Question #1:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
I am sending some remarks made by one of the persons who sit in the
Bible Study that I lead. This is the same person that believes in
"Eternal Security" that I wrote about some months ago. Here are his
comments:
The view that I have regarding Genesis 1 is that this chapter is all
about “creation” for the context demand that this is creation without
preexisting materials, that is, out of nothing. Genesis 1:1 says, “In
the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” The heavens and
the earth, indicate all of God’s creation incorporated into this summary
statement that includes all six (6) consecutive days of creation.
Genesis 1:2 “The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over
the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face
of the waters.” The earth was without form and void for it was not
finished in its shape and not inhabited by creatures. In the period of
six consecutive days, God spoke and beautify His creation. Genesis 1:31
“And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.
And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.” Also in
Chapter 2:1-2 1“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all
the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he
had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had
done.” Chapter 2:1, are words of affirmation that for six days, God had
completed his work, thus He rested on the seventh day. Genesis 1:2b,”and
darkness was over the face of the deep.” The deep, describe the waters
that covers the surface of the earth before the dry land appear. Genesis
1:9-10 God said, 9“Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together
into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10God
called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he
called Seas. And God saw that it was good.” Genesis 1:26-31 is the
creation of man on the sixth day. The highest point of creation is a
living human, made in the image of God to rule creation. The command to
rule separate man from the rest of living creation and defined his
relationship as above the rest of creation being God’s representative in
ruling over it. God created both male and female (cf. Matthew 19:4) that
equally shared the image of God, and both had dominion over creation
(cf. Psalm 8:6). Physically they were divinely designed in order for
them to accomplish God’s mandate to multiply, that is, neither one could
reproduce offspring without the other.
I had sent each of the individuals your study on the "Image and
Likeness" of God. I have one person and maybe two who agree with this
teaching. Not sure about the others. In his reply, it seems to me that
he is unwilling to give credence to any other teaching but continues to
refute anything contrary to his opinion, which I do not believe is an
interpretation. Again, he probably never considered all the scripture
verses supplied in the teaching, even though they solidify it. Some
people are bound and determined to believe what they were previously
taught, and he comes from an Evangelical background whatever that is? He
never addressed the second comment I sent with more than ample scripture
support on the subject of Angels cohabiting with women. Probably way
over his understanding. I have already replied to this individual once
before, and so that is sufficient. He appears to be absolute that he is
right in what he believes. What amazes me is that he was a former Roman
Catholic along with his wife.
I think it is time for me to bow out of being the teacher of this group?
There is as I stated, one person who absolutely agrees with your
teaching. Any suggestions you may have would be appreciated. Always
thankful for your great help, for as you well know, this is not an easy
assignment. But what are the options when someone does not believe what
is written in the scriptures?
I praise God for the day that He directed me to your Website, and I give
Him all the glory and praise for it. I am also so thankful to have
discovered your website, that has taught me so much, even though I don't
have a knowledge of Hebrew and Greek. May our LORD and Savior Jesus
Christ, overwhelm you with His grace and you continue working for Him to
spread the truth.
Your friend,
Response #1:
This person writes, "The heavens and the earth, indicate all of God’s
creation incorporated into this summary statement that includes
all six (6) consecutive days of creation." (emphasis added).
Of course, Genesis 1:1 is NOT a "summary statement". Summaries generally
follow, and in any case this is the only place it says that God created
the universe in the context; His remaking of it later is described
differently.
This sort of approach ignores the grammar of verse two, which, in Hebrew
says, "but the earth (NOT the heavens) became
/ came to be ruined and despoiled". God does not make
anything imperfect in the first place – and certainly not something
"ruined and despoiled". These are only a few points that make this
person's (very typically) false view impossible on the initial face of
it.
More at the link.
As to continuing, not continuing, if we wait for a group where there is
100% response, we'll never do anything. Just ask Moses, or Elijah – or
our Lord. On the other hand, if we are doing some good for the Lord and
for His kingdom, sharing the truth with some people who are benefitting
a little or a lot, that is blessed. If there is a more fertile field to
attend to, that's one thing. But if this is the field we've been given,
well, it's the Lord who assigns these particular ministries; the Father,
not us, provides the response and the results according to His lights
(1Cor.12:4-6).
No doubt the evil one is happy to have any teacher who is really
teaching the Word quit. And no doubt he does what he can to provide
enough frustration to bring that about. Elijah ran away; so did Jonah.
Moses lost his temper. There's always justification to quit, it seems –
although some times quitting is justified. I can tell you that Ichthys
has seen better days in terms of poor response on the one hand and
outright opposition on the other. But I've determined to stick with this
all the way to the end – unless the Lord leads me to something else or
is telling me that enough is enough. That's something we each have to
decide for ourselves. But even though it's not biblical, this piece of
advice has proven its worth over the years for me: "Never quit on a bad
day."
Your friend in Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #2:
Bob, it is so good to hear from you! I read some of your work almost
daily. Since our last email I've had quite a spiritual fight on my
hands. I feel like the evil one attacks me daily especially the day
after I witness to a friend or coworker.
I have been wanting to write you to ask a question but I guess I'm a
little embarrassed because I think I know your opinion based on your
writings. Since the opportunity seems to have presented itself I'll ask
anyway.
It is with great respect I ask this question as your prior
correspondences with me helped me so. I believe the Holy Spirit placed
another friend into my life that has invited me into a small men's Bible
study in Thursday evenings. I've gone three times. The main teacher
believes strongly in dispensation doctrine. I must admit reading the
Bible prior to learning this perspective I could not understand it very
well and in my mind it seemed there were contradictory statements
throughout. I tried very hard to understand and wrote myself off as
unable to understand at the time.
After learning about the concept of dispensation and reading the new
testament with that lens all my perceived contradictions seemed to go
away. This man had helped to found a Baptist church in St. Louis and,
after many years, left that church because they wouldn't accept this
doctrine.
I've studied dispensation enough to know that it seems most Bible
teachers teach that we live in a dispensation of Grace right now (but
now) even though I've never heard anyone else speak of it by name.
My question to you, if you would, is do you have a thought you would
share on this idea? One of the big points I've taken is that Hebrews
through Revelations is written for future people after the Church has
been raptured. Also they believe you cannot lose your salvation once you
are truly saved. Moreover you can shipwreck your faith and God may take
you out of the world but you cannot be lost.
I do think by your writing you would disagree with the last statement
having read your book on Peripateology on trials and tribulation. Am I
wrong that once saved a person can lose their faith during a trial and
be lost?
I hope this email finds you well and I so look forward to reading your
next work.
Wow. I've been reading your new work. It's late and I'm going to bed but
it just amazes me that you're writing about the very thing I had
questions about. I just had to let you know. We serve an amazing God!
Many blessings,
Your brother in Christ our Savior,
Response #2:
It's good to hear from you as well, my friend. Although I have some concerns
about what you've written me here: "Hebrews through Revelations [sic] is
written for future people after the Church has been raptured".
1) Hebrews is only in the physical place where it is in the New Testament
because of tradition. In the oldest manuscript we have it is placed after 2nd
Thessalonians. There are other occasional differences in the placement of the
books. So while the NT is all "the Bible", drawing any substantive conclusions
from the order of the books would be incorrect to do.
2) There is no "rapture" before the Tribulation. There is only one return of
Christ in the New Testament, the one at the second advent. That is when the
Church is resurrected, e.g.:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV
Pretty clear. See the link which will lead to others:
"The Rapture and other
Eschatological Issues".
3) On "you cannot lose your salvation once you are truly saved":
It is through this gospel that you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you – otherwise you believed in vain.
1st Corinthians 15:2
For if after having escaped the defilements of this world by recognizing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ they should be overcome [spiritually] by becoming involved again in these foul things, then they have become worse off than they were before. For it would have been better for them not to have accepted the Righteous Way in the first place, rather than – once having accepted this holy command [for faith in Christ] committed to them – to turn their backs on it now. And so in their case this proverb is true: "The dog has returned to his vomit, and the sow, though washed, to her muddy sty".
2nd Peter 2:20-22
Pretty clear. As John 3:18 and many other passages of scripture state
explicitly, only believers are saved. Since it is possible to cease to believe
in Christ, it is possible to apostatize as our Lord also said (Lk.8:13: they
believe only "for a while" and then fall away).
4) Dispensations: this is a very often misunderstood concept in scripture and
unfortunately there is such a thing as "hyper-dispensationalism" which, from
your email, it seems you are being proselytized into. True "dispensations" have
to do with the way in which God "dispenses" His truth in different eras of
history – that is the core meaning of the key Greek root oikonom-. Simply
put, there are indeed differences between being under the Law and being under
grace, but the entire Bible applies in one way or another at all times (cf.
Rom.15:4; 1Tim.1:8). Some incorrect schools want to put us under the Law; others
want to disregard the OT and parts of the NT entirely (as your group seems to
do); the middle course is the correct one. For more info on this see the link:
"Dispensations, Covenants, Israel and the Church I".
5) The Spirit: I would agree that the Lord no doubt has allowed these things to
happen, but doubtless not exactly for the reasons you are assuming. The
Tribulation is fast approaching and we all need to get spiritually ready. Part
of that preparation is inoculation against false teaching – and it seems you are
getting yours. The Baptists are generally good people and also generally
believers, but they are wrong on all manner of doctrines, the ones you mentioned
here being among some of the most dangerous to get wrong, especially for us now
on the threshold of the end times. When you say "reading the Bible prior to
learning this perspective I could not understand it very well and in my mind it
seemed there were contradictory statements throughout", this I would
interpret to be the Spirit telling you that this perspective was incorrect.
To get your questions answered, you need a good source of truth. Ichthys is one
source, in my opinion. I also highly recommend
Bible Academy (at the link).
But I would caution you that the teaching you are now receiving is dangerously
wrong on many counts – even if those providing it are otherwise "good
Christians".
See also:
Church: The Biblical Ideal versus the Contemporary Reality I
Church: The Biblical Ideal versus the Contemporary Reality II
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #3:
Thank you once again for your reply. I will read and study the links you
provided to me. I want you to know you are not just helping me but you
are helping my family as we try and draw closer to the Truth and the
Life. Locally we have been attending an Assembly of God church. They are
affiliated with Pentecost but I've never heard anyone speak in tongues
or anything like that. It seems like most of our pastor's teaching are
in line with yours. Is there any denomination that most closely teaches
the Bible as it should be? I feel that God wants us to be a part of an
assembly as the body of Christ in a physical way. I just don't want to
lead my family into a place of false teaching.
In Christ our Saviour and benevolent King,
Response #3:
You wrote: "I feel that God wants us to be a part of an assembly as
the body of Christ in a physical way. I just don't want to lead my
family into a place of false teaching."
That is indeed the dilemma. I think ALL Christians would say the same
thing. But what happens, when in this Laodicean era in which we find
ourselves, it seems that nearly every single Christian fellowship in our
particular geographical area is in fact given to false teaching, false
application, lack of dedication to the truth, hyper-emotional or hyper
ritual substitution of all manner of things in place of the truth of the
Word of God?
The silver lining to the above is that the very dilemma itself has the
benefit of making our choice very clear. If you were to find a place
that was teaching the truth and was not given to all the abuses briefly
mentioned (and outlined at the link in BB 6B
and other places at Ichthys), then by all means embrace it. But if not,
is it ever worth compromising the truth? For the sake of "fellowship"?
My answer to that for myself is along the lines of Galatians 2:5: "We
did not give in to them for a moment" (NIV), for how beneficial can any
fellowship be if based upon dedication to things that are decidedly not
true? But we all have to make our own decisions – hopefully yielding to
what the Spirit is actually telling us.
For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.
Hebrews 13:11-14 NKJV
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #4:
Hi Dr. Luginbill,
I pray you are doing well. My wife and I recently had our first child;
we are very busy these days, but doing well by God’s grace. It is truly
amazing how He answers prayer and shows such great love and mercy to an
undeserving Mephibosheth like me.
I wanted to ask you some quick questions about the Nicolaitans and their
doctrine, as mentioned by Christ in Revelation 2:6. Can you explain who
they were and expand on their doctrines and works? Moreover, are there
modern day Nicolaitans in the visible church? If so, who are they and
what do they teach?
Blessings in Jesus,
Response #4:
Congratulations, my friend! Wonderful news!
The Nicolaitans are mentioned only in Revelation and only at Rev.2:6 and
Rev.2:15. So all we know about them is what can be gleaned from those
two passages and their contexts. There is, for example, no basis for
finding the proselyte deacon in Acts 6:5 as being the "founder" of this
heretical group, and later speculation in the church fathers and ever
since is mostly wide of the mark.
As explained in CT 2A where the
subject is treated (under
Ephesus and at
the
link), the Nicolaitans, the etymology of whose name means "the
people rule" – which is to say, the majority rules over what the Bible
says – represented the false element of unbelievers who began to
infiltrate the church-visible over time to the point of finally taking
over for the most part during the church era of Sardis (when the Roman
Catholic church triumphed, in worldly terms). The Nicolaitans thus
represent an antinomian approach where members can "do as they please"
irrespective of what the Bible actually says; the other extreme,
legalism, reduces Christianity to a set of rules devoid of spiritual
power (in the manner of the Pharisees). But between human legalism and
absolute lawlessness we find true Christianity, the faithful following
of Jesus Christ through love of and obedience to the truth in the Word
of God.
So to answer your question, there have always been Pharisees and
Nicolaitans in the church-visible – which is to be distinguished from
the true Church of Jesus Christ composed of actual born again born from
above believers. Nowadays, it's hard to find a physical church which is
not dominated by one or the other of these former two categories.
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #5:
Dr. Luginbill,
Thank you very kindly for that information and response. I actually
really needed to hear this. You preached a mini-sermon to me that I hear
and know is the truth, thanks to the blessed Lord giving me an ear to
hear.
Response #5:
It's my pleasure.
Feel free to write me any time, my friend.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #6:
My concerns currently are, I hope, more productive. May I?
My church has just been given a steer towards contemplative prayer à la
Pete Grieg book How to Pray. It’s mostly good until I see he’s big into
this method, and he says that’s the best part for him. They have an app,
Lectio365, and lectures on YouTube. Search there for Pete Grieg Prayer
course. It’s episode 6. The app gives guided praying and some bible
verses each day, but the atmosphere is created by the repetitive New Age
music, and lulling voice. It’s like a relaxation session, or how to
hypnotize yourself! The YouTube video has them contemplating an Eastern
Orthodox icon, and at the beginning you see a blackboard covered in
Indian script. And imagining, not a stone’s throw from visualizing,
roots going down. Have a listen. With your armour on!
Been there, done that a little, and repented. Not going to get caught
again, no thank you!
A few years back, not knowing what it was, I was interested in it, just
to learn how to pray better, but got wind of the self hypnotic Eastern
mind emptying that seems to go with this idea, and with the similar
Centering prayer (Keating). I think contemplative and Centering prayer
are from the same stable, in effect.
They claim it has old Christian mystic roots, but that’s no guarantee of
anything. I smell a rat.
We are sitting out just such a stink in our currently unusable spare
room, where a mouse must have died between the floor boards. I can tell
you it really does stink!
Have you come across this prayer method? I regard biblical meditation to
be chewing over scripture, and really thinking on it, discussing it,
coming back to it. With my mind engaged.
I agree the worth of taking time alone and without distraction to be
with the Lord to pray, but setting a soporific mood in which to drift
into what is really an altered mindset is another matter. That is
meditation of a different sort. I’m told it invites demons.
The taking out of context of ‘be still and know that I am God’ is
typical. Ps 46. I read it all together as God telling us to stop trying
to do what is His to do, to take refuge with him. He’s got this battle!
And it will cease because of Him, and He is exalted. Our being quiet is
in awe at how great He is! Even a command to be quiet! Be still, rest in
your refuge. And perhaps even a stepping back from getting in the way
because this is His business?! A far cry from sitting in a darkened room
with a candle and reciting a mantra, even if it is ‘Jesus, Jesus’! It
becomes a mantra. Vain repetition?
Am I being silly? Have you come across this?
If you’ve got a moment I’d value your opinion please
Thank you
Response #6:
I can assure you that you are NOT being "silly". So-called
"contemplative prayer" is a very dangerous anti-biblical and anti-God
process. Lack of direction creates a vacuum into which only evil things
enter. It's all part and parcel of the whole Laodicean approach where
actual prayer – which takes effort – is supplanted by something "fun and
new and not old and stodgy".
First, Jesus taught us how to pray, and the Lord's prayer is actually
chock-full of all manner of truth that is not necessarily obvious at
first glance (see the links:
*Lord's prayer I; and
Lord's prayer II;
Lord's prayer III); everything we pray for in that prayer has
already happened in the plan of God so it serves to orient us to the
godly point of view for walking through this world.
Second, prayer should involve thanksgiving always (Eph.5:20). Don't
these people have anything to thank God for? Everything they have comes
from Him – even the fact of their creation, and how great is being born
again, born from above and having the resurrection to look forward to
instead of the lake of fire!
Third, we should be praying for others, for the spiritual growth of our
brothers and sisters in Christ (e.g., Col.4:12), for their other needs as
well, and for all other matters and individuals we see:
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1st Timothy 2:1-4 NIV
And finally of course we need to be praying also for ourselves – yes for
our health and relationship and material concerns, but also for our
spiritual advance and production most of all.
This takes much time, it takes effort to concentrate, and it takes a
great deal of sacrifice to be consistent day by day. "Contemplative
prayer" vs. true godly prayer offered by a real Christian prayer-warrior
is analogous to sitting on the couch eating potato chips listening to
music and stretching one's pinkies vs. jogging several miles in the gray
dawn at a good pace daily, even when it's raining: the former does you
no good only harm; the latter is difficult, often painful and
disagreeable – but it's the best thing for you.
Being persistent and consistent in good things is no vice, as long as we
keep our mind engaged in the Spirit.
What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also.
1st Corinthians 14:5a ESV
Here are some other links on this:
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #7:
Hi Bob,
Hope you having a nice and peaceful Sunday. I'm just starting an in
depth study of Revelation and so am reading your Coming Tribulation
alongside it. I was trying to find your section on what the Nicolaitans
were doing and then I stumbled on something that took me by surprise.
The Wikipedia is as follows: The trend began early in Christianity of
applying the term "Nicolaitans" to describe other antinomian groups with
no attachment to the historical Nicolaitans. Tertullian in his
Prescription Against Heretics, 33, is such an example: "John, however,
in the Apocalypse is charged to chastise those 'who eat things
sacrificed to idols,' and 'who commit sexual immorality.' There are even
now another sort of Nicolaitans. Theirs is called the Gaian heresy."
So I clicked on that link about the "Gaian heresy" and it is weird stuff
about "Cainites" venerating Cain. The reason this stuck out for me was
whilst reading today's emails someone mentioned a messianic ministry
that said that the wording that Eve said (when pregnant/ giving birth to
Cain) was actually "I have gotten a man: Jehovah."
I know from what you wrote in response that this is nonsense and is
implying that Cain is God somehow (which a bonkers idea) but was
surprised to find that this "Cainite" sect actually believed this! Again
from Wikipedia it says: Ireneaus states that the Cainites regarded Cain
as derived from the highest God, not the Creator God worshipped by Jews
and other Christians. According to Irenaeus, they claimed fellowship
with Esau, Korah, the men of Sodom, and all such people, and regarded
themselves as persecuted by the Creator. But they escaped injury from
him, because they were protected by the goddess Sophia.
Obviously this is all balderdash from the enemy but maybe the person who
has the messianic ministry is actually a Cainite! Just a thought! So
what is the truth about the Nicolaitans? Is Tertullian or Ireneus worth
reading at all?
P.s., I just realised maybe this is the cult where the whole "serpent
seed" being Cain heresy came from. If they believe that Cain came from
another false god that would have to be Satan. So maybe the whole lie
that the serpent and Eve brought forth Cain was actually from the
Cainite cult and so explains why they have the bible completely upside
down (the Gnostics that is)! Just a thought!
Maybe some of these heresies that pop up from time to time are not new
at all but ones that true believers have been battling against all
along! Nothing new under the sun! It seems the enemy is fond of
recycling lies with slightly contemporary window dressing!
Many thanks for your careful and patience guidance and fellowship my
friend!
In Jesus,
Response #7:
Irenaeus is not terrible, but also not terribly enlightening (and there
are many things in his writings which I could not endorse); Tertullian
is similar but even farther removed from the truth. The generations
which followed the apostles lost virtually all of their teaching – it's
a blessing they didn't lose the Bible! But they did "abandon their first
love" (Rev.2:4), of the truth, and it has taken the better part of two
millennia to claw out of the pit of false teaching, tradition,
speculation and legalism that the church-visible embraced instead of the
truth beginning immediately after the apostles' passing.
As to the Nicolaitans, they represent the false element inside of the
Church in John's treatment of the seven church ages. There is no
reliable information about them outside of those verses in Revelation,
merely centuries' later speculation which is dubious – but not as bad as
what you read in Wikipedia! Wherever anything spiritual is concerned, I
would expect to hear nonsense from that source.
I would give you the links, but you are already reading everything I
have been able to glean about this subject in
CT 2A.
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #8:
Thank you Bob,
I am listening to your Tribulation series (on mp3
at the link)
and it is helping me immensely. I realised before that Revelation is
ultimately about revealing Jesus Christ (as is the rest of the Bible)
but it didn't occur to me before that the Tribulation period will
actually be giving the majority of people exactly what they want, life
on Earth without God's restraint. For us who know the evil of mankind's
heart, it will be terrible but for others it will be seen as "unfettered
freedom". For THEIR WILL be done.
In a sense then Tribulation is a period for both men and angels, that we
will be basically 'left to it'. That we will all reveal the truth that
was within our hearts all along. It will be the wheat and the chaff,
those who delight in good and those who delight in evil with no middle
ground or bystanders. That is why we will be hated by all nations
because our behaviour and our witness will be a testimony against their
evil and because there will be a lot more of them than us, they will
want to be rid of us as quickly as the two witnesses.
My family keep saying that they believe people are inherently good. I
guess this will be a perfect time to see whether this is true or not,
whether left to their own devices, will mankind do good or evil. We know
the horrific consequences of this period of freedom from restraint will
bring on to the world. I find it strange that my family speaks of the
inherent good in people and yet they complain that the police aren't
tough enough and need to come in harder. I guess this is "talking out of
both sides of the mouth". We will truly get to experience first hand
what a completely lawless world looks like.
It makes me laugh to think of all these conspiracy theorists who think
that as long as the "cabal" gets taken down, then we will live in
paradise. They are completely blind to the all pervading corrosive
reality of sin and its nature and that none of us are exempt from it.
I realise how necessary the Tribulation period is now. I realise that if
a person won't seek God in the worst period of human history then they
would never seek God in a billion years anyway. As God is so gracious,
He is giving us plenty of opportunity to turn to Him and also abundant
proof of our own wretchedness and His own perfection. So it will be the
ultimate revelation of all our hearts to one another but most
importantly to God Himself.
Please let me know if I am on the right lines here!
Thanks again my friend!
In Jesus,
Response #8:
On "people are inherently good", I don't think anyone who's read
a history book could ever come up with that one! Of course that is the
basis of Platonic – and hence Marxist – philosophy. Which is why the
communists always put half the population in prison camps I suppose,
because they are so inherently good along with those they murder. As
Thucydides said in the 5th cent. B.C., "War is a violent teacher, and
brings most men's passions down to the same level as their
circumstances". And the Tribulation will be nothing but "wars and
rumors of wars".
As far as "if a person won't seek God in the worst period of human
history then they would never seek God in a billion years anyway",
amen to that! In fact, we know from Revelation 20:7-10, that after a
thousand years of perfect rule, the majority of the world's population
will rebel just as soon as they get the chance.
People are people, regardless of circumstances. But the pressure of bad
times and the opportunity to do wrong in good times both tend to bring
out what is really there under the surface.
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #9:
Hey Bob,
I just wanted to make some observations on the church visible that I
have made since becoming a Christian (of a Protestant persuasion).
Obviously I used to be a Catholic. Catholics, I have noticed, argue that
Protestantism is obviously false in that it is fractured into many
different denominations, whereas there is only one Catholic Church. My
argument is that Catholicism only needs one big lie and indeed it was
big enough and successful enough to fool millions (and keep on fooling
them). They have falsely fallen for the idea of safety in numbers.
I have been puzzled at the whole multi denominational split of
Protestantism and it makes me wonder, is this a trick of the enemy? If
we look at this from a military strategy perspective.. You are looking
for buried treasure in one of two rooms. The left hand room is
Catholicism and it only has one guard. The right hand room is
Protestantism and it has thousands of guards. Which room has the
treasure?
When I became a (protestant) Christian, I thought (naively) now that I
have found the treasure and the truth, I will be surrounded by fellow
Christians who believe the same and will help me to keep my faith and
treasure. It shocked me when I realised that this couldn't be further
from the truth. If anything many if not most professed "Christians" have
gone out of their way to give me stumbling blocks and false teachings.
They will also bicker about which of their false teachings is more false
whilst by being overlooked online by disgusted non-believers. I have
said before that to keep hold of my faith, I have had to jump over
holes, dodge arrows, swing on ropes and out-swim crocodiles and that is
from WITHIN the walls of "Christianity" itself. I thought that within
the walls I will be safe but I realise that safety will only be at the
end in God's arms!
Of course I am referring to wolves that are now inside the gate but what
I didn't expect is that there are now more wolves than sheep! We are
greatly outnumbered! It has been a sobering moment to realise that there
is more deception within the church visible and what passes for
"Christianity" than within the secular world in its entirety. I realise
this is that military strategy again. The weight of force is deployed
guarding the hidden treasure.
I used to play computer games a lot. You could always tell when you
neared the end of the game and was near to winning the treasure when it
became harder and harder and harder. The opponents became progressively
more fiercer and plentiful. That is what I have been experiencing. The
biggest bulk of attack from the enemy is on the Bible and on Jesus and
what Jesus has done for us and why. If this was a "game" or a military
operation then we would correctly deduce that Jesus and what the Bible
says about Him is the real treasure. So when the enemy is not busy
hiding the treasure from view and fighting us to the death so we cannot
get near to it, he is throwing distractions our way. Christians have
double the amount of distractions to fend off. They have all the choking
weeds of the secular world and then they have all the infighting and
confusing mess within the church visible itself.
It's sad to say this but there have been times when I have reached for
the remote during downtime and I have looked for a video with something
unrelated in it (such as videos about birdsong). I have done this to
avoid such things as "The God Channel" or "TBN" or an "insert famous
Christian Celebrity preacher name here" on YouTube because at times I
have actually thought the atheist making videos about birdsong will lie
to me less and watching this will be less damaging to my spiritual
health. I would say that is a shocking indictment on the church visible
that a believer feels safer around non-believers than those who profess
faith. At least I know what I will get from a non-believer. I don't know
what to expect from a fake Christian. They are far more dangerous to my
faith than an atheist could ever be.
This is not a message of defeat at all. It is just a sober portrait of
what it is like to be a relatively new-ish Christian in this Laodicean
era. My sympathies go out to people who come to faith after I have done
as I can only seeing it get worse and worse.
Indeed I feel as though I have already tasted all the things that will
lead people to join the great apostasy. I realise now how reading,
rereading and constant study of the Bible and sticking with one trusted
Bible believing ministry is the only way forward. Any compromise on
either of these two points will leave a person open to attack, deception
and eventual doubt.
I was stubborn enough to find out for myself how bad things are in the
church visible and it isn't as bad as what you said Bob: it's much, much
worse. At least I know now though and there is still a little bit of
time to make some progress!
I've decided that as I am clearing the decks at the moment of anything
false and I have already stuck my head above the parapet with the
Nazarene Pastor... I thought I would rip the other band-aid off by
replying to my atheist friend of long standing. He asked the question
quite a while ago "What do I think about magic?"
Please read over the answer I wrote below and let me know on anything I
can improve upon?
"I have been mulling over writing this for a bit. I was wondering whether to chat to you on the phone about it but as it is awkward I've decided to write it down instead. You mentioned magic (or magick) and witchcraft a few times and wondered what I thought about it. I am very aware of the fact that you have been gracious and generous about my Christian faith and naturally I wanted to extend to you the same courtesy. The problem is that I can't do this on the subject of magic/witchcraft because I am dead set against it and I can give good and practical reasons why. The obvious one is that it is in direct contravention of my faith. It is forbidden both in the New Testament as in the old. It is a "sin" and a rebellious one at that. What I understand now from my reading and research is that there IS power behind magic. The power behind magic is very real and a person can use it to bend the material world to their will. How they manage to do this is not because the practitioner themselves has supernatural powers but they are "given to them" from a spiritual being. Witches believe this power comes from the earth itself (The Force) and can be harnessed or is given to them from the "goddess" (Gaia). New Agers believe this power and all its associative knowledge comes from the "Ascended Masters". Christians believe that these forbidden powers come from demons or fallen angels. How this transmission of power happens I do not know. Whether you need to be possessed by the fallen angels/demons or whether they give the power another way. Either way the Christian view is that this is satanic, there really isn't any polite way to put it. What I have realised is that there is no such thing as "white magic" or good magic. As all magic is attempting to change the material world through spiritual means outside of God and against God then it has to be satanic to the very core. I've realised that the reason witchcraft is compared as on equal terms as rebellion (in the Bible) is that it IS rebellion, rebellion from God. The first rebel from God was Satan so it all fits together neatly that the power of magic or witchcraft comes from the rebels, Satan and other fallen angels. All angels, whether elect (loyal to God) or fallen (rebelled against God) have supernatural powers. The elect angels choose to use these powers to serve God, the fallen angels use it to rebel and fight against God. One way they do this is to give this power to humans through magic. So witchcraft and magic do not really exist in and of itself. Witches have no real power of themselves just as magic has no power of itself. These are just names given to the powers transferred from fallen angels/ demons to humans. So the only way to get these supernatural powers is through collaborating with demons. If you wanted to give it the proper label call it "borrowed power from demons". That would be more spiritually truthful. I hasten to add at this point that fallen angels (demons) actually hate humans' collective guts. They hate the fact that God created us after their rebellion and wanted a relationship with us. At the moment angels are superior to us in power. After death, angels will be below us in standing. They know this and the fallen angels despise us for it. So to use a human analogy-You wanted to poison someone so you decide to contact the world's expert on poisoning. He has agreed to sell you poison and to teach you how to use it. You have been invited to have dinner with him at his house. Whilst on the way to his house, a person on the way who is concerned about where you are going (that's me) and knows about this poisoner quite well (me again) says to you "I know what this poisoner is all about. Besides, I know for a fact that he hates your guts!" Would you still go to dinner at the poisoner's house? So to spell it out unsubtly.. The power behind all magic and witchcraft is borrowed power from Satan and other fallen angels (demons). These fallen angels hate your guts in fact in the bible it says that Satan's M.O. is to "steal, kill and destroy". He is also described as the "father of all lies". If whilst on the way to the dinner date with the poisoner, I told you that his motto was to "steal, kill and destroy" and he goes by the title the "father of all lies" would you still go?"
So what do you think Bob? It isn't at all subtle but you can't be subtle with a
person when they are about to drive blindly off a cliff!
I've realised that people who are tempted by such dangerous practices always
call out Christians as "narrow minded" for our flat out rejection of such
things. I realise that "narrow mindedness" is always associated as a pejorative
word and "broad minded" as a compliment. It is a not so subtle reference to the
narrow path and narrow gate as opposed to the broad road to destruction. The
truth is that we cannot be broad minded with these things or any of these
things. It's like the whole "tolerance" thing. My old friend may balk at the
fact that I cannot condone these things even by an inch. He may think this
unfair to rain on his practices whilst he has been sunny with mine. It all comes
down to whether you believe Jesus is the truth or not. We believe He is the
objective truth and the only truth and that would mean that everything else that
purports to be truth, whether it be other religions, other gods, magic or
atheism...Well they HAVE TO BE lies! They can't both be the truth. I know Jesus
is the truth. Whether my friend accepts this or not will be up to him. If he
thinks magic can be good, that would have to make me (in his eyes) the liar.
Unless he subscribes to the postmodern lies (see the Emergent Church) that there
is no truth and if there is then we cannot know it!
In Jesus, the way, the truth and the life,
Response #9:
Thanks as always for your great insights, my friend. I really think you
should consider this ability and the ability to write these things up
reasonably and persuasively as a possible venue for future ministry.
On splits in the non-RC churches, have a look at BB 6B at
BB
6B; I roundly refute in that posting the notion that there is
biblical justification for denominations or any "super church"
organization. WE are the Church, believers in Jesus Christ; in the New
Testament, churches are homes or other places WE believers gather to be
taught and to share the truth and encouragement in Jesus Christ. All
developments beyond that are of human origin and have caused much more
harm than they have done good.
Are there groups/denominations which have "problems" doctrinally? You
bet! Almost all do. Of course one difference between Protestant groups
and the RC-church is that many of the former contain a fair proportion
of actual believers in Jesus Christ . . . albeit lukewarm ones for the
most part – otherwise they would have found something good outside of
their flawed denomination. This is Laodicea, after all. If the believers
in the Baptist church were serious about the truth, they would sally
forth and find it. If the good individuals in the RC-church were
interested in being saved, they would leave that organization and seek
the Lord. And the Lord never ever lets anyone down who is seeking the
truth.
(7) "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. (8) For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened."
Matthew 7:7-8 ESV
I like to think that when you personally got serious about this search,
instead of sending you "crocodiles", the Lord led you to Ichthys. People
have to want the truth. Otherwise it's a case of "hearing and not
understanding", so that even the truth seems like parables which cannot
be fathomed.
As to witchcraft, of course you are correct, and well done you for such
a wonderful presentation! One thing to share here is that this
phenomenon you are noting and combating is nothing new. The problem was
endemic in the apostolic era, and Paul along with Peter and Jude had to
confront the problem head-on on numerous occasions (incipient
Gnosticism; there is a collection of links at the link).
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #10:
Hi Bob,
I have been going through your series on Peter and I just want to say
what an encouragement they are for me right now. Thank you for all your
hard work. I can only imagine how many lives have been changed by your
faithful witness. You will know one day !
Response #10:
Thank you so much!
That's really encouraging to hear.
I appreciate it a lot.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #11:
Dear Bob:
What I found disturbing is that modern cult definition seem to implicate
Jesus as a cult leader and his disciples as cult members:
http://csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm
What do you think? I believe if Jesus was preaching today many will
classify him as a cult leader from those criteria.
No doubt Jesus is God but what does that say about modern society?
Response #11:
I have my own list of cult characteristics (see
the link), and can assure you that any godly list will always
vindicate true biblical Christianity. Our Lord's teaching is 100%
consistent with the Bible – He is the Word of God incarnate, after all –
as that Bible existed in His day; and the rest of the New Testament past
the gospels is likewise 100% consistent with our Lord's teaching and
with that previous Old Testament – when all of these three areas of
scripture are rightly understood.
But let's have a look at your list:
1) "The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning
commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his
belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law." Godly
Christians are never excessive in their behavior.
2) "Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even
punished." Christians are free to leave a group any time.
3) "Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking
in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are
used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its
leader(s)." Biblical Christianity eschews all these things.
4) "The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members
should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to
date, change jobs, marriages or leaders prescribe what types of clothes
to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to
discipline children, and so forth)". Biblical Christianity eschews
all these things as well.
5) "The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for
itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered
the Messiah, a special being, an avatar or the group and/or the leader
is on a special mission to save humanity)." ??? I don't know how
anyone would try to pin this on biblical Christianity!
6) "The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may
cause conflict with the wider society." Christians are often
persecuted, but that is the opposite of this.
7) "The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for
example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and
rabbis of mainstream religious denominations)." Biblical
Christianity makes the "leader" the servant of all (Mk.9:35).
8) "The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends
justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members'
participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered
reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying
to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities)."
Never happens in a genuine Christian group.
9) "The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to
influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer
pressure and subtle forms of persuasion." Not in true biblical
Christianity.
10) "Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties
with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and
activities they had before joining the group." While this is a
classic cult tactic, it is never even suggested in the Bible.
11) "The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members." Not
if the Bible is central to the group's teaching. Evangelicals in
particular are known for their zeal in spreading the gospel and often do
over-do it – but, again, that it different from what cults do.
12) "The group is preoccupied with making money." Not if the
Bible and its truths are the reason for assembly.
13) "Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the
group and group-related activities." Again, there are plenty of
"Christian" churches that do this too, but no true biblical
Christianity.
14) "Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only
with other group members." Not at all, if the Bible is the standard.
15) "The most loyal members (the "true believers") feel there can be
no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other
way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they
leave (or even consider leaving) the group." True believers in
Christ live in the world but are not of the world.
It's not a bad cult list, and it is true that members of many main
stream churches in Laodicea which have sold out to the world and only
exist to exist have adopted – if somewhat mildly – many of these cult
characteristics, but you won't find them in the Bible – or any group /
ministry (such as Ichthys) which is dedicated to teaching and learning
the Bible. So I don't think this list could ever be effectively "weaponized"
against any group of believers – at least not if that group is genuinely
following biblical principles in a godly way.
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #12:
Dear Bob:
I think modern biblical churches don't fit the cult description as such.
But the days when our Lord walked the Earth and his disciples would seem
to fit more closely with the description like (Matthew 19:27) leaving
possessions to follow Jesus and travelling light. The threat of hell
(what Atheist anti-cult groups would call utilising guilt/shame) for all
those who do not follow him as well as apostates that forsake Jesus.
Or our zealous attitude towards our Lord demanded by the words (Luke
14:26) (Luke 9:62) which in regards to any other man saying those words
would be considered a Cult Leader. And our Lord's description of himself
(John 14:6) that skeptics who only see the man will also see that as
something a grandiose cult leader would say.
I think that therefore this cult list can easily be weaponized against
genuine believers.
Response #12:
Obviously, I can't agree at all with your assessment of our Lord's first advent ministry; just for example, outside of our Lord Himself, who clearly had not only the ability but the right to accomplish such miracles as healing and casting out demons, only the 12 and the 72 did any of these things and only for a limited time; also, the Bible and our Lord do not "threaten hell" – rather, they tell us the truth. Warnings and threats are not the same thing as the latter is always mean-spirited while the former genuinely has the person in question's best interests at heart. I do agree that many today are more than willing to misrepresent Him and the teachings of the Bible for their own benefit and nefarious purposes. It's always been that way. Those who would – and during the Tribulation those who will – persecute Christians have never and will not then need a list of justifications to do so. It will be enough that we profess Jesus Christ and show by our actions that we really do belong to Him.
"It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household!"
Matthew 10:25 NKJV
"Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you."
John 15:20a NKJV
During the soon to come Tribulation, genuine believers in Jesus Christ will be the ONLY "religious group" subject to persecution by antichrist (see the link). And we had better have "true zeal" for the Lord to get through that with our witness and our faith intact. And we had sure better see Him as the only One, the only Way, the only Savior – in an absolutely exclusive way. That will be the only safe way through all the trouble to come.
And in your hearts set apart in sanctification Christ as [your] Lord.
1st Peter 3:15 (cf. Is.8:13)
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #13:
Good Morning:
I love that I can ponder a question and then reach out to you with the
expectation that you will answer.
I just spent significant time going through your Soteriology writings
and have a much clearer understanding that God wanted me because He knew
I wanted Him and through Christ we will spend eternity together.
Over the last 3-4 weeks, our Pastor has stood in front of our Church and
made statements such as: “ this week alone another 3 people accepted
Christ” and the congregation cheers and claps.
I’m no stick in the mud and enjoy hearing about victories but it is all
a little unsettling for me because rather than celebrate their free-will
decision (which we all knew was coming since God created them knowing
their choice) I have this sense that there would be more relevance and
reasons for celebration if we heard the stories - not of the one being
‘saved’ but of the one who lead them to making their decision. As an
immature believer (surrounded by many in the same situation) it would be
more encouraging and instructive if we used the story that led up to
their decision as a teaching moment to better equip others on how to
position our lives and grow in our own sanctification to lead others out
of the darkness.
I find nothing negative in watching people do what they do to celebrate
a positive expression of choice and I ask only to settle this in my
mind. Perhaps there’s a future lesson to be shared regarding the
importance of stepping out into the darkness in an endeavor to draw the
lost into the light. Do I have this right?
If I’m out to lunch and focusing on trivial/non-value-added stuff that
bears no weight on building the Kingdom, please be forthright and shut
me down. I have a tendency to step back into the wilderness by chasing
rabbits.
Blessings,
Response #13:
It's always good to hear from you.
I share your concerns. There are lots of problems with the way
brick-and-mortar churches do things these days. Instead of focusing on
teaching the Bible, it's always "more exciting" to hear "wonderful
testimonies" about "spiritual victories". Clearly, we do need some of
this for mutual encouragement, but apropos of your point, unbelievers
only become believers through hearing the truth of the gospel, and
believers only gain true spiritual victories through applying the truth
of the word of God. I like butter on my bread. But all butter and no
bread is recipe for long-term problems.
You'll find a great deal about all this in the newly posted
BB 6B – and long discussions about the
reasons for why this is. Short answer: we find ourselves in the last
Church Age
era of Laodicea (link).
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #14:
Hello doc Robert. I am so happy to hear from your again sir specifically
you asking me about my career and health. I really appreciate it doc
Robert. By God's grace sir I am getting stronger amidst everything.
It's been a while since I've shared with you my life undertakings. I am
now married sir for several months already. I have resigned from job sir
due to job pressure and constant quarrel with my boss. I felt like I
cannot grow spiritually if that persists sir. So I quit from my job and
decided to get into another venture sir. I am still struggling
financially but by the grace of God and with my wife's help sir I am
able to pay my loans partially. I feel like it will take me a lot of
years to pay everything, however slowly through His Word sir I have been
inspired and just continue fighting through life's struggles. By His
grace sir I strongly believe everything will be okay, for nothing is
impossible with Him.
I and my wife also had too much heated arguments about our differences
in faith and beliefs sir. Thankfully, by His grace again doc, we are now
slowly reaching to a point of agreement. Hopefully she will no longer go
back to Pentecostalism where oneness doctrine and speaking in tongues
are taught and prevalent. I am now even preparing some slides where I
will discuss with her biblical doctrines, and of course I've also
included some of your articles sir as reference. For several months I
haven't attended church and just stayed at home and read the Bible. I
feel like Laodicean Era is what we live in now sir and too much
corruption occurs recently in churches. It was only last Sunday that I
went to a church again with my wife, as we've agreed that she will no
longer take part in Pentecostalism.
Sir just like before, please continue to pray for me and my family. That
we may be strong in the faith and I and my wife will continually serve
and worship God in spirit and in truth. That we are saved by faith. That
our respective families too will come in true faith since Pentecostalism
and Catholicism dominate them. That we may be able to beat life's tests
by His grace. That we will be able to pay off our debts that consume so
much of our energy and frustration making us exhausted at times. That my
wife and I will be able to earn substantially in our new venture to pay
off monthly bills and obligations (I do not desire material riches. I
just want our debts be erased and have our basic needs answered, which
will definitely be provided by Him. With all the bills to pay now sir I
feel exhausted at times). That I, as the head of the family, continue to
lead my family sir in serving Him.
Please include us in your prayers sir. God will bless you more and more
doc Robert. Continue to be an instrument of goodwill sir in the Lord.
In Jesus our dear Lord & Savior,
Response #14:
Thanks for the update, my friend. I will certainly add these prayer
concerns to my list. I've also added a prayer request for you at
Ichthys.
These are "interesting" times – but nothing like what is soon to come.
I greatly appreciate the good spirit of faith that shines forth from
your message, my friend!
"With such sacrifices God is well pleased."
Hebrews 13:16 NKJV
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #15:
Dr. L.,
I've been a weekly reader of your site for almost 2 years now. I wanted
to thank you for all the effort you put into your ministry. This should
have come to you a long time ago. Your work has had a profound impact on
my spiritual life. It has allowed me to open myself to Jesus in ways I
never could in the many traditional churches I've attended. It also came
at just the right time.
About 5 years ago I left the US Army after 10 years of service to
provide a more stable life for my family. I was an Infantry Officer with
2 deployments to Iraq and many more training ones as well. In total I
spent probably about more than half my time away from my wife and kids.
Leaving also left me with no real direction and, since I was really only
a 1 hour on Sunday believer (born and raised a Roman catholic), I had no
real spiritual foundation to rely on. Over the course of the next three
years, I was lost and living in a pretty atheistic/paganistic area,
Portland Oregon, which didn't help. The general life situation, my
actions, and my reaction to my families actions really put a strain on
my them. Then about 2 years ago I stumbled across your website through a
news site, which probably didn't even read yours because they couldn't
be further from the truth if they tried.
I couldn't read your SR or CT series fast enough. My heart just burst
with sudden realization that I finally realized what I had been missing
in my life, the real truth of Jesus Christ, the true understanding of
Gods word. and a deep abiding faith in him. Church felt not believable,
especially the Roman Catholic Church, but also the various protestant
denominations I tested. The messages seemed tame and unrelatable to my
daily experiences, the fellowship disingenuous, and the rituals fake. It
wasn't until I found your site that I realized what I had been failing
to do, developing a personal belief in and relationship with God.
Since then I've really come to see how God had been and continues to
work in my life. I've really come to enjoy the time I can spend reading
my bible every day and going through your bible studies. I even started
learning Greek about 4 months ago which is turning out a lot better then
expected and another activity I'm starting to really enjoy. My previous
attempts at learning languages, 4 years of high school French and 4
semesters of college Spanish, resulted in straight C's and the ability
to only say "my name is..." all these years later. The Greek I've
learned has allowed me to see a deeper meaning to some of the Greek
bible I can currently read that doesn't come across in the English.
On the family front, after really making a commitment to growing my
relationship with God I can say things are beginning to get more stable
(outside of the self imposed craziness of the covid mad world). God
really put it in my heart to leave Oregon and I found similar work in
North Carolina, a much more family friendly and stable environment than
Portland, Oregon. Since we make microchips we were deemed essential and
I've been able to work throughout the crisis. I have a better spiritual
perspective to handle the ups and downs of being a husband and father.
(Still a ton more to grow there though.
Some days I'm definitely a better Soldier than others. Also it has given
me the comfort and piece of mind to weather this current "crisis" with
my family knowing that God is in control and, despite the current power
play by the world and its leaders, this will all work out in the end,
and gloriously so.
Sorry for the long email but I really needed to say thank you after all
this time. Without your work I don't think I would have ever listened to
what God was telling me throughout my life. I probably would have
continued to self will myself down what would have been a spiritually
dangerous path. Especially in the times we are living.
In our Dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
Response #15:
Wonderful to make your acquaintance! And thanks so much for your
service. I'm sure you hear that a lot, but I truly mean it. I never had
to go to Iraq or Afghanistan – or risk getting shot at. I don't think
most people really have any conception of what going some place like
that under those circumstances and having to be "stand up" as a member
of the military takes (or takes out of you).
I appreciate your great testimony. I can't think of any positive
believer whom I've ever gotten to know well who doesn't have an
analogous testimony of wandering around for a good long time until the
Lord brought him/her to a good place. Of course it first takes getting
serious about the Lord. We are given "wake up" calls, and if we respond,
THEN the Lord provides what we need . . . and are willing to receive.
That was certainly how it went with myself. I'd probably be dead if I
hadn't FINALLY gotten with the program. So when you say "Without your
work I don't think I would have ever listened to what God was telling me
throughout my life", I would say 1) you became willing to listen, and
then 2) God provided a source of the truth that was right for you – if
Ichthys wasn't your "cup of tea" for whatever reason, He would have
provided you with something else (I also highly recommend
Bible Academy at the
link).
All that said, it is a very great pleasure to have you here. Since you
are learning Greek – and may be thinking about the possibility of
ministering the Word yourself at some point – I want to let you know
that there is an online forum of a number of believers connected with
Ichthys who are in a similar situation. If you would like, I would be
happy to ask the moderator to send you an invite. There is also a
general readers' forum (I can ask for an invite for you for that one as
well). I'm not sure how active they are at the moment (I don't
participate), but I do know that these have helped a number of readers
form some good bonds of fellowship with other dedicated believers.
Again, thanks for the email and do feel free to write back any time.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #16:
Thank you for the quick reply and kind words.
I wish I could have had an equally quick response but I got very busy
over the weekend. My air conditioning decided to stop working as soon as
things started to heat up. I normally wouldn't mind but having 4 kids
sleeping downstairs outside your bedroom can make for some tough nights.
As far as learning Greek and eventually ministering the word it is not
out of the realm of possibility. I don't want to jump the gun and say
that's what I may be called to do but feel I should at least be prepared
for whatever God has in mind for me. In the least it is benefitting me
growing my understanding of his word.
Also, since joining the Army I've held a lot of leadership positions and
the one thing that always made me successful is the ability to encourage
those around me during difficult times. I'm never the typical leader
most would envision, I'm not Rambo, opinionated, or an A type
personality, but I've always been able to get most individuals and Teams
to not give up when things weren't looking so good. Fortunately, this
approach has allowed me to have some success as a leader all these
years. Being blessed with some equally optimistic and persistent people
around me has also helped. I definitely feel this will probably play
some role in the situations God may use me for in the future. So in
order to motivate and help people persevere I need to know and believe
as much as I can myself. That's kind of why I've taken your advice to
learn Greek and time willing Hebrew.
I would definitely be interested in joining the forums you mentioned. I
do feel like I'm on an island right now and would look forward to having
some Interaction with like minded believers.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Response #16:
Good to hear back from you! I just sent an email to the moderator asking
him to send you an invite for both lists. He just started a new job so
he might be a little backed up. If you don't hear anything in about a
week or so, let me know and I'll ask him about it again.
Thanks for the update and background on your leadership style. It sounds
ideal for a prospective pastor-teacher. Plus, being a parent, you have
an excellent feel no doubt from that perspective as well for how to
balance love and discipline – a hard thing for many to get right.
As far as feeling like you're "on an island", that is a very common
experience for new Ichthys readers. Continuing with "church" and being
serious about pursuing growth generally leads to nausea – regarding one
or the other. Hypocrisy is difficult for all who are really trying to
walk closely with Jesus Christ. But I do know that while some
"wilderness time" is often given to us as a matter of grace (so as to be
able to concentrate on growing), the Lord always provides just what
we need in regard to mutual support from those who love Him too. I hope
these new connections will be helpful and also profitable for you in
growth, progress and preparation to minister. As I've had occasion to
say quite a bit of late, given the deplorable state of preparation in
Laodicea, once the Tribulation does start, I would imagine that there
will be a great deal for prepared and gifted believers like yourself
today, once the lukewarm realize that they're going to have to "get red
hot or die".
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #17:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
Some time ago, you wrote to me about the interpretation of this verse,
but I cannot find this email or article you wrote about it. It was
something about the Jews not assembling themselves, or something to that
effect. If you can remember what you said about this I would appreciate
it that you would respond to me about what you said.
I have finally convinced, or rather God has I should say, this brother
who was determined to prove me wrong about the fact that Jesus did
declare Himself to be the Son of God in two different places. Now I have
this question to reply to him because he is using this one scripture to
justify going to church on Sunday.
I appreciate your great help.
Many thanks,
Blessing to you always, and may the Grace of God be with you.
Your friend,
Response #17:
Congratulations on your success, my friend!
I'm not particularly good at convincing people of the truth when they
are not initially interested in accepting it. Persuasion is not a strong
suit (probably because patience is not either).
As to the Hebrews passage, I've written about this many times and often;
here is one good link that links to many others.
In essence, these believers in Hebrews were not acting like Christians
at all because they were afraid of the local non-Christian populace. And
in that non-tech era, there were not many ways to benefit from each
other's gifts and grow without physically getting together with other
Christians. But that is a far cry from what "church" is like today as it
has come to exist in Laodicea where no good comes of assembly, only a
feeling of self-righteousness for having gone – much like the RCs going
to mass.
Some appropriate verses for "if the shoe fits":
"When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations— I cannot bear your worthless assemblies. Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them."
Isaiah 1:12-14 NIV
"I hate, I despise your religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me."
Amos 5:21 NIV
"Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you," says the LORD Almighty, "and I will accept no offering from your hands."
Malachi 1:10 NIV
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good.
1st Corinthians 11:17 NIV
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #18:
Dr Luginbill:
Thank you for thinking of me. I will be reading this and it is timely
indeed. While I understand the church is not a building or denomination
I am having a mighty difficult time finding one that seems to be a fit
for my wife and I.
I finally got my wife to leave the Methodist Church as they are so far
down the road of liberalism (and I would call it apostasy) that we just
could not take it anymore. The last straw was several weeks ago, the
preacher gave a sermon on justice. And he stood up there and preached
that justice is socially defined and he spoke of Plato and Aristotle and
used as a reference a book by a woman named Karen Swallow Prior who is
an extreme theologically liberal seminary professor. He only used one
verse in the whole sermon Micah 6:8 which liberals like to take out of
context.
Now, I wouldn’t have said anything to him. I would have left the
building quietly but I am standing there having coffee talking to some
friends in the lobby and he just happens to come by and looks me in the
eye and asked how I was doing. I wasn’t irate but I said what was on my
mind that any definition of justice in my opinion should be based on the
character of God; justice is not determined relationally because if it
is then what is just can change and true justice does not change. I also
told him I thought he was a danger to peoples souls and not biblically
qualified to preach. Of course he told me I was not very gracious. And I
told him that liberal Christians always love to tout grace but even
Jesus didn’t show a lot of grace when he went in to cleanse the temple,
and thus this appeal to grace was a liberal cop-out way to try to keep
people from calling out poor teaching and that his sermon basically had
no Biblical content except one verse that is basically a liberal
favorite because it is a proof texting way to avoid sin, repentance and
other Biblical teachings.
Needless to say, my wife doesn’t want me to go to the Methodist Church
anymore!!!
Here in Texas, where there seem to be churches on every corner it is
harder than you would think to find a good one.
If you rule out Methodists and southern baptists the liberal
Episcopalians and Lutherans it leaves few choices.
You know, you do such wonderful work with many things and eschatology
among them.....but here is something that is on my mind: the “church
visible” as opposed to the True Church is in such a state of disarray
that I have been finding myself wanting Jesus back to straighten out the
mess we as humans have made. I think that things are such a mess only he
can do it.....and this makes me think the time is near because I don’t
think he will let some humans go on for long making a mockery of the
church.
Thank you for this and my prayers are with you.
Regards,
Response #18:
I do think, given what you've written me here, that BB 6B will be a
tonic for you in many respects (link).
It's not just Texas. The whole country – and I dare so the whole world –
is suffering from this "Laodicea effect". Plenty of churches; little to
nothing of the truth being taught.
The Lord will be back to "straighten it all out" soon enough indeed –
but there's a lot of rough road between here and there. God helping us,
we'll make it through, if that is His will for us to do.
Write any time, my friend.
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #19:
Wouldn't you also say that we meet together (in true church) for
fellowship and good works towards each other and breaking of bread
together, not just for true Bible teaching? It does seem to also say to
pray together and sing Psalms, and a couple of other things. So not just
Bible teaching. Per multiple places in Paul's letters. The idea of
different Scriptures completing a picture when put together, whereas
just one only tells you part of the picture is elsewhere in the Bible,
to. There are commands to do those things where you gather/in church,
just as valid as the Bible teaching.
And on the fellowship on particular, if I can just zoom in on that one,
I know some would say 'church is not a social club', how do you expect
people to even get to know each other, let alone decide they even like
each other, let alone being able to decide if they are a real believer
(if they are not, you should avoid them since they are lying and being
hypocritical), and how to help if they are in trouble (or to even know
when they are in trouble)? You get to know someone partly simply through
socializing with them over time. Some churches are full of people who
are strangers to each other. Why help a stranger, you don't know if they
are a sexual offender (since it isn't like the church screens at the
door) or if they are a true saint. You'd have to get to know them first.
In other words, socializing, almost like you would at a club or any
organization where there is fellowship. How many verses say to love each
other? Part of that is getting to know the person. Spending time with
them either talking or doing something together.
Anyway that was just going into detail on one of the things I mentioned.
What do you think, may I ask?
Response #19:
First, there is a great deal about this and all manner of related issues
and questions directly related in the recent posting BB 6B: Ecclesiology
(link), most of which
is about the local church.
The purpose of the local church is mutual encouragement through the
truth (Heb.10:24-25). Since all believers have spiritual gifts and,
after reaching maturity, are called to individual ministries, of course
we need to know other Christians in order to minister to them – and they
to us. But it would be impossible to get together regularly in someone's
home for Bible class without getting to know them, human beings being
what we are. Just read all of Paul's salutations in his epistles and you
can easily see that good Christian relationships were the rule. However,
none of these were formed in a brick-and-mortar-church, because such
things never existed in the Bible. The way "church" works today,
everything is artificial. And from artificiality springs more
artificiality.
The real issue is that socializing in a brick-and-mortar-church today is
the main reason such places exist; whereas Bible teaching – and all the
needful peripheral ministries empowered by actually teaching the truth –
is an afterthought at best (and usually not present at all, in truth,
even if some places make a show of it).
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #20:
Sorry to bother you again but on your mentioning of the artificiality, I
think it is true that is a bit of a problem in conventional church. It
might have to do with the ceremonial aspect. Since the main service is
ceremonial, then they have to have other places where you can drop
handles (like dropping titles in the military outside of formation).
Thank you for bearing with me.
Response #20:
Ceremony, ritual, is one of the standard ways that the church-visible
substitutes for doing it's actual job, and having a dedicated building
wherein to put the accouterments of ritual/ceremony (candle sticks,
stained glass windows, statues, communion gear, altar tables, pulpits,
pews, carpets, chandeliers, etc., etc.) is "helpful" for that dead,
anti-truth approach – as are all of the meaningless rituals themselves
which make up the bulk of a standard "church service" in lukewarm
Laodicea, even in churches which contain some actual Christians. But
there's little to nothing there for a believer who wants to grow closer
to Jesus Christ.
Fellowship? What true fellowship can there be between Christ and Belial
(2Cor.6:15)? Believers who act like unbelievers and eschew the truth can
only bring us heartache in the end. We usually get enough of that from
those who are "near and dear" from days past and often through no choice
of our own (family). No need to make things worse. If we are chasing
happiness through relationships, we will find in the end that the only
relationship which makes for true happiness is the one we have with our
dear Lord Jesus Christ. No human being can make us happy, and unless
someone shares our love for the Lord, any such relationship can lead to
great disappointment and unhappiness – even if it begins "in a church".
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #21:
I can’t believe you remember me thanks. Everyone is fine. I read a lot
of your end time material. I've downloaded most all your site just in
case. I’m getting the feeling we’re very close to Christ Return.
I backslid terribly after my divorce but He brought me back after some
harsh correction. I constantly look for signs of present times in
scripture. I can’t help it but I feel so mad about the Church (Baptist)
supporting Trump. I do visit the church every few months for communion.
I couldn’t possibly recommend anyone else attend.
Thanks again for remembering me
Response #21:
My pleasure.
Given your testimony, I think BB 6B (link)
will give you some good insights and encouragements.
Your friend in Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #22:
Thank you Bob. I have started to read it and you have done a wonderful
job once again. Thank so much for your hard work. Your work and your
website have changed my life.
After reading just the first few parts of your
BB 6B: Ecclesiology
series I am reminded about how few people really want the truth. Of all
my friends that I attended church with only one of them will even read
some of the teachings on your website. I know longer attend my old
church. When I tell them that I have found someone who has a teaching
ministry, and that our church was not teaching the Bible, they of course
get defensive. I have asked them if they would be willing to look at
what I been studying and they usually say yes, but then they never bring
it up again. You would think they would want to know more, they have
commented about how much I have grown spiritually, but that is a far as
it goes.
I remember reading one your emails to someone where you had stated how
some of the people close to you think it is nice what you are doing with
your ministry, but that is as far as it goes. I thank God that he lead
me to you and that I have a desire to keep growing.
Response #22:
Thank you so much for this encouraging email, my friend!
Our friend has developed an "Ichthys forum" for readers to get together on line.
Let me know if you'd like for me to have him send you guys an invite.
In Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #23:
Hi Bob,
Unfortunately things on the job front got delayed again. My new start
date is ___. This time things really should go through as I have that
date on a firm offer in writing. My parents weren't thrilled since we
effectively ate a full month of apartment rent and utilities for no
reason due to delays and incorrect timing estimations on their end.
There's nothing that can be done about it though, so life goes on.
I'm visiting a local church for the first time since I moved tomorrow
morning. Based on recorded lessons, it's at least not as awful as others
in my area. I'm thinking of skipping the services and only showing up
for the Bible study on Wednesdays and community groups that never
pretended to be anything other than social time (I wouldn't mind
spending some time with Christian friends every week even if it was no
more than that -- we all need some level of social interaction after
all, and one could do worse). I'm also thinking of participating in
similar small groups at a couple other places for a little while to send
out feelers for interest in a Bible study I'd lead (recruiting, more or
less). Does that sound like a reasonable idea?
I'm close to launching my own ministry site, and will sink more
dedicated time into that once it's up (I'll keep you posted). If I can
get enough truly interested people locally though, I still think I'd
like to run something in-person, if possible. Even it's only 3 or so
people, if they are actually interested in/receptive to Ichthys and my
own teaching ministry, I think it would definitely be worth it.
Here's the list of screening factors I'm bringing to churches on my list
(I'm presupposing orthodox positions on basic stuff like the trinity,
deity of Christ, inspiration, etc.):
- Actual teaching is going on, and teaching is focused on scripture
rather than pop psychology and anecdotes.
- Church is autonomous and independent from a denomination that
determines doctrine
- No hyper Calvinism (predestination without free will)
- No OSAS
- No pre-trib rapture, amillennialism, preterism
- No tongues or other signal/sign gifts (often phrased in terms of some
"second baptism" of the Holy Spirit).
- Teaches a literal, eternal hell where unbelievers go. (No universalism
or annihilationism).
- Does not teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation
- Does not teach that women can be pastors
- Homosexuality, transgenderism, sex before marriage, divorce outside of
infidelity/abuse/etc., and so on are taught as being sinful, no matter
what the current cultural situation says
- No formalized confession of sin to other human beings (pressure to
have "accountability partners" or "discipleship mentors" included)
- No pressure (explicit or implied) to tithe, as if it were something
expected or suggested for NT believers
We'll see if I can actually find a place that checks all the boxes. I'm
in "Baptist country" (so to speak): almost all the churches on my list
are some stripe of Baptist. OSAS is probably going to be the item broken
most often, and pre-trib rapture after that.
I'm mostly looking for environment(s) in which I can meet Christians who
are likely to be more receptive to Ichthys/my own teaching. I'm less
interested in actually growing from the teaching therein as I have
Ichthys. Hopefully that makes sense.
Yours in Christ,
Response #23:
Sorry to hear about the job. Sounds like the military: "hurry up and
wait" for one SNAFU or another. Still, there has been a benefit if it's
shown you that a structured job isn't all bad. Let's wait and see how
you like 9 to 5, however.
Hope your expedition today was profitable. Finding a church which checks
these boxes is likely to be one you start yourself. That's a good plan.
A fellowship of a handful is still a blessing. That's the way Ichthys
started.
Thanks again for helping our friend! You probably got the latest update
from our other friend.
I'm keeping you and your family in my prayers daily, my friend.
In Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #24:
Thank you Bob
I have started on ichthys, and it’s a mighty read! Thanks for the
latest. I also listen to the likes of Mike Winger, and Chris Rosborough,
Doreen and Melissa saved out of New Age, John MacArthur, Justin Peters,
Paul Washer. And I did enjoy John Piper, but people seem to worry that
he’s shared a stage with Rick Warren. I don’t know whether he’s gone
over so to speak. I’m also interested to read people like Ray Yungen,
because I worry about the drift that’s going on. I hope they’re sound?
Some are cessationist and some not. I just don’t want a charismaniac!
I used also to listen to Jacob Prasch with interest because he shared so
much Jewish insight. Lots of details made more sense. Then one day he
frightened me by saying 2 Cor 6:17 means a Christian who married an
unbeliever should come out of that relationship. I thought it was more
about idols. But he contradicts Paul in 1 Cor 7 so I hope he’s wrong,
but maybe you can imagine he knocked me over for a while. He has a very
powerful style and is adamant.
For reasons of discernment I avoid Bethel, NAR, Joyce Meyer, Steven
Ferris, Rick Warren and similar.
Does my list sound ok? I’m heading into reformed territory.
Thank you again Bob
Your friend in Christ
Response #24:
I'm not familiar with all of these folks, so I can't recommend the ones
I don't know. And the ones I am familiar with I couldn't recommend
either.
I certainly don't presume to tell any Ichthys reader to whom they can
and can't listen. But I do recommend Ichthys – and also
Bible Academy (at the
link)!
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #25:
Hi Bob
Sorry, shouldn’t have asked you. Hoping for a sanity check was all. But
may I check something of your answer I don’t understand quite, please?
"And the ones I am familiar with I couldn't recommend either."
Do you mean that following your stated principle, you refrain from commenting, which I think is perhaps the case, or that there were some on the list you feel I’m mistaken in listening too, and so couldn’t recommend? Oh the niceties of the ‘English’ language! Then I have the puzzle of working out which they are! Should keep me on my toes
Response #25:
My apologies
I didn't mean to be opaque. In my opinion, there is serious Bible
teaching and there is preaching. Most "Bible teachers" I've been asked
about over the years have turned out to be, on investigation, doing the
latter, not the former – and to be wrong when they occasionally do make
attempts at the latter. It's a particular point with me and explains why
I've done what I've done with my life. Every one of these people is
responsible to the Lord for their production – or lack thereof. To put
it in secular terms, feeding people nothing but store-bought chocolate eclairs may produce short term happiness, but in the end will come
scurvy and all manner of other diseases. On the other hand, it takes
time and effort and planning to feed people balanced meals consistently
and over time – and they often don't appreciate that because it's not as
much fun. Whenever someone comes to this ministry and indicates a
possible willingness to actually learn and grow from the truth, it's my
responsibility to warn them off from silliness – if they're willing to
be warned off.
In addition, there are Bible teachers whose teaching leaves much to be
desired because it is fraught with false doctrine. I've seen and heard
enough of both Johns here (Piper and MacArthur) to be leery of even
suggesting I'm OK with what they teach (you can find some of that on the
website if you search for it).
Finally, there is also an authority principle at work here (covered in
detail in BB 6B). Ideally all ministers of the Word would all teach the
same thing – more or less – because we are all getting our truth from
the same blessed source. However, there is a great deal of misinformation
out there at present. What is a believer to do? A believer needs to find
a good primary source (or a few who are in essential harmony) and pay
attention once that/those source/sources have been thoroughly vetted.
After all, you can't grow unless you believe what you're being taught
and it also has to be true. But if you're picking and choosing from this
and that source what you will and won't believe, well, let's just say
that those without the gift of Pastor-Teacher tend in such cases to pick
the worst of each of their stable of teachers and end up greatly
befuddled.
I would never ever tell anyone that they have to read Ichthys alone (or
Bible Academy). It's
just that these two are the only two in-depth sources I know of that I
can recommend with confidence as places where a believer can grow from
giving serious attention to the truth. As I say, I don't know many of
the other names on your list (except in your reject column), so it's
possible that one or a number of these are excellent Bible teachers who
teach the whole Word of God in sufficient depth and with sufficient
dedication to make it possible to grow up to spiritual maturity under
their tutelage. If so, the principle above still applies, however,
namely, it would be better to find the right one – for YOU – and give
that right one your attention (once fully vetted, as I say). That's the
best way to grow up with confidence in the truth.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #26:
Dear Bob
Thank you! It is as serious as I’ve come to realise, yes. I am willing
to be warned! Disappointing about MacArthur. And I will look for that,
thank you.
I’ve puzzled about testing the spirits, over Christ having come in the
flesh. How to tell who is a good teacher without so much studying that
you’d then hardly need one! I’d thought originally that formula for
testing was to address Gnosticism in apostolic times, but that didn’t
satisfy. It’s also for us, surely, so I’ve been trying to apply that to
what today’s silliness is doing to undermine the simple message of
Christ and all He is. Any wrong headed doctrine can say Jesus is Lord,
so that also can’t be all there is to that.
So yes, I want truth, but I am a quickly tired brain who is already
recognising how it starts that I might well get like my dear mother, who
now can’t remember what we discussed 10 mins earlier. I can’t hold it
all in my head! So of course it’s natural to want to look for a sound
teacher and sit at their feet.
It also bothers me that sometimes it feels technically complicated, (I
tried to read Augustine on the Spirit and the letter but couldn’t retain
it - v dense) and yet Jesus spoke of children coming to him, and that we
need a child like faith, which tells me to trust more and worry less,
but there must be meat there too, into which I may grow.
Yesterday I listened to a Lutheran teacher, Chris Rosborough, of
“Fighting for the faith” . He caught me out on a subtlety that made me
realise I was stuck in works. He said, paraphrasing slightly: "Many
pastors would say the purpose of a sermon is to encourage a free will
decision to intentionally decide to apply biblical rules and principles
so as to be more Christlike." I fell for it! No he said. It’s to Exegete
a text properly, to make correct distinction between law and gospel, for
the purpose of convicting you of your sin; to proclaim Christ so faith
is built up. Then through faith you mortify your sinful flesh through
the Holy Spirit, and God produces in you the fruit of the Spirit.
This is an example of how my thinking slides around. I was equating
applying biblical rules, and following them, in the first statement,
with mortifying the flesh so as not to follow it, in the second. I get
that the second sermon is saying God is doing the work in us, not us
trying to be Christlike by our works, as in the first, which will never
be enough. But I can’t manage to explain what the difference is in how I
live, not quite.
Mortify, put to death, but how is that separate from exertion or effort?
I was delighted to hear Michael Heiser, in his podcast through
Colossians, say something about Col 2:7 that we just can’t see in the
English. Now I forget whether it was the rooted, or the built up, or the
established he referred to, though they all colour the same thought, but
he said it was God doing this, not us. That was such a relief! And I
remembered God will finish the works he starts.
I am such a serious intense person, willing to dig but unfortunately
soon weary, and now so prone to forget what I’ve discovered. I remember
when I was baptised, about 5 yrs ago now, I thought I’d never get my
head around it all, Topics spread in little bits though the Bible, and I
still feel I’m not integrated, but I know I have made progress. I still
feel overwhelmed, but I’m obviously making some progress.
I am very grateful for your resources, and I have started, but there’s
so much there! God bless you, a life’s work. I feel so near the end of
mine, sometimes, and mourn the wasted years, but no point in that.
No, I will recognise deception with God’s help, (I pray for that) by
knowing about the real thing, as bank tellers do with dud bank notes.
And it wouldn’t hurt to ponder more on the difference between trying,
post salvation, to follow rules, even though I thought that was my
loving response to being saved, Vs. letting God finish his work in me.
Tricky thing, mortifying. Any thoughts on that distinction? They say
you’ve got it when you can explain it. I don’t think I’ve got it yet!
sorry, that’s not a challenge, just me recognising myself!
And so to breakfast I have the joy of a lockdown webinar later, singing
along to early renaissance music, which is my joy. I nearly forgot!
God bless and keep you
Response #26:
You're most welcome.
I think if any Christian gives any ministry a serious look, looking with
the idea of "buying" (at least for the foreseeable future), then he/she
will be able to tell pretty quickly if the fruit being produced is 1)
clearly good rather than questionable; and 2) sufficiently nutritious to
be able to produce spiritual growth (see the link:
"The
fruit test"). Contemporary Christians often fail to utilize this
test, however, generally because 1) they are not really looking for good
nutritious food but rather only to be entertained or find relationships,
not really being interested in doing the hard work of spiritual growth,
and/or 2) are unwilling to commit to a single ministry but want to have
Smorgasbord of teachers, often because they are only interested in
certain teaching and are not willing to take the broad-based whole-Bible
approach – which is essential for spiritual growth.
But whenever a Christian gets serious about the truth as you have done,
this process of winnowing begins in earnest and will eventually come to
the correct place and correct conclusions – for you. If you persevere,
you will find the right place / right ministry for yourself and won't
have to worry then overly about evaluating all manner of ministries with
which you have nothing seriously to do. The "fruit test" is designed to
help you find the right place in the first place, not to pass judgment
upon various and sundry ministries which are not the right ones for you,
even if in their own way they are doing what the Lord has commissioned
them to do (to one degree or another).
We are all different, and the Lord has provided for those differences,
including differences in motivation and degree of commitment. So as I
repeatedly say, Ichthys is not for everyone (I also recommend
Bible Academy), and I
wouldn't dream of saying that there aren't other ministries out there
which are doing the Lord's will. John MacArthur is a Christian who is
serious about the Bible and its truth and certainly has a large
following of genuine believers (and even a seminary); my issues with him
and his ministry have to do with (many) points of his doctrine to which
I do not subscribe. It's not for me to say how big or small his reward
will be at the judgment seat of Christ. But I do know that every point
of truth is important, because truth builds on truth but error detracts
from the stability of the whole edifice. So I can't recommend that
ministry, but I'm certainly not condemning it.
Keeping you in my prayers daily.
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #27:
[omitted]
Response #27:
A long, long time ago, when I was living for myself rather than for the
Lord and had not yet benefitted from His strong hand turning me around,
I remember a conversation with a stranger of clearly Irish background.
We were talking about something or other having to do with the troubles,
and I asked, "Are you a Christian?" He replied, "Well I am a Catholic so
I certainly hope I am a Christian!" To which I responded as to how then
I didn't see any reason for controversy between Protestants and
Catholics. But of course I have learned since that one can be a
Presbyterian and NOT be saved and that it is apparently very difficult
to be an RC and BE saved – and that anyone in either such group if saved
is MOST unlikely to be a mature believer on the spiritual advance (in
fact that seems to me now nigh on impossible).
So to your point about "minor" vs. "major" doctrines, all truth is
important, and those who are wrong on some truths tend to be wrong about
others – and not really concerned about the truth at all. Because anyone
who really IS concerned about the truth will be led by the Lord into all
the truth he/she can handle, and quickly too, when he/she finally gets
around to caring about it. In other words, there are members of churches
and denominations who are so purely out of traditionalism, and many of
these defend their "doctrines" purely for that same reason. But anyone
who is really saved and who really wants to find the truth will
undoubtedly be led by the Lord OUT of that sort of dead end organization
and approach.
As to joining / attending church and staying engaged with other
Christians, that all depends on each person's "druthers" and also most
particularly their personal ministries. You seem to have been called to
have a very direct apologetic ministry and from your reports you are
dispensing a great deal of useful truth to various and sundry who
otherwise would not be exposed to it at all absent your efforts. For
those without that calling – and at lesser levels of spiritual advance
than yourself – being a communicant at a "church" where there is little
true and much false being taught has the potential of doing more harm
than good. Paul started with the synagogues – and always left them when
push came to shove. Based on that parallel and basic spiritual common
sense I don't think we can reduce this to a principle. It's a matter of
personal application which depends on a great many factors – and so much
so that I for one would not call a person's application "right" or
"wrong" unless I saw great damage being done. In your case, I know I've
never told you that I thought you'd be better off not engaging in this
way. In fact, to be honest, it never even occurred to me! But I have
told others or suggested strongly that they were in the wrong place –
when I saw that they were not only in the wrong place but in spiritual
danger because of it.
Keeping you and your family in my prayers daily, my friend.
In Jesus Christ the Lord,
Bob L.
Question #28:
Hi Bob,
This week's postings are as ever very interesting and helpful. The
charismatic type emails are all too familiar to me now as you know.
There doesn't seem to be much in that department that I haven't heard of
or seen for myself or through ___'s involvement in it.
One of the women "pastors" at that church once gave a sermon on the
filling of the Spirit and told the congregation that sometimes we "leak"
and so have to be filled up again. And being filled up again in their
book I'm guessing would be something like laying on of hands, being
slain in the Spirit etc. etc. I'd never heard that one before - that we
"leak!"
When you talked to one correspondent about the desire on the part of so
many Christians for "having fun" my friend's church whose founder was
John Wimber (Vineyard movement) continue to use the phrases he used to
say that "everyone gets to play" we all "get to do the stuff". In other
words the "stuff" that Jesus and the disciples did like healings,
working miracles, prophecy, speaking in tongues, casting out demons etc.
So they actually say they get to "play". This came to mind when you said
in your response that so many prefer the "childish things".
It's helpful to read and to learn how you respond to some of the
correspondents you get. (Responses #5, 6 and 7)
I like the way you said in your last email to me that, "It's more fun to
sing in the pub with your mates than to drink a pint at home listening
to the stereo". It's a great way of putting it! It made me think about
something else I was going to ask you ages ago. A couple of years ago
___ invited me to one of their church services. They have a bar in the
church and after the service people can go and buy a drink. I'm not
legalistic or anything like that. I know there's nothing wrong with a
Christian drinking alcohol in moderation and that it's drunkenness that
is sinful. What felt a bit weird to me at the time is that after the
service __ introduced me to the pastor who had given the sermon that
night. He had a bottle of beer in his hand and while he spoke to me all
I could smell was the beer on his breath. Like I say, I know it's not
sinful but it transported me right back to my younger days when I was
away from the Lord and used to go to the pub for a few drinks. It felt
to me like it was just something else they were trying to do to make the
church as much like the world as possible just to get the people in.
It got me thinking that this is a church and by doing this could they
actually be putting a stumbling block in a weaker or less mature
Christian's way? (Matthew 18:5-7) Say if the Christian speaking to the
pastor had been a recovering alcoholic (not me by the way!) and that's
all they could smell on their pastor's breath then that could make it
very difficult for them not to crave that beer they know they really
shouldn't have. That one beer that's going to put them back onto the
path of destruction if they start drinking again. I know that this could
happen anywhere for that Christian but to come across it in church where
you need all the help and support from them to me seems to be a really
bad idea.
Is it right, Bob that mature Christians should not only know their
freedom in Christ but also stand ready, in love to forgo their rights at
times for the good of others. (1 Corinthians 8:9) Abstain for the sake
of love for others. It is a sin to cause another person to stumble into
alcohol addiction or drunkenness.
They do what they do in these churches and that's up to them. I'm not
judging, God alone judges but could you please help me to know if my
thoughts on this are right. Purely for my own learning and understanding
of the truth as far as putting stumbling blocks in the way of other
Christians.
Thanks for your prayers for me, Bob. I felt dodgy yesterday again but
better today!
In Jesus our dear Lord and Saviour
Response #28:
"Leaking" and "playing" – good grief! One would think that any believer
with an ounce of spiritual common sense would hear the Spirit saying
"run for it!" when confronting such tripe. But thanks for the insight!
In one of the mega-churches here in town they have a beautiful atrium
and they sell thing therein, including a Starbucks as I recall (it's
been a LONG while). That definitely rubbed me the wrong way (e.g.,
Mk.11:17). But I have to say, after some of those sermons I endured, a
couple of pints afterwards would have helped mightily. In all
seriousness, yes I think having a bar and serving alcohol in a church is
so problematic on the surface even without discussing it that it ought
to be a non-starter. As to pastors drinking, see the link:
"Should Christian
leaders refrain from drinking in public?"
Sorry to hear about the continued dodginess. I am keeping you in my
prayers on this.
Your friend in Jesus Christ our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #29:
Hello Dr. Luginbill (and dear ___):
I have meant to write you and our community for quite some time, but as
we all know - sometimes life and curveballs derail our best laid plans.
The first thing I must mention is that the Lord has blessed us with a
beautiful and healthy grand-daughter (born end of June 2021). She is
priceless, precious, and a true blessing! I prayed over her even before
the knowledge that she was on her way. I have given her to the Lord -
and have committed myself, should the Lord have planned for me, to help
guide her into the Millenium kingdom. If our good God has different
plans for her or me then I know FULL WELL that she will be with me for
all eternity in the presence of the Lord. Perfect peace! I have attached
a picture - and who can't help but smile?
I was quite confused and concerned about the amount of ink spent in
Ichthys on the vaccine debate. Long-story short, I did not choose to
take it - and I trusted the Lord without it. I then found myself taking
it (for viable reasons that presented themselves) - and I trusted the
Lord when taking it. Period. How is this not the end of the subject? We
either trust the Lord or we do not.
The only hill one should find themselves willing to die on is for the
gospel of Jesus Christ.
I recall a time years ago when I found myself anxious when having to
fly. I had flown for years prior extensively as a professional model,
yet after having my first son I started to have panic attacks when
needing to leave him and fly to bookings. I found myself a basket case -
there was more to lose when flying, right? A young son left behind
should something go wrong. Finally, the Lord in His wisdom and goodness
and gentle voice told me, "It's not the how - it's the when. Your life
is in my hands and has been written by me." I had such perfect peace
thereafter. SO true! It's not the how - it's the when. This cannot
change. God's perfect plan equals perfect peace.
Yes, I experienced some adverse reactions with taking the vaccine. Did I
stop trusting the Lord? No. BTW - for perspective, I practice holistic
remedies - and I am not prone to over the counter or prescribed
medications and have not/did not vaccinate my children (now adults).
That statement alone can open a whole other can of worms here. Not
intended to. Point being; do I trust the Lord or do I not? Do you trust
the Lord or do you not?
One of my sons took the vaccine and went blind for almost ten minutes.
Paramedics were called. My son said, "Mom, I have no way to explain it
but I had perfect peace. I didn't panic. I felt such peace that it would
all be okay." And it was. Should this news "scare" others? No, this
should be a reminder that whether we lean to the left or lean to the
right the Lord will be there. This vaccine is NOT a Biblical, scriptural
issue - but a personal choice based on modern medicine. Drive a car? Do
not drive a car? Enlist in the army? Do not enlist in the army? Take
legal meds? Do not take legal meds? Either way - God is there.
On another note, if you recall we were hit by the winter storm that
flooded and damaged our entire home. Something that should have taken
5-6 weeks to repair took 4-5 months. The contractor finally finished and
installed the last of the baseboards. We were so happy to be done. We
took a trip to visit our children and grandchildren in TN and to
celebrate a birthday. I returned early with one of our son's and we
walked into our home completely submerged under water - again!?!? It was
devastating! I was overwhelmed - I cried. My son jumped in to help me
bail water - and my husband did everything he could to help mitigate
loses while in VA (states away - visiting his folks after our trip to
TN). Long-story short; the contractor penetrated a pipe with the nail
gun when installing the baseboards ("the finishing touches after 5
months"). It was a slow leak that ruptured from the pressure while we
were away. It is what it is - and God is good. I settled it in my spirit
and we are in the midst of repairs.
On another note, my heart is so heavy. I have tried to engage others in
discussions regarding the Tribulation and the rapture / false doctrine
that so many have swallowed hook, line, and sinker. In addition, I am at
a complete loss when looking at the landscape and carnage of the church
visible today. Our company keeps our pulse and thumbprint on a database
and relationship with over 330k churches nationwide - the stunning and
staggering and sad state of affairs in regards to today's church boggles
our minds and brings us to our knees - grieving. We are finding
ourselves in a very isolated population. Keeping our distance seems the
best approach - yet not wanting to miss our opportunity to grow up
others. I see that my mission field is in those closest to me.
Praying for you, our worldwide community, and keeping my eyes on Our
Hope, Our King, The Perfector of Our Faith.
" 11Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting
on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and
makes war. 12His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many
diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13He
is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called
is The Word of God. 14And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen,
white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15From his mouth
comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will
rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of
the wrath of God the Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has a
name written, King of kings and Lord of lords (makes me cry every time.
Hallelujah!)
In the name of our Lord and Savior and Coming King, Jesus Christ -
Response #29:
It is apparently a pattern that believers continue to receive testing
along the same lines. I had a Christian friend one time who continued to
get into auto accidents – which were by their nature very clearly not
the fault of her being a bad driver. There are other examples of this
sort of thing I have observed in the past as well. That said, I'm
distraught to hear of your second flood! And how ironic that it was
caused by "the finishing touch" and not noticed until after it was too
late.
But I do rejoice at the way you are passing this test, my friend! God
has a way of showing us that HE is the only thing, the only One, we can
depend on down here. Everything else is "shifting sand", no matter how
much love and care and effort we may pour into it. Therefore whatever we
do for Him is always worthwhile because it will last forever; in terms
of everything else, we have to maintain a certain level of flexibility,
remembering that it is only dust – and may turn to dust far sooner than
we had imagined. So, again, good for you, my friend, that you are
handling this deep disappointment with such grace!
I certainly agree with you entirely on the vaccine issue – and hope I've
expressed as much in recent weeks. I appreciate your perspective and
additional information.
In terms of the church-visible, this era is not called "Laodicea" for no
reason. It does remind me of many times in Israel's past where the
believers (many of them must have been so) were not interested in the
Lord or His truth for the most part. Still, we do also have to be
careful not to "pull an Elijah" and assume that we are the "only ones
left" when the Lord has "reserved for Himself" others too who have "not
bowed the knee to Baal". Our job is to grow as much as we personally
can, pass the tests that come our way and thus continue to progress with
Him, trusting Him no matter what happens, and help other do likewise
through whatever ministries we are given to accomplish – just as you are
indeed doing. As you note, there's plenty of work to do "close to home".
Congratulations on your new granddaughter!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
p.s., would you mind me posting this (absent names and photos and such)?
Question #30:
Thank you for the good reminder, Dr. Luginbill – around the globe and
within current pews are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Keep
praying, loving, and preparing for the days ahead!
Yes, please feel free to share.
The home repairs are coming along - and my husband has a pep in his step
pulling out the nail gun and stud finder to aid in the process. If
anyone will monitor to make sure no more pipes are hit - it's him!
We hear that Texas is expecting another winter like last year ( so the
epic 100-year streak between storms is now possibly two years
back-to-back). Hopefully all of our newfound knowledge from the
experience will help us prepare for what may come (sort of like the
benefits of spiritual boot camp - we may not like it in the midst, but
it certainly helps prepare us for what may/will come).
I was glad to read that you are seeing some sense of normal on campus.
Praying that the required vaccinated percentages don't keep shifting and
that you can finally go mask-free. It is so incredibly stifling!
We are praying for you, our community of believers, and for those with
special prayer requests on Ichthys. It is so comforting to read and know
that there are others who value Ichthys (God's Word, solid teaching,
you) as much as we do. What a blessing! Thank you, Dr. Luginbill.
Response #30:
Thanks! I appreciate it.
On the prediction, if it's any consolation, those predictions usually
end up just the opposite – so maybe it'll be a mild winter.
Keeping you in my prayers – thanks for yours!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
[update on masks and vaccines: U of L is now at 87.4% vaccinated and STILL under the mask mandate; also, the Provost "shared" with us the other day that U of L is "considering" making vaccination mandatory in line with the administration's fiat inasmuch as U of L is a "US government contractor".]
Question #31:
Okay now that I have some emotional distance, I was wrong to state that
I thought that someone who engaged in that kind of sin should be barred.
The only thing that matters is what God says and I don't see in the
Bible that someone with that kind of sin in their past is barred (I mean
assuming they repented of course). The only thing that might go in that
direction is 'above reproach' in that maybe one could argue that one's
past can call that into question, but I do think that one is tenuous and
iffy. So I was wrong on that,
I do wonder if that no one stays at a church more than a few years
nowadays, even for some the pastors (it depends on the church of
course), would mitigate some of the more minor issues. It is hard to
control much of other people with a revolving door. And maybe some of
the teaching I should ignore wouldn't be that different from cultural
background noise I already ignore.
And, No. The forum is not a substitute for the face to face social.
Thanks anyway though. Please take care.
Response #31:
I do understand it's not the same thing, but some people have made some
good friends there.
It's a blessing that we CAN leave bad churches and are not bound, as the
RCs are supposed to be, to whatever church is closest to us
geographically. But the real problem is the people who go to church. In
the end, since they are paying the bills and doing the work, they get
what they want, what they REALLY want . . . whatever that is. In the
late innings in Laodicea that tends to be music, and lots of it, rites
and rituals, the more the merrier, emotionalism and pseudo-miracles,
legalism or antinomianism, sermonizing and specious testimonials –
anything and everything except the detailed, solid, orthodox teaching of
the Bible in sufficient quantity and depth to grow.
If you do find some place like that, please let us all know!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #32:
You make a lot of points that I wholeheartedly agree with. I think a
critical point you make is the audience needs to "have confidence that
what you are telling them is based on the Bible." The internet certainly
has a wonderful advantage of being able to link to all sorts of quotes
and footnotes. Whereas, in the in-person setting one has to "pick their
spots" if they are going to go on a tangent away from the scripture
being directly analyzed. It's not enjoyable for an audience to be
flipping back and forth through their Bibles constantly -- no matter how
interested in the truth they may be. With a book like Revelation, it
might be best to stick to its direct text as a framework for a teaching
setting, with everybody following along with that as a basis, and
occasionally flipping to another passage when it proves a critical point
or in the case of Daniel, staying on a specific chapter for a while.
This obviously will not accomplish as in-depth of study as you provide
on Ichthys, but I think that's almost unavoidable when teaching
in-person.
I appreciate your in-depth answers; you cleared some key things up for
me, especially with the praying for strengthened faith response. Thanks!
-- you are in my prayers daily as well!
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Response #32:
This is a very involved question to which there really is no specific answer.
I've thought about parts of it all my life (there is much in BB 6B which is
reflective of that; link). Two
quick observations: a) don't worry about "driving people away"; the truth ALWAYS
drives people away – and it's meant to do so, separating the wheat from the
chaff. Working to retain people – at the expense of the truth – has resulted in
the denominations and churches we have today. If you are ready to teach, the
Lord will bring you the listeners at the right time and in the right way.
We say in the military that "no plan survives contact with the enemy" – and yet
we plan. It's good to have a plan, but all a plan really is is a rubric for
thinking about things you're going to want or need to do. Once you bump into a
real situation, not being willing to change things around is almost always a
mistake. It's the goal that's important (in this case, teaching people the
truth), not the specific means meant to get there.
So in essence, if you think it'd be good to teach X first, then plan to teach X
first. If it turns out that those needing the teaching already understand X,
change to Y and Z; if, as is more likely, they don't even yet understand A, B or
C, then you'll probably have to postpone X. But in general, teaching would look
like you getting up in front of a group of people and explaining biblical
principles to them, exegeting scriptures where need be so that they can both
understand and have confidence that what you are telling them is based on the
Bible. If you're doing that, you'll be OK.
Then said he unto them, "Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old."
Matthew 13:52 KJV
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.