people out there, people with "good credentials",
people who make "reasonable arguments", people who throw it in your face that
you're not doing what everyone else is doing. That, my friend, is a GOOD thing.
Did the apostle Paul ever "plant a church" the way these people do? No. For him,
a church was a group of believers who were dedicated to spiritual growth. To
evangelicals, like your friend, a church is a group who are banded together to
build a church building and to do all the things that the other Christians they
know are doing: water-baptizing, great music programs, coffee hours and circles,
Sunday morning get-togethers where nothing of substance is taught, developing a
patina of holiness to impress outsiders. Mind you, some of these new converts
probably are Christians (just who converted them / gave them the gospel may not
be clear, but church-planters tend to take credit which is questionable even if
they did plant a seed or two and water a bit). But what are we as Christians
supposed to be doing in this world? Not the same the thing that the lukewarm are
doing. Is that what Jesus Christ wants from us? If it were about groups and
building which style themselves "Christian", the Roman Catholics and
Greek/Russian Orthodox (and Coptics and others) should get the prize because
they have, for the most part, bigger and more impressive building, bigger and
more loyal congregations. Which is why, I suppose, the mega-church phenomenon is
now all the rage. And how do the megas get so many people to come? Through
teaching the truth? Please. They do it by having the best buildings, the biggest
crowds, the most impressive music, the most inspiring sermonizing pastors.
Everybody loves a circus. Almost everyone. Personally, I've had my fill of
clowns.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."
Matthew 23:15 NIVFor I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge (epignosis = truth believed).
Romans 10:2 NKJV
Based on the above, we can say definitively that effort is not the same thing as
pleasing Jesus Christ. In fact, we know, that everything good done in this life,
truly good, is empowered by the Spirit and comes "by grace, through faith" and
"not by works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9). Maybe this fellow will
earn a good reward. On the other hand, there are lot of individuals out there in
Laodicea who are admired who are merely heaping up their bonfire of wood, hay
and stubble. Jesus Christ will be the judge. Just because you and I may be
willing to be generous and admit that we don't know everything about everyone
else's motives, doesn't mean that the Lord doesn't know. Would you trade one
page of your website for all the churches this guy has planted? If you would,
then you'd need to reconsider what you're doing. If you thought that his way was
the right way, you'd still be back in one of those churches you used to go to,
doing your best to "make it grow". That, of course, wouldn't involve trying to
teach anyone in it the truth or lead anyone in it to the truth – because that
would merely push potential attendees away. They are not there because they love
the truth, because they want the truth.
The testimony of this fellow reported by you tells me all I need to know. In
terms of basic truth, you knew more than him after your first month of reading
into Ichthys. Knowledge by itself means nothing, but what you know is true, and
you have believed it, and you have grown, grown to the point where you can
easily surmise all of the flaws and fallacies of someone who is "a pillar" of
evangelicaldom (there are many out there like him and they are largely cut from
the same cloth). Such people are not ignorant of the truth by accident. They
were never interested in it the first place. And they wear their ignorance of
any technical or deep doctrinal information like a badge of honor. Somehow they
are more spiritual because of their unwillingness to learn anything useful. I
have seen this a lot.
This is not a small issue. How can we grow closer to Jesus Christ without knowing
about Him? And how can we know about Him without learning what the Bible has to
say? And how can we ignore any aspect of the truth and really be building our
spiritual edifice on the Rock since He is the Rock and He is the Truth
(Matt.7:24-27; Lk.6:47-49)? Refusing to learn and believe the truth is refusing
to learn about our Lord and to build our faith in Him. True edification only
happens by taking in the truth, believing the truth, and applying the truth
under pressure. This you have personally experienced – and you know how good it
is. Why would anyone, any Christian, want to down-play this most obvious
principle of the Christian life after salvation? We know the answer. They do it
because if they didn't they would have to face the fact that they are wasting
their precious time down here on earth.
We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise.
2nd Corinthians 10:12 NIV
It's not wise to assume that because everyone else is doing it, because everyone
else has "always done it this way", that it's the right thing to do. In fact
it's terribly foolish. As mentioned, the church-model that is being recommended
and suggested as "necessary" is really no different from that of the spiritually
dead Roman Catholic model. The only difference I see is that the RCs teach quite
openly that you can't be saved without being in their church; the Laodicean
Protestants merely insinuate it – so strongly that there is no doubt about what
they really think on this point (as you have recently discovered). But it is of
course not only not true that attending a physical church is a necessary means
to salvation or spiritual growth. If the church is passing out only pabulum – as
they almost all are exclusively – then binding oneself in fellowship with such a
place will actually only produce spiritual regression. And in the very near
future, when antichrist co-opts institutional Christianity, such associations
will be the origin no doubt of the one third who fall into apostasy. These
people won't have the spiritual muscle of truth in the heart, truth tested and
believed, to be able to withstand all the subtle attacks to come.
If spiritual growth can take place in a building (why not?) within a regular
group (why not?), then I am all for it. But we are commanded/commended to not
neglect "meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing" precisely in order
to be "encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching"
(Heb.10:25)! The Day IS approaching. Genuine encouragement can only occur
through reminding one another of the truth (not through sharing a sweet roll).
AND, in the context of that verse in Hebrews, the people in Jerusalem at fault
were precisely the ones who WERE "going to church/assembly" . . . in the temple.
They were going to the wrong place and were not being instructed in the truth
but in things which were misapplied and to such a grievous extent that they were
blasphemous in truth. Sounds to me a great deal like the experience in almost
every Laodicean church out there today.
So of course they don't appreciate this gargantuan set of shortcomings being
pointed out. And we don't need to say a thing. Merely by doing the right thing,
merely by "existing", we who are genuinely trying to follow Jesus Christ the way
He desires us to do constitute a reproach to them. So of course they would like
to squelch us, to embarrass us, to throw us into great guilt. We HAVE to be dead
wrong. Otherwise, they are wrong. And of course they could never be wrong. Soon
enough, us being pariahs will not be enough for them. I expect the persecution
to start as soon as the Tribulation does, even if martyrdom doesn't come until
mid-way through. This has always been the plan of the evil one. But we know who
it is in whom we have believed and we know that He is able to bring us through
it all, if that be His good pleasure. Whatever betides, we make it our top
priority at all times to please Jesus Christ.
Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.
2nd Corinthians 5:9-10 NASB20
This is the true "fear of the Lord" (1Cor.5:11), respecting and revering Him enough to do what HE says and desires, not what "everybody else" deems right. We have gone down this path for conscience' sake. And no social pressure will ever be able to make us call a lie the truth.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Isaiah 5:20 NIV
When anyone rejects basic truth, truth that should be evident even on cursorily
reading the English Bible with an honest heart, how is it not the same as the
verse above? I don't wish any of our brethren in the church-visible ("churchianity")
ill. But I also don't hold out much hope for any major change in Laodicean
attitudes before "the Day" actually arrives.
I think you were very wise not to cast forth too many pearls. They have a
tendency to throw swine into a very great rage. We can pray for these people. We
can, as you did, send out gentle indicators that things may not be as they
suppose – something they surely know in their heart of hearts (which is why they
get SO defensive around those who are not willing to settle for their "pottage"
substitutes). But we can never let ourselves get down on ourselves for doing
what is right – even if (and perhaps especially if) the whole world thinks we
are wrong. Because, after all, it's not this world that counts – and this world
at present lies in the devil's lap.
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
1st John 5:19 NIV (cf. Jn.12:31; 14:30; 16:11).
But we have nothing to fear here, even in spite of all such trouble. In the end, if we overcome with our faith – in the truth – we have only a good reward and "well done!" to look forward to on the other side.
“These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
John 16:33 NKJV
For whoever has been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.
1st John 5:4 NIV
It is my earnest desire for you and for all your comrades to have the blessing
and the experience of a group of believers to teach face to face, and half a
dozen sitting on the floor in your apartment actually eager for the truth is a
superior situation to five thousand in a huge modern temple who merely want to
be entertained.
In Him who is the Truth, our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #13:
I'm always happy to hear from you, my friend! Further, things like this are very needful to discuss. I certainly understand and appreciate that as well. I will also so that genuine Christians who are actually pursuing the truth and a closer walk with Jesus Christ are naturally more sensitive to any sort of suggestion or intimation that they are not doing things the right way -- precisely because they ARE doing things the right way. Also, this is good for you, because as a leader you are going to be tested on this point over and over again. There will be plenty of people out there, people with "good credentials", people who make "reasonable arguments", people who throw it in your face that you're not doing what everyone else is doing. That, my friend, is a GOOD thing.
Your response was very encouraging, especially this paragraph above. Thank you
professor. One thing I should clarify is that I'm actually not sure whether this
man plants churches, I may have misremembered that but I do know that he is a
pastor and missionary and teaches at various churches and trains others in
various countries (he knows multiple languages). Not that this point changes
anything of course. No, I would never trade my website for what he's doing, not
that I'm trying to compare of course (you knew that though). It's great to win
people for Christ but just "going through the motions" of teaching isn't the
same as teaching the truth seriously and in-depth because the latter is going to
cause the most change and make the greatest impacts. Generally speaking, I've
always believed that just because someone is in ministry doesn't mean they're
doing a good job at it (not speaking of this man specifically of course). This
pastor did tell me that he teaches systematic theology as well so I couldn't
tell you the quality of his teaching in those specific areas. I couldn't tell
you about his overall teaching in general. I'm not the judge and it is before
the Lord that this man will rise or fall. The overall good he has done and the
quality of his work are all unkowable to me and I say this only because it's the
truth and because we are told not to judge before the time. I just don't want to
do anything dangerous, that's all (I'm not the judge so I'm just being cautious
Jude 1:9). But yes, I still take issue with his approach/attitude and many of
the things he believes. I don't want anything to do with him.
Just thinking about this more does make me wonder- Is lukewarmness really a
binary thing? Me and __ have talked about this before because it aroused our
curiosity. I mean, there are definitely different levels of it so I know a
matter of degrees exists (some are more lukewarm than others). Even though the
churches and groups this man recommended are pretty bad (I personally know
this), this man has been in ministry for years and had to have grown and
progressed spiritually to get where he is at now, so do you think it would be
unreasonable to suppose he is lukewarm just because he gets a few major
doctrines wrong? There have been many great men of God over the years who have
gotten some bigger things wrong yet I wouldn't think that alone would decide
whether they were red hot or not (it isn't like they haven't gotten a lot of
things right too). Or is it just the consistency which is the issue? Are the
major doctrines and teachings (even if they are only a few common ones we know
about) that most pastors get wrong today enough to speak for their spiritual
condition?
I mean, it is possible some of this man's teaching is generally serious and
in-depth (I haven't actually listened to or heard any of it for many many years)
so I wouldn't want to make an individual judgment call like I just mentioned
above. Serious believers grow spiritually, progress, and come into using their
spiritual gifts in the ministry(s) God has for them. Assuming a believer has
done this (as this man seems to have done), how can we really characterize them
with the rest of Laodicea? What are your thoughts on this? I understand why and
how the church at large is lukewarm (I teach this myself in one of my studies
which makes most churches a complete and dangerous waste of time) but my concern
is that I'm not sure it's something we can so easily parse for individuals. I
mean, maybe it's a silly baffling question coming from me but how would you
describe what an individual lukewarm Christian looks like since the Bible never
does? Yes, I know there isn't a specific definition but how can we better
describe the meaning to people? Your help would be appreciated. I'm just very
leery of going around and calling out individuals as lukewarm when there is much
in their lives (internally and externally) that I'm not seeing. I think you
understand what I'm getting at here.
I ask all the above because some may ask, "Who are we to decide if someone is
lukewarm since we don't know their hearts?" Again, a strange question coming
from me but sometimes it doesn't hurt to reexamine our beliefs just to make sure
we really do understand the issue properly. One thing we know for sure- most
believers today are lukewarm. But I'm just not sure it's always so simple to
assess someone on an individual basis, that's my primary concern.
In His grace and power,
Response #13:
Re: "Who are we to decide if someone is lukewarm since we don't know their hearts?" So I agree with everything you've written here, and I do understand what you are wrestling with. As mentioned in the last email, Christians who are not lukewarm, who are, in all humility, striving to please Jesus Christ, are always the most vulnerable to intimations that perhaps they are "not doing it right". And it's easy to feel guilty about not doing what others are doing, even when you KNOW that you left that pottage behind a long time ago for good reason. If Jesus were telling us to go to church, we would; if He were telling us to focus on music and "fellowship" and supporting church programs and buildings, etc., we would. Is that what He is telling us? How do we know what He is telling us? By listening to those who have always done it their way? Or by studying scripture.
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?"
Luke 6:46 NIV
Even in His own day, plenty of people talked a good game and "did things" for Him (so they imagined). But did they do what He wanted them to do?
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"
Matthew 7:21-23 NIV
What is the will of the Father? We know that the first and most necessary thing
is to accept His Son as our Lord and Savior. After that, we are to deny
ourselves (put His will in front of ours) pick up our crosses (commit to what He
has for us) and follow Him (get cracking and keep at it, growing, progressing,
producing for Him). Is that what evangelicalcom, the church-visible, or
churchianity in general is doing? If we thought so, we'd just join them. It's a
lot easier. It's a lot more fun. It avoids the wrath and the disdain of our
fellow Christians who are doing what they are doing. And we can just program it
in. Enjoy the music. Enjoy the coffee cake. And just drift. Because I don't see
any of these places making any serious spiritual progress whatsoever.
Is being red hot for the Lord exhibiting emotion? Is it throwing one's hands up
in church, booming out hymns, volunteering for the latest outreach crusade,
giving money, money, more money? What does it mean to be the opposite of
lukewarm? Isn't it doing "what I tell you", rather than "doing what everyone
else is doing"? What DOES Jesus Christ want us to do? If we are doing that,
striving to do it well, then we are zealous for Him. If we are not, then we are
not. For me, it's as simple as that.
If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church.
Philippians 3:4b-6a NKJV
Just because people talk a good game, and just because they work, work, work,
does not mean that they have the kind of zeal that our Lord wants. He wants us
to do what He wants in the way in which He wants it done. How can we even have a
clue what that is for our individual lives without being close to Him through
the Word of truth? We know from experience the power of the truth. Quickened by
the Holy Spirit, there's nothing more powerful or blessed in the entire world.
And we want to share that with others. But they claim they don't need it. Or
that they are getting it doing what they are doing. Or that they already have
plenty of it. Or that, really, it's "love" that counts, relationships with
others in their churches. Honestly, we don't spurn these things. Of course we
value the Christian relationships we do have and crave more. But we appreciate
those who value the truth and who are really following Jesus Christ, not merely
playing at it or "nodding to God" by going through the motions the easy way, the
way that "everybody else is doing it".
And that begs the question. If these individuals, whoever they are, ministers or
lay, of whatever church or denomination, were REALLY eager to know more about
Jesus Christ, to draw closer to Him, to obey the "Do what I say", then why is it
that whenever we inquire or probe or go to one of these place or listen to one
of these "sermons", each and every time we find emptiness behind the facade.
No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before!
Isaiah 47:14b RSV
I am zealous for the Church of Jesus Christ – and I know you and ___ and ___ and the others are as well. Otherwise, why would you have embarked on this difficult journey? You could have joined a denomination, gone to a seminary, had a path and a track. As long as you did things their way, you'd also get paid for it. A nice life. Not to say you'd be doing nothing for the Lord. Not to say it would be easy (no job is easy). But which of these paths is lukewarm? And which of them is truly zealous for the Lord? If we didn't know any better, perhaps there would be an excuse. But in the end, all ignorance is self-sought and self-imposed. These individuals don't "get it" because they don't want to.
"And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, ‘The old is better.' "
Luke 5:39 NIV
We have chosen the powerful new wine our Savior has given us to drink. Wine that busts open the old skins. Those who like the old want no part of that. That is no business of mine. They are all free to choose what's really important to them. But if Jesus Christ were REALLY most important in their lives, wouldn't they be doing everything possible to seek Him out? And that means seeking out His truth in the Word of God, not merely occasionally reading some of it and tangentially concerning oneself with a few teachings from it. It means total commitment to the entire body of truth, to find it, to learn it, to believe it, to apply it, to live it and to share it with others.
Then Jesus came over and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me, so go and make all nations my followers by baptizing them [with the Spirit] into the Person (i.e., “name”) of the Father and [into the Person] of the Son and [into the Person] of the Holy Spirit, and by teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you.”
Matthew 28:18-20a
I don't wish to judge anyone else either. I'm zealous for the truth to be shared
a little and a lot (Mk.9:40; Lk.9:50). I choose the latter but I'm happy that
there is even any of the former taking place (Phil.1:15-18). Jesus Christ will
be the Judge of others as well as of ourselves. We are careful not even to judge
ourselves before the time (1Cor.4:5). But though we can't see what the others are
thinking, we can certainly see what they are doing . . . and what they are not.
Keeping you in my daily prayers, my friend. Keep fighting the good fight!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #14:
Well said and agreed. Very helpful and insightful. Thanks Dr. Luginbill. I guess
sometimes I need these things put into words that I struggled to say or couldn't
have said better myself (you generally speak and explain things in a very good
and special way and I always appreciate that). It is a further great
encouragement that I didn't misjudge my spiritual life choices but did what I
was supposed to do. Doesn't necessarily mean there isn't some physical
fellowship awaiting me in the future, of course, but whether it comes or not
will all be determined by what the Lord wants for me based on His perfect will
(assuming I heed and chase after it as I should). I feel more at ease now.
In Jesus,
Response #14:
Thanks for the good words, my friend. It's my pleasure as always. Here's another passage I should have quoted:
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.”
John 21:15-17 NIV
Saying this three times to the head disciple as one of the very last commands He gave shows just how important this issue is to our Lord. Simply put, there is nothing more important for a PASTOR than feeding the FLOCK. That is what we are here for. We "take care of them" and "protect them from wolves" NOT by making sure they get good sweet rolls but by feeding them with the Word. That is the only thing that protects and results in GROWTH through the intake of good spiritual food. That is job #1 for every pastor and every assembly of believers. Everything else in the Church, all spiritual gifting and everything else, is supposed to support that critical mission. We see the creeping in of the false in all manner of other organizations too. The university used to be a place where students learned from professors who were good in their field. Now mostly students pay way too much to learn pseudoscience from adjuncts who don't have Ph.D.s let alone a research track-record. Instead, the money goes to the bureaucracy, buildings, sports, etc. Same thing in the military which is now very top heavy and rear support heavy with very few men left at the "tip of the spear". But in the church-visible it's even worse than in these two secular examples (Satan knows where it's most critical to attack), to the point that someone like yourself who is trying to do what the Lord clearly commanded has his motives challenged and his approach disparaged whenever the subject comes up.
(6) But Timothy has just now come to us from you and has brought good news about your faith and love. He has told us that you always have pleasant memories of us and that you long to see us, just as we also long to see you. (7) Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith. (8) For now we really live, since you are standing firm in the Lord. (9) How can we thank God enough for you in return for all the joy we have in the presence of our God because of you? (10) Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith.
1st Thessalonians 3:6-10 NIV
This exemplifies what it is like to have the true "heart of a pastor" (see
the link), a man who really cares about his flock, cares enough to do what
Jesus told Peter to do: "feed My sheep". Everything else is secondary because
without solid food there is no growth and no way forward – no defense against
the wolves. Why is this so hard for "them" to understand? Because "they" have
convinced themselves that a fifteen minute sermon on Sunday is all that is
needed. That is ridiculous of course, especially when we consider that such
sermons are generally devoid of spiritual content that might engender growth,
and that what "content" they do have is often – as in the case of this
individual whose cleaving to false doctrines you report – dead wrong.
It is true that very few sheep are following us. That is regrettable. But it
doesn't make us wrong to be calling to them and offering them solid food and
good pasture. The fact that they (for the most part) are not willing is not
something to be laid against us – as long as we are doing what we are supposed
to be doing, diligently preparing to teach and teaching in the venue the Lord
gives us to those blessed few who DO understand what is important (Jn.10:41-42).
And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you (i.e., in teaching the Word), and are over you in the Lord and admonish you (i.e., through the Word), and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake (i.e., in studying and teaching).
1st Thessalonians 5:12-13a NKJV
Until I (i.e., Paul) come, devote yourself to [public] reading [of the scriptures], to encouragement, to teaching [the Word].
1st Timothy 4:13
Let those elders who lead well be held worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the Word and in teaching.
1st Timothy 5:17
Be zealous to present yourself to God [as one] approved [in what you do], a workman who does not need to be ashamed, [like a skillful carpenter] "cutting straight" the Word of truth.
2nd Timothy 2:15
Proclaim the Word! Keep at it, whether circumstances are favorable or not! Reprove, rebuke, [and] encourage with all patience [in your] teaching!
2nd Timothy 4:2
(7) In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness (8) and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.
Titus 2:7-8 NIV
Keeping you in my prayers, my friend. Keep fighting the GOOD fight.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #15:
Dear Bob L.,
I read some of your discussions about Mr P. and I wanted to ask, which Bible
verses specifically contradict the things he said?
Bless you
Response #15:
And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
2nd Corinthians 12:3-4 NIV
Based on the above alone, without getting into specifics, if a person did have such experiences, they would not be allowed to share them; if they do share them, then either they didn't really have them and are delusional or they are not being truthful.
Question #16:
Interesting. Thank you for answering but didn’t John also have an encounter and then wrote about it? I mean he was specifically told to write it down but Howard Pittman states that GOD gave him a message to bring to the church. If you are already sick of this Howard Pittman-discussion then sorry for my questions and have a blessed rest of the week!
Response #16:
Well, yes, John, the last apostle of the Lamb, whose name will be
on one of the gates of New Jerusalem (Rev.21:14), was given to write THE
"Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev.1:1), the final book of the Bible which closes
the canon of scripture rendering the Bible complete and unalterable
(Rev.22:18-19).
For someone to say, "Oh, but here's some other information you might be
interested in" takes quite a bit of hutzpah. Is P. saying he's on the
same level with John? Or Paul? Or Jesus Christ?
It's very easy for someone to say, "God told me this" or "God told me to do
this". One hears the same or similar all the time. Is it ever true? Ever? Since
the close of the canon of scripture we would be foolish to ever believe someone
who says this. Because we CANNOT know that it is true. And since we CANNOT
possibly know for certain that it is true, we should consider it NOT true. After
all, we have the Bible. If it is in the Bible, we KNOW that it is true. But
people say all manner of things. If you believe P., why not Buddha or Joseph
Smith. Or antichrist. After all, the beast and his false prophet will do amazing
things.
"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand."
Matthew 13:22-23 NKJV
There is so much truth in the Bible that it would take many lifetimes of
diligent study to learn it all. Why should we waste our time on things
that we cannot prove are true when we know the Bible is true . . . especially
since those other things most likely are NOT true.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #17:
Thanks Bob for the Answer!
But there is another thing I’m worried about. Aren’t we able to know if it’s
true if it lines up with the word of God? Because if it lines up with the word
of God then it is just telling things again which are already written in the
Bible and if I understood Howard Pittman correctly, his point is that many
people are lukewarm and that’s why he only saw 1 out of 40 people go into
heaven. So if it just says something again that the Bible already says it could
be right, or am I wrong? I mean, it is written that God will pour out his Holy
Ghost on his followers In this time (i think?), so what would be the point of
them to prophecy if we could not approve it of beeing true and so had to declare
is at wrong?
(Sorry if my English isn’t the best, it’s not my mother language and I yet did
not graduate)
Response #17:
My pleasure.
Re: "if it lines up with the Word of God", this is what I always tell
people. If someone claims to have an experience and it lines up with the Word
100%, then while I may be prudently skeptical, I don't make any big deal about
it. But take the one thing you shared with me: "1 out of 40 people got into
heaven": that statistic is NOT in the Word. It may be pessimistic, it may be
optimistic – and I suppose it is possible that it is (accidentally) right on the
money (even a broken clock is right twice a day). But who are we talking about
here? The entire human race? People who call themselves Christians? Actual
believers at one point most of whom fall away? And when are we talking about
here? The entire Church Age? 100 years ago? Today? During the soon to come
Tribulation (where one third of present day believers are prophesied to fall
away)? Putting out a number like that causes speculation, unnecessary doubts
and/or false confidence that otherwise would not happen from reading the Bible
or accessing solid, orthodox Bible teaching. As scripture says, "a little leaven
leavens the whole lump" (1Cor.5:6; Gal 5:9), meaning that it doesn't take much
more than a single, small untruth to complicate, eviscerate and confuse a whole
area of teaching.
As to the Holy Spirit, all believers have the Spirit indwelling, and all
believers are given spiritual gifts. However, as 1st Corinthians chapter 13
makes very clear, now that we have the Bible ("the perfect"), the spectacular
gifts described in Acts in the very early days of the Church Age (designed by
God to "fill the void" where there was no completed Bible and where there was no
infrastructure of prepared believers with the gift of teaching and/or
institutions to train them to teach), have now ceased. There is now no longer
any legitimate speaking in tongues (if I want to be a missionary, I'll have to
learn the language), or gift of knowledge (if I want to know biblical
information necessary to teach others, I'll have to learn it the hard way), or
prophecy (all scripture is prophetic and now the scriptures are completed:
adding to them is a grave sin; if there were additions, it would confuse the
whole). So, no, no one today is a prophet . . . unless he/she is a false prophet
(Matt.13:22-23).
For more on these issues, see the link:
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #18:
Thanks Bob for the answer!
Interesting. So the whole point is the statistic might be wrong or true, but
because we will not know we should just study scripture and take our information
from it, right?
But now to the other thing “so, no, no one today is a prophet”. You statement
would be that people who prophecy and get people to believe in Jesus Christ
through that are wrong prophets? Or are you saying that they are lying?
In Jesus!
Response #18:
Re: "So the whole point is the statistic might be wrong or true, but because
we will not know we should just study scripture and take our information from
it, right?" That is one point. Another (of many), is that the only
substantive thing you shared with me from Mr. P. turns out to be highly
problematic (indicating only more of the same from whatever other non-biblical
"information" he shared).
Since no one today has the gift of prophecy, whatever people are doing that is
claimed to be prophecy clearly is not. In the Bible, a prophet is a man
empowered by God to give a message from God to His people. A man (or woman) who
claims to have received a message directly from God but who actually has not is,
by definition, a false prophet. No one can manufacture the gift of prophecy.
Either one has it or one does not. Either God has given a person this gift or He
has not. The Bible says that after "the perfect" has come (i.e., after the
Bible, God's message, is complete), then no other message will be forthcoming:
"But where there are prophecies, they will cease" (1Cor.13:8 NIV).
They have ceased. And the apostle John, the last of the apostles, tells us this
in no uncertain terms:
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:18-19 NKJV
Being the last book in the Bible, the last one written and its crowning glory
since it is "THE revelation of Jesus Christ", that
is, describing His return (when we will have the Living Word Himself in person
with us), this applies, obviously, to the whole Bible.
It is symptomatic of this era of the Church age, the last era, that of Laodicea,
that people have "itching ears" and are eager to hear things that are not in the
Bible (and hence not true), but have zero patience to sit down and
listen/read/learn what is actually in the Bible and given to us by God for our
spiritual growth. There is a lot about that in
Coming Tribulation part 2A:
The Seven Churches (at the link).
As to doing a wrong thing and getting a good result, God is capable of using
even evil agents for His own purposes, as He will do, for example, with the
first two "woes" described in Revelation (where demon armies are released to
accomplish His greater purpose). That doesn't mean that we should honor or
respect or listen to demons, even if what they are saying at the moment happens
to be true.
And demons also were coming out of many, shouting and saying, “You are the Son of God!” But rebuking them, He was not allowing them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.
Luke 4:41 LSB
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #19:
Thanks Bob!
Are you sure that the Bible is “the perfect“ mentioned in these scriptures? I do
not say that it is not perfect but that „the perfect“ might be something else. I
would be surprised if every modern prophet who prophecies and it also happens
what he said would be a wrong prophet.
Blessings!
Response #19:
Re: "Are you sure that the Bible is “the perfect“ mentioned in these scriptures?" Yes indeed. The whole context in 1st Corinthians chapter 13 is about spiritual gifts designed to communicate God's truth, gifts which were operative before the canon was closed. After it was closed, these gifts ceased. And what else would "the perfect thing" be (this is neuter in the Greek)? Perfection (root tel-) in the New Testament usually has to do with spiritual growth and/or the means of achieving it, namely, through the teaching, hearing, learning and applying of the truth . . . found only in the Bible (see the link). See also these links on "the perfect":
Re: "I would be surprised if every modern prophet who prophecies and it also
happens what he said would be a wrong prophet.": And I am surprised that you
think that there are "modern prophets". Says who? Not God. People who proclaim
themselves to be prophets are not for that reason prophets. Only God the Holy
Spirit can give any spiritual gift and He has not given the gift of prophecy
since the first century . . . because the Bible is now complete and there is no
need of any further prophecy since everything God intends for us to know this
side of heaven is already in the Bible.
But that false prophets are prophesied to arise is something the Lord Himself
told us.
". . . and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people."
Matthew 24:11
"For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time."
Matthew 24:24-25 NIV
So just because they seem genuine does not mean that they are, even if, like the beast's false prophet, they perform "great signs and wonders" (Rev.13:13-14). It is necessary for such to arise in order to fulfill prophecy and also to test believers to see if they will prefer the truth to lies (cf. 1Cor.11:19).
"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."
Deuteronomy 13:1-3 NIV
You may say, "these modern prophets are not leading us to other gods", to which I reply, "leading a believer to any authority other than to the Word of God amounts to the same thing, because only through God's actual truth are we protected in this world and helped to do what Jesus wants us to do".
"I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."
John 17:15-17 NKJV
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #20:
Dr. Luginbill,
I've been trying to discover a spiritual path for so many years. I originally
acquired an understanding of the mysteries of the first two Genesis chapters
after using Hebrew interlinear language apps 5 to 6 years ago. My original
hypothesis was that Genesis 1 is picking up after the flood of Noah. And Genesis
2 is actually the original creation story before Noah.
I think there are so many mysterious things to be understood before the current
iteration of humanity. The Bible seems explicitly lacking in specifics. Running
across your Satanic Rebellion document was like finding water in a desert. There
are many with old earth hypotheses, but this was the first time I ran across a
theory so closely related to my neophyte assumptions.
Your depth of knowledge has surely taken decades of deep study to acquire. I'm
personally lost. I want a church to worship in that hasn't atrophied with
society. I believe Jesus lived a life full of action. Being amongst those that
needed healing more than all of the supposed holy men of His of time. If you
could share a few words with me about where and why you worship the places you
do. How a person struggling to find a spiritual home might succeed. I would so
greatly appreciate it.
With Sincere Love,
Response #20:
Good to make your acquaintance, and thanks much for the vote of confidence.
If you've read the second part of the SR series, "The
Genesis Gap", then you will know that we have a different take on the first
two chapters of Genesis. I think if you will read the whole series you may find
that there is a continuity to the interpretation which is in itself a proof.
In terms of the "where?" question, I don't have any physical churches I can
recommend. I do vouch for Bible Academy (at
the link), and there are other references listed at Ichthys (at
the link), but these are all online an not "brick and mortar" places.
As I tell everyone, "Ichthys is my church". I post a substantial set of
responses every Saturday night (for consumption Sunday), and also larger
postings when they are completed for the current major series (presently working
on Hebrews; see the link).
This ministry is on the internet for a reason. We are in the final era of the
Church Age, Laodicea, and the interest for substantive Bible teaching among
believers today is very low. People want to be entertained. They go to physical
churches to "worship", by which they mean listening to music, or seeing light
shows, or indulging in charismatic excesses, or high ritual, with everything
focused on social life, and no concern for actually teaching the Word of God in
an orthodox and substantive way sufficient to produce spiritual growth. Simply
put, if a person wants to grow closer to the Lord and produce for Him in this
life, they will have to do it the hard way, rolling up their sleeves, so to
speak, and digging into the truth. Ichthys is designed to help with that. If I
knew of a physical church where that was happening, I'd be happy to tell you
about it, but I do not.
You are certainly welcome to all the materials at Ichthys, any time!
There is an Ichthys "forum" where a number of believers who are dedicated to
this ministry get together virtually on a weekly basis. I would be happy to
forward your name and address to the moderator if interested.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #21:
Dear Bob,
I admire you greatly, so your prompt response left me both surprised and
touched.
I would be so grateful if you could forward my name and address to the forum
moderator so I can join. I've just started the process of rolling up my sleeves
to do the hard work.
I'm excited to delve into all the resources you've provided. Thank you for
recommending the Bible Academy
as well.
With Sincere Gratitude,
Response #21:
I just sent the moderator a request on your behalf. Let me know if you don't get
an invite within a week (often these requests go into junk/spam folders for some
reason, probably because they ARE legitimate).
Also, do let me know if you have any problems navigating the site. It has gotten
rather large.
In Jesus,
Bob L.