"The Local Church and Personal Ministry  VI"

Question #1:  
Dear Sir:

I just stumbled on your site and have a very serious question for you. I have never believed in the pre-tribulation rapture. However, I cannot seem to find a church that does not teach pre-trib! 

Any suggestions on how to find one without visiting every church in my area?
Response #1:   
Good to make your acquaintance.

When you say, "I cannot seem to find a church that does not teach pre-trib!", that is not surprising. In fact, I'd be surprised if you were able to find a church which teaches much of anything . . . anything true and in enough depth and detail to grow spiritually. That is how Ichthys came to be on the internet – and you are welcome here any time.

There are also MP3s audio files of the major studies (at the link).

Additionally, there is an Ichthys "forum", where a number of like-minded believers get together on line on pretty much a weekly basis for mutual encouragement and spiritual growth. If you have any interest in this, I can ask the moderator to send you an invite.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #2: 
Hello Mr. Luginbill,

I have been doing a lot of praying and studying. In seeking some teachings regarding some 'different' conclusions I have come to, I was surprised that many of my 'different' conclusions have been echoed on your site. Obviously with further clarification!

I have been reading much of your information and testing it. Your work is very edifying and thorough. Likewise your kindness, humility and care in each question sent to you is encouraging. 

I have shared one of your articles with my husband and he studied it last evening and agreed with it. 

I am coming to you because I am struggling very badly (for years now ) with some serious things regarding the scriptures and my assurance.

My husband I have not found a church yet, but we are looking into doctrines to see where we would best grow and be at peace. We are ready to move anywhere, given that is okay for us to.

We've sought after discipleship for years to little avail.

Anyways, the issues I face are usually met with me, when I finally reach out, to pastors who are not really available, ( even at the churches we were in ), little help from 'elders' and most of the time if I try and reach out to a local pastor they often don't know off the bat or need to be reminded of the scriptures I am asking about, their answers are not in a way that I can really understand, given thought to all passages and angles.

I am telling you this because I am struggling (and with my husband's desire and blessing ) we, in a way, are reaching out to you for some help if you are available. You seem to take questions seriously. 

I need to go thoroughly with things and I have been embarrassed about my questions, but pride aside, I am seeking help, if it is not a sin to ask for help or reveal my lack of wisdom.

Would you be able to help walk me through a list of things? Do you prefer corresponding through email or phone or Zoom? We are even willing to come visit. 

You really don't know how hard it has been to find anyone who has 'checked out' so well.

If not, I still appreciate you and the great service and sacrifice you have given.
Response #2:  
Good to make your acquaintance. And thanks much for the good words.

If you're reaching "different conclusions" from some of the churches you have been attending, it's probably because you've been reading the Bible seriously. Most Christians nowadays in our Laodicean era are not at all interested in spiritual growth. They go to church to socialize, to be entertained, to relieve guilt, feeling that an occasional "nod to God" is enough, then they get on with their lives. 

For believers who truly are trying to put Jesus Christ at the center of everything – as He really is the center of everything of course – finding a church which is genuinely teaching the truth AND doing so in sufficient depth and quantity to produce actual spiritual growth is, nowadays, almost impossible. Even ones that have nice sounding doctrinal statements usually don't actually do much teaching of the truth in an orthodox and substantive way – which is what is needed to grow. That is why this ministry is on the internet, by the way.

There's no need to be embarrassed about asking questions! Many of the answers are probably somewhere at Ichthys (it is a large site and does take a little time to learn how to navigate; see FAQ #6: Navigation: I am having trouble finding what I need on this site. Can you help? at the link). And I am always willing to take Bible questions from folks like yourself who are genuinely seeking the truth. I do this over email, however, not via phone or Zoom, etc. There is also an Ichthys forum where a number of readers and prospective pastor-teachers get together on line to discuss things on a regular basis (I could ask the moderator to send you an invite if interested).

Re: "You really don't know how hard it has been to find anyone who has 'checked out' so well." I've gotten a lot of such reports over the years and have my own experience as well, so, believe me, I do have a very good idea of the "spiritual desert" out there when it comes to good Bible teaching . . . although I'm thrilled to hear that I checked out! 

You're welcome at Ichthys any time. Looking forward to your questions.

In Jesus,

Bob Luginbill
Question #3:   
How exactly do I pray without ceasing without it being vain repetition? I still struggle with vile images and thoughts in my head, and absolutely cannot bear the agony of them anymore, I still don't pray anywhere near as much as I should, and am hoping praying more will help with this...please pray for me in this regard too
Response #3:    
I am praying for you, my friend. A lot of Christians have similar issues (see the link). We get better at "holding the high ground of the heart" as we get better at fighting this fight in general through spiritual growth and application.

I will note that "you can't beat something with nothing" – meaning that you need the "ammo" to fight this fight, a sufficient store of truth in your heart that you have mastered and believed, ready for the Spirit to use to help you in this struggle (Gal.5:16-25). So it's my duty as a pastor-teacher to encourage you also to keep growing spiritually through accessing the teachings at Ichthys (preferably on a daily basis) . . . in addition to praying.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #4:   
[omitted: fears about being cancelled for saying something meant innocently but taken otherwise in the present socio-political climate]
Response #4:    　
Nowadays a person does indeed have to be careful in what we say . . . and to whom we say it. Very careful. A few verses come to mind:
The righteous choose their friends carefully, but the way of the wicked leads them astray.
Proverbs 12:26 NIV

The one who has knowledge restrains his words, and one who keeps a cool head is a person of understanding.
Proverbs 17:27 CSB

Do not speak to fools, for they will scorn your prudent words.
Proverbs 23:9 NIV

So justice is driven back, and righteousness stands at a distance; truth has stumbled in the streets, honesty cannot enter. Truth is nowhere to be found, and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey.
Isaiah 59:14-15a NIV

For I know that your transgressions are many and your sins are numerous. You oppress the righteous man, you take bribes, and you turn the innocent away [from justice] at the gate. So the prudent man keeps quiet at [such a] time [as] this, for it is an evil time.
Amos 5:12-13 (cf. Matt.7:6)
We believers should at all times be wary of casting our pearls before swine. In this day and age, when language has become weaponized to such an insane degree, it really does behoove us to listen carefully to the Spirit and follow His guidance assiduously. Hard to do if a person is not spiritually mature and growing ever closer to the Lord. So, as always, the only solution to this problem is spiritual growth.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #5:   
Hi Bob,

We have had several conversations of late discussing upcoming plans for the in-person Bible studies we hope to hold at the house. We now have the living room set up with seating for ~15, projector and all, so what is left now is acquiring the people. That's what this email is about.

As I've mentioned before, thus far, I've held back on many other things in my life until the ministry is launched (for example, many social things, romantic relationships). I've also held off on getting very involved in any local church stuff until I have a place to lead people = the website, once it has been launched. At least that has been the idea.

Given that things are likely to finally materialize there soon, that brings us to the question of how to locate and invite parties that may be legitimately interested in our Bible study. Of course, numbers are not the main focus, but it is true that to some degree, we will likely need to get involved in some stuff locally to find local people to attend the Bible study, right?

I can't recall if I've emailed you about this specifically in so many words, but the big question now is how to best go about doing this (i.e., finding local people and getting them involved in our Bible study) in a godly way. Some things that we've already identified and discussed:

1) We need to be careful to not do some form of hostile takeover in whatever local church groups we get involved with. I personally do have a hard time keeping my mouth shut in group settings (when "teacher mode" switches on, I always have urges to speak), and have historically tended to take over most Bible studies I've ever been in, whether I had leadership status de jure or not. I am aware of this, and how that is not a good idea generally, even if my beef with Laodicean practices may be completely legitimate. In other words, the primary goal here ought not be to "steal" people from churches and try to brainwash them unto our ways instead. Rather, after a sufficiently long period of time that we get to know people and they get to know us, we begin inviting people (on the basis of our personal relationships with them) to attend some of the meetings we have, if we think they might be interested. Not so much to intentionally wean them off of the other fellowship, but merely to offer another opportunity if they are interested.

2) In this vein, we plan to have all our meetings on Fridays and Saturdays, when people are less likely to have conflicts with other Christian things they might be involved with. This is not so much because we personally think the other Christian things people may be involved in are so worthy of their time, but because this is a realistic concession to the fact that things will work best if we do not set out from day one to force people to make a mutually exclusive choice. Statistically speaking, we are more likely to be successful this way.

3) So as not to as rapidly kick the beehive, I will take the time to actively measure how freely I may speak in certain Bible studies/small groups local to us. If someone else clearly has teaching authority within a group, and me sharing my thoughts unfiltered would not be welcome (i.e., someone else actually holds the reins such that me talking in teacher-mode is not just "another Bible study member sharing what the passage means to them"), then it will be harder to work within those groups, and I may try to actively preferentially avoid them specifically, so as to not run afoul of the "usurping authority" and "accusations of poaching" pitfalls.

Why I am even bothering to ask about all this is because I can see how the optics are not the best here. It is true, after all, that I would not otherwise bother getting involved with many of these local groups if I did not want to find people who are interested to jumpstart our own Bible study at the house. I have somewhat of an agenda in participating, in other words. Not that I won't try my best to serve as long as I am involved in these places (using the teaching gifts I have been given there just as much as with our endeavors in the house church itself), but the facts remain as they are nonetheless.

Specific questions I'd like your take on, 1 through 5:

1) Would you disagree with us going to other fellowships' meetings with the ulterior motive in some sense of finding people to join our Bible study at the house (in a way, let me emphasize again, that is not completely mutually exclusive with said other fellowships)? To put things very bluntly, do you think it is actually unbiblical for a Bible teacher to go to another believing institution to find believers for his own flock (in the way I have described above, mind you, not in some of the obviously problematic ways)?

2) In the early Church, many local churches were started directly through evangelism (cf. the early chapters of Acts, and also cf. the Great Commision in Matthew 28:18-20). It seems doubtful to me that completely evangelizing our own flock (i.e., building it through evangelism alone) is what is expected of us now (especially for those of us who are teachers proper, not evangelists by gifting), but what do you think of the idea in our present place and time? Some of that was unique to that beginning period, right?

3) Even though we are not having formal Sunday services, our meetings on Fridays and Saturdays will take up the time of those attending. Does this mean we are directly challenging the churches from whom we are recruiting because these times are when these folks might otherwise serve their other communities? It seems to me like them learning the truth in depth will be much more beneficial to said communities than whatever else they might do with the time (like... what exactly? Taking care of the church buildings? Doing physical actions like volunteering at soup kitchens for church PR?).

4) We might imagine the response that pastors of these other churches might have. If one of them were to say "I have spent years taking care of my flock's needs, but now you guys are coming into my church, taking believers from my flock away on the two nights where they have the most free time to do service for our community. Do you not think yourself wrong?" We might answer something to the effect of "What is more important than learning and growing in the Truth of the Word of God? Why are we focusing on church membership and who belongs to whom anyway, when we are all part of the same body? What is this 'service' you speak of?" and more or less brush off any possessiveness on their part? Because the only thing that is truly important is that God's truth is taught substantively? (And, moreover, it is not like we are ever forcing anyone's hand or encouraging them directly to cut ties with their other fellowships, even if teachings about Laodicea might lead people in that direction eventually).

5) Finally, what do you think of trying to partner with some local church to teach within a pre-existing authority framework? If I were legitimately able to find a local fellowship that embraced my teaching without muzzling me completely or putting me on a leash, I would be overjoyed at the chance to serve. However, my rough estimation of the probability of this actually happening (even more specifically, local to me right now) is near zero, which is why I have made the preparations I have for building something of our own. But if the recruitment operations are actually a big enough issue "ethics-wise" (for lack of a better phrase), is this the only other option? I would think "new wine cannot be contained in old skins" is a strong enough argument for us to completely cross this off the list, but I just want to be sure.

So, to sum things up, it kind of seems to me like it is necessary for us to do something like what I described in the section above the questions = going to other Christian fellowships to find people who might also be interested in our new Bible study that we are starting.

This is so because:

Evangelizing the entirety of a new flock from unbelievers, and Teaching within a pre-existing church, given Laodicea's state at present both seem like completely unworkable options on their own, taken on balance.

If you wouldn't mind commenting on the five questions above, I'd appreciate it. Just to make sure we are in fact headed in a prudent direction in this.

Open to any and all suggestions.

Your brother in Christ,
Response #5:    
First, hearty congratulations on getting to this point! I realize that you have spent a great deal of time and effort, love and devotion to the Lord on all these projects. I know He will honor what you're doing.

On your five questions:

1) I would be very uncomfortable visiting other churches for converts. If one approached the pastor and presented one's own venue as a supplement and he was agreeable, I suppose that would be OK, but I don't think it likely to end well. Such an approach might cause disruption in the other church, and we certainly don't want to be responsible for that. After all, you can't control what some of these visitors might say and do, especially when still in a state of spiritual immaturity. They might take to "correcting" that pastor and trying to change that church. 

2) There are some significant differences between the situation in the apostolic age and today. For one thing, these efforts were led by apostles mainly, men with supreme authority in the Church, and there are none of those today. A pastor-teacher's authority extends to his own flock only. Secondly, Paul and co. made it a practice to go to the Jewish synagogues first, not only a natural place to go but a method which they were undoubtedly led by the Spirit to pursue. Many of the individuals therein were fruit ripe for the picking, placed there in the plan of God, Jewish individuals ready to be saved but needing the gospel message. In other words, this was an important part of the transition of the Church from a nation/race centered approach to an international/all-comers approach designed by God to take place through the agency of the apostles (see the link). 

In terms of evangelism today, in contrast to the situation in, say, Athens, when Paul spoke there, it would be a very rare individual here in the US today who has not heard of Jesus Christ and Christianity. On top of that, most unbelievers here today, I would imagine, have some notion of what it's all about, even if warped. The more their picture is warped because of growing up, e.g., Roman Catholic, the more problematic reaching them via evangelism is. But beyond all argument, it's not the same sort of situation as in the book of Acts where the "good news" was in many cases something many people, gentiles in particular, had never heard of before in any way.

There are plenty of churches and para-church organizations today which do evangelism of one sort or another. My biggest beef with them – the ones who are actually giving the good news without adding legalistic strictures to it – is that when they do reach someone, that is the end of it. The person is "saved" and added to the score card. But of course not everyone who turns to Christ stays true to Him. And even for those saved by such efforts who do persevere, in the main they are left after "being saved" to fend for themselves spiritually. Even famous groups like the Billy Graham Crusade only handed these people (really saved or not, really needing to be saved as being unbelievers rather than confused believers or not) over to local churches they partnered with. So in most cases, the really saved that needed to be saved (what percentage of the people who "come forward" that is, I don't know, but I would imagine that the percentage is a lot smaller than some would expect), are left adrift after "being saved". Even if they end up going with one of the partner churches, we know from experience that a lack of any substantive teaching which might lead to spiritual growth is the best they can expect – with some of the places they might end up being so steeped in legalism or other heretical views/approaches that maintaining faith might be difficult.

If there are any such groups active in your area – or any such "crusades" scheduled to come through, you might consider trying to partner with them. However, I would bet that you will have to pass muster, and when it is discovered that you don't sign on to some basic false doctrines – like water-baptism, for example – that you will be rejected. You could launch your own evangelism effort; but then you'd have to figure out how you want to do that. I'm not against that in principle, but witnessing "on purpose" as opposed to when the Lord presents opportunities can be a dicey business to get right and not abuse (again, you'd have to figure out the approach carefully ahead of time). Here's a link on that.

3) I don't necessarily have anything against people volunteering at some church or para-church group. I also don't see how in the vast majority of instances it could possibly be anything the Lord really wants them to do, given where most such groups are at nowadays, spiritually. Volunteering assumes giving time and effort to an already in-place organization, and the chances of them being godly right down the line are slim. There are, of course, some organizations I am sympathetic to – but not to the point of recommending volunteering with them. This point would be the least of my concerns, however. If I were offering up a Bible class, that would be, in my humble opinion, a grace offer. If others wanted to accept it, while I would have some consideration for their needs, I would not want to overlook the time and place best for myself upon whom the load of preparing and teaching falls. That is a doubly important consideration since consistency is key in any such operation. If people are going to get fed, they have a right to expect a continuation of that provision on a regular basis, a time and place to which they can then adapt. Their job is to show up; your job is to provide for them when they do; the when and the where are in your court. Naturally, you are concerned for what works best for them but you can't take yourself out of consideration here. Most people with Christian roots or backgrounds or expectations expect to have to show up Sunday morning at a minimum. If they have to choose your place over another one, I don't see any problem with that.

4) This is only an issue if the advice in point (1) is ignored.

5) I see this as more of the same.

Having gone to seminary, I can tell you that contemporary evangelicaldom has put enormous thought and effort into the mechanics of "reaching people" through evangelism, and also into the art and science of "church planting". They always say it is to "reach the un-churched", but in my observation and experience most of the individuals in any major metropolitan area at least who end up going to this "exciting new start-up" used to go to other churches. One can read extensively about the methodology of church planting / church starting, and that might be beneficial to do . . . if one wanted to start a traditional Laodicean church.

Most people "out there" have expectations about what a church is and what a church does. If I walked into your house on Saturday (or whenever) at the invitation of a friend or however I found out about it, I would expect to see chairs and a board/screen, maybe Bibles, people dressed well enough even if casual, greeting each other, etc. It would seem, at first, like a "church". Naturally, it doesn't have the building infrastructure, stained-glass windows and the like, but it's a "start up" – at least it will look that way. It wouldn't be until you got started that I might get a different impression.

The thing is, you are not trying to start a "church" – in the traditional USA Protestant and/or evangelical expectations that word implies. What you are trying to do is teach believers the Bible, and the more the better. This will no doubt astound most people who do show up.
And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching. for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Matthew 7:28-29 NKJV
A good number will not be "astounded" in a good way. But after all, most rejected our Lord, and He is our example in all this. 

But I am confident that the Lord has brought you to this point of preparation for a reason. That being the case, while we do want to "do what He wants us to do" in all things, including logistical issues of the sort you are broaching here, we have to remember that He is the One in charge, that it is His Church, that you are where you are to teach His people the truth – so that if you are preparing to do that well and willing to engage in the process, you needn't worry about the people showing up. He will bring whomever needs to be brought.
The Lord said to Paul in a night vision, “Don’t be afraid, but keep on speaking and don’t be silent. For I am with you, and no one will lay a hand on you to hurt you, because I have many people in this city.”
Acts 18:9-10 CSB
So maybe you could just start teaching the Bible. How to get the word out? Goodness, I have no clue, really. Flyers? Word of mouth? Flash devotional (of substance) in the food court of the local mall? This stuff is not my strong suite by any means (I dislike it intensely, in fact). 

I am confident that if you are ready to teach and actually teaching the truth the way the Lord wants you to do, He will not let anyone whom He knows needs it – people for whom you've been placed where you are – go without it. That doesn't mean you'll have to rent some place larger after a month. It might take a year before you get your first visitor – and he/she might not like what they hear. 

I'm no prophet. But I can put two and two together. If we do it the Lord's way, we never regret it. If we can help one single person the Lord wants helped, that is a great victory – a much larger one than a thousand people swarming to a big building on Sunday morning who are not even saved.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #6:   
Hi Bob,

I've felt for some time that I do much, much better in-person than other people I know -- not that this makes me better or anything, but just by personality. We have talked about this extensively. He will stick only to writing, no video content, and no live presenting. We're just built differently. ___ and I have talked about this at length too. He has cautioned me about some of the troubles coming from in-person fellowships and made it very clear it's not for him either (although he was/perhaps still is teaching at a local church at the moment, going through Ecclesiastes), not that there's anything inherently wrong with having in-person meetings if one navigates the perils appropriately.

I led in-person Bible studies for years in college, always coming about as a result of me attending local church meetings and getting into conversations with people therein, who would then be interested enough in continuing to talk that we would meet up at additional times without at the same time particularly affecting the functioning of the wider group in which we met (although I of course talk much more than most people in those groups). Statistically speaking, very few people came to find me to talk more (for example, perhaps 2 out of 25), and I never particularly solicited for it. Nor was I planning to now either.

This always worked well for me, and I had no twinges of conscience. I never felt like I was raiding other churches or doing a disservice to these other groups. I also never pushed to join leadership in such places. I simply spoke my mind in the Bible studies attached to these churches when I attended them, and everything else developed out from that. As far as I'm aware, in fact, most of the time those organizing these meetings were happy for the participation. (But again, this was college groups specifically, which are somewhat a different beast).

The entire reason, then, why I emailed you about all this even though I already have a very strong vision in my mind is because ___, in the course of correspondence with another person, after mentioning the general plans that he and I have talked over in passing to this other person, received such an unexpected overwhelmingly critical missive that he came and got me to listen to it to see if it actually said what he thought it said. We were rather taken aback.

I debated framing my initial email to you in this way (making clear all this context), and in fact thought for quite some time about whether it was responsible for me to ask without making all this clear up front. I know you have very much requested that I make it clear when questions are coming from forum communication (things relating to ongoing conversations or disagreements), but I wasn't sure if this was quite the same or not. For one thing, I was not a direct party to this communication and will not respond. I can't speak for ___, of course, but he and I are partners in some of this, so make of that what you will.

At any rate, I'm not really second-guessing what I did here or anything now, but perhaps it seems necessary for me to make all this clear now that we are here. Happy to hear your thoughts on how I've handled this circumstance here too.

I wasn't fishing for validation so much as making sure I was giving the criticism the proper due instead of brashly dismissing it without seriously considering it. That's why, after thinking things over, I asked many of the questions that I did.

This seems to me like being challenged to find my ministry footing, which is certainly no bad thing.

I confess that my initial thought is that I do not seem to see the great harm in what I have proposed, despite your misgivings. I believe I've made it quite clear that I am well aware of some of the tensions that come out of participating in groups that are not completely "mine," yet, as above, I've already done this for many years in college. I did not have a formal website and YouTube channel at that point, it is true, but I was already teaching with authority even then. I don't see how the mechanics are to be so greatly different.

And as much as I have always striven to avoid conflict and authority-measuring like the plague, why is it that speaking the truth is a bad thing? I'm in no way going out of my way to seek to turn others against those places they attend, but I won't apologize for the truth or the consequences it has in changing people's viewpoints. I also took care inasmuch as it was in my power to make the best of every environment I faced so as to maximize what I could say without rocking the boat. So for example, I mixed with a group in college where certain people believed in tongues. Anyone who asked me what I thought would get an honest response, but I didn't go out of my way to go on a crusade against those in this group who insisted on the practice. Instead, I taught through the book of James, Jonah, 1 John, and some of the Peter Series on Ichthys. None of which, notably, caused me to call down fire upon my head in those particular circumstances (by constantly harping on 1 Corinthians 14, for example). Not that any of the people who were interested enough to come find me would have particularly cared, mind you (they were not the tongues practitioners), but still, it wasn't my main focus for a reason.

Among a different group of people I knew from my Greek and Hebrew classes -- people vaguely associated with the house church I lived in during college -- we actually did talk about cessationism and the disappearance of the sign gifts, because the environment was different. Within this group, I didn't make it my business to insult philosophy as much as I otherwise might, because it was more dear to this other church than most others I've ever encountered.

You get the idea. Put uncharitably, it might seem like I was selectively muzzling myself in the truth because I cared what others thought. Instead, I always viewed it as doing that which was necessary to keep the peace while I was carrying out what I was supposed to be doing.

Obviously, that cannot be all I do as a teacher. This is entirely why I didn't go to seminary and bind myself to cautiously watching what I say in every word I speak for the rest of my teaching days. But given that I feel led to do at least some in-person things, it has never particularly bothered me to read the room wherever I find myself, and adjust accordingly. Flexibility is important to us when used properly, right?

The ministry website and YouTube channel will have no filter, and I have never hidden who I am or what I believe. But that doesn't mean I focus on the most incendiary things I can in the environments in which I find myself.

I feel like I could say a great many more things and present all sorts of evidence as to why I feel like attending several in-person local groups for some time at least is the next thing I feel called to, but I think I will perhaps leave things here for now and let you have another say.

It seems to me somewhat a matter of differences in ministry calling, yet I know it dangerous to use that as a fig leaf for anything that would well and truly be immoral for us as teachers. I've just never had doubts along those lines.

I suppose you already know this, but I am not much enamored of this path because I hope to amass a following and such. It is simply more along the lines of I am not going to ignore some of the strengths I feel like I've been given, and the rest is merely a practical question of figuring out how to get from A to B after that.

As a parting thought, I would not find it appropriate for an evangelist to sit inside his room and wonder why God was not bringing him people to evangelize, and then start blaming God. You might argue that perhaps the whole test was him continuing to do all he could with no results, and that was a feature not a bug.

But I can't agree that wading into the situations around us --messy as they often are -- is always the wrong answer. We must wait on God's timing rather than taking things completely into our own hands, of course, but there is room for many different approaches to the problems herein, as I see it.

So I wouldn't be able to get behind the idea that anyone who goes further than simply posting materials on the internet and leaving it to God is necessary not doing that to which they are called.

I appreciate your feedback.

Yours in Christ,
Response #6:   
Thanks for your concern – Louisville is fine. We did receive a great deal of rain, but no flooding around here. They really got hammered out to the east of us, however (a fair number of fatalities) – reminding me of the places that got flattened by those tornadoes to the southwest of us last year. 

I'm very grateful to the Lord for His protection!

On sharing information and such, I don't have any problem with the way you broached this issue or handled it. No worries there at all.

Let me reiterate how proud I am of you for your wonderful progress for the Lord and all your efforts on behalf of His Church. This is your ministry we're talking about here, and you are responsible to Him to do it the way the Spirit is leading you to do it. I know you know that you don't have to run things by me, just wanting my take. Please know that whatever I say in such cases has only your spiritual best interests in mind.

As to the example of "an evangelist sitting inside his room and wondering why God was not bringing him people to evangelize, and then start blaming God", I've always said we can't just sit on a park bench and expect God to do what He's clearly delegated to us to do (that comes from my mentor, Col. Thieme – who apparently knew of one person who foolishly and literally tried just that!). But your example is one that is an extreme; on the other extreme we also wouldn't expect an evangelist to go out and physically tackle people on the sidewalk, put them in a headlock and make them say, "I believe!" instead of "uncle!" So that's not what we are talking about here the on other hand, no extremes, strategies in the middle rather. 

Spreading the word about your Bible classes through your own contacts with others, through that of your friends, through you various ministry outlets (website, What's Ap, Zooming, YouTube), and perhaps putting out some flyers or other advertising either physical or in cyber space (I'm told that college students nowadays are getting most of their news via Instagram), would not be doing "nothing" – and no one thinks you'd be blaming God if you didn't get wild, immediate response on this point.

What we are discussing is one particular possible method of attracting attendees. It is your decision, based upon what the Spirit is telling you, as to whether or not to go that route. But I do find it hard to believe that you would somehow be doing anything wrong by NOT going that route. And I am sure that a brilliant person such as yourself could easily come up with many other ways to get the message out well beyond the ones mentioned above. 

If you went to a local church in your area and got involved in one of their Bible studies, it would only be for this reason, correct? To make the people there aware of your own teaching ministry. That would be an uncomfortable thing to have to tell their pastor before you did so, and in my book, a questionable thing not to tell him.

When your ministry gets rolling, I'm wondering what your reaction would be if somebody showed up and began to tell the other attendees that you were "dead wrong" about the obsolescence of water-baptism, e.g., and encouraged them to come to his/her Baptist (or other) church instead. 

There is a critical difference, of course. YOU are teaching the truth; THEY are the ones in the wrong in terms of what the Bible actually teaches. 

But on the question of authority, I worry about this approach. To some degree, I blame myself, because I have always painted most other church group in a very negative way – to protect the flock, because the vast majority of them are in fact doing no good and many doing much harm. Still, they exist, and can we really say that they are serving absolutely no purpose in God's plan? There are, after all, plenty of Christians out there who are not going to Bible fellowships such are yours because they are not interested in growing, because they are fundamentally lukewarm. Can we really say that God is not providing them with the little they are willing to tolerate via these admittedly flawed churches? To the extent that this may be the case, then in my view it is difficult to argue that the principle of pastoral authority doesn't still apply.

What we are actually talking about here is a very small universe of brothers and sisters who really ARE interested in growing spiritually but who somehow find themselves in the wrong place. On the one hand, one could opine that them being in that wrong place is not a particularly good indication that they are really interested in something better; on the other hand, I suppose it could also be true that God has put them there "on hold" until you and your ministry should show up to collect them. Acts is filled with examples of Paul and co. evangelizing in the synagogues, but the differences between that and what we are discussing here have been explored already.

I am confident that the Lord will provide you with the right people. How He will do so and exactly what He expects you to do to participate in this process I don't pretend to know. But the proposal you floated to me is one I would have trouble whole-heartedly endorsing for the reasons suggested before and amplified above. And I would hope that you would at least "sleep on it" before going that route.

I do promise to be keeping you in my prayers on this and all other matters, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #7:  
Hi Bob,

Because this topic we are talking about is a big decision, I've spent a lot of time thinking here. I recall several other exchanges we've had in the past: my initial decision about accepting the spiritual gift generally, what major(s) I should pursue, career decisions after that, marriage matters. It seems to me that the decisions here are perhaps on this same sort of scale, rather than being more perfunctory. This is about my ministry path, after all.

I've certainly asked for feedback in some ministry matters previously, but I can't recall another specific instance in regards to making decisions about my ministry's scope or direction that have engendered quite the same long, prayerful walks or long, detailed lists of pros and cons within my mind. All this is a somewhat roundabout way of saying that I am very much thinking this one through, and I can appreciate the importance of being set in my mind before committing to a path, as decisions here will have wide-ranging consequences on my time and focus moving forward in ministry.

I. Distinguishing between global absolutes and matters of individual application

First, isolating some of the variables at play. Let's define some extremes that are likely to be very straightforward.

A) On the one hand, if ___ and I were to somehow find a local assembly that warmly embraced our offer to host serious Bible studies without us being the least bit vague about their nature or scope (i.e., completely upfront and transparent), then we'd have absolutely no issues at all re: conflicting authority, right?

B) And on the other hand, if I went around to various groups sowing dissension and urging people to ditch their present associations in lieu of our newly launched study (subsequently guilt-tripping anyone who found fault with this procedure), well, that is pretty clearly wrong, and obviously so.

The problem is, things are very much likely to not so neatly fit into clean categories like this.

From an intuitive angle, my question is basically this:

1) If we are comfortable saying (A) is fine if we might somehow manage to actually land in such a situation out in the Laodicean wild, then
2) Is it possible to find things "like (A) enough" that they might be a valid path for those of us called to an in-person ministry component? Or does it have to be "100% (A) or not at all"?

So what do I mean by "like (A)"? Seems to me like:

i) The leadership of the community we are involved in for the purpose of inviting people to our Bible study is "friendly enough" towards our efforts, and
ii) ___ and I are "free enough" to teach that which we actually believe, so that we are not greatly muzzled in the truth.

Now, both of these are something of a spectrum. How enthusiastic do the local church people have to be for us to be clear on that front? And how many topics must we accept that we'll have to tread a bit lightly on so as not to completely nuke (i) before we give up on the whole endeavor as impossible? Spectrums right?

So, for that reason, I see how one could make an argument that anything other than this completely-independent internet-teaching approach necessarily involves compromise of some sort, end of story.

Sounds to me here like on the topic of attending other churches for the purpose of finding in-person contacts through that channel/means, you are suggesting that it is never a good approach. (That there would always be better alternative approaches).

As I understand it, as teachers we may all be called to different ministry specifics (e.g., 1 Corinthians 12:4-6). Nonetheless, there exist some things that we are deceived in if we truly believe we are called to them. So, for example, tackling people to the ground and forcing them to spit out the words, as in your previous example.

To word my question in a different way, when you say that you find it an absolute statement that one would not do wrong by avoiding the procedures we are talking about, then does that not logically imply that nobody is truly called to such a path? Because if they were, it would be "wrong" (in manner of speaking) for them to avoid such a call? Or am I misreading what you are saying?

I think that this should perhaps suffice for context for this question. I have gathered from your responses that you have deep misgivings about this path. As identified, there are risks regarding interacting with local church authority, and also risks regarding being tempted to hold back certain teachings in an attempt to not cause conflict. Neither of these things present so much of an issue if you forgo this specific path we are discussing. But do these things make this path globally suboptimal ("wrong", in a manner of speaking), or just something that we need to be very careful about, because the risks are more nuanced than with other paths?

To put it differently again, is the set of people who might truly be called to this course of action empty, if these people in question were in fact completely listening to the Spirit as they ought to?

I am in none of this attempting to argue one way or the other. I am merely trying to understand what your statements thus far mean, in terms of whether this is a black and white area, or an area of at least some application.

II. What are alternative ways to find people for an in-person Bible study? Church planting?

To be honest, I am not at all wedded to this specific means of finding people who might be interested in our in-person Bible study. It just seemed to me that the most likely place to find Christians who might be interested is in churches, right? (Even given the fact that Laodicea makes churches depressingly not so great for this either, but at least it's still better than bars and beaches, for example).

It seems to me like many of the suggestions you have made do not work in an in-person sense. Now, I understand that different teachers can be called to different things, but certainly we are not taking the stance that no teachers should have in-person teaching, right?

Or is it that no teacher should engage in the least bit of active (rather than passive) "recruiting"?

Let me turn back to things you've suggested:

Flyers would work for establishing an in-person fellowship, although I was much more gung-ho about making friends with people and then only inviting those I perceived to be actually interested, as that's always how I thought things ought to work, ideally. And that's how things have worked well in the past for me too, re: college Bible studies.

Word of mouth is great, but both ___ and I are supremely socially isolated at the moment, as we've sunk a lot of our free time into our ministry preparation. I know of one Christian coworker in my building at work, and he is deeply Pentecostal and not at all interested in what I have to say. I don't have other clubs or activities. So who exactly am I speaking to word of mouth? (I'm not asking this sarcastically, I'm being serious). This is exactly why I had crossed this option off the list from the get-go. I don't have a deep social network to tap in this regard.

As to flash devotionals at the food court... I suppose? Perhaps I could go try to attend local apologetics meetups and speak convincingly there. Or go to college campuses and try to have conversations with anyone interested there. But all of these involve strangers and zero friendship before invitation to the Bible study, so see my thoughts on the importance of relationships in my analysis of the flyers option above.

Recruiting through all of my ministry outlets works great in an online sense (in fact, I almost have 40 subscribers on YouTube despite not even formally launching yet), but none of these folks are local/in-person.

Re: flyers, see above. And re: online marketing, I'm already planning to have a presence on Facebook and Twitter, at the least, for the ministry. But again, those channels won't really yield local/in-person people.

Now, if you think I ought to completely abandon the in-person idea, that is a position. You and ___ and ___ and __ are all currently or are all planning on being basically exclusively online with no in-person component. So is that the only proper path for us teachers in our Laodicean times? It's certainly a lot less messy. We've established that much.

I feel like more what your position is is that we should not ourselves try to market our meetings or actively recruit people for our in-person studies. If something works out, great. But otherwise it's out of our hands.

What I can't seem to wrap my head around, then, is how in the world have local churches been planted throughout the centuries?

I'd like to go there and discuss this topic too, if possible. Maybe talking more about that will help shed light on the issues. After all, my insistence on an in-person study is in essence a true church plant, despite not having certain trappings that Protestants have come to expect. It is what I am interested in, independently of how exactly I find the in-person people.

How do I know that I am? Because I bought a house as a single person, with this as a primary motivation. Then I bought several thousand dollars worth of furniture and technology to allow for in-person Bible study meetings, and spent a lot of time planning out the mechanics of it in great depth. At no point did I ever have misgivings about this being a good thing for me to do.

So, that being as it may, and the potential perils we've identified with the visiting-local-church-gatherings approach, where does that leave us?

Yours in Christ,
Response #7:    
On your question, I certainly don't mind more emails about this. I think it is important to get it right.

On (a), I'm not sure that I'd agree even with that. Why not? Because what people say at the beginning is not necessarily where they finish up at in the end. If it were, we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate in this country. And it's more complicated in a church, because what the pastor may be unreservedly OK with, his board or his congregation – and more to the point some few but vocal and influential people in his congregation – may not be. Local church politics is an area which is a wonder to behold – not in a good way. And there is no way you could have a good idea of the specific battlefield in any given local church before you become involved. They all look sweet, smile, shake your hand – but you don't know the "back story" nor the undercurrents of jealousies, competitions, prejudices, and – oh yes – money issues. Who gave what where when and why, "and now YOU (whoever "you" is) are doing/saying/allowing/forbidding thus and so?!" Bottom line on this point: a friendly reception and a pledge to work together does NOT mean that these ponies and rainbows will last. Not at all. I have seen this with my own eyes more than once. Just to give you one story, a friend of mine, seminary colleague, had to do, as part of a school assignment, a stint in a local church. He didn't have a denominational affiliation (like myself, a "taper", someone who followed Col. Thieme's ministry), so our Hebrew prof. agreed to let him teach a Bible study at the church he was currently pastoring. This lasted for about two weeks, if memory serves. Some of the people in the Bible study (or maybe it was just one guy), took violent exception to something he was teaching (something about guilt being a bad thing rather than a good thing) and stirred up the elders so that our prof. was forced – very apologetically – to give my friend the boot. That was in a large metropolitan area where my friend could easily make other arrangements. You don't live in a small town, exactly, but since Louisville, which is much larger, has a lot of "small town" attributes, I'm guessing that if something similar happened to you, it would make the rounds.

We can skip (B) since it's not on the table. As to "things are very much likely to not so neatly fit into clean categories like this", that is certainly true. As discussed above, you will mostly be going in blind, wherever you go, and the only way to even have a chance of not "stepping in it" would be to commit to being actively involved for six months or so until you've met and gotten to know most everyone and thus have found out where most (not all) of the "bodies are buried". That is problematic on at least three counts; first, because people like me and you have a darned hard time keeping our mouths shut when important issues of truth come up (and they will, immediately); second, because spending all that time at a place which is not good for you spiritually will be, well, not good for you spiritually (as well as a terrific waste of time); and third, because it puts you in a position of being disingenuous if you are not careful (and maybe even if you are).

If you imagine that you can present yourself to church X and be absolutely above board about your beliefs and intentions and not end up in a huge cat fight, well, I admire your innocence, but I have to say that the word naiveté comes to mind. Not that in many places where they really don't care a whit about doctrine you wouldn't get an initially warm reception. After all, most local churches in Laodicea are about butts-in-seats, free labor and – oh yes – money. But if you don't attend and participate in all their stuff (and they will have plenty of stuff, ritual, social, recruiting, and political stuff, etc.), and if you don't volunteer, and – especially – if you don't give them any money, in my experience and observation, the welcome mat will be rolled back up pretty quickly – and it could be ugly (often in such cases some "point of truth" will be used to expel you – and it won't matter a bit that you are right and they are wrong).

If you find a place where what you are contemplating causes no friction, first, I would be surprised; second, I would be suspicious. I'm not saying it's impossible. You have your skills and possibly you'd find such a place. But it's hard for me to imagine that there are many churches whose top priority is always expansion (which is in truth virtually all of them) that would be fine with you not helping them do so – and taking away some of the time and attention of others who were.

As to "Sounds to me here like on the topic of attending other churches for the purpose of finding in-person contacts through that channel/means, you are suggesting that it is never a good approach", it is true that I remain to be convinced (not that you owe me any convincing LOL). I am concerned both with the issue of workability (very problematic in my view, but I could be wrong about that) and also with that of ethics (I would have a hard time pulling off something like this and being able to look at myself in the mirror, but, again, it does depend on the precise method and also personalities, so I'm not being dogmatic on this point either, though, again, I remain to be convinced that even under just the right circumstances it could be "OK" to do).

As to "when you say that you find it an absolute statement that one would not do wrong by avoiding the procedures we are talking about, then does that not logically imply that nobody is truly called to such a path?", not exactly. This is a device I have long used in trying to figure out correct paths of action in my own life. Like the Hippocratic oath part, "first, do no wrong", by using this test we can easily break things down into "no problem doing/saying/thinking this" and "I'm not exactly sure about that". And I have found in my life that the more of the first category of things one embraces and the more of the second one avoids, the happier one is in the end. It's not always possible to steer entirely clear of B, I understand, but when there are multiple options that would work, my rule of thumb is to avoid category B. Sometimes, after investigation, a B turns out to be an A after all – but it is very important to let that happen naturally and scrupulously avoid rationalizing a B into an A because we want it to be so. Been there. Done that. Suffered for it.

If your contemplated course of action were the only way of reaching people, that would be one thing. But if it's a question of something you'd prefer for whatever reason, then, if it were me, I would listen to those misgivings – talking about me (you may not have them). I'm sure that you have read my take on Paul's last trip to Jerusalem. The way I read what Luke is given to say in Acts, the Spirit was making it pretty clear that going there was a mistake. But Paul dearly wanted to personally present the offerings he had so laboriously collected – with a lot of blood, sweat and tears – to the people he loved. So he rationalized that although some problems awaited, since he was willing to endure it, all was well. And he suffered for it. If one of the greatest believers of all time could fall into this trap, we all need to be doubly careful about doing/saying/thinking anything whatsoever that causes us even the tiniest pang of consciences – mature believers in particular (the Spirit's warnings are VERY different from misplaced feelings of guilt; immature believers frequently confuse the two). As I have stipulated, I'm far from perfect on this score. But I am also "gun shy" on this issue as a result of consequences suffered.

As to "alternative ways", we have also already allowed that sitting on a park bench and waiting for people to show up is undoubtedly not what the Lord wants. I think we can also probably agree that however He wants you to proceed, while He does want you to do more than sit and wait, He also wants you to do so in a godly way. And if you commit your way to Him, He will certainly help you. That is the "strategic overview" of the problem in my view – and one I always try to hang onto myself.

The rest is a question of mechanics. You are trained in Classics. When you were studying Greek religion, I'll bet it was interesting to find out that this is an entire sub-field of Classics with all manner of experts and an incredibly massive bibliography which would take a life-time to properly master (if it could ever be done by mere mortals who are not Mommsen or Wilamowitz). That is true of course of all manner of nearly innumerable classical sub-disciplines. The same sort of thing applies to institutional Christianity nowadays – you missed out on all that nice stuff by avoiding seminary (good for you!); but had you gone, you would have found out that there is just such a sub-discipline centered around "church planting" and "church growth". and "missions" and "evangelism" (related but with each having their own "scholars and scholarship"). I certainly don't pretend to be an expert! This sort of thing has never been something I gave a lot of thought to because of the way things developed in my life. But I would be willing to bet that if you read a half dozen books and a couple dozen articles on the topic that you'd find out that it boils down to a few obvious principles: 1) having a format-church ready and waiting before you begin (the plan); 2) having a good core team to launch the effort (the key personnel); 3) aggressively implementing the plan with the team through every possible means and all possible venues. It's the third one here where the "rubber meets the road", and you will find plenty of methods used and suggested which turn your stomach; but there might be others that would work. Whatever the methods, it always will come down to you and "your team" putting yourselves out there and making personal contacts; the more time and effort you spend, the more contacts you'll make, and the more success you'll have bringing people – butts in seats – into your format "church". 

The problem is, that with the institutional Christianity approach mentioned above, there is already a big potential pool of people to fill it. There is, as I have often remarked, seemingly a local church of some kind (or other religious establishment) on nearly every other corner in this country. And in addition to plenty of the people in these building being on the look out for something "better", there are plenty of people who are "un-churched" but who would be interested in joining in with just such a "new church" effort, especially if they like you and your team and your approach, and if the format-church has what they are looking for . . . which is, in the main, a nice group of people with whom to socialize, an entertaining "experience", and a little religion on the side would be OK too. But NOT dull and boring actual Bible teaching where they are told things they don't want to hear and with which their preconceived notions do not agree. Which is why, after all, the perfect "format-church" will have an inspiring sermon at the end of all the hoopla and music and "light show" which makes "everyone glad to have come" without actually teaching them anything – because real teaching always offends.

On the theory that there are a large group of people in churches who are really looking for something ACTUALLY "better" and that the "better" is solid, substantive Bible teaching – without much in the way of church picnics, socials, dinners, political action, musical extravaganzas, etc., etc. – I would be very surprised, sad to say. I have been in / at / had one manner of relationship or another with all manner of flavors of these places in my life, and I've never seen that. People don't go to a "church" – given what a "church" is almost certainly going to be in this country today – because they are looking to be fed spiritually. They go for the music, for the excitement (mega-churches, charismatics, new cult twists, or even high ritual, etc.), out of guilt, out of habit, out of tradition – for all kinds of reason . . . OTHER than to hear the Word of God taught the way it should be taught.

Please do NOT get discouraged! The Spirit gave you the gift He gave you for a reason, and Jesus Christ is establishing you in ministry. These things wouldn't have happened if there were no one willing to be taught by you. I'm sure they are out there, and your diligence in preparation and the grace way in which you are approaching all this is wonderful – and I couldn't be more proud of you. All the more reason to do things the right way – and avoid doing them the wrong way.

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with parishioner Y and his wife telling their friends who used to go to church Z with them that they have found the most amazing Bible study and bringing them along out of church Z. This is the way I envision these sorts of things happening – word of mouth from believer to believer to friends and acquaintances who are just those sorts of unicorns we're talking about, namely, believers who are in the wrong place to grow, feel it in their bones, but just haven't been presented with the right opportunity for a face to face solid Bible teaching ministry up to that point. In fact, I think something like this HAS to be the way things grow in the end. After all, you can't very well imagine the approach under consideration taking you to church after church and you rescuing one here and two there until you have a hundred or so (a rough minimum for a going concern). Keep in mind, however, that if someone really is searching for the truth, they are probably not still "in" a church, having found whatever place they were in (if there were in any place) wanting . . . so that they are searching. 

As to, "I feel like more what your position is is that we should not ourselves try to market our meetings or actively recruit people for our in-person studies." Not at all. That is probably what you should be doing. I just have issues with doing it at an already existing church.

Where else? "Both ___ and I are supremely socially isolated at the moment, as we've sunk a lot of our free time into our ministry preparation". That is the dilemma in a nutshell, isn't it. When the Jerusalem church became aware of the problem of gentile widows being passed over, the apostles said, "It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables" (Acts 6:2); so as you know they appointed others for that admin task. 

What you clearly need is that "team" to help you. You cannot very well make tents, prepare for teaching, AND do the recruiting / admin yourself. This is important. There is a great temptation here to try to do it all – and what will happen most likely is that your preparation for teaching is what will suffer rather than the other two areas. It's in the nature of things – which is why most Laodicean churches are what they are: plenty of workers and admin and outreach – especially by the pastor – but precious little teaching (if any).

Given what I have said in the earlier part of this email, I do feel it unrealistic to assume that, even if you could see your way clear to committing to the approach we're discussing that your personal preparation for teaching wouldn't suffer for it. There are only so many hours in the day, after all.

So what you need is help. As uncomfortable as it is, __ could "get out there" and begin making contacts. People do this. Billy Graham was Fuller Brush Salesman of the Year as a young lad and never had trouble meeting people and engaging with them. You know believers through the forum and your other internet outreaches who could help you, and not only online. I'll bet most of them have bemoaned the fact that "there is no good in-person church to go to where I live". They don't live near you? They could spend their vacation helping to drum up business.

You are a selfless person, and you don't like asking anyone – for anything. I well understand. But from where I sit, it seems you need help. Now you could put it all on the Lord's shoulders and wait for the people just to show up – maybe they read your flyer. But if someone from your team handed it to them and enthused about the teaching, it would be about a hundred times more likely they'd show up.

I don't have all the answers. I may not even have any of them – you have to make these decisions yourself. 

One thing I CAN tell you is that if you DO get a few folks to show up, you'd better have your teaching ducks all in a row. Because if you don't, the opportunity will be wasted. All the more reason for you to concentrate on "job #1". It's not a question, moreover, of you looking spiffy, or having a polished delivery (not that there's anything wrong with either); it's a question of teaching a good lesson, one with which the Lord will be pleased, and then another, and then another. And if He is pleased, chances are the people who show up would be willing to overlook a lot of teething problems – if God is the One who's brought them to just the sort of place they've been looking for.

So hang in there! I'm confident that you are on the right track with all this. I know you've made great sacrifices and I know that the Lord honors that.

I have all this in prayer – do feel free to write back about any of this.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #8: 
[omitted]
Response #8:  
I hope that you don't mind me taking the liberty of addressing this email to both of you in the interest of efficiency (since this is all directly related).

I read this in scripture:
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and sound judgment.
2nd Timothy 1:7 CSB
In my experience and reading of scripture, when the Spirit is guiding us to do something, He gives us confidence and assurance; where that confidence is lacking, we need to seek God's help in prayer and consider the scriptures carefully. When we do, we are given the assurance we need as to whether to proceed with whatever it is or not if we ask in faith.
If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.
James 1:5 NIV
So as to whether or not failure to respond to the Spirit's guidance, whether by omission or commission, is always a sin or not, to me that is a moot point . . . because it would always be a bad idea to do so. Running an extra couple of miles if your knee is aching may be taken to be courageous, but if the result is that you are then side-lined for months thereafter, probably it wasn't smart, even if it wasn't a sin (speaking from direct, personal experience on this one).

As to going to a church's Bible study but not to the church or any of its activities, that would certainly avoid some of the complications I've mentioned, but perhaps add new ones. If I were a pastor or an elder or an involved member of a church, and someone "new" came to our Bible study, I would be thrilled – because we are doing this specifically TO recruit new members. If said person began to express views not in line with our church or if said person began to "take over" the study by essentially teaching something "we" don't agree with, again, I would probably give some latitude at first because, after all, we're still looking to recruit that person (and I would be "inviting"/pressuring him to come to services and everything else). Ultimately, "we" really don't care much about doctrine anyway, but we do want to expand – that is our purpose in life. But if said person then started inviting stalwarts in the Bible study to come to his . . . instead . . . I would be less than happy. And if we started actually losing members to this person, I would be hostile. 

Maybe that doesn't matter. After all, the only reason "we" would be losing members is because they were in wrong place anyway, really were looking for a good place to learn the Bible and grow spiritually, and now that they've found it when "we" didn't provide it, "we" really have nothing to complain about. However, "we" might have a legitimate complaint about how this person behaved in "poaching" our members on the one hand; on the other hand, I repeat that I would be very pleasantly surprised if you actually did find such "unicorns". Something you both may have missed from a prior email but very worthy to chew on, in my humble opinion:

*In fact, the most common story I hear from folks who come to and become interested in Ichthys is that they STOPPED going to those churches / Bible studies precisely because they WERE interested in the truth and could not abide the opposite (which is what they were getting). For those sorts, they're no longer there for you to make contact with in the first place.

Do you know anyone you've met connected to Ichthys now who doesn't have a similar story? I'm not saying that unicorns don't exist (i.e., believers who want to be positive but are hanging in there in typical churches all the same). I do know that positive believers are pretty rare, so how much time and effort you should expend in looking for them where they are unlikely to be is one important question as well as where to look for them. Yes, there are believers out there who do want or who would want to learn the truth taught in a godly, systematic, biblical, orthodox, in-depth and authoritative way – but how many of them are still "churched", given what "church" is in late-day Laodicea? If they're not in churches, then how much good would looking for them there do you?

The other question is the right or wrong of it. It can be true that doing what you are contemplating or some version of it where you are very careful not to do or say anything offensive might not be wrong. But that doesn't mean that it would be right, either. As suggested before, I have lived long enough in the Lord to have pretty good radar about whatever I say or think or do – to know ahead of time that I have good reason to be uncomfortable doing / or not doing some thing or other. I am not saying I am perfect and always perfectly heed this guidance I get, these signals to my conscience through the Spirit working with the truth I know. But I can say absolutely that whenever I go against this spiritual guidance, it always causes regret. Only the degree of regret / damage / discipline is at issue (depending on how big an issue it was). Given how much and how long you fellows have been struggling with this one – the fact that you would even ask me about it in the first place – suggests to me that you may be getting such signals on this issue. It's just that you want to do this, and it seems like a very probable way of accomplishing what is clearly a godly goal of assembling and teaching believers the Word of God. Problem is, if you're not sure about the method, there is possibly a reason for that.

As to absolute yes/no answers, I am your friend and, I hope, someone who has been a good teacher for you and mentor to you. But I am not in the place of God, obviously. I don't have a breast-plate with the urim and thummim where I can ask the Lord on your behalf whether or not you should do this. And that is a good thing too. We have the Spirit. And we have a right and obligation to make our own decisions based upon the truth we have learned, the objectives we have for the Lord, and guidance that the Spirit gives us. We have to make those decisions ourselves. 

When you ask me a question, I try to give you my best understanding of what the Bible says. When there is no direct biblical answer, when it is a question of application, I do my best based upon what I know from scripture and my experience. But no two people and no two situations are the same. What you are attempting I have never attempted. I have seen parallel things and done parallel things, but not this particular thing. If I had no reservations, I would have told you so. I do have reservations for reasons previously explained. But, unless I have completely misread the situation, you also may have reservations, reservations you are trying to work your way through . . . or around. If it is the former and you can do it, then perhaps there is no problem. I have my doubts, both about the ethics of it and also about the spiritual profitability of it. If, however, it is the latter . . .

"Put differently, is it possible for a teacher in our modern time and place to actually be called by the Spirit in such a way? Yes or no?" Of course it is possible. And if this is what you are being called by the Spirit to do, then you should do it. I would imagine that the 144,000 will proceed in a similar way to what you are contemplating (but in Jewish groups, not churches). So I cannot say, "this is never the right course of action, period." However, from where I sit, it doesn't appear to me that you are being called by the Spirit to do things this way. I could be wrong about that. Only you have a chance of knowing for sure. So the real yes or no question that you need to answer is whether or not the Spirit is really prompting you to do this. 

In fact, that is really all you need to know.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #9:   
[omitted]
Response #9:    

Thanks for this. I certainly wouldn't want any of this to be a matter of tension between us. As you too have experience, people ask us questions; we do our best to answer; we can't make decisions for them; if something is not spelled out in scripture as wrong, we have no business telling them it is, even if we think it's a bad idea, personally.

I had thought I had answered this question. It is a matter of application, obviously. It can only be black/white, right/wrong if one's conscience in the Spirit says so, one way or another.

Also, I might be misunderstanding things. I know you set up / got involved in Bible studies on campus, studies you set up (?) and some that were already in existence. I don't see any problem with that. My issue was / is the extent to which such "types" of meetings are part and parcel of a going-concern local church. I know something about both species, and in my view they are quite different, not because of what they look like or what goes on, but because of who is in them and why and because of what relationship they have to whatever they are related to. There is a big difference between a university and a local church. Hope that makes sense.

As I've also always said, Christians should do what they are convinced in their hearts by the Spirit is right to do. That may well be different for two different Christians in nearly identical looking (to us) circumstances, because no two of us are the same or at the same place spiritually – and there is always a lot we don't know or don't see in the details.

One last practical suggestion. If, in your area, there are any inter-denominational Bible studies, or Bible studies which are not official appendages of a particular church (I know for a fact that such things exist), I think that on the one hand there would be a much greater chance of success – and on the other hand most if not all of the problems I anticipated would not be present as they might be if the Bible study was essentially a particular church's "Sunday school" or the equivalent.

Keeping you in my prayers daily, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #10:   
[omitted]
Response #10:    　
Yes, college is different. And you were a member of the college so that the Bible study was not something foreign from that point of view. I never saw any issues with these when you told me about them and don't now. To the extent that a Bible study is not associated directly with and subordinate to a local church, I have no problem with your idea. People in those types of get-togethers often ARE looking for the truth, and someone offering a better path to it is certainly in the spirit of the endeavor. My brother and his wife in Detroit are involved in some of these (as is my nephew and his wife) and I know that they are to be found everywhere. They might be good hunting ground indeed. Sunday school in a local Baptist church, not so much. I leave things in-between to your discretion.

Keeping you and your ministry efforts in my prayers, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #11:   
Hi Dr L,

I was thinking of joining some sort of volunteer group. I know you are very cautious of that sort of thing. But from my own experience, the Home I was from was a largely charity organization (far as I know, wouldn't know how to check, but there were a lot of donations, I remember that). And it did help me a lot. So I do think there is use in some of those things (though you know I am also very aware that some people take advantage and I haven't really volunteered since high school for that reason...I used to do babysitting and the screens in the church and for a long time I felt regretful of the first because of feeling used, though maybe it was my own fault). I wouldn't do babysitting for kids who have families fyi. Anyway. What do you think?

Respectfully,
Response #11:   
We should all do whatever the Spirit is guiding us to do through the truth of the Word. If this is your application, I certainly support you, and I will pray for you to find a good venue.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #12: 
Dr Luginbill,

I met up with a coworker/maybe friend on Saturday. And at some point I mentioned that I am trying to go out and do things. And she mentioned volunteering. And I get irritated. Maybe that was wrong. But I feel I am constantly on the edge of being on the street, because, as you know, at no point in my life could I rely on family or friends to help me if something went wrong. I am still shaky. I told her I want to spend some time right now on myself. And she got quiet. And I explained my background and said "I would understand what I said being upsetting if I were a spoiled princess, but I haven't had the resources and support most people have had. Ever." 

1) And then, I told her I do pray for people. Because I didn't want her to get the wrong idea/think badly. Did I undo any rewards I would have gotten for saying that?

2) Is it wrong that, when I said I am trying to not be such a shell of a person (who stays in their bedroom all the time) and go out and do things, like going to the store without feeling guilty about existing, it upsets me when she recommended 'help other people with their problems/volunteer'? I mean I guess I would also point that despite me being able to prove I have problems, at no point did she recommend things to help with mine, but other people are so important that their problems MUST BE HELPED. Aren't I human too? She had nothing to say when I mentioned what I wrote earlier, that I have had less than most people (in America anyway). So even with that I must give other people my resources, because I guess I am not as important? Can I go to God and tell Him then that it seems all believers I meet (except you) seem to think I am less than human because I don't get help, even when they acknowledge that I have had it really bad, but I better give what little I have to complete strangers (in the manner they want, she didn't waver even after I said I prayed) or I am a bad person/Christian. Okay I am a little more calm. I just don't know what to say to someone who says that, because what can a believer say to that (to volunteer) that doesn't make them look bad?

I appreciate your help,
Response #12:  
Absolutely you need to take care of yourself, and it is small for a person to begrudge you that, not to mention ignorant of your situation (if ignorant) or callous (if knowing better).

There are plenty of immature believers out there in Laodicea. Putting up with them is always a chore. This is one of the reason that those who really are pursuing a closer relationship with the Lord have trouble finding kindred spirits – there aren't many of them out there.

So please don't let this "get your goat". Best policy is to forgive, forget and move on.

"Volunteering" is another one of those potentially evil tropes like "discipleship" and "witnessing" – the words aren't necessarily bad and there is potentially a "good" version of these things. It is good to share the Lord . . . in the right circumstances; it is good to want to follow Him . . . in the right way; it is good to help other Christians . . . with things they really need which will bring them closer to Christ if the situation is one the Spirit guides us to. But buttonholing everyone we meet and jamming things down their throats is NOT biblical witnessing; and inserting oneself into someone else' life and telling them what to do (or allowing someone to do that to you) is NOT biblical discipleship; and volunteering where there is no biblical purpose and where it doesn't actually contribute to what Christ wants (the spiritual growth, progress and production of those being aided) is often R.C.-type works and that has nothing to do with biblical Christianity. If someone likes doing some activity and wants to do it and it really does help people – coaching a kids' soccer team, being scout leader, for example – I have no problem with that. Whether or not there is a spiritual aspect to the volunteering depends on the situation and what the Lord has for you personally.

So your reaction of "no thank you" to sacrifice yourself on someone else' ignorant assessment of you and your situation, I endorse. But it is a test, because we frequently are attacked by the evil one in this way, that is, supplying individuals who proffer to us things which immature Christians and marginal Christian groups call "good" – even though they are not so in God's eyes – and who then look down on us for not rushing down the same wrong path ourselves. They – and the devil who is calling this tune – do everything they can to make us feel guilty; if we react to that and get angry, it's also a mistake. 

We are going to be seeing more and more of this sort of thing the closer we get to the Tribulation, so a little inoculation against it like this is not a bad thing.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #13:   
I have read many emails where you have addressed people bringing up false/devil worship religions and you have always come back to the power of the Word when upholding your faith. Do you think about the power of the Word when you want to personally come back to the basis of your faith in the Person and work of our Lord? I ask this because once in a while I get attacks of doubt and I used to come back to the philosophical points behind my faith in Jesus (like that long document I sent you), but now I come back to the Word's power and how the Spirit has freed me from my flesh, which He has. I ask you about this exercise of coming back to the core of faith in Christ because, as you know, we live in a difficult world, where very few know what's going on and I find it truly bewildering and startling. The stakes are so high and people just don't seem to care.
Response #13:    
If I'm understanding your question correctly, my response would be that it all comes back to the cross of Jesus Christ. Remembering that we have a perfect God and Father, remembering that His plan is perfect in every way, and remembering first and foremost that Jesus died for our sins – dying for the least of which is more valuable than the entire universe – is "centering" for me personally. The more we grow in Him, the easier this becomes as we walk more closely with Him. Please see BB 6A under "Focusing on Christ".
Question #14:   
Hello!

Hopefully, this finds you to be well. 

Might you be able to direct me to articles or topic terms regarding/pertinent to a) the "Acts church" movement and b) reliance on Early church fathers and tradition (vs. correctly understanding the Bible to be authoritative and sufficient)? 

Regarding (a), I'm referring to the movement that seems to misunderstand that Acts is a historical book during which Christians were transitioning in understanding and practice from the Old to the New Covenant. 

Thank you kindly! 
Response #14:    　
Ichthys is a Bible teaching ministry rather than an apologetic one (with the purpose of that type being to examine, explain and refute false doctrines and false groups rather than provide positive material for spiritual growth as is the purpose of this one). So while I do occasionally answer questions about this sort of thing when they come up, I have never done anything on this group/movement because I've never been asked about any "Acts church movement" before . . . and have never heard of it – except to say that nearly all groups which are off on their theology, a little or a lot, have their misunderstanding of the book of Acts to thank for that at least in part (here's a link that's helpful on this score: in BB 6B, "The Nature of the Book of Acts").

In terms of still being influenced by the church fathers, mostly here we are talking about Roman Catholicism and the Greek Orthodox church. However it is also true that the reformers did pay them heed (more than their due, in my view). Calvin's famous "Institutes" drew heavily from them – when he would have been better advised to stick with scripture; but that was an apologetic work in the main. Mainline Protestants and far too many evangelicals as well are still heavily influence in their theology by Augustine, a man whose status as a believer I personally doubt; we can say that he got everything wrong. So even groups which pay lip-service to the "full sufficiency" of scripture as their guide, often still have got a lot of kinks in their doctrinal systems inherited from a long way back and from people who did not.

If you'd like to give me a name or website I'd be happy to interact with it/that!

Hope you are doing well, my friend! I keep you and your family in my daily prayers.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:   
Hi Prof. Bob,

Thank you for the prayers, response, and availability! 

The article was such a mess I quit reading it and __ was able to check it out also. 

I'm going to leave that can of worms for now.

Overall, continuing to be challenged so much in my walk, and I believe the Lord has been so faithful. 

It seems I often find myself at a fork; one seems to be wrought with a lot of fear, self-imposed martyrdom, and generally legalism while the other focuses on prioritizes the explicitly commands revealed in Scripture, trusting the Lord and loving others. 

I fear the former "could be" the "right" way, but then that just doesn't make sense. Those fruits seem so rotten. 

I really have no hope apart from the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ; yes, I can wake up, and pursue the Lord with all vim and vigor, but I will still fall short. That said, hopefully, the falls will be less often and less severe. 

Have a blessed day! Looking forward to the emails Saturday! 
Response #15:    
"I really have no hope apart from the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ" Amen! None of us do! We all need His grace and mercy more than anything. People who imagine they don't are the ones who need it most of all.
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith.
Galatians 3:23-26
It's all about faith: us trusting the Lord to save us, heal us, help us, lead us forward day by day and on into eternity.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #16:   
Hi Robert, 

What's your personal take on the Adventists and their beliefs?
Response #16:   
While I wouldn't want to suggest that I'm fully conversant with all of the ins and outs of this denomination's doctrinal positions, clearly, making a "federal case" out of "worshiping" on Saturday instead of Sunday is problematic. 

If memory serves, this is indicative of their legalistic approach to things generally. All denominations have issues because denominations are not biblically authorized and always produce doctrinal errors as a result (not to mention fostering all manner of non-biblical practices; see the link in BB 6B: "The Assembly of the Local Church"). 

Based on this and other things I have heard, I couldn't recommend them (I do have one email posting where they are mentioned briefly at the link).

I'm very sorry to hear about ___. If you read the most recent posting you see that others have this same problem. I continue to keep __ in my prayers daily.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #17:  
Bob my friend, 

I just wanted to send you an email of encouragement. I realise that I don't do this nearly enough but reading through the emails today has prompted me.

It has saddened me and shocked me to read of declining readership numbers and less people who are interested in the truth. I can't express how huge your ministry has been in my life since Salvation! I don't know how I could have grown without it and the Lord has really blessed me and fed me through it.

I cannot speak more highly of all the work you do for our Lord and His sheep. I am biased of course but I cannot imagine a more professional and Spirit led ministry and I have grown so much under your gracious and generous provision. I have grown so much that I don't hanker after ear tickling false teaching or false fellowship and the truth is more important to me now than any fleshly concerns that I used to grieve over.

Reading that the workers in the vineyard are now few and far between makes me even more determined to be one of them and get busy striving until the day is done. Amen!

Ichthys is my church and you are my Pastor Teacher and for that I am eternally grateful for our Lord to have been blessed so abundantly with your teaching. Amen! 

It is part of my daily life and I visit your ministry every day and throughout the day. I also keep you and your ministry in my daily prayers.

Your student in Christ,
Response #17:    
Thank you so much for your encouraging email, my friend! It really did my heart good. What I am even more happy about is your personal spiritual growth and the consistency you have built up and built into your life. That is so important. We may all have hard times ahead, but by walking close to the Lord, something only possible for those who are doing what you are doing, it will not only be possible for us to survive but to thrive – and to glorify Him by our good witness of the life.

Keeping you in my daily prayers, my friend – and thanks as always for yours so much as well!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18: 
Hello Dr. Luginbill!

Hopefully, you’re doing however you ought to be in the Lord! 

I have some remaining questions if I may share them. I’ve tried to organize them, but if this is too many - or if a different format is better for you- please, let me know.

A) How can one not be a hypocrite? For example, if you feel really agitated with someone, but you know you need to do XYZ so you do it anyhow; similarly, expressing gratitude when you don’t quite feel it, but it’s clearly the appropriate thing to do.

B1) How can epignosis be expedited? I just intellectually "decide", and “fake it ‘til I make it”? Study and get help to resolve "blockers" to acceptance? Wait on God? All the above? ( https://ichthys.com/Pet24.htm#Faith%20is%20More%20than%20an%20Intellectual%20Process: , #1 https://ichthys.com/mail-encouragement-spiritual-testing-spiritual-growth.htm#godliness )

B2) What is the relationship (for lack of a better word) between the Spirits power and role and our own efforts? Despite all my reading, studying, and wondering I can’t seem to really understand the nuance.

C) Can we earn more of God's love (or favor, perhaps those are different?)? I understand believers can become unbelievers, but can we become more or less loved? For example, I assume God loves the Apostle Paul or Abraham more than He would me. 

D) You know the multitude of "terms and conditions" people are supposed to "accept" prior to using websites, phones, software etc? What is an earnest believer supposed to make of those? Assuming one reads all of it, I don’t imagine we’ll either remember or necessarily be able to be a “model” user since Christian’s beliefs are so unlike the direction the world is moving.

Believers shouldn’t exit the world, and without a phone, utilities, internet, or any purchases you would be doing as much, we also should be true to our word, but based on my attempts it’s seeming unsustainable if not impossible to keep up with the pages of regularly updating terms. 

E) Lastly, I have been following Bible Academy (link), and wanted to clarify an assumption I had; I know you discourage people from following many teachers, but given your recommendation of his ministry I assumed they were aligned closely enough to be an exception to that? 

Thank you kindly! Take care during these times; what goofy days…
Response #18:  
Happy to answer you're questions. And I'm doing fine! Thanks for your good wishes.

Re: hypocrisy. The hypocritical Pharisees in the gospels were doing things like pretending to be godly when they were anything but. Be pleasant with someone even when your sin nature doesn't "feel it" is not the same thing. One could even call it shining your light in Christ.

Re: epignosis: You believe the truth and it becomes epignosis. You can't fake faith. If there is anything a person has trouble believing, my old pastor used to call those "bones", you set that aside and resolve to let it go for another day so as not to let one "bone" destroy your spiritual momentum. If you are learning from a good source, then as more and more pieces start to fall into place, so will the "bones", eventually.

Re: the Spirit: As you grow, you will "get this" more and more. If we listen to the Spirit, He will lead us. His "still small voice" is all about reminding us, reminding our consciences and hearts, of truth we have learned, then empowering us when we are willing to deny our natural inclinations then follow the truth we have believed instead. We choose to learn the truth; we choose to believe the truth; we choose to follow the truth. The Spirit prompts us to learn, converts knowledge to "full knowledge" when we believe, guides us and encourages us and empowers us to apply that truth and live by it . . . when we are willing. But He does NOT force us. We have to be eager to respond. And if we are honest with ourselves we know very well when we are responding and willing to do so and when we are not.

For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the [true] sons of God.
Romans 8:14

Re: God's love. God IS love (1Jn.4:8) and His love is unlimited. We enter into / experience more of that love in the same was a stated above: we grow closer to Jesus Christ the more we learn about Him and the more aggressive we are in embracing His truths and diligently remembering and applying them. We can rejoice in the Lord always as David did – but do we? There is no limit on the joy we can have in the love of Christ. As Paul told the Corinthians, "There is no lack of love on our part, but you have withheld your love from us" (2Cor.6:12 NLT).

Re: "terms and conditions": LOL – not even their own lawyers read all of these things! We essay to be good and honorable in all that we do. I dare say that you have never done anything with any of these devices / software that any reasonable person would find disreputable. So I really wouldn't worry about this one at all.

Re: Bible Academy (link): I do understand that this may seem to be somewhat contradictory. Ideally, the Church should be teaching the same thing everywhere. And there is really no good excuse why it is not. Had the church-visible always done its job the way God intended and made possible with the Spirit, the canon and spiritual gifts, the points upon which genuine Christians seeking whole-heartedly to follow Christ disagree would be few and far between. As it is, there are very few groups, teachers and individuals who qualify under that description. And since it is only relatively recently that much of this teaching has been "recovered", so to speak, even between such like-minded ministries there may be small points of divergence. But there is a big difference between different species of "apple trees" which are all producing good fruit (a small number of these in the world today), and those whose fruit is withered, inedible or rotten to the core (the vast majority of "trees" out there today). My policy is to joyously accept the former (of which Bible Academy certainly is one), and warn believers off of the latter.

Hope you are doing well too, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #19:   
Hi Dr. Luginbill!

How are you doing? We’ve had some things on this end, but God is good.

Before I forget, we had a sheep rather suddenly and violently die recently; I’m no pastor, but maybe that will help me empathize with the challenges a pastor/teacher may have as he witnesses the life challenges or choices of those in his “flock”. 

If any believer is feeling a bit arrogant, they’d be well served to spend a smidgen of time with an actual sheep; they’re not the brightest animals and yet ones we’re referenced to in the Bible. 

I added a few more questions at the bottom; thank you in advance for receiving them!

Re: hypocrisy: Thank you! 

Re: epignosis: As far as setting aside the bones, I think this could help me a lot. Would you say one approaches this in an act of faith- entrusting the Lord to reveal His truth, and not getting ourselves lost in a rabbit hole to “figure it out”?

Re: God's love: So, is it that the question isn’t about “earning more” of God’s love, but rather drawing closer to Him to realize the love already present for us in Christ?

Re: "terms and conditions": Thank you! This, I think, would be such a wonderful analogy for someone living their spiritual walk in legalism. 

Re: Bible Academy: Thank you! I think I understand. I also think this will give me food for thought on when to divide on fellowship with other believers. 

Re: the Spirit: “But He does NOT force us. We have to be eager to respond. And if we are honest with ourselves we know very well when we are responding and willing to do so and when we are not.” I will use this to springboard into a modified question….

Productive striving: I’m confused by a trend I see in my life; it seems as though I can go into my day with a focus and intensity to do the right thing and reject sin, but I don’t necessarily end up being very peaceful, kind, patient or pleasant. Maybe I ebb towards legalism and that effort isn’t focusing enough on the Lord but rather my own efforts?

Endless regulations: I know you’ve shared how believers shouldn’t associate with people who do “criminal activity “, but how does that translate to “ordinances”? There are so many rules sometimes I’m confident we’re not all aware, and I don’t think it seems likely we’d break fellowship over, say, someone who picked a state park wildflower or crossing a dead empty crosswalk. I don’t want to turn into a meddler ensuring everyone knows all the seemingly benign rules.

Psalms: I have some verses that I don’t understand how to interpret them in this New Covenant. 

Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord! Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways!” Ps.119:1-3 

(Who doesn’t do wrong other than the Lord ?!)

“Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies.”Psalm 139 : 21 - 22 

“For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.”
Psalm5 : 4 - 6 

Have a blessed day in the Lord! Thank you for the time!
Response #19:    
It's good to hear that the Lord brought you through your unspoken trials. Happy to report the same on this end, my friend!

Thanks for the sheep illustration too. Indeed, all sheep need a shepherd, and it's never been good for a sheep to go wandering off on his/her own. Lots of wolves out there, along with the unlikelihood of finding safe pasture and still waters without a good shepherd (Ps.22:1ff.).

Re: "As far as setting aside the bones, I think this could help me a lot. Would you say one approaches this in an act of faith- entrusting the Lord to reveal His truth, and not getting ourselves lost in a rabbit hole to “figure it out”?" I think that is an excellent way to put it and to think about it. As my old mentor/pastor used to say, "If you stick with this or any good teaching ministry, eventually all of your questions will be answered". And I can also affirm that many who have done just that with Ichthys have reported to me years later that such was the case.

Re: "So, is it that the question isn’t about “earning more” of God’s love, but rather drawing closer to Him to realize the love already present for us in Christ?" That is also an excellent application. We do also find that grace does abound for those who continue to draw closer to the Lord day by day:

But he gives greater grace. Therefore he says: God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.
James 4:6-8a CSB

Re: "striving", we can't expect to become world-class spiritual "athletes" overnight. You are running a good race. Keep it up. If you do, you'll get better at it. That's the way most things in the this life work.

Psalm 119:3, Evil is wickedness. We all sin from time to time, but there surely is a difference between that and downright evil. The verse is speaking of unbelievers in the main.

Psalm 5:5: God is love and does not / cannot actually "hate". This is an anthropopathism (see the link), that is, the attribution to God of human emotions in order to explain to us His attitude (for want of a better word) towards various human actions. For our own good, God does not want us to pursue wickedness. What better way to express that to us who cannot really comprehend His deity than to tell us that He "hates it"?
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
1st Corinthians 9:24 NIV

No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
1st Corinthians 9:27 NIV

I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:14 NIV
Keep on running!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #20:   
How does the Lord both love and abhor unbelievers??
Response #20:    　
God wants all to be saved (1Tim.2:4), but not all will be on account of their own hardness.  He loved them enough to sacrifice His Son for them.  Nothing says love like the gift of Jesus Christ.  But what do we expect His attitude to be towards those who absolute refuse to accept the Gift of gifts?
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23 NIV
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