Question #1:
Hi Bob,
Feedback on the statement of purpose for my upcoming ministry website.
I'm almost done with the main framework, but wanted to get your feedback
on my statement of purpose for the website. It involves Ichthys fairly
heavily, which is why I want to run it by you to make sure nothing looks
off, and to make sure that it seems like I explain things in a
reasonably understandable and competent way (that it "makes sense" what
I am setting out to do -- and that the explanation would make sense even
to people not already familiar with Ichthys).
I'm very interested to hear what you think (I do apologize it is a bit
long, so please take your time in getting back to me).
[omitted]
Your brother in Christ,
Response #1:
Good to hear back from you. Hope it all goes well on the job.
I think your concept is excellent and your statement of purpose superb.
I'm a little surprised though, I have to admit, that you want to invest
your time and energy this way. Not saying it's wrong in principle (it's
certainly a worthy idea) or even wrong for you – as a sideline. I say
this because, while I see that this is set up as a "ministry #2", I can
see how it might easily transmogrify into a very large undertaking with
the potential of eating up most of your spare time. If this becomes your
main life's work, well OK then. But I can tell from what you've posted
in the past that you're an excellent Bible teacher. You have to figure
out what the Spirit is calling you to do.
Keeping you in my prayers daily, my friend.
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #2:
Hi Bob,
On ministry direction
If I can translate what you are saying, it's something like you are
surprised with this direction because it involves more apologetics and
less teaching?
I can tell you my thought process was to try and figure out "Where do I
fit? How I can create something different from Ichthys to be of the most
use?"
I wanted/still want to have a good idea of where I'm going and why
before drawing up the anchor and setting out. This was draft #1, I
suppose you could say. So it's not exactly like I have my heart dead-set
on this specifically, as I am trying to metabolize exactly what
direction I should take. A good first step to me seemed to be to
consider what things cause Ichthys to not be "the right place" for some
people, and then focus on creating something different in these specific
ways.
That initial write-up contains the observations I've made over the years
as to the things people give as reasons for not finding Ichthys
satisfactory. The consideration of reduced length and complexity is
something I am going to stick with, and I am quite sure of that. It's
ironic, as I'm sure you know, because it's not like conciseness is
something that comes immediately to mind given my writing. But I am
capable of it, and think that it is something that is quite needful.
Ichthys, Bible Academy, and even __'s newly minted ministry all tend
towards the opposite of this goal, which means there is a distinct void
in this specific area.
As to the apologetic character, I have been struggling to figure out
exactly how useful this sort of thing is. On the surface, the #1 reason
I've had people dismiss things I say (both in my own regard, and with
respect to sharing Ichthys), is that we are too sure of ourselves, and
never let in any room for other possibilities, or dialogue with them.
Too stark, too black and white, not conversant enough with other views
-- things like this. After you replied, I did take a step back and
consider again whether me doing things the way I put forward would
really help these people though. The idea, as I saw it, was to be
presenting the truth in the context of its superiority to the deficient
alternative positions (i.e., still focusing on the truth more than
tearing down false positions, but nonetheless addressing the latter
some). This would seem to solve the complaints that people forward on
the surface, but the question is whether it would really be enough in
their eyes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main reason you don't bother spending
much time on apologetics is because it's simply not necessary for people
who are thirsty for the truth and willing to listen, and never enough
for people who don't want to hear the truth anyway? That is, if people
aren't really willing to listen to us as teachers, then it doesn't
really matter how good our arguments are, they will not ultimately
matter. And if people are willing to listen to us, then we don't need to
tear down all falsehood before getting to the truth, we can simply state
the truth plainly and forgo knocking out all the other options on the
playing field as we don't need to do so for the truth to be received by
these folks.
What then is the purpose of apologetics? Is it a valid calling for some,
or just overhyped and overpromoted in importance?
Given that the time is short, I can see how it makes sense to focus on
the truth over disproving things that aren't true. And it is
incontrovertibly the case that tearing down false positions takes time,
time that could otherwise be spent positively putting forward actual
truth. Is the core of what you were getting at?
Wait, it just hit me that your comments may have been targeted at the
efficiency business relating to my personal website, and have nothing to
do with the somewhat greater focus on apologetics with regards to my
ministry website. Is this the case?
Your brother in Christ,
Response #2:
That's certainly one consideration. We only have so much time and energy. The other has to do with what apologetics "is". There was a definite purpose for the prophets of Israel. For the most part, however, they were ignored, defamed, abused, and often suffered ignominious fates – all at the behest of the Lord and in the Name of the Lord. And while it is true that the stated purpose of their ministries was the repentance of the people, in the vast majority of cases there was no such repentance. This was, of course, known to the Lord before the fact, and yet it was important for the message of repentance to be proclaimed even so. Isaiah volunteered for this sort of ministry (Is.6:8), whereas others, such as Jonah, were a bit more reluctant. Jeremiah complains about it on more than one occasion – under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It's not "fun" to be opposed by all and conspired against by many, so it's not a sort of ministry that I personally would ever consider venturing into absent a strong and unambiguous "call" from the Lord . . .
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
Then said I:
“Ah, Lord GOD!
Behold, I cannot speak, for I am a youth.”
But the LORD said to me:
“Do not say, ‘I am a youth,’
For you shall go to all to whom I send you,
And whatever I command you, you shall speak.
Do not be afraid of their faces,
For I am with you to deliver you,” says the LORD.
Jeremiah 1:4-8 NKJV
. . . because one would need just that sort of protection and support
from the Lord to be kept safe even so.
So I suppose the thing in your essays which stands out and with which I
would take issue the most is the idea that "if only they had the truth
presented to them in a certain way, they would believe it". Long ago
when I first began to get zealous for the Lord and the truth, I had the
same expectation. But since then that has not been my personal
experience nor my observation of the world throughout my life, nor what
I read in scripture . . .
And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”
Isaiah 6:9-10 NKJV
Therefore I said, “Surely these are poor.
They are foolish;
For they do not know the way of the LORD,
The judgment of their God.
I will go to the great men and speak to them,
For they have known the way of the LORD,
The judgment of their God.”
But these have altogether broken the yoke
And burst the bonds.
Jeremiah 5:4-5 NKJV
. . . especially not in our era of Laodicea. So I worry about you, that
you may risk your time and energy and resources without doing anything
but calling down fire on your own position. I reiterate that this is a
sort of ministry – putting the truth out in "the public square" (so to
speak) – but not one to be undertaken lightly.
Bob L.
Question #3:
Hi Bob,
So, for me to paraphrase again and check my understanding, it's more
just that apologetics has this tendency to call down the ire of others
upon oneself (like the prophets of old), so it's not something that one
should undertake lightly or without due consideration. It's a definite
calling -- one distinct from teaching -- so while it has its place, it's
not something to casually tack on... all this on top of the time
opportunity cost considerations already enumerated.
This the main idea?
-----------------------------------
Clarification
Two emails back you make this statement:
"I'm a little surprised though, I have to admit, that you want to
invest your time and energy this way. Not saying it's wrong in principle
(it's certainly a worthy idea) or even wrong from you – as a sideline. I
say this because, while I see that this is set up as a "ministry #2", I
can see how it might easily transmogrify into a very large undertaking
with the potential of eating up most of your spare time. If this becomes
your main life's work, well OK then. But I can tell from what you've
posted in the past that you're an excellent Bible teacher. You have to
figure out what the Spirit is calling you to do."
What is "this way" that I want to invest my time and energy that you are
talking about, the thing that is a worthy idea?
What is the "this" in the statements "I see that this is set up as a
'ministry #2'... If this is you main life's work..."? Are you referring
to my personal website that I mentioned, which has as its topic
efficiency (material that is not overtly spiritual), or the apologetics
portions of the ministry idea I put forward?
Sorry to be dense, I'm just not sure of the referent, and this is what
confused me.
In Christ,
Response #3:
I'm referring to the contemplated exclusively apologetic site. The
personal website is just one way of you advancing your main ministry (as
I had understood it) of teaching the Bible.
Being opposed is half of the issue – and no small part of what someone
considering this sort of ministry ought to consider. What I find equally
difficult is the prospect of very little response – of the type we want.
Israel's prophets were doing their job by presenting truth to a people
determined to reject it – and who were thus tried and judged on the
basis of that rejection. Personally, I would rather teach the truth to
believers who are willing to accept it (at least partially). Clearly,
the latter does them some good, whereas the former situation only
confirms rebels in their rebellion. Now if that is what the Lord calls
you to (as He did, e.g., Jeremiah or pretty much any of the other
prophets), then well and good: that's your job; do your job. But it's
hard for me to see both ministries being laid on one person at the same
time since they are both heavy enough burdens in and of themselves. So I
would want to be sure in my own case of the direction I was to go before
I got too far down the road.
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #4:
Hey Dr. Luginbill. Long email, lol, so please pardon me for taking up a
good bit of your time.
So I've been thinking about the fact that the gospel is all about faith
and not knowledge, like you mentioned to me a while back (same thing
with spiritual growth). It made me think of many tribes and nations
earlier in history before the arrival of white settlers. The Native
Americans fascinate me the most and I have a lot of respect for them
simply because they had a very great respect for nature and being good
stewards of the earth by properly using and preserving what they had
(land, flora and fauna). I also believe that some of the first nations
peoples were saved believers (even before the arrival of Europeans)
because they often refer to God as "The Great Spirit" and "The Creator."
What are your thoughts on this?
It's very unfortunate that many Catholic and Protestant settlers
misunderstood this to mean something demonic (or that they were
referring to some other "god."). But many Native American rituals and
beliefs have been highly misunderstood when all this time many of them
were actually pointing to God! Sad that they were ridiculed for that,
but our history books have done the First Nations peoples a great
disservice by failing to mention much of their history from their
perspective. There is much (and still is) we could have learned from
them.
There have been a good handful of so-called "prophecies" from Native
Americans and some of them actually seem legit to be honest. I read this
paper in the attachment I'm leaving below. Although some of it is
undoubtedly false , some of it does sound genuine and even biblical. It
sounds like some of their "prophecies" pertain to the tribulation and
the millennium (although they must have gotten this information from
somewhere, possibly through visions as one possible explanation) . I'm
really really curious to see what you think (with an open and honest
mind of course).
The paper is long, but worth the read from start to finish entirely. I
know you're really busy but if you have the time (no rush of course and
take all the time you need), you wouldn't mind reading through it and
telling me what you think would you? No pressure and of course you don't
have to as you already know.
One more thing. I had a discussion with __ back in January of this year
and she mentioned to me that God doesn't care about knowledge. To an
extent that is true but it depends what you mean by that (she never
explained any further what she meant). I mentioned the truth of
epignosis to her (true complete knowledge that is applied, not just
sitting in the head). I assumed she believed that God cares all about
faith (whether it is growing or not) and our relationship to Him. That
is true, but the problem is that many people may take this to mean that
since the Christian life is all about faith that the truth isn't
important and that you and I shouldn't be making such a big deal about
all these doctrines. Ok, so my answer is that the Christian life is all
about faith but our faith needs the TRUTH in order to grow. But then
they may argue what you told me and ___ a few months ago- most of the
old testament believers didn't know all that we know now, let alone have
the completed canon of Scripture. __ indirectly used this argument
against me just because I was telling her the truth is important. How do
you motivate people to get zealous for the truth if that is where their
reasoning comes from? What they say is true, but the truth still matters
and we are to seek it out.
Like as an example to the above- I mentioned to __ that there is no pre-trib
rapture and that believers alive at that time would go through the
tribulation and that there would be a great apostasy. The conversation
bothered her and she said she didn't want to discuss it anymore. She
then went and told one of her friends about it and part of her friend's
response was that we don't have to get our minds wrapped around stuff
like that. That can be true depending on what you mean by it since we
shouldn't be sitting around focusing on and worrying about the fact that
we are going to go through the tribulation and that salvation can be
lost. However, we still need to get a teaching like that right because
getting it wrong can and will eventually prove detrimental to the faith
of many. No one should believe a lie or think "oh well, it doesn't
matter and I don't care." It's still important.
In His grace and power,
Response #4:
Well, the ancient Greeks called Zeus similar things. But of pagan religion, Paul said . . .
"Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them. In the past, he let all nations go their own way."
Acts 14:15-16 NIV
"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."
Acts 17:30 NIV
If we make a "cut out" for Native Americans, how could we fail to do so for every pagan nation since the human family split up after the tower of Babel? Seems to me whatever interpretation we adopt, it has to be the same for all. Of Jesus Christ, Peter said . . .
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."
Acts 4:12 NIV
Did (do) pagans believe in God? Even the demons know that God is real, but that doesn't prevent their condemnation (Jas.2:19). And what about unbelieving Jews – unbelieving, that is, in terms of accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior. Here is a case of people who are really and truly worshiping the one, true God and Father of us all – but what does scripture say about this sort of Christ-less "dedication"?
For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge (epignosis = truth believed).
Romans 10:2 NIV
Or what about individuals of whom scripture testifies that not only were they worshiping the one, true God but were doing so with purity of heart, seeking the truth and desiring salvation?
". . . All the prophets testify about him [i.e., Jesus Christ] that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
Acts 10:-43-44 NIV
BUT Cornelius and company still had to hear the gospel in order to believe it and be saved.
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Romans 10:14-15 NIV
The importance of evangelism could not be made more clear.
What can we say then about "good people" who never heard the Word so as
to be saved? We can certainly affirm that God knew everything when He
ordained creation and that all that happens only could have done so
because He so ordained it. We know that He wants all to be saved
(1Tim.2:5). We know that Jesus died for all (2Cor.5:14-15). We know that
He has written the essential message about His existence and goodness in
broad strokes throughout His creation and in our hearts (Ps.19:1-6;
Eccl.3:11; Rom.1:18-21). And we can affirm with the testimony of our own
lives His perfect mercy and His perfect faithfulness.
So if someone was not saved, heaven forbid we attribute that to God!
Equally problematic, however, is to assume or teach that salvation is
something other than what it actually is, namely, accepting God's
Substitute for our sins "by grace through faith", following Him
thereafter faithfully to the end (Eph.2:8-9).
Many Native Americans have been saved, are saved, and will be saved. If
we are contorting ourselves over the past, it is fair to note that there
is much we don't know about it and can't know. Were there perhaps instances
of evangelism about which we know nothing historically? There certainly
must have been. Could God communicate directly to someone the necessary
truth to be saved? He certainly has done that many times in the Bible.
Was it possible that some who were willing but had no opportunity were
led or forced to travel to some place where the truth was available? We
know of many instances of this. And of course anyone in any culture,
place or time who died before becoming accountable was/is saved. Is it
possible that God took those who would be willing home early so that
they might be saved? I believe so.
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."
Revelation 5:9 NIV
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Revelation 7:9 NIV
I think this issue is crystal clear, so apologies for not reading your
attachment (feel free to ask any particular question about it); tomorrow
is posting and Monday is the first day of the new semester and it has
been a busy summer for reasons I won't get into on top of all that.
On your other question, knowledge is of no use unless it is true and
believed. Similarly, faith is of no use unless it is placed in the
actual truth. When it is, the Spirit makes it real to us in our hearts
and empowers it. Lots of unbelievers say "I have faith" or "my faith is
so important to me". When I hear such things I always think, "faith in
what or in whom?" If faith is not in the truth, starting with Him who is
the truth, that faith is meaningless, just as knowledge is meaningless
even if it is knowledge of the truth so long as that truth is not
believed.
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 NIV
Abraham is "the father of us all" in regards to faith (Rom.4:16), and
the premier example of one exercising that faith in a powerful way
(Gen.22:1-18; Heb.11:17-19 ); Jas.2:21-23). And Abraham was given less
in terms of scripture than anyone from Moses onward. But God did give
him plenty of truth – and has always done so for all others who were
willing to believe it. It is true that in the Old Testament we see
positive believers using a great deal of faith on a considerably smaller
fund of knowledge compared to what we have – and some of them did
wonderfully well. It is actually sad by comparison that believers today
who have so much in the completed Bible, and plenty of good teaching
around as well, in general are much less interested in believing the
truth and living by it – even though we also have the Holy Spirit
indwelling us permanently which even Abraham did not have.
"How do you motivate people to get zealous for the truth if that is
where their reasoning comes from?" Answer: people are responsible
for motivating themselves. That is what having the free will image of
God is all about.
"What they say is true, but the truth still matters and we are to
seek it out." As to the first part, I don't see that at all; as to
the second part, you are right that every single bit of truth in
scripture no matter how tiny it may seem is an important part of the
whole. If you take a seemingly insignificant beam out of a building,
take care that you have not undermined the integrity of the whole.
Instead of being bothered by the truth we ought to be joyously embracing
it.
You can't convince people of these things. And as a pastor-teacher, that
is not your job. Answering questions in a way that puts doubts to rest
and resolves confusion, yes. But battering one's head against ingrained,
hard-hearted unbelief or disbelief or lukewarmness is not our job
(that's apologetics). God is the only One in the end who can turn people
around. And when we are talking about family and friends, it is always a
mistake to think that piercing truth presented with absolute clarity
will make a dent: they know us and have seen our "feet of clay" and are
predisposed to reject anything they hear from us that they find
"uncomfortable". It doesn't mean we can't keep trying, but we have to
recognize that such cases usually take divine intervention.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #5:
Thanks for your response Dr. Luginbill. A lot of questions this time
around (pardon me for another big email; there are a lot here). I know
its posting day so you can ignore this email for as long as you need to,
of course.
I wasn't clear enough throughout much of my email to you so there are a
few possible misunderstandings I need to clear up. Not the first time I
haven't been clear enough so pardon me for that.
Re: "If we make a "cut out" for Native Americans, how could we fail to
do so for every pagan nation since the human family split up after the
tower of Babel? Seems to me whatever interpretation we adopt, it has to
be the same for all"
I know. I'm just using them as an example. Everyone knows about and
believes in God (most only in His existence but not in true saving
faith). Different cultures have different names and descriptions for
Him. The First Nations peoples of North and South America are just one
of which in particular that I'm familiar with (I've discussed them with
other people as well), so I referenced them.
I too got the same impression from ___ when she brought this up in times
past. I would think to myself something along the lines of, "It isn't
like Native Americans are unique in this area because everyone believes
in God and just about every tribe, nation and culture have some way to
describe Him." So I completely agree with and understand you there.
Just to clarify, I don't believe that some Native Americans were and are
saved just because they believed in the existence of God, i.e. "The
Great Spirit" and "The Creator and Maker of all Life" as they call Him.
The demons too believe and yet tremble. You HAVE to believe in Jesus
Christ. Like the rest of humanity worldwide, most of these people were
never believers, so I totally agree with you referencing Romans 10:2.
However, I do believe there have been for many thousands of years some
Native peoples in foreign lands who have believed in Jesus Christ and
have been and are saved (the Native Americans as but one example) before
the arrival of Europeans and missionaries. I don't believe Romans
10:14-15 is saying that God can't bring the gospel message to pagan
nations any other way other than through a missionary, or, as you
mentioned, that person traveling far away to hear the message. I do
think God could reveal the message in other ways (visions and dreams are
possibly two of which Scripture is silent on whether they still occur
today). Seeing how God is sovereign, I believe there are many
possibilities. Do you agree with that?
For example, the Israelites were meant to be a witness to the "world."
Yet God planned for them to settle in the promised land. What about
"missionaries" then to other continents and parts of the earth? I
believe (seeing as how the OT saints didn't know many of the details
about Jesus Christ "the coming Savior" that we know today because it's
all about faith and not knowledge) that God revealed the gospel to a
very small number of people worldwide for their salvation (individuals
who actually wanted to be saved). And I believe He still does so today
even if not in the same impressive ways we see from the Old Testament.
To use the Native Americans as an example again, Columbus didn't
discover America until 1492. He was Catholic. You then have Leif
Erickson from earlier in time. However, to be honest, I don't think we
really know who the first European was to set foot in either North or
South America. As you rightly said, there is much we do not and cannot
know. My point is that I do believe that at least some Native peoples
(some as in a small minority among a majority) really did want to be
saved and did in fact believe in Jesus Christ long before any
missionaries ever set foot on their land. I do think it reasonable to at
least acknowledge that possibility. Otherwise, I can't accept that a
small handful among thousands or even millions only got interested and
thus saved until the arrival of European missionaries after thousands of
years of living in their own land. I understand Romans 10:14-15, but I
don't see that verse as giving a universal limitation to how God does
actually bring the gospel to all people even if that is perhaps the
primary way He does so (Matthew 28:19).
So with the above being said...
Could God communicate directly to someone the necessary truth to be
saved?
Obviously He could, but do you believe it possible that He still does so
occasionally today (or any other way of revealing the gospel to people
other than through missionaries or travel?) I do believe it's possible
that God does speak to both believers and unbelievers through dreams and
visions, as rare as they may be. Note, I said possible, not probable.
I'm not taking a firm stand but just keeping an open mind.
Here is something else. Do you think many (for example) Native Americans
(and this goes for many other pagan nations) may have heard a lot of
biblical truth before they settled in America and carried it with them
to their land only to pass it down to the next generations and so forth
(maybe starting with the tower of Babel and going on from there)? This
would mean the message was still "heard" (Romans 10:14-15) like in the
game of telephone and passed down (the message being distorted perhaps
in some or most cases but not in all). So you could say that evangelism
has been occurring ever since the beginning of time (you mentioned the
importance of evangelism). Genesis 4:26 says that people in general
began to call upon the name of the Lord (those in the line of Seth). Do
you think all of this is a viable possibility?
I think this issue is crystal clear, so apologies for not reading your
attachment (feel free to ask any particular question about it); tomorrow
is posting and Monday is the first day of the new semester and it has
been a busy summer for reasons I won't get into on top of all that.
No need to apologize, the paper is actually quite long. No worries and
no need for you to read it. The questions I have asked in this email
touch on everything I'm curious to hear your opinions on.
Re: "knowledge is of no use unless it is true and believed."
Agreed and understood. That is what I believe and teach. Just wanted to
make sure I wasn't missing anything. It's tough living in this day and
age of Laodicea and being a teacher, I just want to make sure I'm not
off in any very important and major areas. No one is right about
everything, but we strive to get as much right as we can as we both
know.
Re: "Abraham", Yes, I also believe we have more advantages than
believers of the past. Although to be fair, it's not like they didn't
have any advantages either. We didn't get to see a lot of the miracles
(the plagues and the parting of the red sea as but a small handful of
examples) and divine appearances, manifestations and theophanies
(assuming I'm using the right word description) et., etc. Yet Jesus said
in John 20:29b, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have
believed."
Re: "What they say is true, but the truth still matters and we are to
seek it out." I think you've misunderstood. What I meant was that God
doesn't care about gnosis alone (knowledge in the head but not
applied). Whether that is what ___ meant I don't know ( I can only hope
she agreed with me). Such believers with knowledge but little
application are only deceiving themselves (James 1:22-25) which is one
of the points I was making to ___.
Re: "You can't convince people of these things." Thanks for the true
advice and assurance. I couldn't agree more with everything you've said
here! Some of what motivated this email is the fact that (to give you an
update with details to come later) I'm moving back to __ and will
(temporarily) be living with my parents to help me save up and get to my
feet before moving out into an apartment. I took a job at a lumber yard
(Monday to Friday only thank goodness) with great opportunities for
advancement both positionally and financially. Anyway, me and ___ were
talking about how I should approach discussing the truth with some of my
family members because that will unavoidably and inevitably happen at
times. I just need to make sure I stand my ground and not give way. I
need to learn to be more assertive. Not a bad thing, but I'm not a
confrontational person. I just want to be able to speak the truth in
love to people without too much confrontation (inevitable as some will
be), being patronized or swept under the carpet. And you are absolutely
right...family can be the hardest when it comes to this area because
they are less likely to take us seriously. That and I have to
occasionally contend with some relatives and acquaintances of mine who
are in the medical field and (for that reason) occasionally see
themselves as more knowledgeable and superior to me (or at least those
are the vibes I get). I find it hilarious how just because someone
thinks they're an expert in one area (the medical field in this case),
they must be an expert in EVERYTHING, the Bible included even if they
don't have the gift of pastor teacher. High intellect can be a stumbling
block for so many people. It's hard to be friends with individuals who
don't take you seriously, hence I'm not close with people like that.
Talk about being judgmental by looking down on others, especially other
young adults who aren't that much older than me (people in their
thirties). Age is something else I may have to contend with since (I'm
26) 1 Timothy 4:12.
Sorry to vent to you like this but sometimes we need someone to talk to
in this manner. It does help. ___ has had its time in my life (over two
and a half years to date) but it is about to come to an end. I needed to
come down here to live with a like-minded brother in Christ who could
sharpen me as I sharpen him. You could say it was a time of training to
help prepare me to return to my family and minister to those I'm
familiar with (and any other new people I meet). As I told ___, we each
have our own "ground to till," and I believe my "plot of soil" is in
___. In addition to my website, I hope to plug into a church beginning
next Sunday (the 27th), not with the intent to start a house church or
lead a Bible study, but just to meet and casually talk with people about
the truth, be an in-person witness or light among the church (Matthew
5:16), and to expand my ministry despite the fact that Laodicea makes
the time we live in a bit unfavorable (2 Timothy 4:2-5). I feel led to
minister on both the online and in-person front. There have been and are
many believers who have and do this. We are all called to different
things.
Halfway done with my introduction to the sermon on the mount! Not sure
when I'm gonna be finished with it. I have a lot of other ideas of
things to write on. Just wish I had more time.
Thanks for reading this long email and considering it. Happily await
your response whenever you have the time to give one.
In His grace and power,
Response #5:
No worries. I assumed that you were asking questions rather than stating
positions. This is just the way I answer things sometimes.
Re: "Seeing how God is sovereign, I believe there are many
possibilities. Do you agree with that?" I can't rule it out.
However, while it is certainly possible that "there have been for many
thousands of years some Native peoples in foreign lands who have
believed in Jesus Christ and have been and are saved", I wouldn't want
to state it as a strong affirmative; it's merely a possibility. God
knows; we do not. And here is something to consider about the
sovereignty of God. He puts us all where and when He puts us for good
reasons.
"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us."
Acts 17:26-27 NIV
If a given person was never going to believe no matter even if born to a fundamentalist family in 19th century USA, then why not put him/her instead into a 6th century B.C. nomadic tribe on the steps of Eurasia? Nothing that happens in the plan of God is accidental. I am sure we're going to get a lot of surprises at all the judgments to come, with many whom we had assumed saved not saved and vice versa.
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Romans 10:14-15 NIV
Again, this passage seems to me to suggest that evangelism is necessary.
It seems to presuppose that we should not count on God using the
extraordinary means He certainly could use to bring the gospel to far
distant places. Somewhere between assuming that we have to "do it all"
on the one hand, and not worrying about evangelism "because God does it
all" on the other is the sweet spot of following His will and doing our
part even as we know that everything is in His control. That is true of
most everything in the Christian life.
Re: "Otherwise, I can't accept that a small handful among thousands
or even millions only got interested and thus saved until the arrival of
European missionaries after thousands of years of living in their own
land." Again, God could have done so. But I believe it's dangerous
to suggest to anyone that He did so when we don't know. As mentioned
above, He was certainly capable of moving people one at a time we don't
know about from or to – and most importantly of never putting the
positive in a negative place in the first place. Also, taking them home
early, before the age of accountability, guarantees salvation. All these
sorts of questions that tend to vex people will be answered at the
judgments. Our job now is to trust the Lord that He was never ever
unfair to anyone, that He never let a single person be lost for want of
the truth – and that He never withheld the truth from someone who truly
wanted it, revealing everything to the positive at the right time in the
right way, acting and comporting Himself to every single human being
throughout history with mercy, compassion and absolute integrity. He is
God. He could not do otherwise. And Jesus died for all.
Re: "do you believe it possible that He still does so occasionally
today" Again, while we can speculate, I don't think this is
something we should teach as happening since we don't know that it is.
The world today is a great deal different than that of, e.g., 600 B.C.
Is there any place in the world where the gospel hasn't gotten in one
way or another? They wear Michael Jackson t-shirts in Nepal. Possibly
there are some who are completely un-reached. No doubt there are many
who are so under-served as to despair of how they might be saved without
some intervention.
We know that nothing is impossible for God. And we know that He cannot
be unjust. And if we are wise we recognize also that our knowledge of
what happened / is happening is really very limited – how much less our
knowledge about the specifics of His plan for each individual. And God
has a plan for every single individual. So take any hypothetical person
in any hypothetical time and place, understand that Christ died for
their sins, that the Father wants them to be saved, that nothing is
impossible for the Holy Spirit . . . and then it just becomes a question
of two factors: 1) what did/does the person actually want? 2) what
did/is God actually doing about it? For most actual scenarios, we have
anywhere between very little information to absolutely no information.
So it would be imprudent to lean too heavily on any speculation we might
lob up for an individual case – how much more so in making
generalizations about such hypotheticals?
Re: "Here is something else." Here we have no idea of the
situation at the entry point (i.e., the composition of the group(s) who
crossed into this hemisphere) or their history prior to that event. We
do have some idea of the exit point, that is, history of what they
believed once making contact with Europeans . . . and here there is no
trace of anything that might lead to saving faith before that event.
Re: "We didn't get to see a lot of the miracles" That is true,
but that is overrated in my view. Many people long for an epiphany, but
the truth is more powerful:
(16) For I did not follow concocted tales in making known to you the power and the coming return of our Lord, Jesus Christ, but was an eyewitness to His majesty. (17) For when He had received honor and glory from God the Father, these words sounded forth to Him from God's majestic glory: "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased." (18) And these words I myself heard as they were delivered from heaven, for I was with Him on the holy mountain (cf. Matt.17:1-8). (19) Yet I consider the prophetically inspired Word (i.e. the Bible) even more reliable (i.e., than what I saw with my own eyes). You too would do well to pay the closest attention to this [prophetically inspired Word], just as to a lamp shining in a dark place (cf. Ps.119:105), until the day dawns, and the Morning Star rises (i.e. the Living Word, Jesus Christ, returns), (20) pondering in your hearts this principle of prime importance: no single verse of prophetically inspired scripture has ever come into being as a result of personal reflection. (21) For true prophecy has never occurred by human will, but only when holy men of God have spoken under the direction and agency of the Holy Spirit.
2nd Peter 1:16-21
Peter tells us explicitly that what we have in the Bible is "more reliable" than what our own eyes have seen and our own ears have heard – even in the case of one of the most amazing visions recorded in the Bible. And this is scripture so that the Spirit agrees, obviously.
(1) For I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, about the fact that our [spiritual] forefathers (i.e., the Exodus generation) were all under the cloud (i.e., protected by the Glory). (2) And all of them were baptized into Moses (i.e., closely identified with him) in both the case of the cloud and of the sea (i.e., received the same protection and deliverance as he did). (3) And all of them ate spiritual food (i.e., divinely provided manna). (4) And all of them drank the same spiritual drink (i.e., divinely provided water). For all of them drank from the spiritual[ly significant] Rock which followed them – for that Rock was Christ. (5) But God was not pleased with most of them and their bones were strewn about in the desert as a result.
1st Corinthians 10:1-5
Beyond all argument, the exodus generation was treated to more and more
amazing displays of God's power than any other group – but it didn't
help them a bit.
Re: "What I meant was that God doesn't care about gnosis alone"
OK – sorry for the misunderstanding.
Re: "I find it hilarious how just because someone thinks they're an
expert in one area (the medical field in this case), they must be an
expert in EVERYTHING" LOL, but that is VERY common. I have seen it a
lot in my life. Arrogance is the natural human default, and it is very
easily stoked. Humility – at least a smidgen of it – is necessary to
recognize that God is the one on the throne, not us.
Two and a half years! Time does fly. I'm very happy that you and ___ had
this time together. There is always a time to move on. I'll be praying
for you both for your ministries and all other things (as has been my
practice).
Safe travels, my friend.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #6:
Thanks! Well and graciously said. I actually agree with everything
you've written here.
"But I believe it's dangerous to suggest to anyone that He did so when
we don't know."
True and fair enough. With that, I take back what I said.
Come to think of it, it isn't as if Europe didn't have to be evangelized
like everybody else in the world (the apostles ministering in Greece,
Italy and perhaps Spain with the result that the gospel eventually
spread throughout Europe). Just about every other place outside of
Israel and parts of the Middle East was once very primitive and
different from what they are today, kind of like what you said. Everyone
got "their turn" so to speak. And like you've often said, those who
never got saved never wanted to be in the first place. Correct me if I'm
wrong, but just about every country, tribe and nation (European ones
included) have been pagans at some point in time. Of course, we know
that there is nothing new under the sun and that most still reject
Christ just as they have done for all of human history.
Thanks for the response!
Your brother in Christ,
Response #6:
That's a great point. It would be hard to posit that of all those
Germanic and Celtic and Slavic peoples who ranged across northern Europe
for centuries before and even for some centuries after Christ, any of
them had any contact with the gospel – at least through means of which
we are historically aware. But there could have exceptions. If a person
had blond hair in ancient Greece or even mostly in Roman times, it was
assumed that he/she was a slave (from one of those groups mentioned or
the Scythians, etc.). Even the Romans who knew about the Jews (there
were synagogues in Rome for some time before Christ), didn't actually
get evangelized until the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost. So you are
correct that it would seem to be the case that the vast majority of the
world's population before that time didn't have the gospel presented to
them except in exceptional cases. What is really striking is that today,
with the gospel available nearly everywhere (and hard to entirely avoid
hearing), of the world's eight billion or so people how few of them are
saved. Stats say that 2.5 billion are "Christians" but we know that most
of those belong to groups which have that name but which contain few
believers. Which goes to show it's not about knowledge in the end: it's
about free will, the willingness to believe in Jesus Christ.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #7:
Hi Doc, I just wanted to make some small talk if you will, but do put
this on your site if it's found useful.
While I know that spiritual matters are more important, I find the
design of life and how such it works with such complexity on so many
levels of size and uniqueness is truly something to behold. A prime
example is the Flagellum (a kind of tail that certain bacteria use to
swim better), which I consider to be one of God's greatest masterpieces
in terms of biological design. It's a fully working biological motor
that puts any engine or motor man has created to utter shame, all at a
size smaller than any artificial motor can be made currently! I say this
because the Darwinists are basically stumped by it in terms of their
theory of macroevolution, despite attempts to explain how it could have
formed evolution wise.
This property of the Flagellum as well as things like the Bombardier
Beetle's chemical mixing chamber (dubbed Irreducible Complexity) has
been a thorn in macroevolution's side for decades now, and has even led
many Darwin worshippers to abandon the theory and even find the Lord.
Natural Revelation is found in places not many expect it seems.
Response #7:
It's an excellent point and set of observations. And I think this could
be said about virtually anything in plant or animal kingdoms. Plants
actually have an intelligence of sorts most people don't realize (and
it's currently becoming a focus of research). Just for example, why/how
do seeds sprout upwards? How do they "know" which way is up? How/why do
they turn towards the sun? How do they know which way to turn and how do
they do it without a brain? Short of anthropomorphizing them, it's still
pretty mysterious. Definitely not something that would ever happen by
accident.
So yes, it is VERY true, that God's "invisible attributes are clearly
seen, being understood by the things that are made" (Rom.1:20 NKJV; cf.
Ps.19:1-6), but by and large the human race willfully blinds itself to
these obvious truths so that "their foolish hearts were darkened" and
"Professing to be wise, they became fools" (Rom.1:21-22 NKJV).
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #8:
Hello Bob,
I am going through a very personal trial right now my friend.
Judging by your prayer list and also the Book of Job, it is inevitable
that at some point the tribulations becomes very personal indeed in that
it is either against our bodies or our minds.
The enemy knows that I have had a long history of depression and trauma
due to my upbringing. I think I remember you once writing that many
brethren in Christ write to you of depression. If so then I am in good
company though I wish it wasn't the case of their struggling. Having
said that, I know that even our suffering is overseen by the Lord and is
never needless but has a specific purpose whether it is for our
chastisement or for us to grow in faith. It is never to crush us but to
test and refine our faith and for the opportunity for the Lord to show
that He is indeed faithful.
Maybe it is a compliment and a sign that I am indeed maturing that the
Lord has allowed me to be tested in an area where I have been so
vulnerable and despairing in the past. Depression is where the enemy
really gets his claws into me. It is incredible to think though that a
response in faith and prayer and a patience waiting on His deliverance
would mean that I never need fear depression again! That is a wondrous
proposition!
There is something else that I have not let go of, [omitted]
In Jesus,
Response #8:
It's a mark of progress that you are "all over" what is happening and
handling it very well. In my experience and observation, the evil one
keeps using the same tactics as long as they work. If they stop working,
such testing tends to get relegated to "probing attacks" once in a while
just to check if the defenses are still up and in place.
I don't know what to tell you about ___. ___ is obviously and
understandably important to you, but this relationship has cost you,
both in terms of worry and concern for __ and also in terms of abuse
leveled at yourself. One thing I think I can say for certain is that YOU
have no ability to change __ or send __ in the right direction or rescue
__. You can pray. That would seem to be about it. But that is a great
deal, after all. In any case, no one changes in any important way
through reasoning and persuasion – unless said person is given to wisdom
through the Word.
The way of an ignorant fool is right in his own eyes,
But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.
Proverbs 12:15 LSB
Humble people who are following the Lord might be persuadable. Everyone else is the devil's slave.
A slave will not be corrected by words alone;
For though he understands, there will be no answer.
Proverbs 29:19 LSB
I'm keeping you and the situation in my prayers, my friend.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #9:
Thanks Bob!
Yes I agree to put this on the back burner for now. I will let you into
a little secret which is no secret at all! I pick up on these
relationships again with the express interest in evangelising or
witnessing to them when I can. Not to say that I don't care for them
apart from that and am just trying to do the usual evangelical 'soul
winning'. I genuinely care for the people around me but I have to be
honest that I want salvation for them and that is the main impetus of my
keeping in touch.
At some points, as you already know, I have had to walk away from people
I care about as they are as devout in their error as I am about the
truth! With some people there will be some wrestling with them until it
is clear they want to evangelise me to join the enemy with as much
fervour as I wish them to be saved. At that point I have to walk away
but keep them in prayer. This has become the norm for me over the years
to the point that my social circle could fit on a postage stamp. I have
to let go and leave it with God. I sometimes get exasperated and feel
exhausted by it but then I realise that if they put their foot down in
error using their free will, if they repeatedly refuse Christ and wise
counsel, then what?
I would like to say that wild horses couldn't drag me away from Jesus
but I realise that could be said to be the same for others in their
devotion to the devil. Are they really deceived? Or are they kidding
themselves. 'Being deceived' won't fly at the judgement seat as an
excuse will it. There has to be a part of them deep down that knows
Jesus is the truth but rejects Him anyway.
I once talked with __ about my new found faith and he mocked me and the
Bible and talked about silly Sunday school but then he said "The Koran!
Now THERE'S a book worth reading!"
I was disgusted. What criteria could he possibly use to suggest the
Koran was superior. Why should a person mock me and my faith but think
the 'Downward Dog' was THE path to ultimate spiritual wisdom.
I am losing my patience with these unbelievers. My gifts are not in
evangelism it seems though I do witness the hope I have in Christ when I
can.
I am royally sick of Yoga, meditation and the New Age. If I never hear
of anything of it ever again it will be too soon. It has been pushed so
hard in the UK that even doctors and the NHS push it as through it were
as natural as taking a bath or vitamin C. I could scream but I won't.
I will take your sane and sage advice to stay in my lane and keep my
head down and push forward in faith. You can't force a person to believe
after all. I think I have finally realised that my time and energies are
better spent elsewhere and to give evangelising my nearest and dearest a
bit of a rest while I focus on what the Lord actually wants me to do.
Amen!
In Jesus,
Response #9:
My pleasure.
It is good of you to be doing what you can to share the truth.
"Friendship evangelism" is a long and a hard road, and not for everyone,
that is for sure. It takes so much time and energy . . . and patience .
. . that it is often going to remove any possibility of ministering
otherwise, at least for those of us who have to think about other things
(like making a living). You are to be commended for trying, but don't
beat yourself up for lack of obvious results. The Lord knows your heart,
and nothing is impossible for Him.
*Thanks for your prayers: I had an article accepted for publication
today (so they won't be able to fire me immediately, lol).
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #10:
Thanks Bob,
Yes I do rally much quicker now and I do see that my faith is much
stronger.
I have come to a conclusion. I am not going to go out of my way to give
unsolicited help or advice to unbelievers anymore. If they ask for my
help, I will give it to them. I will be available when they need me.
Like you said before, I won't expect any gratitude back from them and I
will never again leave myself depending on an unbeliever for anything. I
have been labouring over rocky ground now for a very long time.
You see, the first people I wanted to minister to was my nearest and
dearest. It makes sense that I don't want the people I love the most
going to hell. I don't have an evangelical ministry though, that is not
my gift. Like you said, also the witness of the life can only be of use
near fertile ground. That last point has really bowled me over. I never
thought of that one! Like I said, maybe my efforts have all been in
vain! If I am not doing what the Lord wants me to, then it won't be in
the Spirit and it won't be rewarded and if it doesn't produce anything,
what is the point? I am then, labouring in vain over people who are not
interested at all!
My ministry is for people who already believe but who haven't
spiritually grown enough to detect false teachings or for those in cults
and abusive relationships who are ready to hear the good news. That is
what I am supposed to do and those are the people I am supposed to help.
I don't have any ill will or evil for all these people around me, I want
to be a blessing to them and to show them the love God gives me in a cup
that overflows. I have to realise though and be humble about my efforts
and when they are not fruitful. I will still keep them in prayer and
will still continue to witness my life to them and help them if they
need it but I am going to desist from chasing them now because I am
being lead into the wrong direction, a direction of disappointment and
apparent futility.
I think the Lord has hardened their hearts against me at times so that I
realise I am heading in the wrong direction and doing the things I want
to do, not the work He wants me to do. It has taken me ages to realise
this and no doubt the devil was very happy that the guilt I had over
loved ones potentially perishing was probably the main reason for me
doing this.
God hardens hearts for really good reasons.
It reminds me of Joseph saying
Genesis 50:20
But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in
order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
It was my family and __ all hardening their hearts towards me at the
same time which brought me to a painful crisis which led to my
salvation. It was extremely painful at the time but I am very grateful
to God for it now as a wonderful good came out of what was meant for
evil, was meant to destroy me. Satan thought it would destroy me but he
overplayed his hand and went in too hard. It broke me and brought me to
faith. You see the seed was already there and when I was broken, it was
the hardened ground of my heart being broken enough to let that seed
sprout up and through the hardened ground above through that crack of
brokenness. Praise the Lord! He is very good!
I realise this is how it must be for many if not all. They need to be
broken to accept that seed of faith, of the Word, the Good News. It
isn't me they are rejecting, it is the Lord. I do fear that I have been
casting pearls before swine here.
I have to move on from this futility Bob. My work is better served
elsewhere in ministry around people who will be glad and blessed by my
labouring. We have so little time left that I must move on now. I tried
and the Lord knows I love these people and want them to be saved but
maybe they will never hear it from me. Maybe someone else will plant and
water for them, not me. At times it seems impossible for my loved ones
to come to faith but nothing is impossible for Him.
P.s. please publish this one my friend. I hope it will minister to
others who have gone through the same thing.)
p.p.s.
I have also finally learned that you can't talk to unbelievers about the
deeper things of God. I know that should be a 'no brainer' but I have
had to learn this though experience. I realise that my family see my
faith and my spiritual growth and plans for ministry as folly. When I
tell them that the things of this world are folly, they CANNOT hear me.
John 3:9-12
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus
answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not
these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know,
and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have
told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I
tell you of heavenly things?
When I express my joy of Jesus Christ of being part of His bride and my
excited expectation of the Bridegroom to come for us, they cannot take
joy from this. When I lament the state of the world, they can lament but
for a moment but then they urgently try to seek any joy they can eke out
of this fallen world. They HAVE to do this as it is all they have!
Matthew 11:17
And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have
mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
There is a supernatural wall between me and my unbelieving loved ones. I
realise that you can ONLY know these things to be true through faith
through the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 16:17
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not
revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
So yes there is a veil over the Word to an unbeliever that is removed
through Christ. This is a supernatural veil that hides the truth of the
Gospel to the unbeliever. That is the veil symbolised in the Holy of
Holies to stop the sinner from being in the presence of God. Faith in
Jesus, means we are covered by His blood (His atoning work) so then we
have direct access to God and can boldly approach the throne of grace!
Amen!
I am so grateful that I truly understand this now and believe it to be
true! Amen!
In Him,
Response #10:
I'm happy to post these two latest, if that is fine with you (names redacted of
course).
I don't know of any believers who don't have some family and friends who are not
believers or otherwise spiritually conflicted for whom they are concerned. We do
what we can, but we can't expend all of our energy on those who are not willing
to be helped. At least it's not wise. We do what we can as long as it is prudent
and then we move on. As the "preacher" says: "To every thing there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven" . . . "a time to keep, and a time
to cast away" (Eccl.3:1 & 6 KJV).
Unbelievers can only receive the truth the Spirit makes clear to them and the
Spirit only makes gospel truth clear to unbelievers. Not that they cannot
understand doctrine intellectually – but it can't become epignosis in
their hearts. Faith in Christ must come first. Which is why Paul is given to
say, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1Cor.1:18 NKJV).
It will always be incomprehensible to us believers, at least on some level, why
it is that unbelievers remain so hardened against the truth – in the face of
sin, death and inevitable judgment – when Christ has already paid for their
salvation. But they do. The vast majority. I praise God for you and all my
brothers and sisters in Him who "did not love their lives [in this world] unto
death" (Rev.12:11).
Keeping you in my prayers, my friend. Please take care of yourself.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #11:
Hello Bob,
I have a question for you,
Paul seems to contrast “faith IN Christ” and “faith OF Christ”, I
understand the former to be our action and will, and the latter to
indicate that faith is from Him…or perhaps “faith OF Christ” can also
generally mean faith pertaining to Christ, meaning the true faith.
But this also led me to ponder whether Jesus had faith in the Father
while on earth, and if our faith in Him is of that faith, if indeed He
had faith?
I would appreciate your understanding on this.
Thank you,
In Jesus.
Response #11:
These are just synonymous ways of saying the same exact thing. For
example, in the same epistle, Galatians 2:16 has "faith of
Christ" while Galatians 3:26 has "faith in Christ". In
both instances it is a case of a verbal noun (pistis, faith) with
an essential object of its action: Christ is the object of our faith,
whether in or of.
What it most definitely does not mean is that the faith is
"from Him" – that would be a subjective, not an objective genitive, and
this idea never occurs in scripture. Often people do get Ephesians 2:8
completely mixed up, but that is strange because in the Greek it is very
clear that salvation is the gift because the "this" is
neuter whereas it would be feminine if the "this" were referring instead
to faith since pistis is feminine. Salvation is God's gift; we
receive it by appropriating it through faith. That is what the entire
plan of God is all about: our free will in the image of God responding
to His truth . . . or refusing to do so. Much more about all this at the
link in BB 4B: Soteriology.
In any case, these are not common expressions. Much more often
throughout the New Testament we find this idea of faith in Christ
expressed with an attributive participle, "believing [person(s)]" =
believer(s), those who believe in Jesus Christ.
As to our Lord's humanity and His walk on this earth, we know that it
was 100% perfect in every way. If He had stumbled just once in even the
smallest way, He would have been disqualified as our sin-bearer. His
faith was perfect, as was His love and His hope and every other virtue
we Christians are called upon to manifest . . . by means of a perfect
response to the Spirit from the moment of His birth.
And the Spirit of the Lord will rest upon Him (i.e., the Messiah), the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, and the fear of the Lord will be to Him a sweet fragrance.
Isaiah 11:2-3a
Hope you are doing well, my friend. Keeping you in my prayers.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #12:
Hello Bob,
I will digest this, Eph. 2:8 and Rom. 12:3 always made me understand
faith to be given by God, I've understood it to be something produced by
His Word and the Holy Spirit, and on our end we have a choice to open up
to it and accept/exercise it.
But just to be clear, you are saying Jesus did have faith in the Father?
Since I'm not aware the Scriptures explicitly say that I wasn't sure if
that idea is off since Jesus being God doesn't need faith, but on the
side of His humanity it seems logical He had it…
Thank you Bob, keeping me in prayer is very much appreciated, perhaps we
will talk more soon God willing, I just wanted to run this by you.
I'm pushing forward by the grace of God, hope you are well also.
In Jesus,
Response #12:
Romans 12:3 is expressing just what I was saying, namely, that all of us are given the capacity to believe as part of the image of God.
. . . inasmuch as God has allotted each [and every] one of us a measure of [our common] faith [in Jesus Christ].
Romans 12:3b
Similarly . . .
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have been allotted a faith of equal value to ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
2nd Peter 1:1
As believers, our faith is "common", one with another, since we all have
used the ability to believe inherent in the image of God to respond to
the gospel so as to become believers; and as in the passage directly
above, our faith is "valuable" for the same reason: it is the means God
gave us to be saved ("by grace through faith"), and we have done so. The
capacity to believe in the case of unbelievers is of no eternal value to
them since they have not used this God-given image of God to respond to
Him.
It is not for no reason that the scripture tells unbelievers "believe!".
They have that capacity, since they have the image of God; they have
that opportunity, since Christ died for all their sins. But whether or
not a person does follow the pleas of scripture and respond in faith to
the gospel message and the ministry of the Spirit is up to them. That is
why we are all here, namely, to decide out eternal futures through
exercising the free will we have been given, "free will faith", as I
call it – and then of course for those who do respond to the Lord to
demonstrate the genuineness of that faith through our perseverance in
faith "firm until the end" (Heb.3:6; 3:14), and also to determine our
rewards based upon the quality and quantity of our decisions to do what
the Lord wants us to do in this life (spiritual growth, progress and
production).
As to our Lord, He told us that we needed to 1) deny ourselves; 2) pick
up our crosses; and 3) follow Him (Matt.16:24; Mk.8:34; Lk.9:23).
Meaning, to choose for Him rather than living for ourselves (repentance);
get moving (salvation); follow through to the end (following His
example: growth, progress, production).
Since Jesus is the example, we are to follow His example of faith. But
what is faith? Faith is choice. Our Lord had to make decisions just as
we do. But with Him, every single expression of His human free will from
the start to the end of His earthly life was one of positive response to
the Father's will (e.g, Is.50:4b; see the link
in BB 4A). As He said in facing the cross and judgment in darkness
for the sins of the world, "not my will but thy will be done" (Lk.22:42;
cf. Matt.26:39; Mk.14:36; Jn.12:27).
Theology, even evangelical theology, is still suffering mightily from
the damage done by Augustine and Roman Catholicism generally (and from
post-Reformation constructs which, as in the case of hyper-Calvinism,
have likewise steered people away from what the Bible actually says).
"Faith" and "grace", etc., have become magic "buzz words" that defy
understanding when one's thinking is trapped in those non-biblical
constructs. Whereas in fact they are meant to be simple and
understandable.
If you were getting your Th.D. in systematic theology then perhaps
wrestling with these things in his way might be of some use. Although I
have to say, given that this field had ceased to produce anything
positive by the mid-19th century, I would see that as basically a waste of
time . . . unless someone first got to the bottom of things through
Ichthys (or a like ministry) and wanted to straighten things out in
Christian academia (good luck with that).
A long way of saying that I think you would be much better off reading
through the Basics Series (and all of the other materials at Ichthys –
or whatever ministry uniquely suits your needs), and doing what my old
mentor always recommended: when you come to something that is "hard to
digest", don't try to eat those "bones"; put them aside and don't let
their presence stop you from eating what you can chew at present.
Because if you stop at every bone and worry about it rather than
believing and accepting what isn't an issue, you'll never get any
spiritual momentum going, momentum which will in time produce a broad
understanding of scripture and its truths so that eventually you come to
see where even the bones "fit in".
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #13:
Dear Brother Bob, hope you are well.
It has been a while since we last connected. Work has been busy
recently, but I had enjoyed our discussions. I realize sometimes the
Greek word has a deeper meaning than the English translation. There is a
verse most of us know but recently I have been wondering what it
means:
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16)
That word "believe" really sticks out to me. The Bible says in James 2
that the demons also believe. What then is the kind of belief that leads
to eternal life?
Thanks Brother Bob,
Response #13:
I don't think I'd say "deeper" just "different": Greek and English are
different languages and all languages work differently; also, there is
nothing like a one for one equivalent of word X in language A with any
word in language B; their meanings may overlap but they will seldom have
identical semantic fields. That's especially true when we are talking
about an ancient vs. a modern language.
As to "believe" (verb) and "faith" (noun), in English these are
different roots, but in Greek it's the same root: pisteuo /
pistis respectively. The other issue we have in the Bible is that
for basic concepts like faith we also cannot ignore the Hebrew,
recognizing that NT writers already had a vocabulary for spiritual terms
going back to the OT, one which was also filtered through the LXX or
Septuagint translation of the Tanakh into Greek.
"Believing" in the Bible is all about trusting. I call it often "free
will faith" because when the Bible is speaking about belief in the truth
it means more than just intellectual appreciation: it means responding
to the truth one is given to understand by accepting it as true and
embracing it with life- and behavior-changing consequences. It does not
mean a glancing appreciation that what is said is true and then
rejecting any notion of response to that truth. The latter is what is
going on in James 2:19 – the demons know that God is God but they do not
respond to Him in allegiance (just the opposite). James is saying that
faith without response to God demonstrated by what we do as a result of
our faith (not works in the sense that the RCs imagine as the examples
of Abraham and Rahab he gives show: their "works" were certainly not
"charity" etc.). If we really do "believe", then why aren't we growing
spiritually, walking ever closer to the Lord, and helping others do the
same? A good question for most Laodicean Christians of our day. No doubt
they would say that they "go to church" (LOL).
Speaking of James, he talks at Jas.1:13-14 about "tempting and
temptation", but the word(s), again, a verb/noun complex from the same
root in Greek (peirao / peira), more often than not mean
"test / testing" (as is the case at 1Cor.10:13). It's not uncommon even
for translations to miss the difference here. We have a hard time as
English speakers with things like this when for us we would use
different words. But the context makes things very clear: if God is the
source, it is a test; if the world/flesh/devil is the source, it is a
temptation.
Here are some links on the issue of faith (the above is just the gist;
I've written a lot about this one):
Wishing you and yours a very merry Christmas, my friend!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #14:
Doc, I have another question:
Where with the Greek of the words or passages involving faith and
salvation do you get the idea of faith being just believing in Christ,
and not anything extra like "turn from sin the best you can", "godly
sorrow for your actions", or works? I would like some assurance the
Gospel I've believed is the true one...
Response #14:
You have a knack for stating things in a way I never state / stated them
for good reason.
You can find what I have written (quite extensively) about salvation in
BB 4B: Soteriology (at the link).
Here is what I read in scripture:
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
John 3:18 NKJV
This seems very clear and unqualified. Adding qualifications to our Lord's words is unwise, in my opinion.
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
John 20:27-29 NKJV
Seems pretty clear what this means. Faith is trust, believing the truth
of what one has been told and, if one really has believed, then
appropriate action will result.
If you want to know more about what faith is, in addition to the link
above please see (in addition to the link above),
Peter
#24: Faith Dynamics.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #15:
Hi Bob,
A couple of questions. In Psalms (16:7, e.g.) the KJV translates "bless
the Lord" where NIV translates "praise." In my English-centric
understanding, the Lord blesses us by giving us something we need --
food, safety, etc. They're isn't much we can give the Lord along those
lines, though I suppose we can give Him what he wants if He wants praise
and thereby bless Him. Is that a correct understanding?
Also, the neighbor I wrote to you about earlier is agonizing over people
suffering from results of the covid shots which, at this point, seems to
have resulted in excess mortality. She has warned people she cares about
to avoid the shot. I've suggested to her that:
If someone pointed a loaded gun at their foot and pulled the trigger,
would you agonize over the destruction and pain or shrug your shoulders
and suggest they think things through next time?
If someone took the injections based on the advice of someone they
trusted, their salvation would not be lost if they were a true believer.
We have been given free choice. They exercised that free choice.
You can't kiss every boo-boo for everyone and make it go away.
I also suggested she sit down, relax, have a glass of wine with a good
cheese and crackers and listen to Beethoven's 6th or Chopin's Nocturnes.
Which probably won't happen.
How do you think I should have handled it? She and I have had these
conversations before and it seems they have had no effect. She seems to
be the consummate earth mother and doesn't want to hear anything to the
contrary.
I pray all is well with you and yours and you're getting along in the
cold. (It gets harder as we age.)
In our Lord,
Response #15:
You are correct. "Bless" equally means "praise", that is to praise and
thank the Lord for the blessings we receive, to pronounce Him "blessed"
because of His great blessings to us. We can't do anything for Him . . .
except to accept His Son as our Lord and then do what Jesus wants from
us: spiritual growth, progress and production.
I wouldn't second guess anyone interacting with another like this, and
it's usually not wise to second guess oneself either. If a person is an
unbeliever ("earth mother"?), then it is good to keep in mind that the
only truth they are capable of receiving (other than the
establishment/law truth of the natural order visible in God's creation
to all who have not hardened their hearts against it) is the gospel of
Jesus Christ.
There are good times and bad times, right times and wrong times to share
Jesus Christ with others. We have to listen to the Spirit and consult
our own good judgment, our "spiritual common sense", to make those
calls. But it is fair to observe that the more we engage on subjects
which are, from the eternal perspective, entirely pointless, the less we
are likely to receive openings on what is important.
Weather not too bad here at the moment. First week of classes starts
tomorrow. Always a bit taxing in the early going.
Hope you are doing well, my friend – wishing you a good "season" this
year: it'll be here before we know it.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #16:
So Doc, I was preparing to witness to my __, and I had a private talk
with her about what she believes in terms of salvation and all that, and
was very anxious because I didn't know what to say, I was certain she
was believing a lie on this regard...
I could have never expected, and praise God eternally, that she turned
out to believe the true Gospel. I thought her all this time to be
unsaved, that there was nothing I could do to get her to listen, but she
seemed to truly care about all the concerns I talked to her about. She
still is of course very worldly in behavior and seems to have no plans
to change that. Please pray for her.
Response #16:
It's great news that ___ is open to the truth and that you are
attempting to guide her to it. I will definitely say a prayer for her.
*It is a fact that unbelievers are often more moved by "the witness of
the life" than by mere words. So the best way to reach her – and anyone
else who knows you – is to grow spiritually. When they see you change
from the inside out (as opposed to slapping legalistic layers on your
behavior from without), they will not be able to deny the power of the
truth.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #17:
Dear Professor
Apologies in advance for the brevity of this message.
Would you help me with the phrase "by faith" and "through faith"? Is
there a difference? I have pasted a quote from
SR4 below.
"This event would yield an exact balance in Christ's Church between
Jews by birth saved by faith and gentiles adopted into the family of God
through their faith when human history terminates."
This distinction is also used in Romans 3: 30 and has always caused a
pause for me.
One day I hope to be able to show you how I am teaching the kids using
the 7 millennial days as a physical chart for the background of the
bible stories we study. It's till a work in progress.
Yours in Christ,
Response #17:
Always great to hear from you!
. . . since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 3:30 NKJV
As Romans 3:30 demonstrates, there is no difference in that passage
since all are saved. However, while "by faith" is not a bad translation
for the first part, in the Greek what we actually have is "from [the
source of] faith", that is, the preposition ek, not an
instrumental dative as translating with "by" suggests. That latter
combination is indeed what is found at Ephesians 2:8, i.e., "by grace
through faith", and in that instance the idea is to make the
instrumentality of grace more direct and powerful than the subordinate
response of faith to that grace. But in Romans 3:30, what we have is two
prepositions (ek/dia = from/through) both of which take
the genitive case, expressing the same idea in a slightly different way.
So rather the giving us divergent approaches, this usage on Paul's part
is meant to show that salvation has always been the same for all people
at all times, whether Jews or gentiles, even though today on account of
the Spirit and the New Testament we have a great deal more information
about it than was the case under the Law.
Good to hear that your schooling of your grandchildren is going well!
Keeping you and them in my daily prayers.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #18:
Thank you. You are always so gracious with your time, thoughts, and
prompt replies. I really appreciate it.
I actually do have another question, and it probably has similar varying
degree answers to it as well. If the angels were created with free will,
and if human kind was created with free will, then would not any infant
or child who has passed away before the age of accountability, plus any
mentally impaired individuals who have passed away never been able to
exercise free will? How does this portion then fold into eternity
without ever having the opportunity to choose God once and for all? Do
we assume then that all that have perished in those categories are only
hearts/seeds He foreknew would choose Him if given the chance? It would
appear that way then to me...
Thank you so much!
In the name of Jesus,
Response #18:
You're always most welcome, my friend.
On the free will question, what you say is certainly true. There are
limits to what we are given to know, and also to what we may be able to
rightly discern through deduction and inference, even when we have a
good grasp on the underlying truth of scripture generally.
On this one, it seems to me that the Lord is certainly capable of
knowing – and in fact could not NOT know – just what each such
individual would do / choose, given the chance, whatever time and place
they were "dropped into" and whatever the circumstances. Our free will,
yours and mine and all those who are not challenged in the way you ask
about, is limited by our situations, after all.
If stranded on a desert island, we wouldn't be able to rob a liquor
store, even if that were our proclivity. If it is a case of many
individuals who would choose for salvation but not amount to anything in
particular after salvation, then there is little additional point in the
plan of God, it seems to me, to giving them long normal lives wherein
they can prove that this is so. On the other hand, if they "would have
if they could have", well, the Lord knows that too.
The one thing we can say for certain is that however the Lord is working
it out, what He has chosen to do is absolutely fair and just – since He
could never be otherwise in His perfect integrity and righteousness. We
will find out on the other side exactly how these matters fell out for
everyone. In the meantime, we know that we personally DO have the free
will and the opportunities that we DO have . . . so we best make the
most of them.
Wishing you and your family a really blessed 2024, my friend!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #19:
Thanks for your reply Bob,
The writing on true peace was a great blessing to me thank you.
[omitted]
We have talked about this before Bob (many, many times.) I have asked
this before and will ask you again. If they don't listen to the Word
then there is the witness of the life. What if they ignore the witness
of the life and set it at nought?
In Jesus,
Response #19:
At least your family is consistent.
We have control over our own free will, but not the free will of others.
The witness of the life is a spiritual principle, but it is one
specifically given to Christian wives vis-à-vis their unbelieving
husbands (1Pet.3:1). That is no doubt because they are stuck in that
situation. For the rest of us, while we do of course have some
obligations to our family, to make sure they do not starve or freeze to
death, e.g. (1Tim.5:8), we are not obligated to be slaves to them,
certainly not after we attain our maturity and move out from under their
roofs.
For hard cases, we need to trust the Lord that He knows our hearts on
this and keep praying. What we don't need to do is to compromise
everything else in our lives by engaging in behavior that is not getting
us anywhere.
I'm praying for you for all this, my friend.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #20:
[omitted]
Response #20:
I've never liked saying "God bless you!" because I don't have the power
to cause God to bless anyone. I think the phrase originally meant "May
God bless you", in other words, "that is my wish and fondest hope and
even my prayer for you, but I don't have any power to call down God's
blessing upon someone". Because now people mostly understand it to mean
the former and because few people understand the Bible or the theology
it embodies, saying "God bless you!" will almost certainly send the
wrong message. So I don't say it personally (not that I never have in my
life – we all make mistakes).
In terms of 2nd John 1:10-11, this is an order to the church and is
referring to the church associating with unbelievers or believers who are
preaching a false gospel. I don't think we need to take it to mean that
we can't have an association whatsoever with unbelievers (otherwise we
would have to leave the world: 1Cor.5:10), nor that we should break off
all association with family members who are not believers (cf.
1Cor.7:12-14; cf. 1Tim.5:8). We can't give the gospel to unbelievers if
we have no contact with them whatsoever.
When it comes to individuals who are hostile to the truth, the less
contact the better, however. There's a middle ground here somewhere when
it comes to family, and that is for each believer to find with God's
help through prayer and the guidance of the Spirit. It seems pretty
clear that you were leaning very far in the witness of the life
direction without any particular response; it's only natural to want to
lean now far in the other direction (of separation). Taking things in
small steps so as to avoid large gyrations back and forth is sometimes
prudent. But again, these are decisions you have to make with God's
help.
I'm praying for you, my friend.
In Jesus,
Bob L.