http://ichthys.com/ 
Eschatology Issues CXLI

Question #1:
Hi Dr. Luginbill,

I've tried to read everything you've written about the Holy Spirit's Restraining Ministry and as usual I find nothing with which I would disagree. So why am I writing? During my studies of the Rapture, I've come across a different way that some have translated the Greek of 2Thessalonians 2 Unmasking the Restrainer of 2 Thess 2 by David M Rogers of www.BibleTruth.cc. Another person that has a similar translation is: WHO OR WHAT IS 'TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY' 2 Thessalonians 2:7? by Roy Page of LOGOS APOSTOLIC CHURCH of GOD. Because the complete articles are very long, I'm asking your feedback on the outlines for "taken out of the way". Unlike you, I'm not able to translate Greek so I can't translate on my own. I read their articles and it's all Greek to me but does make sense to me as presented. As I see it, the 'Lawless one' will already be alive at the questioned time and Satan will take control of him. If you have responded to this before, just point me in the right direction.

Love in Christ, 
Response #1:
Good to hear from you.

Re: "I'm asking your feedback on the outlines for "taken out of the way"." I'm happy to oblige, but I need a little help with what you're asking for. If you have read the two major sections on the Restraining ministry (i.e., in SR 2 and CT 2B at the links), then you know both my "take" and my translation of the passage in 2nd Thessalonians. Here's my expanded translation:
(3) Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For [the 2nd Advent cannot come] unless the Apostasy [the great falling away of the faithful in the first half of the Tribulation] has already occurred, and the man of lawlessness [antichrist] has been revealed, that “son of destruction” (cf. Jn.17:12 of Judas), (4) the one who will oppose and exalt himself against every so-called god and object of worship to such a degree that he will take his seat in the temple of God and represent himself as being God. (5) Don’t you remember that I was telling you these things while I was still with you? (6) Even now you know what it is (i.e., the Spirit) that restrains [antichrist] so that he will be revealed [only] in his own time. (7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work – it is only the Restrainer [who keeps things in check, and will] until He moves out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the Spirit of His mouth, and will annihilate with the appearance of His coming.
2nd Thessalonians 2:3-8
It is true that there are plenty of (incorrect) theories about "who is the restrainer". I remember having to deal with these at seminary; if memory serves, some even wanted to make him the archangel Michael. But only God can control history, and, as evident in the links above, it is the Spirit who is the One who provides divine restraint in very many other situations throughout the plan of God.

In terms of "alternate translations" and "whether or not they are possible", if you supply for me exactly how these individuals translate the verses above, I'll be happy to give you my critique of whether or not it passes muster from the Greek.

Apologies in advance if I've somehow misread your question. Do feel free to write back in any case!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #2:
Yes, I have read SR 2 & CT 2B and as I stated I didn't find anything to which I wouldn't agree. But my question has to deal with the # (6) in your reply. The articles I mentioned are extensive and I don't know how to truncate all of it. I'm sorry Bob but both authors cite several Greek words and their translations. If you open just their first page, you can see the long list of articles. I know this requires a lot of reading and if it's too much I will understand. 

[omitted]

I hope this helps. Love in Christ. 
Response #2:
While I don't have the time or the "band width" to do a complete critique of these extensive materials, I believe I can give you the gist easily enough.

Rogers translates 2nd Thessalonians 2:6 as: "And now you know what is delaying the day of Yahuwah". There are many problems with this troubling enough to invalidate this as a serious attempt to render the text. What we have instead, as is the case in many pro-Pre-Trib apologetic works, is a twisting of the Bible to support their false doctrine. Worst offense here is that there is nothing in the text even resembling "the day of Yahuwah" here. That is made up out of thin air. I could say "the 2028 election" with just as much justification. Also it is clear from any reasonable reading even in English that we are not talking about the second advent but about antichrist. For it says in the very next half of the verse "that he may be revealed in his own time". Note, "he", not "it" – which would be necessary if "day" were the antecedent. And, in fact, "day" in Greek is feminine but the Greek form auton ("he") is masculine (it cannot be fem. or neut.).

Page's problem is one of interpretation. Of course we who understand that there is no pre-Trib rapture do NOT anticipate losing the Holy Spirit. So this is a straw-man argument. I translate the Greek here as "until He moves out of the way", that is "out of the way of restraining antichrist's revelation" thus allowing the devil's final offensive to commence once his antichrist is revealed.

That is the gist of it in both instances. Happy to answer any specific questions you might have. I would also note in passing that the great quantity of "smoke" here obscuring things is also indicative of something. If it were simple, it could be simply explained. Only convoluted twisting of scripture can be of help in supporting false doctrine.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #3:
Hi Bob L, 

Yes sir, I agree with you when it comes to Mr. Roger. What you pointed out clears his translation for me, as a non-Greek reading person. But Mr. Page still leaves me confused when it comes to his translation. He is adamant when it comes to his articles and videos against Pretribulation. I don't think he would, in any way, intend to mislead with his translation. I hope you had the time to watch his short video. I wish you had time to view/read his other articles/videos. Other than maybe this translation I feel you would agree more than disagree with him. (*see below)

I've read several of your thorough and concise answers to questions plus your articles and have you listed in my folder 'Teachers' with several articles. From: 'The Bride of Christ The Seven Millennial Days of Human History: Part 5 of the Satanic Rebellion: Background to the Tribulation'. (to) 'Who will Survive and other Eschatology Questions.' (Over eighty) I spend so much time reading everything you have written that I have a timer set to an hour for each setting. I'm 86 so that's about all I can handle at a time. In fact, I don't know when I'll get to anything else I planned to read. Between morning devotions , your writings, and evening devotions. I don't get much else done. Also, my wife is in a care home, so I visit her each day for a few hours and read her a daily devotional that I have on my cell phone. Unfortunately, she is unable to communicate. 

*I know from reading your responses to others that you get several people who list articles/videos from other authors. No way would you have time to read or listen to all of them. I understand how busy you are and I'm so thankful that you have found the time to respond to me. 

Love in Christ,
Response #3:
I appreciate you, my friend. Thanks for your dedication and for your good words.

On Page, I missed the first time that he is anti-Pre-Trib. As near as I can figure, here is the "operative part" of his translation for the verse in question, 2nd Thessalonians 2:7: "For the mystery of lawlessness is already working: only there is he who now restrains, until he comes into being out of the midst." 

I've read over the snippet several times and it is somewhat unclear to me what Page thinks it is that "comes into being out of the midst", but antichrist appears to be the answer. The objections Page raises to this being the Holy Spirit I dealt with last time and stand by that answer; the objections are not linguistic but interpretative since the Spirit and antichrist are both "he". Page seems to want to make the language here contradict scripture if the Spirit is understood, but it does not. The language merely means "stand out of the way of something so as to stop restraining it"; nothing suggests it has to mean to leave the world altogether. Page's methodology in listing all these passages may make sense to him, but it's not the way language works. Just because a word is translated one way in one place doesn't mean it should be translated exactly the same way in every other place (cf., e.g., bank, bark, and bat in English mean different things in different contexts). Every sentence means what it means in any language, Greek included, and it takes a deep knowledge of any language to know precisely what it means. 

Antichrist cannot be the one who stops restraining since he is the one being restrained.

Apologies to you (and Page) if I've missed the gist of what he is trying to say here somehow. It is a bit confusing (which doesn't bode well for his video presentation).

Hope this is of some help!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #4:
Hi Bob L,

Let me first say I really appreciate the fact that you have again taken the time to respond with your, as usual, well-presented answer. I think the most important thing to remember is that we all believe that we owe it to everyone to refute “Pre-Tribulation”. I hope you will take my word that: You, Mr. Page, myself and even Mr. Rogers would all agree that people have to be forewarned and to do everything to resist the anti-christ, the mark of the beast, and hold out to the end. To read and heed the words in verses such as 1Tim.4; Luke 21:16, Dan. 12:10-13 and many more. To deny the lawless one and not to Apostatize as many will do, due to weak faith/understanding and the lies and pressure put on them by the anti-christ their own families and friends. I'm sorry I cite verses because you are certainly more versed then me.

I listened to and viewed Mr. Pages' video again and what I get from it is that he believes there is no need for a Restrainer for verse 2Thess:2:7 to come to pass .i.e the Apostasy happens, the Lawless one is revealed (by his breaking of the treaty with the Jews) and the Tribulation begins as seen in Daniel 7;10;11 and of course others. With some time period before 2Thess 2:8. (Isa 11:4) as you have pointed out in your 'Seals' commentary. (In the mix, Signs, Seals, Trumpets, The Second Advent and all the Wars, Millennium)
I feel like I should just let this go because no matter what; we've all read the end of the book. "Come Lord Jesus" I've enjoyed this, and I know who to turn to for answers: the Word of God and a much-respected Teacher.

Love in Christ, 
Response #4:
I certainly can agree with your first paragraph here. My main problem with pre-Trib rapture teaching is precisely that it "dumbs down" just such need to prepare for what's coming – because "we won't be here". In terms of "resisting antichrist", I would agree with that as well, just as long as are talking in spiritual terms rather than in kinetic ones: antichrist will come to control the entire world. That would mean complete suppression of any resistance, and believers are never told to physically resist him; all "resistance" in scripture is seen to come from God directly or through His chosen agents, the two witnesses; believers demonstrate their resistance through refusing to take the mark or worship the beast, and through being willing to accept the consequences.
(3) Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For [the 2nd Advent cannot come] unless the Apostasy [the great falling away of the faithful in the first half of the Tribulation] has already occurred, and the man of lawlessness [antichrist] has been revealed, that "son of destruction" (cf. Jn.17:12 of Judas), (4) the one who will oppose and exalt himself against every so-called god and object of worship to such a degree that he will take his seat in the temple of God and represent himself as being God. (5) Don’t you remember that I was telling you these things while I was still with you? (6) Even now you know what it is (i.e., the Spirit) that restrains [antichrist] so that he will be revealed [only] in his own time. (7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work – it is only the Restrainer [who keeps things in check, and will] until He moves out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the Spirit of His mouth, and will annihilate with the appearance of His coming.
2nd Thessalonians 2:3-8
The restraining of the Holy Spirit in 2nd Thessalonians chapter two has to do with holding back the lawless one (as is clear from most other English version too), and that means antichrist. All attempts to alter this clear sense stem from other agendas. It doesn't matter if they are well-meant. The truth is important here. That revelation of the beast comes at the beginning of the Tribulation, not in the middle (when the treaty is broken); the middle is the beginning of the Great Tribulation and with it the Great Persecution.

It's not an accident that nearly all of these confused interpreters suffer from not understanding that Revelation is largely chronological and presents its information just as any other narrative would (i.e., there are flashbacks to fill in details, but the forward progress of events is completely coherent). So one cannot just pick and choose pieces to support pet theories. Rather, one has to let the Bible speak, and bring together everything it has to say when moving forward in the book. That is what the CT series does (in my opinion). The Lord is the judge of that, of course.

Thanks for your good words, my friend! They are greatly appreciated.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #5:
Hi Bob L

This has been great, Thanks again. I'm deleting the two articles/videos that started this whole thing. I've never doubted that we were speaking about the Holy Spirit's restraint. I should have done that with your first answer. I'll still save parts of this email as there is much information I can use later. Back to hours of reading/listening. Ichthys has been a blessing, and I often cite it. I'm not always the sharpest tack in the box. This is my last email on this subject.

Love in Christ,
Response #5:
You are MOST welcome, my friend, and do feel free to write me back about this or anything else.

You seem awfully sharp to me!

Looking forward to meeting you in New Jerusalem.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #6:
Hey Dr. L.,

Long time no chat. IF you have time for a call, would love to catch up, and also ask you a few questions! 

I am working on a project on Ephesians, especially using the legal/historical household stuff from Greco-Roman culture to help people better appreciate the book and what it is saying.

Would love input from you! 
Response #6:
Good to hear from you – hoping all is well.

I'm more of an email person than a phone person. I'm happy to answer any Bible questions via email. If I may ask, what's the venue for the project?

I noticed a couple of things in the piece and so here a few links you might find helpful:
Adoption
Sealing
Best to you and yours in the Lord.

In Him,

Bob L.
Question #7:
Hello Dr,

It’s nice to hear from you. I meant to reply back earlier and was overcome by events or probably just forgetful. Anyway, can you tell me where I can find the Seal of God from Revelation 9 elaborated on in your writings? I’m sure you must cover it. This must be very important for us to know. Maybe it’s the most important thing for us to know. Without the Seal, well you know, very bad. 

I hope you are well.

Thank you for your free material. 
v/s
Response #7:
No worries – good to hear from you!

This is covered at the link in CT 2B under "The Sealing of the 144,000: Revelation 7:1-8".

This is a special sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists.

But we present day believers have nothing to fear on this score just because we are not going to be sealed with them. That, after all, would constitute a "RE-sealing" as we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit (see the link), which seal marks us out as God's special possession – and will continue to do so should it be our personal lot to go through the Tribulation:
(21) Now the One who has given us security in regard to Christ together with you and who has anointed us (i.e., with the Spirit) is God – (22) [Yes, He] has also sealed us and given us His pledge of the Spirit in our hearts [of eternal life].
2nd Corinthians 1:21-22
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #8:
Thank you! I will review that section but basically what I think you are saying is the persons protected, with the Seal of God, from scorpions in Rev Ch 9 are the same 144,000 persons from the 12 tribes of Israel sealed in Rev Ch 7.

Thanks as always!
Response #8:
Yes, that's right, along with the rest of us who are sealed already (this painful judgment is meant for unbelievers not for those who are following the Lord). 

*It's also important to keep in mind that both sets of Tribulation judgments, the warning ones (trumpets) and the retributive ones (bowls), are aimed at unbelievers, not believers. In the same way that the ten plagues against Egypt were aimed at the Egyptians but the Israelites were spared, so we have every right as believers to have faith and confidence that God's judgments aimed at those who are persecuting us are not going to harm us but only them.

That doesn't mean that the Tribulation will not be very difficult for believers, of course. In addition to the general, negative effects of all of the trends that will be abroad during those times, there is of course also the pressure of many of our brothers and sisters turning against the faith (the Great Apostasy) and also the worldwide persecution of the believers which antichrist and his false prophet will launch during its second half (the Great Persecution). But it does mean that we believers ought to be able to face that terrible time without excessive fear. For God will be with us no matter what. And if He is with us, who can stand against us (Rom.8:31)?

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #9:
Hi Bob L, 

I now spend so much time on ichthys.com (which I'm enthralled with) that I'm not sure when I'll get to other articles or sites I want to visit. I was doing a study about the 'Rapture'. (My church has a new Pastor and he's a diehard Pre-Trib.) When reading the article THE RAPTURE PRINCIPLE: Is It Before, During, or After? - HubPages ; ichthys.com was cited. At present, I open Eschatology: the Study of the Last Things: Part 2B of Bible Basics: Essential Doctrines of the Bible (ichthys.com) and use the Audio PDF 'Read Aloud' because it's easy to follow and easy to get back to where you may have left off. 

When scrolling through the MP3 audio files I noticed the Coming Tribulation part 4: The Great Tribulation , but I didn't, for some reason, equate the two readings. So, once I finish where I'm at now, I will go to Coming Tribulation part 4 for further insight. I also have several of your articles in my 'Teachers' folder that deal with the Rapture; plus. Your commentaries have been a blessing, and I can't thank you enough. I deleted some of the original email because I didn't think it necessary to send it all again. I saved a copy.

With Love in Christ, 
Response #9:
Thanks for the background, ! And for the good words (much appreciated).

Here are a few more "Rapture" links, just in case you missed something:
The 'Rapture' and other Eschatological Issues
Eschatology Issues XXIV: the 'Rapture' et al.
The pre-Trib 'Rapture': so called 'imminence' and other false proofs refuted
Dangers of the Pre-Trib Rapture False Teaching
When is the Rapture?
Parousia
The Origin and the Danger of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture Theory
No Rapture
Three False Doctrines that Threaten Faith
Misplaced Faith in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
The Resurrection of the Lamb's Bride (in CT 5)
Do feel free to write any time.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #10:
I had most of them. Thanks for the others. I'm compiling a document titled: 'Ichthys.com' to pass on to some members of my church (Baptist). Sort of a 'How to use and navigate' and what there is on the site. It's already seven pages long. First, I will have to make a couple changes due to our back and forth and Coming Tribulation part 4. Thanks for the invite to write and thanks for the time you've spent with me. I use the "Topical index of Bible study subjects at Ichthys, Bible Study for Spiritual Growth" and find many answers there. God bless you for putting so much time and effort into Ichthys. It's really amazing and I'm sure a labor of love.

With Love in Christ, 
Response #10:
Thanks!

Ichthys is large and does present "navigation problems", it's true. I do have an FAQ on that (at the link), but anything you do to help others in this regard is greatly appreciated!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #11:
Hi Robert Can you do the bible study on the fourth. I just found out a friend of mine passed just before Christmas and his funeral is on the 4th at 11.am
Response #11:
Good to hear from you.

I'm not sure what you are asking. I post weekly, sometime on Saturday, for readers to have it available on Sunday. So this week's posting went up yesterday for viewing today. Unless something major happens, I'll be posting on the 3rd (somewhat late in the day usually) for viewing on the 4th – and the posting stays up all week on the emails page and is always available after that too (listing is on the "prior postings" list on the email page at the link). So you will be able to see it / get to it regardless.

Apologies if I didn't understand correctly what you are asking. Do feel free to write me back.

Sorry to hear about your friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #12:
Hello Bob. Due to my failing eyes I sent that message to the incorrect Bob, my apologies. Let me wish you a very happy New Year. May 2025 be your best year ever. 

I do have a question. Who repopulates the world during the millennium. 

I so enjoy your website.

Blessings 
Response #12:
No worries about that!

On your question, I deal with this in CT 6: Last things (at the link). In a nutshell, since believers are resurrected at Christ's return, and since all who took the mark are eliminated in the baptism of fire (link), and since the population as a whole was greatly reduced by the ravages of the Tribulation (the judgments, the Great Persecution, the slaughter of Armageddon, etc.), the initial millennial population may be very small. There will be many Jews who did not take the mark (and who also did not respond to the 144,000); there will be many young people who did not take the mark because they were not yet at the age of accountability. But even if only a few million survive, we can expect under the perfect conditions of the rule of Christ for the population to rebound past present levels in a very short time (link). Just think how quickly the world's population recovered after the great flood – and the time thereafter was no Millennium.

Thanks for the good words – here's wishing you and yours a blessed 2025 as well!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #13:
[omitted]
Response #13:
I was wondering if you were OK. I'm sorry to hear about this rough patch, but I am proud of you weathering it! I will continue to keep you and __'s health in my daily prayers. I think it's great that you are both going to get some specialist oversight. At the very least, perhaps they can give some insight in what the actual problems are. Sometimes it's the information we get from "doc" that turns out to be the most valuable service.

I'm also happy to hear about the forward progress for your business. Keeping that in prayer too.

We know that whatever we have done in Christ's name won't lose its reward, so even if you went down some unprofitable trails, as in the case of the unknown response, I'm sure some of these things were "for the good". Not that I'm saying that this approach of befriending unbelievers is the right one, especially if that is not where your ministry is supposed to be focused. Through technology we can reach people we would not be able to otherwise (as in the case of Ichthys), so it's not necessary to be face to face. Also, before rhapsodizing about how wonderful it would be to have believers in your area, there are plenty of them over here, and if you think trying to talk sense to unbelievers is frustrating, try it with believers who are in full-blown Laodicean mode and convinced that YOU are the one with the "problem".

In terms of the Tribulation, it is a daunting prospect, but we can't get to the resurrection without it. So I prefer to focus on the good at the end of it rather than the trouble in the seven years of it. At least we will know about "how long" we've got to wait at that point. Also, we must remember that many of the things that scare people about the Tribulation are the judgments (trumpets and bowls), but these are directed at unbelievers, not us; we are going to be protected from these judgments much like the Israelites were during the ten Egyptian plagues. And won't it be wonderful to see the 144,000 and Moses and Elijah at work! It may be too that this will be the time that many of us who've been wondering about our gifts and ministries will find them blooming into full flower when at least SOME lukewarm Christians recognize that the time has finally come to "get red hot" for the Lord. So while no one is looking forward to it, there's nothing lasting in this world in the meantime. Jesus will lead us through that "valley of the death shadow", to the "table prepared" for us on the other side. 

Thanks for your prayers too, my friend. I've been under the weather with something which seems Covid-like for about a week. I've managed to keep up all that's necessary including classes. Hoping to be totally back in the pink soon.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #14:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,

I am soooo happy to get your email so I can write you again, and pick your brain for excellent information. I just wrote a paper which I show below, that I would very much like your comments on. Here is the document:

Genesis Chapter 1 verses 1 and 2 and verses 9 and 10.

Here are my thoughts:

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

The following is another interpretation of: Genesis 1 and 2.

“When God began to create heaven and earth, and the earth then was water and waste and darkness over the deep and God’s breath hovering over the waters.

Comments: It seems too me that Genesis 1 and 2 quoted above are indeed referring to the [Pre-Adamic] earth that was already there before God began to create the current earth, or the second earth as I would call it.

Genesis 9 and 10.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and “let the” dry the land appear”; and it was so.10 God called the dry land earth…

The following is another interpretation of the above verses:

“And God said, Let the water under the heavens be gathered in one place so that the dry land will appear,”and so it was. “And God called the dry land Earth and the gathering of waters Seas, and God saw that it was good”.

Comments: It appears to me that the dry land is referring to the earth that existed before Adam, and it appears again in this verse, by God’s word.

God said “Let the dry land appear: because it was covered with water, and perhaps that was the way the pre-Adamic earth was destroyed?

These verses strongly support the theology of an earth that existed before Adam, as noted above, and the scriptures quoted in Genesis 1, beginning in Verse 3 begins the re-creation of the destroyed earth referenced in verses 1 and 2.

After these two verses 1 and 2, the Bible starts with the word “then”, which I think is also important.

I would really appreciate your knowledge and correction if needed.

Great blessings be poured out on you abundantly,

Your friend,
Response #14:
Glad we didn't fall out of contact!

It is certainly true that the seven days are restoring the heavens and the earth that previously existed. The original creation proclaimed in verse one is followed by a strong break in verse two explaining that the original blessed creation had been marred (we are not told here the details of Satan's revolt, but that was the reason). 

"Then", you are correct, begins the relating of God's reconstruction of the heavens and the earth so as to make them habitable for mankind, God's answer to Satan, focused on the first Adam but with the ultimate purpose of summing all things up in the last Adam, our Savior, Jesus Christ. 

Most of the details about this can be found in SR 2: The Genesis Gap (at the link).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:
Hi Dr L,

May I ask how your garden is and how you are?

I gave in and read a book I have been wanting to read Unhumans: The Secret History of the Communists Revolutions. A subpoint that came up over and over was putting trust in the wrong people, which of course goes back to focusing on His Word (which tells you to trust in God, not man, in fact I am pretty sure it says specifically not to trust in man). Also, over and over, Cain kept coming into my head during the descriptions. And over and over if people would focus on the Truth it would resolve many of these issues. You would recognize the lies and the Cains then. I mean if someone lies to you multiple times and you still put trust in them, or if you just automatically put trust in someone you have never met or barely met, I don't know what to say, even from a secular perspective. 

But for believers, the conclusion is, as always, focus on God :) It is comforting to realize that is the answer.

I hope you are well, please take care,
Response #15:
Doing well! The garden is into its fall glory and the butterflies are just starting to show up in numbers (a light year on that, however). The nasturtiums in particular like this time of year when it's a bit cooler and they are supplying a good deal of the color.

Thanks for the excellent book report! It is certainly true that putting one's hopes in any political movement is, for a Christian, a very bad bargain. 

As the old sign said, "In God we trust – all others pay cash".

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #16:
Just one more thing! Just that it points out how focusing on the Truth will teach you many things! One of the things often pointed about is the brazen lying. But even this is similar to Cain. I mean you think it is a bit of a shock how brazen the lying is to their own families and countrymen, but Cain lied to God directly (Gen.4:9).
Response #16:
It is certainly true that believers who get to spiritual maturity through learning and applying the truth naturally see all these matters from a better, higher perspective. For one thing, we know that none of "this" down here on earth is going to last all that much longer, whereas unbelievers, even morally upright ones, naturally function as if this world were all there is and as if they could fix it if only they worked hard enough politically. 

We believers know just how shortsighted that is, because only through having enough believers being "salt" will God intervene on behalf of a nation (link). Otherwise, this whole world is in the lap of the evil one (1Jn.5:19).

Wishing you a good week ahead!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #17:
Christ is telling you to prepare for the rapture in the scripture. Not the tribulation when the world will experience the wrath of God. The reason the world will experience this is for the salvation of many unbelievers. I believe it will occur near 2026. We will be gone for the tribulation afterward which lasts seven years. Believers who were raptured will return with Christ for setting up his millennial quite possibly 2033.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

This describes believers being caught up with Jesus Christ in the clouds at the rapture when the tribulation commences.

I don't wish to argue here. Just stating why I believe what I believe. We will have to agree just to disagree. Thanks for reaching out to me. It is greatly appreciated.

I lost my brother earlier this year and it was very rough.

Take Care
Response #17:
Sorry to hear about your loss. I will say a prayer for your comfort.

I don't wish to argue either, but this is a very important issue since the false pre-Trib rapture doctrine is filling so many with false hope and will leave so many believers completely unprepared for what is soon to take place.

Many years ago I likewise believed in this false doctrine – because it had been taught to me by someone I greatly respected and because mostly every good Christian I knew believed it too. But when I started reading the Bible seriously for myself, it soon became apparent that this "doctrine" is not true.

Re: "Christ is telling you to prepare for the rapture in the scripture." I notice you do not have a verse citation. No doubt that is because nowhere does Jesus tell us to prepare for a "rapture"; He never ever mentions any resurrection prior to the one resurrection of the Church which occurs as demonstrated at His parousia, His second advent return (see the link). That is what is described in Matthew 24 and 1st Thessalonians 4 and everywhere else where the resurrection is mentioned, such as this passage:
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1st Corinthians 15:51-52 NIV
Once again we have the trumpet blast as in the other two passages cited above, and once again we have some changed/resurrected before death while others are raised from the dead.

Re: "Not the tribulation when the world will experience the wrath of God." The unbelieving world will indeed experience God's wrath during the Great Tribulation; that is the purpose of the bowl judgments; the trumpet judgments are for warning against following antichrist. But the wrath comes NOT to believers but to unbelievers on account of their persecuting believers in the Great Persecution (see the link).

Re: "The reason the world will experience this is for the salvation of many unbelievers." Not only is this not stated in scripture, but actually scripture says exactly the opposite:
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Revelation 9:20 NIV
Lastly, regarding 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, here is the passage in the KJV:
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
This is indeed the "proof passage" that is always adduced to demonstrate that there is a resurrection before the Tribulation begins. I find this odd indeed because there is nothing at all in the passage to suggest that we are talking about anything else here than our Lord's return. How many times does He return? Only once! Never ever in scripture are there two returns described. There is only one "coming of the Lord", one parousia (the technical term used here and elsewhere in the NT for the second advent; see the link).

While this passage says nothing about the Tribulation being avoided, or about any return to heaven with the Lord thereafter, it does talk about the "clouds" and the "trumpet" and the "archangel" in common with the other two passages cited above. So while there is absolutely nothing in this passage to even suggest that it happens before the Tribulation, everything it does say lines up perfectly with those other passages which are clearly after the Tribulation. And there is only one resurrection of the Church.
(23) But each [will be resurrected] in his own echelon. Christ [is the] first-fruits (i.e., the initial person and echelon of resurrection). Next [will be] those belonging to Christ at His coming (i.e., all believers at the 2nd Advent). (24) Then the end [of human history – the resurrection of millennial believers], when He will hand the Kingdom over to the Father, after He has brought an end to all rule, all power, and all authority (i.e., hostile human and angelic control). (25) For He must rule until He has placed all His enemies under His feet.
1st Corinthians 15:23-25
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18:
I'm sorry but I still disagree.

Have a Nice Day.
Response #18:
That's OK.  We'll find out for certain soon enough.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #19:
Well, we can agree here about finding out soon enough.

I really feel he will be returning soon.

The world has lost it's mind.
Response #19:
True words.
Question #20:
Do I remember correctly you writing of the possible start of the Tribulation coming in the fall and possibly Rosh Hashanah? That seems reasonable to me. Don't take valuable time from more pressing concerns to respond.

I have both "The Satanic Rebellion" and "The Coming Tribulation" downloaded but my poor old eyes can't handle large amounts of screen time. I have cataracts and one of the two types, the more aggressive, is in my right eye. I have scheduled the surgery (which scares the daylights out of me) but if I don't do it, life will never be as I remember it. The earliest I could get was later August but the ophthalmologist comes highly recommended, so I'll live with it. If I ask questions that you've already answered, this is why.

I pray all is well with you and yours up there in L'ville.

In our Lord,
Response #20:
Yes, that is correct. The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) represents the commencement of the Tribulation; The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) represents the commencement of the Great Tribulation; Booths/Tabernacles (Sukkot) represents the millennial reign of Christ.

The half hour of silence in heaven (Rev.8:1) following the opening of the seventh seal which allows the Tribulation to begin represents the shift of its start from spring to fall, one half year, to line up the fulfillment of actual events with the Jewish calendar. In other words, since our Lord was resurrected in the spring, however many years there are for the Church Age (2,000) would otherwise come to an end in the spring. We get a half year reprieve with the result that the Tribulation commences precisely where it is represented in the calendar symbolism (link). 

As to the precise day on which this will occur, it is impossible to say because the Jewish calendar presently in use was developed during the middle ages and its correspondence to the practices in Judea prior to the destruction of Jerusalem is tenuous (and even in Jesus' day it is questionable if they "got it right" to the day, because, after all, there are two different days for Passover during "passion week", with the Lord and His disciples celebrating the "last supper" on the day before the crucifixion and the religious crowd who crucified Him doing so that next evening). 

Nevertheless, we can say with certainty that some time during September/October of "the year" the events described in Revelation chapter 8 verse 5 will occur and that will make it plain that the Tribulation has begun. 

So we don't have to worry about "certain Bible teachers" who may have (innocently) calculated the exact year incorrectly: we will know when it starts (sometime in fall).

Sorry to hear about the cataracts. My eye dr. tells me I have them too, but as yet they are not serious enough to have to take any action. Didn't know there were two types. Please keep me in the loop on this. I'll keep you in prayer, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #21:
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the explanation. It seems that, in addition to cataracts, fuzzy memory is another curse of old age. It's been said, the greatest shock in a man's life is old age. I will attest to that.

I remembered some from CT that you pointed out. I did read CT which seems a long time ago. I didn't remember your comments on Rosh Hashanah, It seems like the Tribulation will start next Thursday, the world has become so evil. Maybe it always has been, but in my lifetime, I've not seen evil like this.

Thanks for your patience with me and thank you for your prayers,

In our Lord Jesus,
Response #21:
It's my pleasure, my friend.

In terms of memory, no one could be expected to remember everything in the CT series (or any of these series) in one reading (or even in several). I even re-read these materials systematically myself (currently just finishing up another run through of CT, actually).

Re: "It seems like the Tribulation will start next Thursday" I would be fine with that! It would mean we'd only have seven years left to have to slog through. Hard as they'll be, sooner is better than later as far as I'm concerned. But we have to take whatever the Lord gives us – in the end it always turns out to be a blessing. So we hold on until the end!

Thanks for your prayers too, my friend!

Here's wishing you a pleasant week ahead.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #22:
Hi Bob,

I read as much as I could before my eyes gave out. I'll finish later. I have the whole BB series. When I get my eyes remodeled in 5 (!!) months, I'll start with BB. I have to admit. being the skeptic I am, I probably would not have believed it either.

I have such a reading backlog, my days will probably end before I finish.

In our Lord,
Response #22:
If you think it takes a long time to read all this material . . .

Sorry you such a long wait for the surgery. A good friend of mine got her eyes done last year or so and said it made a remarkable difference.

Keeping you in my prayers my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #23:
I appreciate your prayers, Bob. Everyone I've talked to has had similar reactions to cataract removal. This ophthalmologist I'm scheduled with has an impeccable reputation and having talked with him, I'm inclined to trust him, which is very difficult for me. I have to admit, it will be nice to read again. it now takes me three episodes to read your week's postings. (An interesting post this week.)

I know it takes much longer to write what you have than read it. I once thought I could be a writer, but I learned it was grueling work, so I abandoned that pursuit. (As you can tell from my emails:)

It will also be nice to read what you've already answered without feeling guilty for pestering you for what you've already gone to the trouble of answering. I suspect my days will end before I get through my growing bucket list of reading. I can't think of a more enjoyable way to end my days on this ball of mud.

Thanks for your prayers and patience. You and yours remain in my prayers.

In our Lord,
Response #23:
I'll be praying for your operation to go well.

Please never feel guilty about writing me. Even if you do/have read something pertinent at Ichthys, that doesn't mean that all of your questions and concerns have necessarily been answered. There is a value – for me and you and anyone else who'll read the post – in hearing the question and the answer from some different angle.

Thanks for your prayers, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
http://ichthys.com/