http://ichthys.com/ 
Eschatology Issues CXXIV

Question #1:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,

I certainly enjoyed, in my spirit, the things that you have written about the referenced scripture, Isaiah 53:5, "by His wounds, we are healed". I have read each one of the attachments and your response, and they were absolutely amazing and really spiritual. They helped me a lot because they touched what I was taught while in the Pentecostal environment. This is one of the several doctrines that they have greatly mis-interpreted and taken out of context.

I just want to give my gratitude to the LORD for leading me to the ministry that He has given to you. I don't have words that I can express for the kindness and help that you have given me, but I know you will give praise to the One who deserves, after all we are God's
appointed who will receive eternal rewards very soon.

Sure looks like this country is headed the wrong way, but will soon be eliminated. Many things that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 seem to be taking place.

Your teachings help me beyond explanation, ever since I began studying with your website some 8+years ago.

I am still studying Eschatology..... More to learn.

I pray God's richest blessings on you, and the grace of God be with you always.

I appreciate your ministry beyond words.

Your friend,
Response #1:
Thanks as always for your most encouraging words, my friend!

Re: "Sure looks like this country is headed the wrong way" – that is an understatement – "but will soon be eliminated": here it depends what "soon" means. In my interpretation of events, if we are as close to the end as scripture suggests in my reading of it (as you can see in BB 2B; link), this country must be eschatological Babylon. That nation will be "top of the heap" during the Tribulation, right down until about the final six months when antichrist and his compatriots destroy it – not for bad behavior but for rebelling against him during the darkness of the fifth bowl judgment (link).
Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth (i.e., Mystery Babylon).”
Revelation 17:15-18 NIV
Keeping you and your family in my daily prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #2:
Hi Bob,

I was in the path of the full eclipse as I suspect you were. It was impressive! I couldn't help but think of Genesis 1:14. The KJV seemed more accurate again where NIV seemed to dilute the message. I heard in the grocery store that local and county law enforcement were concerned at the estimated 3 million people coming into town (pop. about 9,000) for an eclipse celebration of some sort. Apparently it was rained out. Frankly, I hope they've all gone home because I need to go to the grocery tomorrow and I've lost my ability to deal with crowds and traffic.

Also, in the headlines, all the illegal voters invading the country are bringing in tuberculosis, measles and other assorted diseases. If I remember my history correctly, that was how the Moors conquered Europe. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm seeing the hand of God at work, particularly with all the disasters of the past few years.

I pray all is well with you and yours.

In our Lord,
Response #2:
On the eclipse, it really is astounding to me that all these people who were "wowed" by it could really believe that something like that could occur by accident – or that any of the miracles of nature we experience daily, great or small, could be accidental. Could there really be predictable eclipses along with all the other complicated celestial mechanics necessary for life on earth without God? Could there really be ants or bees or butterflies without a Creator? It takes much more "faith" to believe that all this is an accident than it does to believe the truth. But that is the gift of free will we've all been given, the image of God ability to decide for ourselves whether to believe and accept the obvious truth and the consequences thereof, or to harden our hearts against it and turn to the devil's lies instead (link: in BB 4B: "The Problem of Unbelievers").

On immigration, well, I don't care a fig about votes or voting. Politics is pointless. The devil is backing and manipulating both sides. But I do remember my old pastor, Col. Thieme said one time, probably about 40 plus years ago now, when asked about this subject, that possibly God is bringing most of these people over the border because believers in this country are not doing their job to send good, prepared, doctrinal missionaries to meet them where they are. The problem for the immigrants is that most believers in this country and almost all churches are not even doing what they should be doing for themselves and their present charges to provide for spiritual growth, let alone newcomers who may not speak English well. So someone crossing the border may end up improving their physical, material lot (possible though not as easy as some suppose), but whether or not they end up improving their spiritual lot is an open question. 

In terms of disasters, I don't think that there is any question but that the Lord is trying to get our attention. Look what He did for Israel before the Babylonian captivity. But they like we in stiff-necked fashion refused to respond and suffered the consequences. The Lord did rescue a remnant, however. This is prophesied to be the case for mystery Babylon too (as long as those still around before judgment time hearken to the command to flee; see the link).

So lots of excitement ahead. It's apparently an apocryphal reference, but the putative Chinese "curse", "May you live in interesting times!" certainly comes to mind.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #3:
Hi Dr. Lunginbill!!

Hope you and yours are well and fine!!

I am now a grandmother of two beautiful girls, 3 & 5 and another on the way…. NEVER thought I’d be a grandma!! What a concept!! What a hoot!!!

Thank you so much for your ministry!!I use your site to learn and am able to share the word here and there. I live in a five college town and it’s liberal as liberal can get…. The churches here are for the rainbow people and same sex marriages…. But, I do love it when I CAN say God’s Word and make someone stop and contemplate!!

Now for my question….

This April 8th total eclipse is all the talk now on secular news and ministry sites and I’m wondering what it all means.

Yeshua says look for signs in the sky… this one seems to be very blatant how can one miss it!!

So, the eclipse that happened in 2017 and the one after that one and now this one coming is making an Alpeh and before this one they made a Tav.

The crossing between all three hits a place called Devil’s Pass (??) in a town called Egypt.

IS our Heavenly Father actually showing us a warning and also the predicted meteor coming in 2027 is supposed to be a hit for this planet.

Guess my question is … what am I to make of all this?

Thank you so much Dr. Luginbill for your studies, your time and answers!!

In Christ
Response #3:
Good to hear from you – and congrats on the growing family! I'm sure that your grandchildren are keeping YOU busy as well as their parents.

Thanks also for the good words about Ichthys. Much appreciated.

On your question, re: "Yeshua says look for signs in the sky", I assume you are referring to this passage:
"And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
Luke 21:25-28 NKJV
As you can see from the context, these "signs" are harbingers of the second advent, the return of our Lord at the very end of the Tribulation, and not signs to tell us that the Tribulation is close or beginning. For the former, as I often point out, there are none. The Church Age is the mystery age, intercalated, so to speak, into the Jewish Age and ending in the Tribulation in conjunction with it. What that means in terms of prophecy is that there is no prophecy for events happening during our 2,000 year run. All biblical prophecy as yet unfulfilled has to do with the Tribulation and the events that follow it. So anytime that anyone tries to suggest prophetic significance for any date or any event that happens during our Church Age time, that is a mistake. Or, really, not a mistake, per se, but generally a way to attract attention (and a following). We are given a good deal of information in scripture about the way the ages have been constructed, so I have set out a likely time for the commencement of the Tribulation – but I stress that this is an interpretation based upon the biblical evidence rather than a direct teaching (see the link).

Celestial phenomenon such as eclipses are often predictable physical phenomena (although the one which occurred for the three hours our Lord was on the cross was entirely supernatural). But we will be in no doubt when the actual Tribulation does begin, as scripture says very clearly:
When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
Revelation 8:1-5 NKJV
The above phenomena will, like all such things which happen during the Tribulation, be visible and audible worldwide. So no one will be in doubt when it starts – at least no believer should be.

As to "what am I to make of all this?", I would say, "not too much!" It is certainly the case that any believer with eyes in his/her head can look at the world and the accelerating trend to degeneration away from everything decent and good – and away for any interest in the Lord and His truth – and realize that things cannot go on like this much longer. Just as the Lord was not willing to let backsliding Israel stay in the land in near total apostasy forever but ejected them into the Babylonian captivity, so I would imagine that the spiritual state of the world – and the poor showing of the remnant of believers in Laodicea – is a "sign" that the end is near. How near? Once cannot say, of course. See the prior link for the assessment I have made, not on the basis of "how bad" things are and are getting (that is a general indication without a time stamp), but on the basis of what scripture has to say about the seven thousand year plan of God.

As to letters, the forms of Aleph and Tav in the "square script" which one finds in the Bible today are very much different from the ones used in antiquity when most of the Old Testament was written, so I wouldn't put any stock in that at all.

Hope this is some help! I might be more inclined to be thinking "doom" if the eclipse were on April 15th instead of the 8th (LOL).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #4:
Hi again,

In my morning scan of headlines, I was disgusted with the incessant "news" of transgenders. These versus came to mind specifically the KJV rendering of effeminate. I checked the NIV rendering of those two verses and found them to be substantially different though pointing in the same direction. Which is a more accurate translation? (In checking Strong's, KJV strikes me as closer.) Would not transgenders be considered effeminate in the extreme? Do you think they could repent and be saved even though they can't reverse the feminism if surgically altered?

Thanks

In our Lord,
Response #4:
The Greek word is malakos, meaning "soft" (and if I'm not mistaken, a variation of this word is still used today as a slur – though meaning something quite different). So "effeminate" is not a bad translation. It doesn't have the precise meaning "transgender". And it would be odd if it did, because in the ancient world they didn't think of things like this in the terms that are in vogue today. In our culture, you "are" one thing or another and you need to "discover" what that thing is. In antiquity, it was more of a "menu" with people engaging more in this proclivity or that – which is why terms like this one you ask about occur in sin catalogs in scripture. In reality, we are as God made us. What WE choose to do is a function of our free will – and God comports Himself to us accordingly . . . as these verses make clear enough in any version:
To the faithful you show yourself faithful, to the blameless you show yourself blameless, to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.
Psalm 18:25-26 NIV

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1st Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV
People who choose to indulge themselves instead of turning to God in repentance so as to be saved through faith in Christ are responsible for their own destruction in the end.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #5:
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize that fluid nonsense was common in the ancient world. "Transgender" seems more like Marxist new speak. I wonder how our future world will remember this, if the former world is remembered at all. In my cosmos, people with an XY chromosome pair are male and an XX chromosome pair are female no matter how they dress, act or are surgically altered. I have to admit, I'm looking forward to the future world.

Yours in our Lord,
Response #5:
Re: "I'm looking forward to the future world", me too! And the way things are going it seems more than likely that we don't have all that long to wait. That will be one good thing about the Tribulation: once the clock starts ticking, we'll have a very good idea of how much time is left.

Lots of eclipse hoopla today at school and, I noticed, in the media – much more than last time, it seems to me. All these people who are gaga over an eclipse will be VERY interested in all of the unique celestial happenings during the Tribulation, no doubt. 100 pound hail should really get their attention (Rev.16:21). Makes me very grateful to be a believer destined to be protected like the children of Israel were during the exodus.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.
Question #6:
Hi Bob,

It's astounding what people believe. This winter when I had the small yellow butterflies accompany me down the lane, I noticed that the Lord provided them food I'd not noticed before so He provided delight for me as well as food for them. I had a pair of swallows adopt my little house as their local Capistrano and even though they express their displeasure when I'm outside, they have effectively kept the mosquitoes away which the Lord provided as food for them and made my life more pleasant.

Yet people believe the most ridiculous things like: we crawled out of the primordial mud billions of years ago and evolved into what we are today. Or the universe appeared out of nothing in a big bang, light travels at a constant rate across the visible universe and "doctors" can be trusted. In reading the discussions of cults in your weekly posts, many more things than religions bear all the characteristics of cults. (Follow the science!!) Trouble is, we believe Satan's first lie.

You and yours remain in my daily prayers. Is your difficulty at U of L resolved?

In our Lord,
Response #6:
Things at the university are going well enough. We're getting down to the end of the semester and the personnel work is FINALLY concluded. Our last faculty meeting is on the 22nd, and I should be officially off of the committee for next year with the election that will take place. 

Lots of time and effort going into "home improvement" at the moment ($$$ as well). Also, I will need to get started with the gardens soon. Also, I will need to get started with research soon (the "grand plan" to do some during the school year did not pan out as things were too busy to even put an oar in the water). Other than that . . . boring times!

Re: evolution nonsense. You would think these "scientists" would have had a class or too in mathematics. I'm no mathematician (and have the grades to prove it), but even I know that the probability of a single set of amino acids forming up on their own and doing anything since the dawn of time even as considered by these types is so improbable as to be a null set – let alone anything like life "just happening" (violation of the law of entropy at every single stage). Their only real argument is, "well, yes, improbable . . . but here it is!" Which is exactly the wrong conclusion since their underlying assumption is "there can't be anything supernatural [WRONG!] so therefore evolution must be true" [WRONG!]. The modern version of "science" takes the materialistic religion "on faith".

Thanks for your prayers, my friend! Keeping you in mine daily.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #7:
[omitted]

In our Lord,
Response #7:
While scripture doesn't say definitively, animals (etymologically "creatures with spirit) are not given the image of God like we are – so they are not responsible for choosing for (or suffering the consequences for rejecting) God. Here's a link to something I wrote about that: "Does the Bible reference whether our beloved pets will be in Heaven?"

I just get concerned about you being alone out there, my friend.

I do keep you in my daily prayers.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #8:
Hi Bob,

Thank you for the link. It makes sense to me. Seeing the way the Lord took care of his critters this winter, I have no doubt they are important to Him. That link contains other links I'll have to explore tomorrow.

I appreciate your concern, but I'm fine. At this stage of my life, I appreciate being isolated. I have my nagging swallows to keep me on my toes, butterflies to accompany me on my walks. honeybees and bumble bees to make sure I'm doing things correctly, wasps and spiders to eliminate pests and occasionally entertain as well as possums to aerate the yard. I do see snakes (non-venomous) and skunks from time to time. Neither care for my company. I haven't seen a rattler in quite a few years. (The Lord watches out for me!) 

I know there will come a time. but it's not something I worry about. My tour of duty will end, I'll be discharged and enter a much better life.

I do appreciate your prayers. Thank you. You and yours remain in mine daily.

In our Lord,
p.s. I apologize for rhapsodizing. I sometimes get carried away. A character flaw...
Response #8:
My pleasure.

Thanks for the reassurance. 

"My tour of duty will end, I'll be discharged and enter a much better life." I love that too!

Keep fighting the fight, my friend – and thanks much for the prayers and good wishes.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
p.s., pretty good flaw!
Question #9:
Hello Dr.,

Rolling along here, not much new to report. We are doing ok, work is getting more dysfunctional by the day, which is to be expected (people are insane, the result of the sin nature left unchecked!). I’ll be eligible for full retirement in six years, right in the middle of the Tribulation. Not that retirement will mean anything at that point, I just find it interesting that I’m slated to work right up until the time of the mark, eventual imprisonment or martyrdom, whatever the Lord wills is fine by me, it’ll just be interesting to see how it all turns out, not to mention the rest of this evil clown show we find ourselves in the middle of. Also noticing more immigrants hanging around on the streets not only in the city but out here in the county as well (even had a trespasser on my property out here in the sticks this last week, however I scared them off and didn’t get a good look at them) . People just walking/hanging around with nothing to do and most likely in need adds up to trouble.

How are you Sir? Hope your feeling better. I totally relate to your work environment “rah-rahs” and staff being devoted to the “wrong things”, getting that here as well. It’s gonna get worse before it gets better, but thankfully were on the winning side of the King! I’ll be in touch soon, got you in prayer.

All the best,

Rev.22:20
Response #9:
Glad to hear that things are rolling along for you guys. It's a very busy time for me. I got a series of exams for our honor society layered on at the last minute and this next couple of weeks our greatly-reduced-in-size personnel committee has to tackle yearly merit reviews for some 40+ members of our dept. It's shaping up to be awful with an all evening meeting on Friday after next after teaching four classes, but I'm determined not to let it stop Saturday posting. I'm feeling pretty good now, so if that stays as is I should be able to do it. 

Retirement sounds pretty good! However, I'll probably keep plugging along in this job until the mortgage is paid off (ca. 2050 LOL!!!).

Scary to hear about the situation in your neck of the woods. We do have more homeless in L-ville than in the past. Haven't noticed much on the immigration front, except to say that absolutely everyone around here who is doing physical labor seems to be speaking Spanish. I much prefer them to the homeless who speak English!  Also, there is this:
“You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt."
Exodus 22:21 ESV
Keeping my head down at work. Meeting with the new dean last Friday . . . waiting around after teaching four classes for an extra hour. But this time I kept my mouth shut (the duct tape helped).

Keeping you guys in my prayers every day – and thanks again so much for your help, my friend. Greatly appreciated.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #10:
Hi Bob,

Lately I've been brooding on 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I always understood this to be a reference to the tribulation, but I think I was too limiting, particularly in light of 1 John 2:18. With current conditions looking like we've lost our collective mind, the wildly divergent opinions on the conflicts in the Ukraine and Gaza of people who have no firsthand knowledge of what's going on and particularly with AI taking over some news broadcasts, porn images of a "Pop Star" fir which she's suing, manufactured news images and so forth, I've come to the conclusion that only scripture can be trusted and the Thessalonians passage applies to today rather than just the future. I think you used the term "prepping the battlefield" and I think that's exactly what Satan is doing.

I think what we're seeing and reading now consists of "lying signs and wonders" and I wonder if paying attention to any of it anymore is worth it.

If my interpretation is ill founded and the Thessalonians quote is not the best rendition of the Greek, please let me know. The KJV is what I've spent the most time reading and the one that comes first to mind. Bible Gateway, BTW, is advertising "Learn the Bible in 30 days." I've been at it over 30 years and still learning.

As a side note, in considering the lilies of the field, you expressed some surprise that butterflies were out already. They are out still -- along with other six-legged neighbors. What is remarkable is the Lord had many small plants growing and flowering so that they had food to eat. What the Lord said about taking no thought of what you will eat or wear is absolutely reliable.

I pray all is well with you and yours and U of L is treating you well.

In our Lord,
Response #10:
Nothing much resembling Spring up here yet . . . and snow coming in tomorrow night. 

Yes, this passage is all about the Tribulation . . . in terms of its interpretation. That doesn't mean that there isn't an application to what we're seeing right now. There's plenty of "strong delusion" out there and it's certainly being stoked by the evil one. It's just that what we're going to see in the Tribulation will be more so, exponentially. That is a good description of the Tribulation generally. There's "nothing new under the sun", and the Tribulation is not the first tribulation, but it is "great" in the sense of being more so, "such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be" (Mk.13:19).
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:24 NKJV

He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
Revelation 13:13-14 NKJV
The passage in 2nd Thessalonians chapter two really refers to the above (and like things) which will happen during those last seven years before our Lord returns. Whatever deceptions we're seeing now – and there are plenty of them – as I often say, "we ain't seen nothin' yet".

Thanks for your prayers and concerns, my friend! Keeping you in my prayers as well.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #11:
Hi Bob,

After thinking about it, I was getting carried away with current trends. I remember years ago I saw some Pompeian bath house mosaics that were exactly like modern porn, If what I've read is true (always a question) Rome was as degenerate as we; Caligula, Nero, Valerian, et. al. I've come to the conclusion that the perversion and corruption will continue until the Lord says, "OK. That's enough" and drops the hammer.

Thanks for putting up with me. The next few years are going to be a challenge. It's getting bitter in my stomach.

In our Lord,
Response #11:
It's a always a pleasure to hear from you, my friend.

Re: "The next few years are going to be a challenge." That is likely to prove to be quite an understatement.

Speaking of Pompeii, yes, there has always been porn (a Greek root meaning "having to do with prostitutes), but the Greco-Roman stuff was worse because it was also religious. Paganism melded this stuff directly into its cult worship. That's the sort of thing we can expect to see returning with antichrist's religion (as mentioned before: links).

Blessedly, we know when that hammer will fall. For Mystery Babylon, about six months or so before the second advent, she will be destroyed (link); for everyone else who took the beast's mark who is not killed at Armageddon, they will taken off the earth at the Baptism of Fire shortly thereafter (link).

And it's not as if the Tribulation and much of what happens within it doesn't fall into this same category of God's judgment ("hammer"). The bowl judgments are entirely retributive, aimed at the unbelievers who are persecuting the Church (link). The warning judgments of the trumpets are likewise not meant to harm us believers but to warn the unbelieving world about the dangers of following the beast (which most will ignore; link). So while the Tribulation will be "challenging" and then some, we who are waiting for the "blessed hope" of the return of our Lord and our gathering up in resurrection to be with Him forever can at least take solace in the fact and in the experience of seeing those who have allied with the enemy get their just deserts.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #12:
Doc, I've found that perhaps one of the best proofs that Conservatism is NOT "the Christian way to approach politics"(we and those interested in truth on this matter knows the "correct approach" is to put the gear into reverse and get far away from it all), is pitting the Biblical truths of free will and renewal vs what I call "the Conservative doctrine of incorrigibility".

Basically, Conservative justice system beliefs that alot of people on the Right Wing have are rooted not only in the idea that focusing on harsh punishment of criminal acts is the safer and more beneficial option when it comes to criminal justice, but that some people are extremely unlikely to be able to/choose to truly change no matter what seeming change of attitude they have once they've shown to do severe crimes. Some would even go as far to say these people are incapable of true change, that they simply lack the intellectual and/or decision making agency to resist such acts.

Of course saying all Conservatives have this as a core belief in criminal justice would be an untrue blanket statement, especially when some believe there should be some attempt to rehabilitate. But the idea still stands as one prevalent in the modern Right Wing, and one that many defend to the death as "the actual Conservative view" or even "the objective observation view".

The Bible as we know says quite otherwise. Everyone with mental maturity has free will to act how they want, and even if they've greatly hardened their heart and built up strong negative habits like say, your typical felon you might find behind bars, if they truly desire change and especially if they find Christ, they can change, even if it takes significant work. Objective observation tells us this too, though the one thing Conservative incorrigibity gets right is that most people who reach such a point won't change, out of having hardened their hearts so much.

Do you feel I explained this well? I've been thinking on this and it just becomes more disturbing the political side of it the more I think about it.
Response #12:
This is a very thoughtful discussion of the issue.

"[W]e and those interested in truth on this matter knows the "correct approach" is to put the gear into reverse and get far away from it all" Amen!

Here's the thing. For us who are interested in the truth and wise enough to stay away from politics, this is pretty much of an academic question. If we let ourselves get upset by outrages we see on the news, that is not wise, especially since there is nothing we can do about them. Well, not quite "nothing"; and indeed, quite "something". We can dedicate ourselves to being the best and most savory "salt" we can be. If enough Christians do this, and if the remnant grows in quality and quantity, then God will bless our nation and all these sorts of problems will take care of themselves (link); but if the remnant keeps shrinking and losing its savor, then not even the most brilliant and well-thought out policies in the world, effectively implemented, will help in the end. 

The clock is ticking for Mystery Babylon.
If anyone does not love the Lord, let him be bound under a curse!
Marana Tha! ["Return to us, O thou our Lord!"]
1st Corinthians 16:22
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #13:
Hello Dr. Luginbill, 

Hope you are doing well. I emailed you several months ago with a question and did not hear back from you and that was very unusual since you always respond so quickly so I am not sure if it went to your spam. I will try again and see if it gets to you.

If I were to die before Jesus returns to set up His 1000 year reign what would I look like since I would not have an earthly body at that point but a new resurrected one? When we come back with Him do we resume life here on earth as before or are we in Jerusalem doing Holy things and supporting His kingdom on earth? And will all the people from OT believers until now who have died all be hanging around together? Does scripture tell us anything about this millennium time period?

Another question about the two witnesses coming. You have said they will be Moses and Elijah, correct? They will be witnessing outside the gates in Jerusalem? And will be in charge of the 144,000 from the 12 tribes to witness to the Jews? That said, would not our modern technology, cell phones, cameras, etc show them witnessing and so everyone will see that the Bible was right it telling about this and all would/should believe or are people's hearts so hardened that they will not accept even if they can see it? 

I would imagine that your semester at UofL is ending for this year or very soon anyway since it is almost Thanksgiving. Hope you and your family have a blessed holiday season. From reading your weekly emails it sounds like you have not been feeling well and pray you are now on the mend.

Blessings in Jesus,
p.s., please remember to let me know if you got this.
Response #13:
Good to hear that we are back "in comm". However, would you please acknowledge receipt of this message too so I can be sure you got it?

As to your questions, first, it doesn't matter whether we die before the Lord's return or are still "alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" (1Thes.4:15): all believers from Adam and Eve until the second advent are resurrected at the same time and in the same way, the only exception being that those still alive when the Lord returns will be resurrected directly from these present bodies (as opposed to first passing into the interim state; see the link). Once resurrected, we immediately marshal with the Lord and the elect angels "in the air" and view the battle of Armageddon (we also do have a role; see the link). After this, there is the judgment seat of Christ (link), where we are evaluated for how we did in our lives, then the great victory banquet (link), and then, yes indeed, all members of the Bride of Christ will share in His millennial rule (Rom.5:17; 1Cor.4:8; 2Tim.2:12; Rev.2:26-27; 3:21). 

Here is the best link to describe what the Millennium will be like. Exactly what our roles will be in administering the Lord's world kingdom, scripture doesn't share any details on that, but it is easy to imagine that an entire world without any government except for that of our Lord, centered in Jerusalem, will have need of many officials in many different capacities (we can compare Daniel and his friends being given such positions in Babylon and later Persia). We also can't say a great deal about what else we may be "doing". Scripture, as I have said many times, approaches eternity more in the manner of the negatives of this life being removed rather than explaining the positives of the life to come, no doubt because we wouldn't be able to understand before we actually experience them (and/or might lose all interest in this present world while we still have a job to do here for the Lord as long as we draw breath). But we can be sure that eternal life in resurrection will be far, far better than the best of life here in this temporary world. We can also be sure that being rewarded will make a difference. No one will be unhappy. No one will have regrets (after the judgment seat of Christ), but it will be better by far to receive a good reward than not. Best links for all this, in CT 5, "The Resurrection of the Lamb's Bride", and in CT 6, "The Judgment and Reward of the Church".

As to the two witnesses, yes, these are Moses and Elijah. They also rebuild the temple during the Tribulation's first half, so they will minister inside rather than outside of Jerusalem.
And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
Mark 9:1-4 NIV
In terms of how the world should react, you definitely have a point. But we can never afford to underestimate the hardness of the human heart. Stubborn and stiff-necked unbelievers are generally not moved by anything. Think of all the Jews who knew scripture who saw our Lord, heard His words, experienced His miracles . . . but still refused to believe. In spite of all the miraculous happenings during the Tribulation, the majority of mankind will still refuse to turn to the Lord.
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Revelation 9:20 NIV

Now when they (i.e., Moses and Elijah) have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
Revelation 11:7-10 NIV

Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.
Revelation 14:6 NIV
In terms of the last passage above, there is no indication of any positive response from the world's believers whatsoever, and they gladly participate in the beast's last attempt to destroy Israel at the battle of Armageddon (Rev.14:18-20).

Thanks for all your good wishes! I did have some sort of nasty bug and was only "bumping through" the last two weeks, but I am back in the pink now. Here's wishing you and your family a blessed T-day as well!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #14:
Dear Teacher

My wife's hometown was attacked yesterday by bandits. They went to the community market and shot at the crowd of buyers and sellers. I heard that there were casualties as a result. I've been worried about what we could do about her family when we leave the country--if the Lord opens a door for us to leave. I am hoping that the Lord will grant her dad a heart to move his family out of the country too. It seems to me that this recent event is an escalation because they are attacking the city of Jos from a new, previously excluded direction especially one to which those fleeing the city center have been coming to resettle.

Your student in Jesus Christ 
Response #14:
That is awful!

I'm distressed to hear this. 

No one should have to put up with this sort of thing. Things are bad all over the world (in this country we have gang shoot outs too, and many nutty young men trying to see how many people they can kill before being stopped). And it seems, and getting worse by the day . . . but some places are definitely worse than others.

I do pray for you and your families daily, and guidance and help on emigration to somewhere safe is part of my prayer.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:
Hey Dr. Luginbill, 

I have a question related to a discussion we've had in the past regarding "dogmatism" in beliefs. 

Do you think it is wrong or arrogant for me to say (as just one example) "I don't believe I could be wrong that the Trinity is real and exists." I honestly don't think I could be wrong and see nothing wrong with me saying that. 

One argument I've heard against this is that everything we teach in the Bible is an interpretation (including the statement that Jesus is the Son of God which is directly stated in the Bible from John 3:16 and other passages). Therefore, (so the reasoning goes), since everything is an interpretation, we don't have I right to say we couldn't be wrong on anything. But shouldn't we differentiate between inferred interpretations based on good evidence and reasoning (such as the 2026 dating) and direct interpretations stemming from explicit statements in Scripture (such as the Trinity)? I get that there are unbelievers out there who don't believe in the Trinity and have their own interpretation, but it is a teaching that is pretty much directly (or obviously) stated everywhere in the Bible from start to finish. 

I contrast the Trinity example with the 2026 interpretation. I believe in the 2026 dating with absolute certainty (and would therefore teach it if given the chance). However, I do believe I could be wrong since that teaching is not directly stated in the Bible (unlike the Trinity which is taught everywhere) and also because I am a fallible human being. I see no contradiction saying I believe in the 2026 dating while also allowing that it could be off by a few years. 

What are your thoughts on all this? 

Your brother in Christ
Response #15:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Matthew 28:19 KJV
I have my issues with the above translation, as you probably know (it's "into the Persons" speaking of spiritual position at salvation not water at all), but the Trinity is clearly here. So if someone wanted to know how I interpreted the above I would say that I interpreted it to mean what it says: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God – just as we affirm in our formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. 
And because you are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Galatians 4:6 LSB
Again, if someone wanted to say that they don't find the Trinity here, I would reply that the obvious meaning of the text is placing God the Father, and the Spirit, and the Son on the same level of deity, and it would be "an interpretation" (a wrong one), to say otherwise. When we formulate doctrine, it is true, that we do have to "spell things out" making use of all of the material scripture provides everywhere, not just in the passage we are addressing. That is just good Bible teaching (I would say theology, but that word embraces a lot of things which are way off-base historically and certainly at present).

So, yes, I think the 2026 example is a good one. It's not the case that we have a scripture which mentions a date and then we combine other information to expand and explain it. Rather than being inductive (where we add to what is clearly stated), this one is deductive, drawing information from various sources to provide a teaching which, while in my view it is correct, cannot be placed on the same level as "doctrine" since it is interpretive at its base. Because it is an interpretation, moreover, does NOT mean it is wrong or unworthy of belief (that is the implication of your interlocutors). I for one DO believe it – and I'm happy to hear you say so too.

That, at least, is how I see things in regard to basic tenets of the faith. Just how to take individual scriptures also requires interpretation, but of a different sort (even though we use the same word for both).

When it comes to people who want to say "that is just your interpretation" for anything they disagree with, how to handle them is an apologetic question to be decided by the person having to deal with naysayers. Short of calling down thunder and lightening, I don't know personally how to get negative people to respond to the truth (and if the exodus generation tells us anything, it is that even so such types would still not believe: Is.6:9-10).

As to wanting to say something like, "you could be wrong!" about any Bible teaching, it's good to remember that God gave us His Bible with the purpose of our understanding it AND believing it. And that whatever we do not believe does us no good since only what truth we believe is converted into epignosis by the Spirit and made usable for us by Him. So anyone who does take the position – for themselves (which they must do if they're demanding it of you) – that everything is an interpretation which might be wrong and therefore not proper to believe, is not a believer in the first place . . . because that means that they don't firmly and genuinely believe anything.
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."
Acts 16:31
I interpret the above to mean that if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved and I believe the truth of that interpretation and so I believe what is written here. But for all for whom "it's only an interpretation", for all such they do not believe the truth of it, they have reservations about it, and by withholding judgment they are making a judgment that it is not worth believing. So they are lost.

How goes the new job and the move home? I'm keeping you in my prayers, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #16:
[omitted]

Sorry for the long email but there is a lot I want(ed) to tell you. 

I don't believe I could be wrong that the Trinity is real (that there really are three persons in one). I did compare it as a different scenario to the 2026 dating of which it was agreed that it could be off by a few years, even though we both believe it with absolute certainty. But I don't hold any possibility that I could be wrong about the Trinity (which is a doctrine).

[omitted]

The new job is a good fit and one I enjoy very much. It has a lot of room for career growth. I was kinda tired of being a "nomad" there for a while so I'm happy to have found something that I believe I can finally settle down in and call a career. Probably (hopefully) the last job I will take before the tribulation begins. 

I'm settled in but still have a few things left to take care of. Been really busy with work, ministry, errands, and other things. Got to talk with some people (new individuals and those I already know) and visit a few churches. Shared Ichthys and my website with a few people in person. I'm saddened to hear some bad news about so many believers I grew up with who are no longer doing well spiritually. Some have denied the faith altogether while others seem to be heading in that direction. It saddens and sickens me, it really does professor. Things just keep getting worse. One of my past friends from years ago no longer considers himself a believer, another came out as bisexual (he and his wife are both ok with that), and the list just sadly goes on and on with other believing friends and acquaintances I once used to know. It reminds me of this week's Saturday postings where you mentioned in a lot of your responses how so many people have abandoned not only your ministry, but also the truth in general. That really saddened and discouraged me reading all that. I know that has been happening for years, but we really are very close to the end now. But there is no time to look back as we must keep our heads up and stay busy doing what the Lord wants us to do. 

If it is any encouragement to you, I just want you to know that even if the 2026 dating proves to be incorrect in the future, I will still stand by and support you. It wouldn't change everything else we know to be true. I say this because it is possible that you could lose credibility with some people if the dating turns out to be wrong (which I don't believe it will). Just curious (not that you have to answer), but has it ever worried you at all? 

I've plugged into a small Bible study of about 6-9 people who are very introverted and don't mind me talking a lot. It's funny because they are SO quiet to the point where I honestly don't think they would mind me taking over. They told me "if you have a good bit to say, by all means speak up!" I think it's a good fit for me, even if it doesn't work out in the long run. Only time will tell. But I'm not gonna waste my time with any services. I've already visited three churches in the three weeks I've been here and the service times are just such a complete joke, I'm sorry. I'm glad we don't have long till the tribulation wakes everybody up and shakes them out of this complacency. 

Your younger brother in Christ
Response #16:
My apologies to you. Perhaps I didn't process your email properly. I got the impression that you were having a discussion with someone who was hostile to the truth and was using the "it's just an interpretation" tactic to call the Trinity into question. I would be VERY surprised to hear that any Ichthys reader doesn't believe the Trinity. I do know you all had gotten into some very sharp discussions over the question of complete faith in what we teach vs. relative humility about our limitations. Honestly, I am not sure these sorts of discussions are helpful – except maybe in the Philosophy department. 

What it boils down to in the end is that we shouldn't teach what we don't believe but we also shouldn't believe what we have not sufficiently nailed down. If we take this particular discussion to the extremes, we will likely be tempted to the bad extremes of considering everything relative on the one hand or absolute dogmatism on the other. In my opinion, if we just do our job as pastor-teachers, this is one thing we don't really have to worry about: of course we live by faith and strive and struggle to learn the truth, believe it and teach it; of course we know we are human and are capable of making mistakes, but that doesn't stop us from pursuing our mission. In between the two is where this fight is fought. We can't eliminate the battleground by denying the one or the other. This is the burden every pastor-teacher who's worth his salt has to bear. Buy if we follow the Spirit, if we listen to the Spirit, we have nothing to worry about on this count. 

Bottom line: I think this debating of positions which are not really important, because really we are all in the same place when it comes to the actual truth and the practical question of discovering it and teaching it and thus have no need of a philosophy of methodology. And this sort of debate can get out of hand, especially if it causes divisions or doubts. We are all on the same team, share the same faith, and, as I say, I would be shocked and surprised if there is really anything more to this than a "tempest in a teapot". Not that these can't be problematic if given more weight than they deserve.

Great news about your job and the connections you are making! I am sorry to hear that so many of those you knew/know are also falling by the wayside. The many who are just bumping along in nod-to-God churches are not much better off and will be very vulnerable once the Tribulation begins. The people in your small group who are eager to hear the truth from you may expand rapidly once the darkness falls – at least I expect that will happen. Given what we know of the stats, one third falling away, but one third martyred and one third enduring to the end, that will mean two thirds either being or getting serious about their faith. I don't see that at present, so it must mean that things will change during the Tribulation – for good in that respect.

On "what if it doesn't arrive on schedule", of course I thought about that way back when I first came to understand what I now teach. Of course God is in complete control of the plan and we only can know what He has shared with us. But it is my feeling that if He does share something with us, it is for a reason. So in good conscience I couldn't "sit on" what I found in scripture and what logically derived from it. I'm willing to "take the hit" if that was a mistake, but I honestly don't think it was. 

There are only really two variables worth mentioning in the 2026 interpretation about which there is any doubt, in my view: 1) the date of the cross / resurrection: these are derived from secular information as well as from the information in the Bible, and, of course, some of the former could be inaccurate; having gone over it all with a fine-tooth comb many times now, however, I don't thinks so; 2) the overlap: is it possible that there is no overlap, that the Church Age will run 2000 years and only then will the final seven years of the Jewish Age begin so that the Tribulation won't start until 2033? While that is possible, I've crunched that one over and over again as well, and it always comes out the same way: overlap (otherwise, why are "we" Church Age believers still here for the Tribulation?). If we are still here – and we (potentially on an individual basis) will be, how can our Age completely come to end with us still here? We will still have the Spirit indwelling us, so how can the Age of the Spirit be over? There are other reasons of course as well. We'll know soon enough, but since this is sure enough in my mind to believe, I have believed it, and therefore I teach it. I do take pains to explain that it is an interpretation, however.

Don't be discouraged, my friend! You are doing what the Lord wants you to do and I am certain that there is a great reward in store for you. Everyone has to make their own decisions in this life. We can only help those who are willing to be helped. In terms of the posting, I posted what I did to alert the community rather than bemoan any loss: everyone out there connected to Ichthys needs to understand these threats exist and be on watch so as not to be deceived.

Keeping you in my prayers daily, my friend! 

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #17:
No worries (and forgive me for bombarding you like this).

[omitted] . . . but I've got to do what I believe the Lord wants me to do. I do stand by what I've said; I don't believe there is any possibility I could be wrong about the Trinity. My mind is made up on that and I am fully convinced in my own mind (can't help it) and would rather be left alone about it. I believe what the Spirit has led me to believe. 

Does that mean I wouldn't be willing to talk to other believers about the godhead in the future (let's say through my ministry website or elsewhere)? Of course not, and it isn't like I'm going to go waltzing into a discussion telling people that I don't believe I could be wrong on that particular subject (I would only mention it if someone asked me about it since I have to be honest and cannot lie). I'm willing to present my arguments, listen to the others and do my best to refute them (those who oppose this critical teaching. I don't see how me having the right to have a belief would be shutting down a discussion, especially since I would do my best not to bring it up anyway and would be willing to discuss the matter with those who question it or want to know more (that's part of my job as a pastor teacher). The Trinity is not something that is open to debate in my mind because I am absolutely convinced that it is true and real and that there is no chance I could be wrong about it. But I see no contradiction to what I just said. We can debate it, but I can do so holding to my belief the way I do. 

Does that mean we can't discuss it? Of course not. So in a sense, I do view this as up to discussion in that it is something I am willing to talk about without forcing my view on others. Does this mean I would come out and say to someone, "your wrong, your wrong, and I know for a fact I'm right!" No, because how we say and handle things matters. We never want to be provocative and patronizing. But to me, I have every right to believe I couldn't be wrong. Does all this make sense? To me, a person saying they could be wrong about the Trinity is no different than saying they could be wrong that Jesus is God and that salvation is found only in Him by grace through faith alone (the Jehovah's Witnesses reject Christ because they reject the three persons after all). This is why I distinguish between the type of belief I have for the 2026 dating and that of the kind I have for the Trinity. One is absolute doctrine, the other is not. True Christian hope and faith in Christ does not say "I THINK this is true, but I KNOW this is true without a shadow of a doubt. Saying I could be wrong on that point just seems to run counter to that. I have nothing against discussing the evidence for the Trinity to further reinforce what I already believe, but to me, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to believe I couldn't be wrong about it. I am fully persuaded in my own mind. 

Thanks for being a sounding board. 
Response #17:
It's my pleasure, . I stand by what you said too!

From what you've reported, and of course this is me interpreting a second hand report, it sounds to me as if it's a question of "how we know what we know" and "when to believe and when to reserve judgment", not on this point so much as trying to develop some philosophical principle. But if you don't believe truth it doesn't do you any good in any case And in terms of the whole epistemology brouhaha, the Holy Spirit is the One who circumvents the entire problem: He only turns truth into epignosis, nothing else; and He only does that when we believe it. So even if we make the mistake of believing something not true, in the end it won't fit with the truth we are piling up in our heart and will be forced out. 

That is the way I was disabused of the pre-trib rapture, for example. If we are building, then eventually inferior bricks will be replaced by solid ones. But if we refuse to build until we are sure all bricks are perfect, we'll never get anywhere in the first place. For those of you who are preparing to teach, it is important to set a good foundation, starting at the bedrock. The gospel and the Trinity are right there. You believed it and it was true; you test it and find out that, yes, you were right, it IS true. Then you have confidence not only to live by it but to teach it to others. 

Some interpretations (e.g., 2026) take a bit more effort and the underpinning of other teachings in order to test out. But anything true will survive testing . . . if it's done the right way. N.B., this procedure is ONLY for those with the gift of pastor-teacher who have achieved a high rate of spiritual maturity and who are far along in the preparation process. For all others, this procedure can undermine basic faith. On the Trinity per se, it's obvious that you've already gotten beyond any need for testing there. As you have found out in some of those great materials you've produced, when you actually get down to trying to teach some subject, all of a sudden you begin to realize where your personal gaps are and where you need to dig a little deeper before "going to press", so to speak.

Do feel free to write me back about any of this, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18:
That helps clear everything up, thanks! I know it's just your take of what he has said, but I feel comfortable laying the matter to rest. 

It's funny, but everything you said is something I was going to briefly mention in my last email to you. The problem is that I always have so much on my mind as I'm writing (I want to say this and this, oh, and I can't forget to mention that!). I tend to be forgetful on that end (as was the case here) and so end up accidentally leaving things out I originally intended to include in my email. I was something like, "Oh man, I forgot to include that in my response to him." That is what I thought and realized not long after I messaged you. 

Anyway, and regarding what you said above which I totally agree with, I had this exact experience. I did have to test out many things in the past that I now believe. However, those periods are over for those particular things so that I have gotten to a point where I can confidently say on certain teachings/beliefs, "I don't believe I could be wrong about them." It isn't as if I never did any testing, for that I most certainly had to do a lot of! 

Thanks for helping me sort this out. Much appreciated as always! 

Your student in the Lord, 
Response #18:
It's my pleasure, my friend!

Given the times, it can be tough to tell people what they don't want to hear. But we have to do that often as pastor teachers. It can also be a mistake to put things SO abrasively that only individuals who have suspended all doubts whatsoever about our spiritual leadership will be willing to give our ministries even a second look. There's a middle ground here, one of no compromise on the truth but also of being as considerate of other people's feelings as possible. I would think the issue of what the Bible has to say about authority (of the government, of the pastor-teachers, of men in marriage, etc.) – which is at least a partial stumbling block for many believers these days – would be a better example of this than the Trinity (since it's difficult for me to imagine anyone's feeling being hurt by an enthusiastic defense of that doctrine).

My bottom line as always is that a pastor-teacher should never share doubts. If you don't believe something, then don't teach it. If you do believe it, then teach it. If you're not sure, then figure it out first (the gift, plus preparation, plus the Spirit, plus sweat allows us to be able to do so), remembering that only what is true is beneficial, and only what is believed is useful.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L. 
Question #19:
I agree. 

Re: "It can also be a mistake to put things SO abrasively that only individuals who have suspended all doubts whatsoever about our leadership will be willing to give our ministries even a second look."

I don't feel like I had done this though (although I don't think you were suggesting I did). I completely understand and agree with the statement above. I mean, did you feel I was abrasive? 

In Christ, 
Response #19:
Re: "did you feel I was abrasive?" NOT AT ALL! 

I was using the two extremes in a hypothetical involving someone trying to teach about what the Bible says about authority relationships, such as marriage. The abrasive person would say, "Ladies, you have to submit! That's what the Bible says! Just live with it!", whereas the overly accommodating person might say, "Ladies, this is only something that was written in a time of patriarchy and of course we think about things much differently today" etc. Neither approach is right, in my view. The Bible ALSO tells husbands to love their wives and to treat them with respect as equal heirs in Christ (e.g., Eph.5:28; 1Pet.3:7), the harder "row to hoe" if done correctly. So if we would teach the truth, the truth will straighten out everything and everyone . . . who is willing to listen. So we teach the truth, "even if it hair-lips the pope"; but we don't have to go out of our way to "rub it in" when we know some our listeners might wear it very hard. In the link I referenced on this point, I believe the correct balances has been struck.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #20:
Oh ok, I see. Thanks for your insight with everything here! Admittedly, I have read through Peter #35 a few times. Haven't read it recently. But I understand and agree with your point and everything you've written here. I get it now. 

I thank the Lord for your ministry (even more so after reading this past Saturday postings). Means a lot to me. Been recommending Ichthys to as many people as I can. 

In His grace and power, 
Response #20:
My pleasure!

Thanks much for all your good words . . . and for recommending the site!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
http://ichthys.com/