The 144,000 and the Two Witnesses of the Tribulation

Response #3:  

You are very welcome.

As to your remarks about the "rapture", I find them very interesting. I was indoctrinated in this view when I was younger as well (by an otherwise quite solid Bible teaching ministry). I find your comment about the "many verses" which prove it confusing, however, since it was only in the process of trying to defend the idea of a pre-Tribulation resurrection that I was forced to abandon that dearly loved (false) doctrine – for lack of any biblical evidence whatsoever. This is a theory that only "works" if a person believes in it and then goes to the scriptures looking for it; it is not a view that a person would ever come up with by reading the Bible absent already believing it. That is probably why I have since bumped into very many believers who, on their own and merely through reading scripture, have abandoned that view, but I have never met a single person who did not believe in a pre-Trib rapture but who, through reading scripture, was persuaded of it.

It does make a difference. The Tribulation is close at hand. We live in the lukewarm era of Laodicea, and the rapture theory greatly contributes to the false sense of lukewarm security many of our entertainment-oriented fellow Christians share. This will mean that many will be going into the Tribulation completely unprepared spiritually – not because on this one point they are misinformed, but because misinformation on this point has contributed to a lackadaisical attitude toward spiritual growth in general.

As far as "Christ leaving His Church", I do not find that to be the case at all. In this world He has predicted we will have tribulation (Jn.16:33), and if we are properly prepared those entering the Tribulation will have untold opportunities to glorify Him through our faith and faithfulness (harder to do if totally unprepared spiritually, however). He will be with us . . . if we are with Him.

If interested, I invite you to look at the Greek word parousia in the NT and its usage. A fair assessment, in my view, is that there is only one "second advent", and that it is to this event that the word parousia always applies when used eschatologically. Here are some links on this:

Parousia

The Origin and the Danger of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture Theory

No Rapture

Three False Doctrines that Threaten Faith

Misplaced Faith in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

When is the Rapture?

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #4: 

Hi again,

I hope you and yours are doing well. Keep us in your prayers.

My question is what did Jesus mean in Mark 13:30 when He said, "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." Some teach that this is about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I would like your thoughts on it.

Response #4: 

I am continuing to keep you and yours in my prayers.

As to "this generation", unlike the English word, the Greek word in its usage can also refer to a general type of person as well as to a twenty year or so physical generation, and the former is our Lord's meaning here: the "hardness in part" talked about by Paul (Rom.11:25) will continue to be the dominant feature of Israel in general until the second advent – "and thus all Israel shall be saved". Here are a couple of links where I give more details on this point:

What did Jesus mean by "this generation"?

"O Faithless generation!"

"This generation" (Q#1)

"This generation" (Q#7)

Which generation is "this generation"?

The generation of hardness

P.s., as to the phrasing, our Lord may have had Jeremiah 2:31 in mind.

Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #5: 

Hi Bob,

I was wondering if you could look at one little section of the below video where the man is talking about where the Bible refers to things like "the powers of heaven shaken", "stars falling", "the sun darkened", "the sky rolled up like a scroll" etc. He says that stars of course cannot literally fall to the earth for if they did of course the earth would be destroyed and that most of this is "apocalyptic language" and "Hebrew idioms" that deal with God's judgment and that the Hebrew people would be very familiar with this type of language. Thanks. I don't agree with this man's eschatology views of course even though at one time I thought they made more sense than the futurist views until I found your website. But the biggest alerts that I later discovered that made me know that this man is not a trustworthy teacher is because I later learned that he is into all the tongues type things, he has a book about mysticism I believe, and he seems to not believe in hell fully. (He has a book about it, but I don't remember his exact beliefs). But anyway, here is that video and thanks for checking into it when you get a few minutes.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=5dEAbYqoANk

Also I was wondering if when the Bible speaks about Leviathan, and Behemoth if these are referring to some types of dinosaurs. Thank you.

It's always a joy to hear from you and you are always deeply appreciated for your kind and faithful service.

Your friend in Christ Jesus our dear Lord,

Response #5:  

I had a look at the video. This is typical of what happens when someone without the gift, without the languages, and without the dedication to look deeply into scripture feels the need to expound on things they don't understand. What a surprise to learn that this person has a book out for which he charges money.

A couple of quick points:

1) The word "star" in Greek and Hebrew does not have the specialized meaning it has for us today. For obvious reasons, the ancients had no idea of distinguishing between what today we call a star, a planet, an asteroid, a meteor or even a meteorite. Though these words connote vastly different things to us today and they are all celestial bodies (the last of which has fallen to earth), they are all the same thing to the ancients without regard to size. The Bible didn't say "the meteorites will fall to earth" because that is word of modern invention to make such distinctions. Clearly, Alpha Centauri (e.g.) will not be falling to earth during the Tribulation in the run up to the second advent – but there will be all manner of serious celestial disturbances unprecedented in human history (e.g., Rev.16:21). Part of that includes the falling from the heavens of meteorites – as in Revelation 6:13, quoting Isaiah 34:4 – but in Greek, the word remains aster, only because there was no convention to distinguish "scientifically" between enormously large and relatively much smaller celestial objects. So this is an English problem – or, better put, a problem of English speakers of the 21st century not understanding Greek and Hebrew and the conventions of the day in which scripture was written.

2) Youtube person does not seem to realize that there is a big difference between the sun and the moon and the stars being darkened on the one hand and the stars falling from the heavens on the other. He conflates the two ideas and two sets of passages as if they were saying the same thing and as if they meant they same thing – which they clearly do not, even in English. The sun is never said to fall to earth. And the moon is never said to fall to earth. Only the stars (meteorites) are said to fall to earth "like ripe figs" (relatively small objects in the comparison) "before the great and terrible day of the Lord". The supernatural darkness is one harbinger of Christ's return, and the shower of meteorites is another – as well as other astounding events such as earthquakes and tsunamis and immense hail – but they remain different harbingers, and it is unacceptable to conflate or equate them because they are simply not the same.

"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."
Luke 21:25-27 NIV

3) The "rolling up" of the sky/heavens refers to something else again entirely, namely, the destruction of the old heavens and earth in preparation for the creation of the new heavens and the earth, the place of New Jerusalem where only the righteous will dwell with the Lord forever, everything old and evil have been burned away forevermore:

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed [lit., be eager for] its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
2nd Peter 3:7-13 NIV

Failure to understand the essential outline of future eschatology as taught in scripture leads to all manner of misinterpretations, and that is what we have in this video (in spades). These things are treated in more detail at the following links:

The Earthquake: Divine Judgment and the Second Advent (The Sixth Seal) - where "stars" are discussed.

The Supernatural Darkness at the Second Advent

The New Heavens and the New Earth.

Such dumbing-down of biblical prophecy to explain away statements that "modern, scientific reasonable people" find uncomfortable (through lack of faith) is in part a result of failing to realize how the prophets of old used the paradigm of future judgment to express the reality of impending contemporary judgment (aka, "the Day of the Lord Paradigm" [see the link]). This person, however, takes the modern skepticism about what prophecy says to new heights to explain away the power of God and the truth of all that is coming. This is typical of people who explain away Jesus and His work: "Well (they blasphemously say), of course he was not really God, but merely a good man; and of course he did not really bear all of our sins; these are just analogies/illustrations" – denying the clear truth of scripture is the quickest route to compromising our faith, because very soon we will not know what to believe with the result that soon thereafter we will believe nothing at all.

Finally, in Job, Leviathan is apparently the crocodile and Behemoth the hippopotamus (they can't be dinosaurs in Job because Job is asked to consider their characteristics so that they had to be around to be observed in his day). Leviathan also occurs at Psalm 74:14 where the name is used symbolically for the Egyptian hordes destroyed by the Lord in the Red Sea. That name also seems to have been used in a more general sense of "great sea creature", for we find it used at Isaiah 27:1 where it refers to the defeat of the devil at Christ's return (and the name is paralleled by tanniyn, a Hebrew word meaning the same and sometimes translated "dragon", albeit erroneously; see the link). Finally, we also find Leviathan at Psalm 104:26 where it also has the generic "large sea creature" meaning. Since even today scientists often find that some variation in species is actually a separate species, it is certainly understandable how the ancients would not necessarily be able to distinguish between denizens of the deep, especially in the case of a non-seafaring mostly land-locked people like the Hebrews who had probably only heard reports of them. The Bible is not for that reason any less "correct"; as in the case of "stars", we have to understand the word "Leviathan" having a more generalized meaning than we would use today in contemporary marine biology.

Thanks so much for your prayers.

Your friend in Jesus Christ our Lord,

Bob L.

Question #6: 

Dear Dr. Robert Luginbill:

I shared to my family, children, grandchildren, my sisters, nephews and nieces, about the "Seven Days" of Human History which I copied from your website. Please take note of my comments and reword or correct it before I will send and or forward it to my email buddies all around the world. I consider your website the ultimate source of Biblical truths and verities before Jesus returns and I am cautious not to "cast pearls before swine" lest they might only trample and malign it.

Since I came across your website in 1996, I never stop reading and I recommended it to fellow Christians but it seems that they are not ready for it or that they might have been blinded by the devil lest they might come to know the glorious light of the gospel.

Praise The Lord for your anointing in sharing the Word of God in clear and valid terms. My wife and I will pray for your continuous work until Jesus comes down to rule the earth. More power to you and God bless you and your loved ones.

Timeline of the Seven Millennial Days according to God's Plan for Human History

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36

For this purpose finite man should be prepared at all times because we do not know the time, the place, and the manner of death when God takes us home. But we can know the year when the Lord comes during the SEVEN YEARS TRIBULATION [2026-2033] at the end of which the Lord Jesus appears to start His 1000 years rule of the earth – the Millennium in a perfect environment. As believers in Jesus Christ we are children of God indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit since the day of our redemption. Dr. Luginbill came up with his timeline from the known – the Life of Christ and 1000 years equals one day. We are now in the Age of the Church 2014, 12 more years before the start of the Tribulation Period. This is not something to be dreaded or to be afraid of. We only have to be prepared at all times. God knows how to protect His children (John 1:12). We are now living in the threshold of the end times.

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matthew 10:22, KJV

To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Remember God is in control of human history.

Click the hyper-linked The Satanic Rebellion: Part 5 to study the details of this study. Learn more about the author in his Curriculum Vitae. Learn any subject and he has an answer all for free.

In Christ,

Response #6: 

Good to hear from you, my friend. I certainly very much appreciate your good words and your solid vote of confidence in this ministry. We are all just flesh and blood – anything true we find and teach from scripture is a result of the Spirit's ministering to us from the Word. As to the synopsis you include here, it's quite good. I would only add one caveat – or set of caveats, really – namely, the same caveats I always put in whenever the timeline is discussed (duplicated here as taken from SR 5):

The most potentially controversial piece of information developed below, that is, the projected date for the commencement of the Tribulation, is based upon the following suppositions (all of which are treated within the context of this study):

• The seven millennial day interpretation is taught in scripture and meant to be understood and applied.

• The Church Age will last for two millennial days or 2000 years.

• The Church Age commenced following the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.

• These events took place in 33 A.D.

• The Tribulation belongs to both the Church and Jewish Ages and is therefore to be subtracted from the 2000 year total when calculating the start of the Tribulation.

• The half hour of silence in heaven at the breaking of the seventh seal (Rev.8:1) signifies a half year grace period that shifts the start point from spring to fall.

• Scripture gives no indication of either shortening or lengthening of this time-line, and therefore no such change of schedule is anticipated.

The above points are all presented here as true, and the analysis upon which they are based is set forth below. Clearly, deviation from any of the above will alter the entire scheme. It is also true, as we have already said, that alteration of the schema presented below is certainly within the power and authority of the Almighty. The very end of the Tribulation, for example, will be shortened by some undisclosed amount of time (Mk.13:20). Rather than undermining the theory advanced in this study, however, Mark 13:20 in actuality supports the importance of paying heed to the Bible's chronological information. For if "the days are shortened", then surely this means that there was a definite heavenly timetable in the first place. Secondly, Mark 13:20 indicates that the shortening mentioned is a matter of days, weeks at the most (i.e., not enough to change the general time-line given below). This is certainly in line with the very specific tally of days and months given in Daniel and Revelation (Dan.7:25; 8:14; 12:7; 12:11-12; Rev.11:2-3; 12:6; 12:14; 13:5).

From my point of view, it's important to make clear that this (i.e., the future timeline) is not any sort of prediction (I don't have that power); rather it is an interpretation, and the "how did you get that from the Bible?" is explained in the details of the studies that talk about this issue (SR 5 primarily, but elsewhere too).

Thanks again for your "evangelizing" for this ministry and, much more importantly, on behalf of God's truth. As you point out, the time is short, and if we are not spiritually prepared for what is coming, the going will be very rough indeed. It is out of such concern that this ministry was launched in the first place, and I very much appreciate your love and concern for your own friends and family in this regard as well.

Here's wishing (and praying) for your success in this matter.

Yours in our (soon to return) Lord Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #7: 

Hello man of God! Thank you for your information and quick responses. I would like to know from your information if you have ever considered this; Matt 16:27-28; Mark 8:38- 9:1; and Luke 9:26-27; where ... "some who are standing here will not taste death (till/before) they see the son of man coming in his kingdom/kingdom of God coming with power and/or seeing the kingdom of God." From our standpoint in history, I know that the 'some' standing there with him are dead, if the translation for "until/before" was correct, in what sense did the 'some' SEE? Zambia

Response #7:  

Our Lord was referring to the vision soon to be witnessed by the three disciples accompanying Him on the Mount of Transfiguration (related immediately afterwards in all three gospels). This vision was a "preview" of the second advent, and thus was the prophecy fulfilled for Peter, James and John (as Peter himself also says: 2Pet.1:16-18). Here is a link on this: in CT 3A: "The Transfiguration".

Yours in Jesus Christ whose return we so eagerly await,

Bob L.

Question #8: 

Hi Bob,

I am puzzled by the following:

"He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:11-13)

What does - "he will restore all things...Elijah has already come"- mean?

What were the things that were restored?

Response #8: 

The restoration that takes place during the 1st advent is the preparation for the coming of the Messiah (John's ministry), preparing the hearts of the willing for our Lord's own ministry (Lk.1:17); the restoration during the Tribulation in preparation for the 2nd advent is in principle the same, but it is carried out by Moses and Elijah, the two witnesses (see the link). Also, just as John's ministry was augmented by disciples and Jesus' final coming to Jerusalem was preceded by the ministries of the 12 and the 72, so the two witnesses' ministry will be disseminated worldwide by the 144,000. Thus the proper interpretation of this passage (Matt.17:11-13) has to do with the mystery of the two advents – or perhaps better put the near universal failure of our Lord's contemporaries to distinguish between the cross (as in v.12: "so also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands") and the crown in spite of our Lord's teaching:

He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
John 1:11 NKJV

"But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation."
Luke 17:25 NASB

And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?"
Luke 24:25-26 NASB

See also: "The Restoration Ministries"

In Jesus our Savior in whom alone is life eternal.

Bob L.

Question #9: 

Dear Dr. Luginbill,

In our Bible study group, we discussed the death of Moses and the fact that God buried him. In Jude 1:9 it states that Michael the Archangel disputed with the Devil over Moses' body. I read once that Satan has something to do with the human body once it has died. Do you think that is true?

Thanks for your time and effort.

Response #9:  

Good to hear from you again.

God's burial of Moses was a "burial" in heaven, so to speak; He took Moses' spirit out of his physical body and directed that said physical body to be preserved (as Elijah's is as well) for later resuscitation. It was at that point that the battle for the body took place (as Satan tried to hinder Michael's efforts in this regard). Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses of the Tribulation – that is why they appear with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (in interim body; see the link) which is a preview of the second advent. Both great men have "unfinished business", so to speak (Moses struck the rock and did not enter the land; Elijah ran away after his great victory at Mt. Carmel, and had to hand over his ministry to Elisha before the time). But in spite of failures, they are two of the greatest believers – and two of the (if not the) greatest Jewish prophets and leaders for the Lord who ever lived. For these reasons they are the ones the Lord commissions to lead the spiritual revival of Israel during the first half of the last seven years before Christ's return. They are restored to life as Lazarus was (and as others were), but the lapse of time between death and resuscitation is so great that special measures were necessary for the preservation of their first, physical bodies. Please see the links for more about all this:

The Two Witnesses

Moses and Elijah are the Two Witnesses

The Restoration Ministries of Moses and Elijah

Transmutation, Resuscitation, and Resurrection

The Bodies of Moses and Elijah

Enoch's Walk with God

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #10: 

Bob,

I have enjoyed reading your information very much. In reading, I realize how much time and effort went into its preparation. Thank you for sharing it with us. I have studied the Bible for many years but you have provided new insights for many subjects. I don't agree with all your beliefs but am studying to see if scripture substantiates what you say.

You won't believe what impresses me the most. It was your patience shown in the 12 questions and answers on Acts 2:38. I wish I had your endurance, patience and tolerance. 1st Peter 2:30 is a favorite of mine and I have memorized it and repeated it many times during times of stress.

I read with interest in "The Two Witnesses and the Ministry of the 144,000" where you say that Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses.

I believe it is going to be Enoch and Elijah because of Hebrews 9:27: "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment". Moses died and although his burial place was not known, it is mentioned several times that he died. If Moses is one of the two witnesses, won't he die twice? Lazarus and certain others died twice but it wasn't the final death. Is there something I'm missing? I like your ending on your answers to questions so I decided I should end my letters likewise.

In God who is my Father, Jesus who is my Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit who is my guide and counselor,

Response #10: 

Good to hear back from you, and thanks for all your positive and encouraging comments.

You are certainly not alone in wondering about the identification of the two witnesses. For some reason this is a "hot button" issue for a large number of people out there in the ether – oddly too, since it doesn't seem as if the difference should be profound enough to warrant all that interest . . . however, a false identification may lead to further confusion about the details of the Tribulation and the ministry of the 144,000.

If you have not already done so, in addition to the place where this is put forward systematically (in the CT series which you quote from here), please also see the posting "The Two Witnesses of the Tribulation: Moses and Elijah", wherein the reasons for this identification, Moses and Elijah, are presented a bit more forcefully, including demonstrating why other potential identifications are problematic. To mention just one thing here, Moses' "death" really involved being "taken" by the Lord, at least in terms of his body (so that his departure is more along the lines of that of Elijah than is sometimes understood; cf. Jude 1:9).

You have hit the nail on the head, so to speak, when you mention Lazarus as a real "fly in the ointment" for the objection that Moses' death is any sort of impediment based upon Hebrews 9:27. There are numerous others who fall into the same category too, e.g., the son of the widow of Nain, the young girl our Lord raised, the boy Paul brought back to life, etc. – and these are just of few of the named instances of what I call resuscitation (to distinguish from permanent, eternal resurrection). There were apparently also many who "came out of the tombs" after our Lord's death on the cross (Matt.27:53). So a fair number "died twice", if a person wishes to get technical about it.

On top of that, many will not even "die once" – that is, those of us who are alive and resurrected without physical death when our Lord returns (e.g., 1Cor.15:51; 1Thess.4:17). It seems very clear, therefore, that what Hebrews 9:27 is really saying is that no human being can live forever in this mortal body: this earthly life will come to an end, and after that there will be judgment, whether "of the living" for reward, or "of the dead" prior to being cast into the lake of fire – the second death, after all (e.g., Rev.2:11; 20:6; 20:14; 21:8). The fact that most human beings will in fact die one time physically merely makes this point: that is the "appointment" all have (even if in a very few cases the transition takes place somewhat uniquely). Here in Hebrews, Paul is merely saying a different way what he said in 1st Corinthians: " flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" (1Cor.15:50 NIV).

As I say, please have a look at the link provided above, and do feel free to write back with any questions you may have. As it turns out, it is imperative that the two witnesses – who minister in the temple and to Israel (managing the restoration of the temple and the worldwide witness of the 144,000 Jewish young men) be Jewish – and Enoch was not Jewish. Luke 10:1 and Luke 10:16 both show, in addition to the role of John the baptist (Lk.1:17), that preparation for our Lord's return of His (the Jewish) people to take up His Kingdom rule in Jerusalem as the Greater Son of David is at the root of the mission – hence being Jewish a prerequisite – for both the 144,000 and for those who direct them, Moses and Elijah.

Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Response #13:  

It's a fair question, and perhaps my speculation about just how much the devil "knew" is put a bit too boldly here. After all, Satan knows much but lacks wisdom on all counts, so that his knowledge, even when correct, is always flawed. We can say that Moses is an obvious "type of Christ", in fact, the most obvious "type of Christ" in all of history. I doubt that this escaped the devil's notice, and Michael's special efforts to preserve his body when he was taken would in any case thus be an obvious target for satanic resistance in my view. Still, it is certainly possible that Satan had not "figured it out" with the specificity indicated in the quote. I have suggested before that the entire Bible has long had a heavenly existence (whether or not the angels had complete access to it before it was written I cannot say), but if I were pressed for a passage from the Pentateuch that would point to making the connection I suggest at the quote, it would be this one:

"The Lord Your God will raise up from your midst, from among your brothers, a Prophet like me (i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom Moses will be analogous in type). You must give heed to Him, just as you requested from the Lord your God at Horeb (i.e., Sinai) on the day of your assembly [there], when you said, 'May I not hear the voice of the Lord My God any longer, nor see this great fire lest I die!' Then the Lord said to me, 'They have done well in what they have said. I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a Prophet like you. And I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. And it will come to pass that the person who does not listen to My words which He will speak in My Name, that I will require it of that person' (i.e., hold him responsible).' "
Deuteronomy 18:15-19

This passage is speaking about our Lord, to be sure, but when one takes into account the two advents and the necessity of the second being heralded by two witnesses as the first is by one, well, surely the devil has some interest in the overall strategic plan of God for history, if only with an eye towards combating it (for further discussion of the passage, please see the link: "The Restoration Ministries").

Keeping you in prayer day by day, my friend – and thank you so much for your prayers too!

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.　

Question #14: 

Dear Bob,

I thank you very much for the rich blessing of your presence, sending prayers for ongoing strength, and ask does ICHTHYS has a commentary on these verses, or this passage:

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. - KJV

Seize the day, with love and blessings,

Response #14: 

The only thing I have on this is from BB 4A: "Christology" under the Life of Christ:

2) The Trial before Caiaphas (Matt.26:57-68; Mk.14:53-65): From comparing the accounts of John and Matthew, it seems likely that Annas' residence shared an inner courtyard with the official residence of the high priest. As in the first interrogation, this trial must have taken place on the portico of the residence, for Peter is able to observe its progress, and our Lord is able to see Peter immediately after his third denial (Lk.22:61). While the first trial seems to have been focused upon gathering intelligence in order to round up all of our Lord's followers, this second trial seems to have served a probouleutic function, having the purpose of concocting an appropriate charge for a death penalty at once acceptable to and persuasive for the Roman governor. None of the witnesses interviewed provided anything convincing, however, and it was only when our Lord affirmed His status as the Messiah under direct questioning that His accusers became satisfied that they had enough evidence to convict Him. In the process of this trial, Jesus was spit upon, slapped, beaten, blindfolded, and mocked.

If you are asking about the statement of our Lord, "sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven", this is a reference to His session and then to His second advent when "every eye shall see Him, even they who have pierced Him" (Rev.1:7; cf. Zech.12:10).

Do free feel to write back in case your underlying question has not been addressed.

Thanks so much for your kind words, my friend, and very much also for your prayers. They are greatly appreciated.

Your good friend in Jesus Christ our dear Lord,

Bob L.

Question #15: 

Dear Bob,

I thank you very much for "If you are asking about the statement of our Lord, ‘sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven’," but I actually was taken by the "I AM" capitalized in the Zondervan Amplified Bible, feeling this also as Jesus encouraging us to connect ALL:

• And Jesus said, I AM – MARK 14:62

• Before Abraham was, I Am - JOHN 8:58

• I Am hath sent me unto you. – EXODUS 3:14

Seize the day, with love and blessings,

Response #15:  

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I entirely agree. This statement is indeed another case of our Lord affirming His divinity. Please see the link: "The meaning of Jesus' words 'I AM' ".

Yours in the dear Lord who bought us and who will raise us up on that great day to come,

Bob L.

Question #16: 

Matthew 17:10 (NASB)
And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

Is the reference here to Malachi 4:5?

Response #16: 

Yes indeed! And it foreshadows the two witnesses of the Tribulation as does that passage:

Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, which I commanded him on Horeb (i.e., Sinai) concerning all Israel, [with both its] statutes and judgments – behold, I am about to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the Day of Lord, [that] great and awesome [Day], so that he may restore [to God] the hearts of the fathers along with [their] children and the hearts of the children along with their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with complete devastation.
Malachi 4:4-6

Question #17: 

Matthew 17:11-13 (NASB)
And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Does our Lord here only means John the Baptist, or is the applicability of this passage double, referring to both John the Baptist as His herald and to Elijah's ministry during the Tribulation?

Response #17:  

The reference here is primarily to John. However, John and Elijah are type/antitype, so that "is coming" refers to Elijah himself. On typology, see the links:

Old Testament Typology

Typology and Sequence in Old Testament Prophecy

Hermeneutics, Typology, Christophany, Theophany
and Anthropopathism

Question #18: 

Matthew 10:23 (NASB)
But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Note from the NIV SB:

This interpretation seems quite difficult to accept, I know you interpret the passage differently, by drawing the parallel between the 12 and the 144 000.

Response #18: 

Correct. Complete evangelism of the Jewish nation and the world will not take place until the Tribulation with the ministry of Moses and Elijah and the 144,000 addressing those of Jewish origin, and the worldwide heavenly proclamations of Revelation chapter fourteen:

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
Revelation 14:6 NASB

Question #19: 

Matthew 24:20 (NASB)
But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

What is the meaning of this verse? Why does Jesus say we should pray that the flight might not be on a Sabbath if it's no longer celebrated the way it was?

Response #19:  

The request is for "clear sailing" for the actual day of the escape, so that it is legitimate to request 1) no inclement weather (the true meaning of cheimon here), and 2) no religious restrictions on movement. As to the latter, it is true that we gentiles are not under the Law; however, the Tribulation will be a time of joint tenure between the ages of Israel and the Church, and those Jews in Israel who have responded to the revival ministry of Moses and Elijah will indeed be again participating in the temple rites to include observing the Sabbath. For that reason, namely, religious scruple, and also because even today in Israel many things are shut down on the Sabbath (which would make the flight both noticeable in a bad way as well as hindering it), this is a legitimate prayer.

Question #20: 

You wrote:

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 (NASB)
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

Since the passage says "the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night", could it not mean "for you yourselves know full well that we cannot know it"?

Response #20: 

I take your point, however, it seems to me that when Paul says directly that these believers have no need of any further information about "the times and seasons", and that the reason why have no need of more information is that they "know accurately that . . . ", that this way of speaking presupposes a detailed knowledge of the end times already possessed on their part. Part of that knowledge is indeed the fact that the precise moment of Christ's return is not known (i.e., no one knows "the day or the hour"), as is clear from other passages; my point is that this does not mean that approximate calculations of the end times are either impossible or being rejected by scripture: we can certainly know the month inasmuch as the scriptures give us in many places the information that the Great Tribulation will last exactly 42 months (or three and a half years) – and it certainly cannot be for no reason that we are told this repeatedly (see the link). I think Paul's way of setting up this comparison supports that too: Even though "the day" will come as a surprise to many, yet he expects the Thessalonians to be prepared for it, and part of that preparation is the knowledge Paul (and the rest of scripture) imparts about these matters (including the information that allows us to project approximate dates, even if not the precise "day or hour" of the second advent).

Response #23:  

The words are physically indistinguishable (a bigger deal in Hebrew than in English): they are spelled the same, pronounced the same, accented the same, and used in an identical way – or nearly so; plus, this passage and usage appears under the same entry as 'iysh in all my lexicons. I think it'd be a very hard argument to make that readers of Ezekiel wouldn't be thinking 'iysh when they saw and heard 'iysh. In any case, as I say, there's certainly not enough here, given all the evidence, to disqualify the devil as being referred to in the prophecy – which you seem to agree with in any case.

Besides, if 'iysh can be used for God (as we have seen) and is definitely used for Adam and his descendants (as it obviously is), denying that word can mean "person" generally and be applied to angels is a shaky proposition – and it is even less likely, given this evidence, that the word can be used to deny that someone referred to as an iysh therefore cannot be an angel.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #24: 

Hi Bob,

Of course the Devil is being referred into in Isaiah 14! That was never in dispute. However, what I sought to explain is the semantic import of ha'iysh when Satan is equivocated with that word. Because 'iysh always refers to a human, I think this means that the Devil himself may have an incarnation in flesh. This is theologically justifiable: Satan's position as an angel was when he was the morning star and thus the representation of God's relationship with believers. But after he rebelled, he became the avatar of evil. God letting him have an incarnation would make him the embodiment of evil and give a complete rebuttal to the demonic desire for flesh.

As for your grammatical points, the fact that it is spelled the same isn't always relevant. Consider the noun 'set' being used to describe a mathematical collection of things, and the noun 'set' being used to describe a move in volleyball. Same spelling, pronunciation, and accentuation, but yet two completely different words. Also the 'nearly so' is not negligible: /'iysh/ in Ezekiel is a quantifying pronoun, and thus doesn't carry much in the way of semantics. /'iysh/ in Isaiah is a noun, and thus has strong semantic meaning. /'iysh/ as a noun always refers to a human, unless a counterexample is found. I am willing to capitulate if such a counterexample exists, but the first example you brought up confirmed my point, and the second one you brought up (i.e. the one we're disputing now) isn't valid, because it's comparing apples to oranges. Both senses of the noun 'set' appear under the same word in the dictionary, but does that now mean they're the same word? Depending on the etymology of /'iysh/ in Ezekiel, they could be thinking of something else. As of writing, I do not buy that /'iysh/ in Ezekiel is being used as a synecdoche, so as to represent the individual agency of the angels.

Response #24: 

On the first point, I would have to see some additional scriptural basis to be willing to consider that theory (and so I will set aside my theological objections); in my view this verse – actually only one word – can't be used either to launch or to support such a theory, even it were only the devil who were being referred to here. That is all the more the case here since the passage refers also to a real human being (the historical king of Babylon was definitely an 'iysh) and to a half-and-half creature (antichrist).

As to the meaning of 'iysh, you do have a point about "man" being used generically at times (as in English "one"), but doesn't that demonstrate the flexibility of the word in Hebrew? The more the word can be used as an all-purpose term, the less likely it is that someone can be disqualified from a category based only on the occurrence of this word. Without going any deeper into the specifics of your counter-arguments, aren't you undermining your own position? To the extent that 'iysh doesn't really mean man/human being, to that extent it would have even less applicability to the thesis you put forward in the first paragraph.

The main point not to lose sight of here for me is that the passage has a triple application (to the king of Babylon, Satan and antichrist). How the details apply to each is a question of interpretation (which in my view is far from insoluble).

Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #25: 

Exactly, but this would only apply for 'iysh the noun, not 'iysh the pronoun. Again, I do not think that 'iysh the noun is being used as a synecdoche in Ezekiel, but 'iysh the pronoun is being used instead. If I saw 'iysh as a noun not referring to a human being, then I would rescind my thesis.

Response #25:  

I still think you have this backwards (if the word is not literally "man" here then the word cannot be used here to support an idea of an incarnate devil).

How about this passage?

Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male ('iysh) and its mate.
Genesis 7:2

Yours in Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #26: 

(1) The word is literally man in Isaiah 14 because it's a noun, not a pronoun.

(2) Interesting. Perhaps, then, the passage should be insinuating that

Satan is a male, not necessarily a man.

Response #26: 

Agreed.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

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