http://ichthys.com/ 
Salvation, the Gospel, and Unbelief VIII

Question #1:  
Dear Bob,

I went to a funeral today for my neighbour and I was wondering ...

Why wouldn't a person want to be saved? Now that I myself am saved, I cannot understand why it took me so long! I can't even relate to the old me! It seems so natural to have faith now!

Why would anyone want to reject God's wonderful free gift?

Since finding out about Unitarianism and the Moonies, I have been almost terrified of losing my faith/Salvation. I realise how much deception is about abroad and I find it so disturbing.

Why wouldn't being without Jesus forever terrify people?

In Jesus, 
Response #1:  
Hope you made it back home OK – and are not suffering too badly in the heat.

You have nothing whatsoever to worry about in terms of salvation. Have confidence that you belong to the Lord and that you are doing your level best to walk closely to Him. Apostasy is what comes to those who "believed for a while, but in time of trouble" they fall away (Lk.8:15). You have survived much "trouble" already – and it has merely strengthened your faith.

As to the "why?", one could equally ask why the devil, the most privileged individual in the universe, saw fit to rebel against God and tried to overthrow Him. The Bible tells us the answer to that one: pride (Is.14:12-15; Ezek.28:12-19). Arrogance is at the foundation of all rebellion against the Lord, and refusing salvation is just one aspect of that. The devil was #1 among creatures – but that was not enough. He wanted to #1 over God as well. That is crazy! But arrogance corrupts the heart like nothing else. 

One would indeed think that in the face of unavoidable death, everyone would grasp eagerly at the prospect of eternal life – especially since it is not onerous at all to receive it: "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (Rom.10:8). But in fact, unbelievers who reject the gospel are far more likely to warm up to religions which require difficult things from them "to be saved" – because that way THEY get to "do something". And it is all about "THEM", not God. Arrogance again.

Just as Satan wanted a kosmos without God wherein he ruled supreme, so every unbelievers in his/her heart of hearts doesn't want anything to do with God. He/she doesn't want to be told what to do by anyone, least of all the Almighty. THEY want to determine what is right and wrong and what it takes to be saved, etc., etc. They would all be happy enough to have eternal life . . . just as long as they don't have to worship God or have anything to do with Him, just as long as they get to set all the ground rules, just as long as THEY, in the manner of the devil, get to play God.

For all such, attending to lies and giving into arrogance leads to a hardening of the heart to the point where the truth is totally obscured and the pressure of death and its consequences can be ignored and denied respectively. Without that ability, these types would probably not be able to make their eternal choice with uncoerced free will. After all, anyone seeing God face to face – and being prevented from perishing – could not help but worship and obey Him. So He veils Himself – except through the truth of the gospel for those who want to know Him (and unlimited truth available thereafter for all who do respond). All others are given this life to demonstrate what is truly in their hearts, but after that they get what they want deep down: an eternal existence without God . . . in the lake of fire.

Blessedly, WE are looking forward to Christ's return, the resurrection, our eternal reward, New Jerusalem, and the privilege of worshiping the Lord we love so much in perfect unison with all our brothers and sister in His Church who likewise prefer Him and His truth to all else, even unto death. That is the way eternal life.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
p.s., plenty about all of this in BB 4B: Soteriology
Question #2:  
Hello Dr. Luginbill,

Today in our Bible Study my wife and I looked at John 3:16, one of the very familiar scripture verses for many people. In that verse it says: "whoever believes in Him shall not perish"

I looked up the Greek word in Strongs concordance, which I don't really think is that good and it says this for the word "perish": ἀπόληται, apolētai. The definition they provide is: to destroy, destroy utterly".

The German Bible my wife uses says: "die an ihn glauben, nich veloren werden".
I think that the word "Lost" would have been a better translation instead of "perish" .

I looked at 27 translations and 24 of them have "Perish" and the other three have "lost". Is the word "perish" in the Greek correct or "lost" more relative. This is what Jesus said: 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”"

The word "begotten" used in this verse is also troublesome, but You and I have already discussed that.

Thanks always for your great help.

May you be blessed in abundance with His grace and love.

Your friend,
Response #2:  
The word in all of these cases is the same one, the one you found in Strong's (apollumi). However, it makes a big difference what form this verb is in. In the active voice, it means to destroy; in the passive voice, it means to be destroyed. But there is also a "middle" in Greek and, in the second aorist, a "quasi-passive". So in between destroying and being destroyed, "lost" is not a bad translation – as long as one understands what that means: i.e., not saved, destined for the lake of fire. So "perish" is also not bad. The Latin translation of Luke 19:10 has not "lost" but "to make safe that which had perished" (since what we have there is actually the perfect participle of apollumi).

How's your health? 

Keeping you and your family in my prayers, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #3:  
Robert can I be saved by saying believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved over and over again through the day and through the night?
Response #3:  
You only have to say it / believe it in your heart once to become a believer – which I suspect you already are (or you wouldn't be concerned about it at all).
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
Romans 10:8-11 NKJV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #4:  
Robert I don't have the holy spirit in me and I'm frightened
Response #4:  
How do you KNOW you don't? The Spirit is invisible as is His ministry. 
Question #5:  
Robert I don't have peace or joy or the fruit of the Holt spirit or any battle with the flesh and the spirit that is the reason I don't have the holy spirit living in me.
Response #5:  
These are things are not automatic. They only come with spiritual growth. 

My R/x is spiritual growth and lots of it (I would recommend starting with the Peter series at the link).
Question #6:  
Robert the holy spirit is to be living in me when I believe in him and he is not; please don't give up on me; do you have the holy spirit living in you? I have no peace or joy keep praying that the Lord will save me and again; please don't give up on me/ please ask the Lord not to give up on me and save me.
Response #6:  
Peace and joy – and all of the other manifestations of the Holy Spirit and His ministries to us – are not automatic. They develop and grow as a believer grows in the truth and develops his/her relationship with Jesus Christ. Believers are indeed given a "honeymoon", so to speak, immediately after believing, but the joy of being saved is only perpetuated if said believer commits to spiritual growth. Sadly, in our Laodicean day, very few churches teach new believers even the basics of Christian doctrine, so that there are many who are in your situation, that is, being saved but not "feeling it". We only "feel it" when we "know it" through faith in the truth, and we only get the truth through good Bible teaching, consistently heeded and believed.

So there is no way you can "know" that you do NOT have the Spirit. 

However, you certainly CAN know if you are a believer in Jesus Christ or not. And if you are a believer, then you most assuredly DO have the Spirit as all believers do (Rom.8:9). That is true whether or not you are "feeling it" at any given moment. The Christian life is not about "feeling" but faith. And as we grow in faith and truth, our emotions will come along for the ride eventually.

I you want peace and joy, that comes not merely from praying but from spiritual growth. To be able to have peace in spite of the troubles of this life – and be joyful in the midst of suffering – requires prodigious spiritual growth. That is achieved through daily persistence in accessing good, solid, orthodox Bible teaching, believing it, and applying it to your daily walk. 

So I encourage you to begin making use of this ministry to grow in a serious way. That will result in what you desire. Prayer is wonderful, but if we pray for food, for example, and are not willing to work for it, using the talents and opportunities the Lord provides, we should not be surprised if we go hungry. The benefits of spiritual growth, of which peace and joy are a part, work the same way.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #7:  
Robert can you send me more information on joy and peace and more and why does not the spirit witness to me telling me I am a child of God; why is there no battle going on between the flesh and the spirit. I'm not trying to be smart about it I just want to find the true answers about these things.
Response #7:
First, apologies for the delay. I do the email postings on Saturday (to provide readers with an alternative "Sunday fare" of teaching which they won't be getting in church), and so don't have time to get to emails that come in Friday late until Sunday late.

As to your question, what makes you think that the Spirit is not witnessing to you? The Spirit's witness is not deafening like a wind storm – it is a "still, small voice" (1Ki.19:12). The Spirit witnesses to us, guides us, by speaking to our consciences, to our hearts, through reminding us of the truth we have heard AND believed. But if we are not listening to the truth, if we are not believing the truth, if we are not setting ourselves to hear that "still, small voice", then we won't. In my observation and experience, it doesn't take much of a positive turn of heart to begin receiving the Spirit's encouragement – but it does take SOMETHING; we don't get anywhere by sitting around waiting for it.

As to "no battle", that is not what I'm seeing. If there were no battle, you would never have contacted me in the first place and wouldn't be continuing with this conversation.
(16) But I tell you, walk in the Spirit and you will not carry out what the flesh lusts for. (17) For what the flesh lusts for is contrary to the Spirit's will, and the Spirit is opposed to what the flesh lusts for. Since these are diametrically opposed to each other in this way, what you are doing is not what you yourself choose.
Galatians 5:16-25
Notice the command here: walk in the Spirit! If you are not doing that, then of course the flesh will be winning the struggle. You have to fight back through the Spirit . . . which means fighting back through the truth, learning it, believing it, applying it – in faith and confidence that if you DO fight, the Spirit will help you. But if we sit there like bumps on a log, nothing good will happen. If you want the Spirit's help, then accept in faith that He is in you and take pains to listen to His gentle whispers.

Here's a link on your question: "Joy and Peace".

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #8:  
Robert I believe that I have committed the unpardable sin; would you pray to God for me and to forgive me for it?
Response #8:  
The "unpardonable sin" is the sin of rejecting Jesus Christ; that is, being an unbeliever. If you believe in Jesus Christ, no matter what fault you find with yourself, you have NOT committed that sin. That is the sin of being an unbeliever, the sin of rejecting the testimony of the Spirit about Jesus Christ (Mk.3:28-30, esp. v.30; see the link), the only sin for which Christ could not die because He "cannot deny Himself" (2Tim.2:13).

Plenty of believers go on a long prodigal son journey away from the Lord, getting into real spiritual trouble, but are still believers deep down. In my estimation, that is your situation. About the worst thing you could do to yourself is, instead of determining to return as the prodigal did, instead to sit out there in that far country eating carob pods with the pigs. There is no need for that. God is not requiring you to punish yourself like that. Like the good father in that parable, the Father is waiting and yearning for your return – and He is ready to restore you as that father did.

What is needed is a commitment to spiritual growth. As you begin to recover, everything will look brighter day by day. But you DO have to make the effort to return, just like the prodigal.

Here's a link you should read: An Extended Conversation on the 'Unpardonable' Sin

As to forgiveness, scripture tells us unequivocally that we are forgiven whenever we confess whatever we have done:
I acknowledged my sin to You,
And my iniquity I have not hidden.
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,”
And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
Psalm 32:5 NKJV

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1st John 1:9 NKJV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #9:  
Robert I don't even know if I am a believer; would you be able to call me on Tuesday the time here is 8:05 pm please let me know.
Response #9:  
I don't do telephone counseling; only email answers to believers' questions.

If you believe in Jesus Christ, you are a believer; if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you are not a believer.

As our Lord Himself said . . .
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
John 3:18 NKJV
Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Then you are a believer.

If not . . .
"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!"
Acts 16:31
In Him,

Bob L.
p.s., signing off for the evening.
Question #10:  
Robert I was listing to your message on Romans 5; you said that if you don't have the holy spirit you are none of his; that ie what Romans 8:9 says; and I don't have the holy spirit; I'm 64; can you please pray that the holy spirit works in my heart and when I'm listing to you on tape I hear you with my physical ear; I don't hear with inward hearing in the heart; can you pray for me for this as well so I can understand spiritually?
Response #10:  
You've been listening to the MP3 files at Ichthys? If so, that's great (please check out the re-mastered ones at the link)! But since you said "tape" (nothing from me on tape), I would like to make sure that you are actually referring to something you heard from me and not someone else (I haven't done a series on Romans).

For one thing, I feel I would have been more likely to say that if you ARE a believer then you DO have the Holy Spirit (rather than putting the issue in negative terms).

Because I reiterate, if you DO believe in Jesus Christ, then you DO have the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:9).

How can you possibly say "I don't have the Holy Spirit"? How would you know that? What is your litmus test for that? You told me that you are not feeling joy and peace. That is true of many Christians since few Christians today are committed to the hard work of spiritual growth which brings peace and joy – and many other blessings. 

It doesn't happen without hard work. It doesn't happen without a fight. The same way you were saved (by believing the truth) is the same way you have to advance spiritually (Phil.3:16; Col.2:6-7). However, being saved took only an instant; growing to spiritual maturity is a long, hard slog of daily Bible reading, prayer, and, very important, accessing good Bible teaching (of which there is precious little around in these late innings of Laodicea) AND believing it AND applying it consistently to your life. If you do these things, you will give the Holy Spirit something to work with – because He works through the truth you have believed in your heart when you are responding to that truth correctly. Having the Spirit does NOT overrule your free will. Making choices for or against God is the whole reason we are here in this world – the whole reason this world exists. The world is the great threshing floor wherein what we truly desire is being tested, to see if we want the Lord in the first place, and how much in the second after being saved.

There is nothing more important than spiritual growth. If you want to know more about the Spirit and the mechanics of these things, please see BB 5: Pneumatology: the biblical study of the Holy Spirit (at the link).

About the worst thing you could do is "have great faith" that you do NOT have the Spirit when you probably do (since you are probably saved), and that you are NOT saved when you probably are (or else you wouldn't be concerned about your salvation). 

Better to get cracking than to lie around inactive in despair and let the opportunity to grow and win the rewards the Lord wants you to win slip away. 

We're not down here forever.

Keeping you in my prayers.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #11:  
Robert I do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I read of him in the bible; it is not in my heart; can you please pray that the holy spirit would put it in my heart and that God would take away my hardened and calloused ears and my heart; I heard you in you tube; I have a frightened heart and had it for about 6 to 7 years; please pray that God would cast it away.
Response #11:  
First of all, I've never put anything on YouTube – so I don't know to whom you were listening (n.b., since time of writing some MP3s on the new Hebrews series have been posted there).

Second, you said, " I do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ". Compare that to this:
". . . whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:16 NIV
As I said, believers believe; unbelievers do not believe. If you believe, you are a believer.

I understand you don't FEEL like it. But the Christian life is NOT about "feelings". That is a mistake many if not most Christians in Laodicea are making.

If you do want to FEEL better, it's not a matter of a simple prayer – salvation is, but spiritual growth takes time and effort.

Have a little faith and start the process. I recommend beginning with the Peter series (at the link); I do NOT recommend "Smorgasbording" around the internet until you find someone who will stoke your fears (and lighten your wallet).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #12:  
Pastor Robert would you pray that God would regenerate me and cause his holy spirit to work in my inner deepest part of my inner heart? I'm 64 I need to be born again by the holy spirit of God.
Response #12:  
I am praying for you, but as a believer you HAVE been born again, born from above, and you DO have the Holy Spirit.

I guarantee you that the Spirit is working on you / with you – that is no doubt why we are having this conversation.

The thing is, at this point it is not incumbent upon YOU to have some faith and to begin the process of spiritual growth. It's no good waiting around for some "experience". What you need is to start spending time taking in the Word of God. There are no easy fixes.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #13:  
Doc, the devil is often referred to in many circles as "The Root Of All Evil". is this true though? I mean, he technically committed the first evil act right? and he's behind most of the evil going on in the world today. Is he really the ultimate source of evil though?
Response #13:  
Our Lord said . . .
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."
John 8:44 NKJV
But I've never heard of what you write here. 1st Timothy 6:10 says that "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil" – or more literally "all bad things". "Evil" in the Bible is usually the Greek or Hebrew word "bad". The connotations of the English word "evil" which suggest something worse than "bad" are later developments and not really biblical. If it's bad in God's eyes, we may call it evil, and understand that evil means "bad in God's eyes", the only opinion which counts.

But the English word "evil" may suggest some notions which don't have any biblical standing. The biblical distinction is between "good" and "bad" – as in "the tree of knowing [the difference between] good and bad" in the garden of Eden. 

The devil is "bad" and everything he does is "bad", and he is "the evil one" in scripture (that is a different word, poneros, meaning "base" and "vile". He is "a liar from the beginning and the father of it" and his arrogance, "I WILL" (Is.14:13ff.) is at the root of his rebellion from God – but we don't want to invest him with some sort of malevolent honor he doesn't deserve as if "evil" were some sort of special pixie dust (the opposite of what the RC's think about when they use the word "grace"). We stay away from what is bad and we cleave unto what is good. Amen?

Please read part 1 of Satanic rebellion for the details (at the link).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #14:  
Hello

You mention in the link that God has different punishments for different people who committed the same sin. Wouldn't that make God show favouritism?

Also in the bible it says that a person who knowingly does wrong, God will no longer the good they did. With such a person who repents, however long before they do is there still hope they can through hard work grow again fast and receive the same rewards they could have?
Response #14:  
To take these in reverse order, re: "in the bible it says that a person who knowingly does wrong, God will no longer [remember] the good they did", are you referring to Ezekiel 18:24? If so, that is talking about apostasy. Only believers are saved; for those who turn away from the Lord to the point of putting their faith to death, nothing positive they may have done before losing faith will matter (see the link).

As to "God has different punishments for different people who committed the same sin", I can't ever remember putting things that way (what "link" are you referring to?). 

I do think it is true that every single instance of sin is different from every other. There is "lying", for example, and there is "lying". Should God punish a person who says, "You look nice" in response to a direct question (even though that person might not really think so but is just trying to be polite) the same way He punishes someone who lies on the witness stand and sends an innocent person to the gas chamber out of malice against said individual, e.g.? That doesn't seem just to me (no human system of justice I know of works that way, that is, not taking all the relevant facts into consideration). One thing we can say is that God is absolutely just and that everything He does He does in complete knowledge of every single fact and circumstances beyond what we could ever imagine – and put it all into the perfect plan in eternity past, dealing with everyone always in complete faithfulness. 
To the faithful you show yourself faithful, to the blameless you show yourself blameless, to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd. You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.
Psalm 18:25-27 NIV
In addition to being absolutely just (see the link), scripture is also clear that there is absolutely no favoritism with God (see the link), so we can be completely sure that we are getting a "fair shake" from Him whatever happens. That can take faith to understand (as Job lost sight of this principle but Abraham held onto it in very trying circumstances for both), but it is the absolute truth.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:  
Are you a trinitarian?

Thanks
Response #15:  
Good to make your acquaintance.

If you mean, do I accept that Jesus Christ is God as well as a true human being (since the incarnation), of course! That is what the Bible teaches everywhere.
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
John 20:27-29 NIV
See also these links:
Jesus is God
The Essence of God and Deity of Christ
Where does the Bible teach that Jesus is God?
Christology Questions VIII: The Deity, Humanity and Life of Christ
Explaining and Defending the Trinity and the Person of Christ
In Jesus our dear Savior, "my Lord and my God".

Bob Luginbill
Question #16:  
Thanks Doc...I've seriously considered doing things I'm pretty sure no believer can do and remain a believer. [omitted]

If you truly think I'm apostate, tell me. I still try to believe in everything about Jesus and the Bible, but it's like I'm being ultra-forced into all manner of vile false belief constantly. Also if I actually did do something like that I would absolutely never forgive myself; in fact I always quickly remember that such things would just objectively be an awful idea regardless; not only would they be almost certain to obliterate my life irrevocably, they're just objectively horrific and near irredeemable acts, and anyone with a shred of conscience will be repulsed at the mere suggestion, which I am once I remember this...I'm sorry for telling you this, I just am very worried that someday my rage will get the better of me and I'll actually go through with some of this.

In short, I'm a very, very angry man, and sometimes I get too angry not only for my own good, but even those around me could be in danger if I don't come back to my senses; how do I fix this before something bad does happen to someone?
Response #16:  
I read this in scripture:
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
Matthew 12:32 NKJV
The ONLY sin that is not forgiven on confession to the Lord is that of not believing in Him (that is what "speaking against the Spirit" who is making the gospel clear to one's heart means). And why would someone who doesn't believe in Him confess to Him anyway?

Apostates are those who have abandoned their faith in Jesus and no longer want anything to do with Him. They are not believers who are struggling with sin and personal issues.

Spiritual growth is the answer to all these latter issues. We learn how to say "no!" to all that is bad (1Tim.2:12) and start embracing all that is good (Rom.12:9). That is not an overnight process, but just as a seed planted springs up – almost before one knows it – into a great tree, so with spiritual growth . . . if you apply a mustard seed's worth of faith.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #17:  
Thank you for taking time off on your usual ministry day to help. I know you're usually very busy this day of the week, and that's why you don't usually respond to emails today...So Doc, I'm very worried that someday I will fall away from the Faith, you probably guessed this already from all the "am I apostate?" messages. I do have brief moments where I get mad at God, misguided as that anger is, to the point where I want nothing to do with Jesus anymore...He always reminds me of the Truth though, why only He could ever be worthy of praise and glory, and that's usually enough to immediately bring me back, even if that's not enough, a reminder that without Him, there would be no such thing as good or truth is enough to correct me. How do I stop getting angry at God for the bad things in the world?
Response #17:
You're very welcome, my friend.

At the risk of repeating myself, spiritual growth is the answer to all our personal "ticks". Some people have a short temper. I have known a few. Like all other manifestations of the sin nature, the Spirit will help us resist that if we are following His lead. And how do we get better at listening to the Spirit and doing what He guides us to do? Through taking in more of the truth and believing it and making it a habit to apply it. The truth believed in our hearts is the Spirit's fulcrum, so to speak. The more we have, the more solidly we believe it and the more consistently we think about it, the more likely we are to be able to avail ourselves of the Spirit's help.

All of "this" however, is always about choice. So again, determine to choose what is good and reject what is bad. Those choices are why were are down here on earth in the first place.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18:  
Hello Mr. Luginbill,

I wanted to thank you for your online ministry; I stumbled across it during a Google search, and am grateful to have found the resources you offer.

Have a blessed day in the Lord!
Response #18:  
Good to make your acquaintance.

Thanks for your encouraging words – do feel free to write any time.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #19:  
Hey Dr. Luginbill,

I was just wondering if you could pray that my head could be as clear as possible so I can get as much spiritual growth in as possible. I've been having a lot of motivation and energy recently but it has been difficult to sit down and just get it done for various reasons. For many months now each week has been a little better than the last, and I just ask that you could pray for the process to be expedited even more. 

Thanks 

In our Lord,
Response #19:  
I do pray for you daily, my friend, and I will add this to the list.

Consistency in study is always difficult, so you're not alone. But if we put "first things first", it will get done. So keep your focus on "the things above" (Col.3:1-2), and remember that your work in the Lord is not pointless (1Cor.15:58), and that soon enough you will be standing before Him, receiving your evaluation (Rom.14:10). That ought to be sufficient motivation for anyone (2Cor.5:10-11).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #20:  
I thought about it more, and yes there are times when I am reading or listening to a lesson/sermon and when they say something wrong, I am aware because other verses that contradict their interpretation come to my mind. Is that what you mean by spiritual maturity?
Response #20:  
Spiritually mature believers certainly should have a firm grasp of basic biblical doctrinal principles (essentially, everything contained in the "Basics" series at Ichthys). Those in most churches out there today probably don't understand 10% of what is in that series, and much of what the churches themselves teach is generally wrong to some degree or another, sometimes heretically wrong. 

In terms of what spiritual maturity "is", however, there is a lot more to it. It's the difference between a toddler and someone who's just turned 21 – big differences in every way in the physical realm which reflect equally big differences between believers in those separate statuses in the spiritual realm. That growth comparison is one of the main analogies the Bible uses to express our drawing closer to Jesus Christ through the truth:
(11) Christ Himself appointed some of us apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers (12) in order to prepare all of His holy people for their own ministry work, that the entire body of Christ might thus be built up, (13) until we all reach that unifying [goal] of belief in and full-knowledge of the Son of God, that each of us might be a perfect person, that is, that we might attain to that standard of maturity of the fullness of Christ; (14) that we may no longer be immature, swept off-course and carried headlong by every breeze of so-called teaching that emanates from the trickery of men in their readiness to do anything to cunningly work their deceit, (15) but rather that we may, by embracing the truth in love, grow up in all respects with Christ, who is the head of the Church, as our model. (16) In this way, the entire body of the Church, fit and joined together by Him through the sinews He powerfully supplies to each and every part, works out its own growth for the building up of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:11-16
For more on all this, please see BB 6A: Peripateology, especially "Spiritual growth analogies".

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #21:  
Well I do have stronger faith now, and I do understand the Bible more and can better put it into practice. So that is there. And I am slowly working through Bible study, though the honest thing to say is that I don't give it as much time and many days as other things.

Anyway I was still thinking that that is the sore point, that when I listen in Sunday School/main service, I am expected to just believe their take for the most part. Whereas, if I go to an academic lecture on Ancient Greek, even if I don't agree but also did not say out loud to the person sitting next to me that I didn't agree with a part of it (or wasn't 100% sold), that expectation that I am to 'just believe' what the speaker said is not there. That isn't just in my head right?

Also I just realized I am currently working through the Bible Basics portion so there is that.

At least now I have a response when people ask if I go to church/why not-that I have a hard time finding good Bible teaching, and even that aside, I don't like the atmosphere of being required to just believe and accept the speaker's interpretation. I have found it is not a good experience for anyone when you disagree too much in this particular kind of group. But mostly the first thing.

Honestly some professors really are so willing to nicely discuss disagreements with you even though they do know so much, and some really enjoy it! Like you (well I don't know if you enjoy it lol). I like to hear different perspectives. I know there are some that don't like the pushback and may have a bit of an ego, but it just doesn't seem to be to the same degree. It is just weird because the you-have-to-believe-the-Bible-teacher, I am not sure if it is an argument from authority or what. But if it is, what are their qualifications? Their education. Signs and wonders. Or something. But many of them are proud of that they have very little education and are open about that. Anyway sorry to keep going.
Response #21:  
Re: "Well I do have stronger faith now, and I do understand the Bible more and can better put it into practice." Good for you! I know it's true from our correspondence – a result of spiritual growth.

No worries. This is the sort of thing which can stick in anyone's craw. It's another mark of maturity that it DOES bother you when you hear something "not right" that claims to be "Bible teaching". 

It's a long understood principle that no student can advance past the learning of his/her teacher (except by learning from a more learned teacher). That is important to remember in Laodicea when so many unqualified – and not even gifted by the Spirit – individuals have taken upon themselves the mantle of "teacher".

This is why it is so difficult for a believer who wants to advance spiritually to do so by means of going to a local church, since so few nationwide are teaching any sort of truth in the volume and orthodoxy necessary to grow. And this is why it is so difficult for a believer who has managed to grow – through accessing this or another good teaching ministry – to find any place to fellowship: most likely they will be served up pabulum. Baby food, as mentioned, may be good for babies, but it's not to the taste of anyone who has been weaned onto genuinely solid biblical food. Having to sit there and "eat it" for the sake of fellowship ought to annoy anyone. And most of us in that situation can't take it – and actually shouldn't.

So if we find ourselves in the wrong place, we need to keep looking for a good place. And if we've found a good place, well, they don't grow on trees these days (see the link).
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 7:15-20 NIV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #22:  
Hi Bob again,

I was just mulling something over and wondering if unbelievers can love?

The reason I ask is the Bible says that God is love. That would suggest logically that if you don't have God, they you don't have love. Paul says "If I have not love" but is that not a reference to God then? So the sounding gong and the clanging cymbal are all actions done in the flesh and not in the Spirit of God. These actions would be motivated for self aggrandisement (for the belly) rather than for the glory of God. If we seek the glorification of God then we truly love God and if we love God we are of the Spirit and then can love others. That is why we need to love God first as this is responding with faith to the Spirit's witness of Him. So is loving God first an act of faith? I realise also that whenever we don't put God first, that is idolatry and so we won't be walking in the Spirit so there won't be the fruit of the Spirit (love) but fruit of the flesh (sin).

So when we walk in the Spirit we will be walking in love as God is love. So if all the things that Paul mentions were done in love then they would be done in the Spirit. So love is the evidence of the Spirit, the fruit.

So back to the original question. Can unbelievers love? The Bible tell us God is love and then also tells us what love is. This description of what love is is the same as the fruit of the Spirit.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

This is a complete overlap isn't it. It's interesting that love is mentioned as being separate in Galatians and yet in 1st Corinthians it is stated as being synonymous if not epitomising patience and kindness. It does make me wonder why it is dealt with separately in Galatians. How can love not be patient and kind? If it isn't patient and kind then it isn't love is it?

So it is only by loving God, which is responding by faith to the Spirit's witness that we can love others. That would suggest that unbelievers not only do not love God but they do not love anyone else either. We can see this in the world. There is a great deal of talk of love but very little evidence of it.

In the Bible it also says that anyone who says they love God but hates their brother is a liar. So that would mean the true fruit of the love of God is obedience to His Spirit which leads us to love our brother. So the person who doesn't love their brother is lying about loving God. Loving God is obedience to His will through following the Spirit's lead. If we love Him, we obey the Spirit when it leads us to love our brother.

So again, this suggests that only the Spirit can lead us to love and as unbelievers do not have the Spirit then they do not have love, indeed cannot love. 

I've heard of such a thing as 'common grace'. Is this Biblical? Common grace may account for unbelievers experiencing love but not love made perfect in God. 
Can unbelievers love?

In Him,
Response #22:  
I'm not sure what it meant by "common grace". Grace is God's favor, His goodwill. Everyone has that by virtue of being given "life and breath and everything else" (Acts 17:25), because everything comes from Him (cf. Acts 14:17).  We believers grow in that grace as we draw closer to Him through the truth (Jas.4:6-8).

Unbelievers do not love God. If they did, they would turn to Him.

Believers do love God, but that love, like all love, is relative and can grow (or shrink), just like faith and hope (these three virtues often go together and grow or decline together).

In terms of "love" as in "love, love, love", and "all you need is love", human beings, unbelievers mostly, write so many songs, and works of literature about "love" and spend so much of their waking time and energy concerned about "love" directly or indirectly that it would hard to argue unbelievers do not love. They do love, on a personal level, but "so what?" What is the value or depth or import of that love? Even if a parent loves his/her child enough to die for them (some do), that doesn't get them anything in the end. It doesn't provide salvation for them or the beloved. In my experience and observation, pledging "undying love" is a whole lot easier to do than to come anywhere close to sustaining even minimal love during this short life. Human beings generally tend to be long on emotion and very short on character. That ought to be much more true of unbelievers than believers, but immature believers, of which Laodicea is full, are often not much better, and sometimes worse. 

In my opinion, observation and experience, character and consistency are far better and far more valuable than personal love and emotion. Better someone who is stodgy but determined "to do" if they say "I do!" than someone who is head over heels romantic . . . temporarily.

Unbelievers and believers are capable of both. But in the end, everything down here is dust, whether done with honor or flippancy. Only what we have done in the Spirit for the Lord and His Church are going to last. 
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:36-40 NIV
And if we really do love the Lord, then we will heed His words.
"A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
Luke 6:45-49 NIV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
http://ichthys.com/