Annihilationism, Universalism, Hell and Judgment II

Question #1:

It would be helpful if you would read at Ichthys about the word "soul".  In the Bible, it is not a "tertium quid", that is, something with an independent existence.  It is merely a word which focuses on the inner "us", our "person". As I have often pointed out, this is a very unfortunate term for English translators of the Bible to have used over the years, because in English outside of the Bible the word "soul" does refer to something like a spirit – but that is not what the words in the Bible, psyche (Gr.) and nephesh (Heb.), mean at all (see the link). So the "soul" – in the Bible – is better translated "life" or "heart", and you will see that if you care to look into it that substituting one or the other as appropriate wherever the English word "soul" occurs in your translation will solve all these problems.

Two further questions for you:

1) Where in the Bible do you find the phraseology "with bodies that will still be destructible"? Not at Matthew 10:28 – there is no notion here of your scenario of "a resurrection following death followed by another death that results in annihilation of body and spirit".

2) If the "resurrected by (in your hypothesis) but still destructible" body is destroyed, what happens to the spirit? The spirit is never destroyed.

Question #10:

Dear Robert Luginbill: I asked a very good question. Can you please tell me your explanation of these 7 parts of scripture?

You wrote, "If you have an answer for Revelation 20:10 and/or Luke 16:23-24, I'd be happy to hear it."

Okay here you go – 7 parts if scripture that show an answer for Luke 16:23-24.

To me, these verses show that the dead are asleep or unconscious and are awaiting Judgement Day. They are not currently in heaven or hell. As such, Luke 16:19-31 is a parable and not a literal account. If you completely disagree, then tell me your explanation for these verses because I cannot but see these verses as saying anything else but that.

1) John 5:28,29
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

2) Second Peter 2:9
9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment ---- on the day of judgment.

3) John chapter 11: 11-14
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." 12 His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.14 So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

4) 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

5)1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

6) Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

7) Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Response #10:

This is not an answer; this is a return to your deductive arguments. I will give you a very brief reply to your seven passages (brief because I have already answered every one of them many times now over the years) – in the love of God and out of the love of God – but please understand that this is a last attempt to help you see the truth.

The two passages I gave you, Revelation 20:10 and Luke 16:23-24 stand on their own and are not in any way contradicted – or even addressed – by the passages you have listed here; the two each demonstrate categorically that there is no annihilation of the dead, not even a temporary sleep. Finally by way of introduction, Luke 16:23-24 is not a parable; it is a literal account because it gives names to the participants (see the link). If it were a parable, then Abraham would be a made-up person, not an actual patriarch (e.g.) for whom it would be most untoward to pretend he ever did/said something he actually never did/said. There is nothing in the passage that says it is a parable; there is nothing in the passage that suggest it is a parable. It is only called a parable by those who don't want to accept what it says. But even if it were a parable, you could not in good conscience ignore what it teaches, namely, that the dead are conscious and that the unsaved have eternal regrets because of eternal punishment: if that is not the message of this passage, what is?

1) Jn.5:28-29 teaches that the physical body comes forth in resurrection; before that, the spirit (in interim body) was in the presence of the Lord in heaven (for believers); or in torments (for unbelievers); Eccl.12:7.

2) 2Pet.2:9 teaches that the unrighteous have not been obliterated but are 'being held' . . . in torments awaiting the judgment.

3) Jn.11:11-14 teaches, as pointed out many times, that the bodies of the physically dead resemble those who are sleeping – from our earthly perspective (we can't see the departed in heaven or hell); and it is a good analogy too because just as those asleep do not sleep forever but wake up, so also those who are physically dead will have their first bodies rise in resurrection; those who put their faith in Christ to life eternal; those who refused to condemnation in the lake of fire, an eternity of pain without respite.

4) 1Cor.15:51-54 teaches that for some the resurrection will come while yet physically alive: those believers who survive to the end of Tribulation and are still alive when Christ returns at the second advent will be resurrected while alive without ever experiencing physical death.

5) 1Thess.4:13-18 teaches the same thing. The dead are 'asleep' from our human perspective; but "all live to Him" (Matt.22:32) – conscious in His presence (if believers):

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
Jn.8:56 NKJV

6) Eccl.9:5: Ecclesiastes expresses many things from the point of view of secular life; everything it says is true from the secular human perspective: there is no hope – without God. From our human-viewpoint vantage point the dead are gone and have nothing to do with the world anymore. But "Who knows if the human spirit rises upward? (Eccl.3:21)" Solomon did know (as is obvious from this book and all of his writings in scripture), but puts things this way to show the vanity of life, which is after all the theme of the book (cf. Eccl.1:2): all things are not vanity – spiritually; all things are vanity – without God.

7) Eccl.12:7: "the spirit returns to God" – my point exactly. As believers, our spirits are in His presence forever after the end of this life, indestructible from the point He created them when we were born. That last point is true of unbelievers too, so the only important question is the eternal future we (the real "we", our spirits) will have: a resurrection unto eternal life or unto the second death (torment in the lake of fire forever).

Revelation 2o:10 and Luke 16:23-24, along with all of the other evidence I have shared with you, are incompatible with your false view. The only way you can hold this view is to disrespect what the Bible actually says (n.b., Matt.10:28 does not say that the spirit will be destroyed or that there will be no resurrection after the first body "is destroyed" along with this earthly "life" / psych / ["soul"]). There will be eternal life for all who believe (and for all who have not rejected Christ and had no chance to believe); there will be eternal condemnation for all who reject Christ or refuse to accept Him. These are basic, biblical facts, obvious to anyone who reads scripture with any sort of intellectual honesty. Ignoring them can only be done at great spiritual peril.

I hope for better things for you. This is not about you or me or winning an argument. This is a matter of eternal life.

In Jesus Christ who died that we might live forever through faith in Him,

Bob L.

Question #11:

Dear Bob: Thanks for your email response.

I presented several examples...with bodies that will still be destructible":

2 Peter chapter 3:7-13
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and the destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat.13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

So if all things will be destroyed in this way (v.11); and that also includes the ungodly (verse 7), then how could any person survive that and be alive and conscious? This passage has been translated using words such as: pass away, disappear, vanish, destroyed, burned up, or dissolved, but never continually burning for all eternity. And even Dr. Grant Richison, a traditionalist, recognizes these verses as the final judgment. Here is what he wrote about 2 Peter 3:7.

Question #20:

Daniel said that unbelievers will explicitly be condemned to shame.

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2)

Also weeping and gnashing of teeth (that is, cringing) are both expressions of extreme shame. Jesus uses this hendiadys to express the same essential emotion: extreme shame.

Response #20:

People weep out of sorrow – unbelievers will be sorry . . . for themselves (cf. 2Cor.7:10 KJV: "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death"). People gnash their teeth out of pain, anger and frustration, not because they feel ashamed; people blush when they feel shame (cf. Jer.6:15; 8:12: "they do not even know how to blush").

As to your parallel in Daniel, it is not applicable. Believers and unbelievers both receive something in Daniel 12:2. Believers awake to (receive) eternal life (cf. Rom.2:7); unbelievers [awake] to "contempt and everlasting disgrace" (cf. Rom.2:8-9 contrasted with Rom.2:10); this is something they receive, the disapproval and disdain that comes from God and from all who belong to Him from the outside. So this verse describes their just deserts, not "how they feel" on the inside. That is obvious from the context since the two elements are visited upon them as opposed to flowing from them – a reaction which they should have but don't in the passages I adduced (Jer.6:15; 8:12; Zeph.3:5).

It's even more clear in the Hebrew, however. The word for feeling shame personally (as opposed to, e.g., being held in contempt by someone else) is bush/bosh (בּוּש); that is what we have in the three passages I gave you, and it is clear enough in context from any English version that these three are speaking of an internal emotion which ought to be felt. In Daniel, however, we are not talking about how these unbelievers will feel; rather, the two words he uses characterize their disgrace: cherpah (חֶרְפָּה) and dera'on (דְּרָאוֹן). These are synonyms meaning scorn and contempt (both objective, never subjective, meaning that they describe reproaches coming from without; cf. and 1Sam.17:6 for the former, and Is.66:24 for the latter).

The only way shame comes into the picture or one could think of using that word for either of the Hebrew words here is if it is understood that their conduct has been seen by others who count as "shameful". However, there is a difference between actually feeling ashamed and acting shamefully. "You ought to be ashamed of yourself!" – we would only react with shame and blushing if we valued the opinion and the authority of the person saying this to us, and, if guilty, would repent (or know that we should), but if innocent, we seek to defend ourselves. But, in the case of someone we despise with whose opinion we disagree, we would react not with blushing but with laughter or perhaps with anger . . . or perhaps with frustration and gnashing of teeth if we are going to suffer for it and can't do anything about it. But nothing anyone we despise can do to us can make us feel shame if we are not ashamed. Will these unbelievers be ashamed of themselves in the lake of fire? No. They have no respect for God the Father or Christ's sacrifice – that is why they will be there. Do they have any shame? No, they have no shame at all. They do not even know how to blush.

In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #21:

Hi Dr.

I have a quick question. I am reading CT 6 section 5 where you discussed the location of the lake of fire as being in subterranean realm of the present earth. How can this be if the present heavens and earth will be destroyed as it states in Rev. 21:1.

Thank you like always In Christ our Lord.

Response #21:

In terms of heavenly geography, there are three realms of existence: 1) the world/universe/kosmos; 2) the third heaven, and 3) the nether regions. The last two are not visible to human perception and are separated off from "this world" wherein at present we are in the middle of this conflict between the forces of the Lord and those of the devil – a conflict which of course is already won and whose purpose is really to decide the fate of all made with the image of God who have the right to choose their eternal future. At present, the third heaven is separated off for holiness' sake as the temporary abode of God (the "castle-keep", so to speak), while the nether regions still have unbelievers in Torments and fallen angels (some of them) in the Abyss. Once history and the judgments with which history is concluded are finished, there will be no further use for the nether regions (and probably also none for the third heaven) . . . except for the lake of fire which is also there below.

For our purposes of understanding from our human point of view, these nether regions – whether currently empty (as with paradise) presently occupied (as with Tartarus/Abyss and Torments), or awaiting the arrival of the condemned (the as yet unoccupied lake of fire) – are all described as being "below" the earth . . . just as the third heaven is described as being "above" it. With our scientific progress, we understand that this "above" and "below" are not spatial in the sense of our knowledge of the material universe. The universe is the world but we know for example that the third heaven is "not a part of this creation" (Heb.9:11), and the same is true of the nether regions. I.e., drilling a hole to the center of the earth is not going to discover these venues anymore than sending a probe to the furthest reaches of the universe would be able to discover the third heaven. So the destruction of the present "heavens and earth" is not going to affect the third heaven nor the nether regions.

Here is a link to a chart which represents the relative relationships of these areas the way the Bible describes them – understanding that this "geography" is given to us for purposes of a general understanding of the theological rather than strict spatial relationships, because "spatial" is in any case a "this creation/world only" concept: "Biblical Geography".

Feel free to write back about any of the above, my friend. I'm keeping you and your family in my prayers.

In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #22:

Thank you for the lucid response. I know understand. The current terrain of hell is not in this heaven and earth similarly to the 3rd heaven where God is residing. The pictures you provided helped very much.

I guess i was confused with the wording "subterranean". To me this word means below the natural earth's surface.

Thanks again for your continued prayers sir. In Christ our Lord

Response #22:

You're most welcome. It is somewhat confusing – to modern people who have grown up with a scientific template. The Bible, however, was written entirely to people who did not have that "world view", and the Bible has to be interpreted in light of the time and culture in which it was written – which sometimes makes parts of it difficult to explain to modern people. I appreciate your persistent desire to understand the truth, all of the truth. That is what it takes to "get there" personally and to be able to help others do so later on.

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #23:

Oddly, before I became a Christian, out of the fear of death and listening to my mother's advice to start looking for God I became somewhat of a "unitarian universalist" Christian. It didn't last long, though, and it took a few more years before I became a genuine believer, and will continue to do so, if God wills!

Response #23:

God certainly does so will! And I have no doubt that He has plans for you. For any Christian who is really willing to follow Christ and be used by the Lord, He will lead us to the right place and will knock all the rough edges off of us sooner or later . . . to the extent that we stay humble and willing to be changed by Him.

In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #24:

There are no "Degrees of Punishment" in Hell

And yet a third angel followed them, saying in a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark upon his forehead or upon his hand, he himself will also drink from the wine of God's wrath which has been mixed undiluted in the cup of His anger. And [that person] will be tortured/tormented in fire and sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb.
Revelation 14:9

Response #24:

Indeed – this sounds equally bad for the "anyone" which means "everyone" who ends up denying Christ.

Question #25:

What's the difference between hell and the lake of fire?

Response #25:

Unbelievers who die at present go to "torments" (Lk.16:23) – this is bad, but not as bad as the Lake of Fire – that is where unbelievers are cast after the last judgment at the end of history (see the link).

"Hell" is an English word which, depending on the version of English translation you are using, can refer to a number of different places. "Hell" often translates the Hebrew word sheol and also Gehenna in the Old Testament, and can refer to torments, the lake of fire, the Abyss, and also to paradise below the earth (where deceased believers resided before Christ's ascension).

For more on all this, please see the links:

"The Geography of Heaven and Hell"

"What does the Bible say about Heaven and Hell?"

Do feel free to write back with questions or for clarifications.

In our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #26:

What sections would you recommend to read regarding hell and the lake of fire?

Thank you,

Response #26:

Here are the best links for this:

Hades (in SR 1)

The Geography of Heaven, Hades and 'Hell'

The Lake of Fire

The Last Judgment of the Unbelieving Dead

Please do write me back if these links don't answer your specific questions.

In our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #27:

Will Christians be present as an audience at the "Great White Throne" judgment?

Response #27:

Yes – we will observe it all:

(9) And yet a third angel followed them, saying in a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives [his] mark upon his forehead or upon his hand, (10) he himself will also drink from the wine of God's wrath which has been mixed undiluted in the cup of His anger. And [that person] will be tormented in fire and sulfur before angels, [and] saints,(note 58) and before the Lamb. (11) And the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and his image and whoever takes the mark of his name." (12) [But] the saints have perseverance, [even] those who in this way (i.e., by refusing the mark and worship of the beast) keep God's commandments and [retain] their faith in Jesus. (13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on so that they may rest from their labors", says the Spirit. "For their deeds follow with them."
Revelation 14:9-13

(58) The absence of the definite article in the Greek text preceding the words "angels" and "holy [ones]" allows for the possibility that the adjective is being used here as a substantive, referring to resurrected believers. There is no reason for believers to be absent from this picture (cf. Rev.20:4), and the phrase "holy angels" is relatively rare in scripture, occurring only twice in the New Testament and in both instances in company with the definite article which is absent here (Mk.8:38; Lk.9:27; cf. Acts 10:22).

Please note that this passage is most often confused on this point in the versions (hence the need for the footnote). The "torment" refers to the depositing of each unbeliever into the lake of fire after judgment.

In our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #28:

Greetings in Christ name,

Thank you for including my email address for the announcements of your additions to your Website. I look forward to your in depth analysis of difficult subjects in the Bible.

My question today is have you ever studied the Intermediate State? Recently in a sermon by Dr. David Jeremiah he said that before the Rapture believers in Jesus will not go to heaven but instead they will go to an intermediate state. I sometimes wonder if Roman Catholics conceived of purgatory because of this concept.

Can you give us your opinion on this subject?

Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a very blessed New Year!

Response #28:

You are more than welcome, my friend! Please keep Ichthys in mind if you change email addresses so I can update my list.

As to your question, from your description of the terminology, it's not precisely clear what this person means by "intermediate state". That is not a biblical term (i.e., it doesn't occur in scripture), nor is it a classical theological term, nor a standard evangelical term. That being the case, I need to put in a caveat about my comments here. I'm not familiar with this individual or this teaching, so I can only respond to what is apparent (and what little I was able to glean from the internet about him).

First, the truth is that after death all believers (since Christ's ascension) are taken to the third heaven, receiving what, for lack of a better term, I call an "interim body". The human spirit was created within the newly born human being at birth (Zech.12:1b; see the link), and is never ever "disembodied" from that time forward to the end of time and into eternity. That is true of unbelievers too, as is apparent from our Lord's relating of the story of Lazarus and the rich man – this passage is one of the clearest representations of the actual state of affairs. Important to note is that this is not a "parable" (please see the link), but a true rendition of an actual series of events. After death, both Lazarus and Abraham, believers in paradise (n.b., all these were transferred to heaven at our Lord's ascension; see the link), are recognizable as who they are and assume postures and do things and discuss doing things which only people with bodies can do. Granted, the interim body is not as terrific as the resurrection body will be, but there is apparently no pain or discomfort of any kind (for believers) – so for us it is something to be very much looked forward to rather than what one might think from the perspective of any false doctrine of disembodiment (cf. Phil.1:23). You can find a full description of this issue at the following links:

Biblical Anthropology III: Soul versus Spirit, "Soul Sleep", and the Interim Body

The Interim Body

Our Heavenly, Pre-Resurrection, Interim State

What I find disturbing about the individual and teaching referenced is that these do seem to suggest – absolutely erroneously – that after death we are disembodied spirits and have to wait for the resurrection to be "clothed". But in fact 2nd Corinthians 5:1-3, rightly read in the Greek (there is a textual problem here; see the link), tells us that we will not be "naked" even if we die before the resurrection (treated in the links above). That is also clearly to be seen from the story of Lazarus as well as from the descriptions of the deceased martyrs in Revelation chapters six and seven who, to the point, are given clothing (Rev.6:11; cf. Rev.7:9). These are not disembodied spirits. In fact, such a thing is impossible, although in this world people do believe in ghosts and all manner of non-existent things. Some people believe in non-existence or annihilation after death too, but we believers know from scripture that once a life is created, that is, once a person is born and a spirit created within that body, said person will never go out of existence – they may end in the lake of fire by their own choice, but they will never cease to exist. Likewise, the spirit once placed into a body will never lack a "home" or "clothing" again: the spirit is meant to be clothed, not unclothed, and this is always the case.

The problems with assuming some other sort of "intermediate state" which is contrary to scripture are manifold. For one thing, this is not far removed from the dangerous and spiritually depressing false doctrine of "soul sleep" (because, if a spirit can be disembodied, why cannot it be put to sleep?; see the link). For another, this is a very spiritually depressing idea on its own and may lead to many other false impressions about what happens after death – it makes it all seem surreal and not particularly to be desired compared to the here and now while we actually have a body, and so may lead to a propensity to want to cling to this life and fail to understand that everything about what is in store for us is so much better (1Cor.2:9). Such false teachings make it difficult to look forward to being with the Lord (the very thing we should all be cultivating day by day). Also, this sort of false teaching gives credence to all other manner of false doctrines such as purgatory, as you noted (see the link), and the idea of ghosts wandering around here or there. Moreover, whenever any false doctrine is accepted, it always undermines the whole of the spiritual edifice every believers should be intent on building up in his/her heart and spirit as the primary service to the Lord without which nothing else effective can be done. Without spiritual growth through hearing and believing the truth, believers are very vulnerable to all manner of satanic attacks, and whatever production they may engage in will be at least drastically curtailed in its effectiveness . . . if not completely undermined.

So I commend you on your keen sense of sniffing out false doctrine. This sort of "spiritual I.Q." is also something that grows as we grow in the truth, and it has never been more important than it is today on the cusp of the Tribulation where even now before the fact we see the seeds of the "empowerment of evil" being sown.

Wishing a very merry Christmas and blessed 2017 to you and yours as well!

In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #29:

I will come back to what I meant. Maybe if I start with a verse from Matthew 10:37.

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me"

Your view is that while someone is alive if they truly repent they can still be forgiven, correct? So when Jesus says such a person is not worthy he can't be referring to the unworthiness of the believer, as we are all unworthy, the disciples were unworthy. He must be referring to a specific type of unworthiness. What other type is there left except unworthy of being his in the sense of having salvation?

I know Luke 14:26 states

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be My disciple."

However verse 21 of Matt 10 Jesus says

21 "Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved

Jesus links put him first with salvation, it is an assumption to say there is no link

Scenario: Say a person refused to repent while their parents were alive because the cost would be too high and worried over the effect it might have on his/her parents, going to jail for example, something very serious like murder. And plans to wait until after their parents are dead to repent. Such a person is putting them before the Lord and so wouldn't be excepted if they repented afterwards

Is this not the kind of thing the Matthew 10:37 is saying?

Thanks,

Response #29:

Let me start by saying that there is a vast difference between logic and theology. Not that theology is illogical (it most certainly is not), but it is true that making logical arguments based upon assumptions which are not directly stated in the Bible is one of the quickest ways to run afoul of the truth. I.e., "A" means "X" and "B" means "Y" so we may conclude "Z" – doesn't work when neither X nor Y nor Z are actually in the Bible. This is akin to counting angels dancing on pinheads, and it is the basis of much wrong-headed medieval Roman Catholic "theology". This procedure is also usually unnecessary since if the question is truly an important one, there is almost always a specific scripture (usually, many scriptures) which teach about that question positively and directly – or at least parts of it. Good theology, that is to say, is much more "data dependent", than being hypothetical and based upon logical extrapolations from assumptions which may or may not be entirely true.

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."
Matthew 11:28 NASB

Hundreds of such scriptures like this one come to mind. And none of them contain qualifications about God's mercy such us "unless you've already blown your chance" or "unless . . . [anything at all]".

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Matthew 3:2 NASB

Note, not "if you still have that option". Scripture is replete with similar commands for wayward (believer or unbeliever) to change their thinking and turn to God. How would this be the case if it were impossible for people to respond to such commands? Why would God appeal to the free will of people who no longer have it (or never had it)?

The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Revelation 9:20-21 NASB

These tribulational unbelievers "did not repent" in spite of all they had seen. If you think about it carefully, this would be a nonsensical thing to say if they it would have made no difference to God if they did repent. That is because their lack of repentance is what is being found fault with here even more than the dastardly deeds from which they refuse to repent.

In short, wherever one looks in scripture, there are innumerable instances where the free will of all mankind is appealed to in various ways. What is the purpose of that if there is no free will . . . at least functionally so in the case of certain people who have done certain things and are now somehow "beyond the pale"?

If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
Jeremiah 18:7-8 NIV

Here we have a case of evil sufficient to warrant complete national annihilation at the hand of God. But even so, repentance brings forgiveness.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1st John 1:9 NIV

This seems straightforward to me; and so straightforward that no assumed conditions can be interpreted into this verse without standing it on its head – especially when no such thing occurs in scripture.

This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him.
2nd Corinthians 2:6-8 NKJV

Paul's handing over of the incestuous man to Satan "for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1Cor.5:5 NKJV) is here reversed following requisite repentance on said individual's part. If that can be forgiven . . .

And [so the prodigal son] got up and returned to his father. But while he was still some distance away, his father caught site of him and was filled with compassion. And he ran toward him and fell upon his neck and kissed him. And his son said to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired servants." But his father said to his servants, "Quick! Bring a fine suit of clothes and put it on him, and put a signet ring on his hand and shoes on his feet. And bring the fatted calf. Butcher it so that we may eat and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and has [now] come back to life. He was lost, but he has been found." And they began to celebrate.
Luke 15:20-24

That is how our heavenly Father comports Himself to us who are His children in Jesus Christ. There are numerous cases of great believers sinning in spectacular ways (Moses, David, Elijah, Peter). But none of them ends up being ultimately forsaken by the Lord; rather, in every case where there is repentance there is forgiveness.

So in terms of what the Bible actually says, people do repent; and God does forgive . . . in every such case. I don't see that Matthew 10:37 says otherwise. Where there is life, there is hope – depending upon what the individual still alive decides.

Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
Ecclesiastes 9:4 NIV

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #30:

Good reply, thanks. So Matthew 10:37 - how do you interpret it?

Thanks,

Response #30:

You're very welcome.

What do I make of Matthew 10:37? What would anyone make of it? Our Lord was very direct with the truth, and direct in an (obviously) brilliant way. I think anyone hearing these words when He said them would have one of two reactions – just as we do today: Either 1) "I don't believe this and so I'm not going to worry about it" (variations on this theme, of course, but disregarding / rejecting the pointed remark is the idea); or 2) "Wow, I really fall short!". I suppose there are some people who might actually think, "I'm OK on this one, alright", but anyone with that degree of confidence that they're doing the right thing to the extent of actually loving the Lord more than anything or anyone else in the world, even his/her nearest and dearest, is probably not being totally honest with themselves. So as far as I am concerned this verse is designed both to draw the clearest possible distinction between those who are following Christ and those who are not, and to motivate those who are following Him but not doing so as well or as close as they could (that would be all of us, in my humble opinion), to shake off our lukewarmness and fire ourselves back up again (daily) to keep Him and His truth the absolute first priority in our lives.

The context here, starting with the conclusion of our Lord's directive in the comparison to the lilies of the field and the birds of the air that we are "not to worry" because God has everything under control and is certainly aware of and will certainly provide for all of our needs, is our Lord's version of what I have deemed the "Day of the Lord paradigm" (see the link). That is to say, these verses all look forward to times of testing and tribulation and in part to the Tribulation itself (specifically vv.35-36), wherein believers will suffer for their faith and will endure persecution even from those who are near and dear. Under such extreme pressure, the love of most will grow cold (Matt.24:12), and many will fall prey to the Great Apostasy during the Tribulation – and even before then such experience of persecution can result in apostasy when the plant sprouting on the rock with no deep roots withers in the heat of opposition (Matt.13:20-21; Mk.4:16-18; Lk.8:13).

All the remarks of our Lord in this context are thus words of loving concern from our Shepherd who wants us all to love Him for our own good – for our spiritual growth, progress, production and resultant reward – but also for our spiritual safety. Because if we do not love Him most of all and more than all, we are danger of falling out of love with Him entirely and losing our faith. And if we abandon our faith in Him, then we are no longer believers, and "then end is worse than the beginning" (2Pet.2:20).

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:15-16 NIV

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #31:

Does that back up my original interpretation that the person in the scenario, a person who waited until their parents to accept Jesus because they didn't want to risk separation from them, as following him would mean going to prison, so waited until they were dead to repent, and would do the same thing again, wait until they were dead that is? Which would bring into question the sincerity of their repentance anyway. So doing what the verse Matthew 10:37 would put them into that situation, that is insincere repentance. So this is talking about salvation right? They who put others before him are not going to be worthy of him since they will end up losing their salvation.

Response #31:

That's a bit too convoluted of a hypothetical for me to weigh in on. What I can say is that all believers are saved; unbelievers are not. Unbelievers may go through the motions of being "Christian" and in some religions which pretend to be Christian may do all manner of works "of repentance". But salvation comes from accepting Christ as Savior – "by grace through faith" (Eph.2:8-9). The only way a person can lose salvation is by losing faith completely to the point where it has died out and the person has reverted to being an unbeliever, someone who no longer believes in or in any way cares for Jesus Christ. That is what apostasy is. There have been plenty of believers in history who have had weak faith and who have behaved in all manner of scurrilous ways. In extreme cases, the Lord removes such from the world via the very painful "sin unto death" (as in the case of the incestuous young man in 1st Corinthians 5:1ff. – although he did repent under that pressure). Sin is not an issue in salvation since Christ died for all sin. What sin can do, however, is to sour our relationship with the Lord, and result in discipline from Him (Heb.12:1ff.), and then harden our hearts against any godly fear for the Lord if we refuse to accept that discipline in the right way (Heb.3:7 - 4:11). For some Christians when they experience such pressure do not repent but turn away from the Lord instead. Should they do that to the extreme degree of losing their faith entirely (actually abandoning it), then they revert to being unbelievers in apostasy. This is all explained in detail at the link in BB 3B: "Apostasy and the Sin unto Death".

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #32:

Hi Bob,

Annihilationism is popular not because unbelievers ask "isn't Hell mean," but to comfort lukewarm Christians by not reminding them that the consequences are severe.

Sincerely,

Response #32:

It's also "popular", both in the present day and historically, among unbelievers – as a way of anesthetizing them against the (otherwise very reasonable) fear of death, judgment and damnation. But these three things are meant as motivation to turn to God in repentance so as to be saved by accepting His solution: the Gift of Jesus Christ.

In Jesus our dear Lord through whose work on the cross we have life eternal.

Bob L.

Question #33:

Hello Dr Luginbill, I pray you are doing well.

I was wondering:

1) How are the Heavens different from Paradise?

2) Will all those in Hades be transferred over to hell after judgment and if so, why is there a delay between punishment to Judgement? Examples being the rich man in the Lazarus story and the fallen Angels kept in chains and darkness until Judgement.

3) Why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise, I was under the impression that after the sacrifice, all believers would be transferred to Heaven?

Thanks as always

Response #33:

Hello Friend,　

Good to hear from you as always – and thanks for your prayers!

As to your questions:

1) There are three heavens (see the link): the atmosphere, the universe beyond, and the "third heaven", the present abode of the Father and the Son and all departed believers (since the ascension; see the link). "Paradise" is a Persian word meaning "pleasure garden", and is used biblically for the place where God communes with those who belong to Him. This "spot" has varied over time because of the angelic rebellion and the subsequent progress of the plan of God. Paradise originally was earth; then it was specifically Eden after the post-judgment reconstruction of earth to make it habitable for mankind; then it was "Abraham's bosom", a compartment of the underworld (as in Lazarus and the rich man); then, following our Lord's ascension, it has been the third heaven; ultimately, it will be the New Jerusalem (see the link: "The Seven Edens").

2) We are all born with sin natures and worthy of condemnation, but in His great mercy the Lord allows us to live on this earth for a span of time, even if we refuse to use that great opportunity to seek Him and accept the gospel so as to be saved. God has no desire that any should perish but that all should be saved (2Pet.3:9). Hades refers of course to the entire underworld (see the link: "The Geography of Heaven, Hades and 'Hell'"). But, yes, all unbelievers and all fallen angels (with the exception of antichrist and the false prophet and Satan who are all peremptorily deposited into the lake of fire) receive their "last judgment" at the same time, namely, at the end of history and just before the commencement of eternity, that is, following the resurrection and evaluation of the sheep of Matthew 25 (the "friends of the bride" believers of the Millennium), and preceding the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth, and the subsequent descent of New Jerusalem (see the link: "The Last Judgment"). So all who defied God will be judged, but not until this period called "history" (the time of the Plan of God) has run its course. So God graciously does not execute final judgment until the very last minute – and a necessary thing too for the final state of those who love Him to be in a new universe "where only righteousness dwells" (2Pet.3:13).

3) Our Lord descended into the subterranean paradise after He gave up His spirit following His fulfillment of His atonement for the sins of the world by His spiritual death (see the link). And He did not rise from there until Sunday morning – so the statement is literally true in every way (the repentant thief having followed Him down shortly after He exhaled His spirit). Also, none of the believers in Abraham's bosom were taken to the third heaven until the ascension of Christ, and that did not happen until some forty days after the resurrection (Acts 1:3; see the link: "The Transfer of Believers from the Subterranean Paradise to the Third Heaven"). So the thief was "with Me" and he was there for some short space of time after our Lord rose.

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #34:

Do you believe unbelievers will burn forever or their souls die in hell?

Response #34:

The Bible teaches that all human beings will be resurrected. Believers "unto life" to live in the presence of the Lord in New Jerusalem forever; unbelievers "unto death" to spend eternity in the lake of fire. Scripture is very clear on this point. Please see the link: "Annihilationism, Universalism, Hell and Judgment".

But if you believe in Jesus Christ, this will not happen to you! So keep believing, no matter what!

In Jesus Christ by whose blood (spiritual death on the cross) we are saved.

Bob L.

Question #35:

So their soul will be destroyed.

Response #35:

Not at all. Have a look at the link I sent you. Once the Lord creates a spirit, it is never destroyed. Physical bodies are destroyed, but all human beings who have departed this life are presently conscious (unbelievers in Torments; believers in the third heaven; both having their spirits housed in temporary "tents" or interim bodies), and all will be resurrected before eternity begins. Unbelievers will be cast, body and spirit, into the lake of fire, and that is where they will reside in torment for all eternity – as they wish. Of course they don't want the torment, but they also prove with their lives that they don't want any part of God. The problem with that is that on the one hand all blessing comes from God, and on the other hand no one can live with Him forever who has demonstrated that they are unwilling to do so if given a truly free choice (that is the whole point of this life and the gift to us of the image of God). So unbelievers will exist in separation from the presence of God forever in a place without blessing and only cursing because God will not be there, but believers will live in the presence of the Lord forever and know only blessing because "the first things [will] have passed away" on that wonderful day to come.

Importantly, the word "soul" is a confusing term. It is a Germanic word, and not a Bible word. In most version where the word is found it translates the Greek word psyche or the Hebrew word nephesh, and both of these words mean "life" or "person" – in other words, "soul" (biblically speaking – I'm not saying how people use it in conversation) is not referring to some "third thing" which has a separate existence apart from the spirit and the body. Also, God made us whole persons and so will we ever be; there is no such thing as a "disembodied spirit" . . . in the Bible. Here is a good link for that: "Soul".

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #36:

Based on Matthew 10:28, I don't know . . .

Response #36:

We all fall short in many ways (Jas.3:2). There are many verses in scripture which, rightly considered, will make us realize just how true it is that we are sinners in desperate need of God's grace. But He is merciful . . . and Jesus has already died for all of our sins. That does not mean that we should continue to sin. God forbid (Rom.6:15)! It does mean that if we are indeed fighting the fight and walking the path to Zion following our Lord we are in fellowship with Him in the light, "and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin" (1Jn.1:7).

Matthew 10:28 has to do with our fundamental choice in this life. Do we choose the Lord, to follow Him and love Him more than the world? Or do we turn away from the Lord and unto the world? It is true that being born again and being ultimately saved requires us to do more than merely believe at one moment in time – it requires continuing our faith in Christ until the end. And if we are following Him, picking up our cross daily to walk how and where He would have us to walk, that faithfulness on our part is a demonstration of the faith we have deep inside and are determined to preserve.

Therefore if we are thinking about this world and our very temporary lives in it correctly, we will not be worrying about people who may have the power to kill us (as in the Tribulation; Matt.10:16-27 which precedes Matt.10:28), and we will not be worried about possessing the essentials necessary to preserve our lives in this world (Lk.12:22-31 which follows Lk.12:5), rather we will fear – with godly reverence rather due our Father rather than godless and ignorant terror – the One who is all-powerful in every way. Unbelievers would do well to take that lesson too. Because the life they so prize and strive to protect is going to come to an end by the will of God – He has the power to take it away no matter what they do and will do so in every case (no one lives in this corrupt world forever); and He has the power to cast them into hell, which very thing He will do if they continue in their hard-hearted rejection of His Gift, the Son He gave to die for them whom they refuse to accept. That is the meaning of Matthew 10:28, namely, not "annihilation" which some unbelievers in the history of the world have found comforting, but the promise of loss of this life and after death a "second death", an eternal existence in the lake of fire so horrible it is termed death instead of life.

But blessedly "we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way" (Heb.6:9).

But as it is written: "What the eye has not seen and the ear has not heard, and [what] has not entered the heart of man, [these are the very] things which God has prepared for those who love Him".
1st Corinthians 2:9

In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.

Question #37:

Excuse me but one big thing which I don't agree with you its about hell. I believe in death souls in hell. (Second death) I read your articles about this but I have other view. It's sad that bible don't give us directly views about this things: second death (no eternal punishment), believers can fall away (and come back),

I'm sad that there are lots of ministries and organizations which have false doctrines. Of course I don't mean you.

Response #37:

You are free to believe whatever you wish. However, only the truth can be of any benefit to you, and only if you believe it. The Bible does give us the truth, directly enough. But it also often leaves enough leeway so that people who want to convince themselves that the truth is not the truth may be able to do so. We are here to choose, and part of that choice for believers is whether or not to accept God's Word for things – and whether or not to do things God's way (i.e., growing spiritually under the authority of a good teaching ministry) or to do things our own way instead. On this point, I think you need to consider these verses (it would be impossible to see, weep and gnash teeth if a person were non-existent):

But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 8:12 NIV

They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:42 NIV

This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:49-50 NIV

"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 22:13 NIV

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:51 NIV

And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 25:30 NIV

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Matthew 25:41-46 NIV

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
Luke 13:28 NIV

But as for the cowardly and unbelieving and foul and murderers and the sexually immoral and those involved in the occult and idolaters and all those who are liars (i.e., all who for a variety of reasons rejected Christ) – their portion (i.e., "inheritance") will be in the lake burning with fire and sulfur which is the Second Death.
Revelation 21:8

All of these verses make it very clear that punishment is eternal (it says so verbatim in Matt.25:46) and that there is no oblivion or "soul death". Just as a person can die once and still be conscious (in Torments; Lk.16:22ff.); so all unbelievers will die a second time . . . but still be conscious (in the Lake of fire) – the death of anyone does not mean oblivion (it only seems that way to the unbelieving world). Do you know of a single Bible verse that even suggests that a spirit (n.b. not "soul" as I have explained before; see the link) once created is ever destroyed? There are none. So you are free to believe your theory or the truth.

As to falling away and coming back, I'm not sure what your question/objection is here (happy to discuss it). The main point to remember there is that all who believe are saved (regardless of what did or didn't happen) and all who do not believe are not saved (likewise regardless of what did or didn't happen) – so this is an academic argument for people to have perhaps, but it's easy enough for a person to confirm if they're saved or not. Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18 NKJV

Finally, on multiple ministries, that is not an excuse for you not to choose: the fact that God has given you many possible choices, some good, some bad, some in-between, is not a bad thing. God could have made you without free will. Giving you no choices would be the same thing essentially. You have more than enough information to make a good and an informed choice about whom to believe – and in your heart you know that. Time is wasting. The end of all things is at hand. I urge you to find a good teaching ministry and begin to grow (which will never happen as long as you continue to torture yourself with multiple ministries which have discordant messages). Listen to the Spirit; He will guide you to a good one . . . if that is what you really desire and if you are willing to listen (I also highly recommend "Bible Academy" [at the link]).

Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.

Question #38:

Annihilation. In this week email, I was wondering when you were going to mention Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus. You did mention it towards the end of the discourse and he never had an answer for it. I believe those verses by our Lord states unequivocally about everlasting torment for one who wants to believe it. I would have start with that premise rather than soul vs spirit, etc but I get what you were trying to do. This is a teaching ministry and you really wanted to teach him about the difference between the two and the consistency in God's word. Sometimes, I feel that the arguments back and forth is mostly to be argumentative from their end and not true learning.

Anyone who believes in annihilation in my book is an unbeliever especially after numerous biblical proofs to the contrary. This is another way of saying "God get out of my life and don't tell me what to do with it. I don't need you." Basically, they feel there is no accountability to a righteous God.

I sometimes wish some of these arguments could be cut short. I try not to gloss over it and read all of it because there are some things you mention that are great points but some of these arguments to me are not edifying. How should someone in my position approach your readings when they are back and forth? Need your thoughts and guidance.

Response #39:

These types of discussions are not everyone's cup of tea. If they are not edifying for you, then you are certainly free to pass over them without any qualms of conscience. I think the fact it occurred to you how this all might have been better handled is an indication of your own growing fluency with the Word of God and also coming ever closer to entering into some sort of direct ministry yourself. Good for you! One side note. Persons of this persuasion often discount the Luke passage on the grounds that it is "a parable", and thus – for some odd reason I can never quite figure out – feel that they can dismiss everything it demonstrates with which they disagree. Rather than get into the weeds on that issue immediately, I opted for the tack I took in this discussion.

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