Eschatology Issues CXVII

Question #1:

Hi Dr L!

I am almost recovered so yay. Also I am getting a lot out of the Study of the Spirit. Because I don't know if you remember, but before I pushed back on that church is to be centered on Biblical teaching (I mean not to be contrary, but because I couldn't see it, which doesn't mean it isn't so either). But the way you explain it with the verses does seem to make Bible teaching central at the top at least. So anyway thanks for the study! To be honest, when I read your writing, I feel like I am reading in a top college level class or something, and for free, so it is really a feeling! So thank you.

This isn't really related but I used to bemoan that I was in a bad state during my education years, and could not take advantage (though I am blessed with all these things now). But I was glancing at some commentators, as I do out of their interesting perspectives, and apparently at some elite colleges there is harassment and endangering of Jewish students. And three of the Ivy League ones' presidents went to Congress and would not simply say that calls for genocide was harassment on their campuses. And I saw that a number of high profile people were outraged at that. There was this one billionaire alumni who really got into it. And I just thought, first wow, imagine being in that position, like a high profile lawyer (this other Jewish lawyer guy I follow sometimes), and suddenly finding yourself saying 'no one from Harvard' when you hire. Also I guess it is a good thing I did not go, because it would be rough on me even though it has been over a decade.

Anyway, please be careful because there is danger of all sorts everywhere out there now. And the old rules of how to survive by are just out the window and it is just chaos (it seems from my pov).

PS: The only thing is that on this part you wrote:

"On the other hand, the examples of the "fruit of the Spirit" given above are equally easy to discern as God's will...acting out of "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, uprightness, faith, humility, self-control" will always be a positive response to the Spirit's guidance."

The thing is that if you grew up in abusive environment, you are 1) missing the foundation other's have for this to make sense (in other words, yes for those people with parents would give them a piece of bread and not a snake if they asked, yes this (that positive list to do) would be easy to follow. And (those people in those bad backgrounds) 2) have a twisted foundation where they would calculate about their parent's giving them a snake if they breathed wrong.

[omitted examples of abuse]

I have been trying a long time to rebuild that foundation. The best I have so far is that the verse 'love your neighbor as yourself' does indeed have the 'as yourself' part. And in many verses in the Bible, God presupposes and even seems to encourage people to seek their own good and welfare. I still struggle on this though. I hope I make sense.

Response #1:

Thanks for the good words.

On the "foundation" question, it is certainly true that some people have been given a better start in life than others. It is also true that many who were given a good start messed it up entirely – the entire exodus generation for example (Joshua and Caleb being the only exceptions). And on the other hand, through the power of God and the ministry of the Spirit, some who had very difficult starts and lots of obstacles to overcome have turned out very well, an honor to Jesus Christ and a help to His Church . . . you, for example.

The Lord knows all of these things, and I am sure that He will take everything into account on the day when we are evaluated for what we did down here, advantages and disadvantages all.

"For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."
Luke 12:48b NKJV

On the rising anti-Semitism, that really is scary. Just another sign of the degenerate times we are in where all moral compasses seem to have lost their bearings – except for the small remnant who love the Lord. The beast is going to be Jewish (in his human part) and a strong supporter of Israel (until he completely shifts at the mid-point of the Tribulation and seeks to destroy her). So it will be very interested to see how these things play out. That is probably where we who can read things because of our facility with the truth should be at present, namely, emotionally dis-investing, being surprised by nothing, watching to see how things develop, and doing our best to prepare spiritually for what's coming. If we do that, while I can't say we'll "enjoy" the Tribulation (anymore than we are enjoying the run up to it), we will be able to keep everything in a balanced perspective, remembering that God the Father is working it all out together for good for us who love Him, that Jesus Christ is in perfect control of all that is happening, and that the Spirit is perfectly capable of guiding and sustaining us through whatever may come – and our Lord will be returning at the end of it all. Hallelujah for that!

In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior, for whose return we breathlessly wait,

Bob L.

Question #2:

Hi Dr Luginbill,

So the book I got came in, and it looks like it is the text of the Sinaiticus (not photocopied, just retyped) with a lot of symbols (just glanced) like check marks and phrases in parentheses and...So you know how there is the underscore: _ ? It is that but above a word or phrase instead of underlining/underscoring (and there are other symbols). It does explain a few, but I will look closer tonight. So it is called a collation. Is that different from a facsimile (excepting that it is rewritten (I mean retyped) instead of photocopied into a new book?

Okay so one of the first pages is titled "Advertisement" and says "The following pages comprise a collation and exact...text of Stephen's Greek New Testament of 1550...with Tischendorf's larger and smaller editions of the Codex Sinaiticus, compared with each other." The writer of this page names a Rev Christopher Wordsworth, DD ..."....first engaged my services to collate the Codex Sinaiticus for his forthcoming new edition of the Greek New Testament, and afterwards allowed me to take the stereotyped plates of the printed pages"

Oh this page was written in 1863.

On the back of the book it says "Reprint of the Original, First Published in 1864."

Only if it isn't a bother, can you tell me what exactly I have (if that tells you)? If not, don't worry about it.

I am still watching the Harvard thing because education and scholarship are large things I love, and I even didn't go into fields partly because I did not think I could do it justice.

And I am watching this woman who even their Harvard board says copied someone else's whole paragraph verbatim in her work, and instead of calling it plagiarism, they call it 'improper citation.' Oh my poor dear elite scholars. So a 15 year old might be suspended for this kind of thing, but for you, it it ok. Just an improper citation. Well students everywhere plagiarizing should just say they are copying your elite leadership. You know, I actually had respect for you, and now it is wavering, wavering, and I feel more like how your average less educated American feels about you. (Not you, Dr L I have so much respect for you, and other scholars who actually do good work, or at least try. I mean about them). I mean goodness, I could do a better job, I should be a Harvard scholar!

So some of them are trying to say that, well, back in 1990 Harvard's plagiarism policies may have been different. And I am thinking, I remember really young how strict that stuff was, and that would have been ~2004 maybe. The policy may not have been written, but I don't buy that the idea behind it wasn't present at the institution. It does not make sense for a grade school kid to be held to a higher standard than the best scholars we apparently have. And 14 years doesn't seem that long for a shift like that. I don't know, you would know more than me.

Response #2:

A collation is something that was popular in the 19th century when these mss. were just getting out and getting known. Essentially, a scholar would go through the ms. and compare it to a standard printed edition of the NT in Greek, noting the differences along with other points of interest that would be nice to know for those without liberty to see the ms. itself.

I have a photocopy of Scrivener's collation of Sinaiticus, valuable to me not because of the main original purpose (after all, not only do I have a photocopy of the facsimile for the epistles, but now the ms. is online at the link), but because he weighs in on the correctors' "hands". That is to say, there are a lot of editorial emendations in Aleph. Some seem to have been done by the scribe himself (correcting a mistake almost contemporaneously), some by a near contemporaneous editor (i.e., someone charged with making sure that the copy was accurate), but many done by later individuals who were possibly trying to assimilate the ms. to other mss. It can be difficult to tell which is which. Kirsopp Lake who published the facsimile has a lot to say about this (in a separate publication) but others, such as Tischendorf who discovered the ms. and Scrivener above, have different takes on this issue. I have my own opinion often but paleography is a specialty, so it's good to have all the input you can get when there is a question.

So it sounds like you have an earlier collation. I haven't ever used this one and, as I say, the value to me would be comments about the editorial changes and marks in the ms. rather than noting differences from a standard edition (since, as I say, we can all now see the ms. for ourselves online).

Plagiarism is becoming a hotter issue for academia with the rise of AI. AIs are capable of doing a fairly good job of giving boilerplate answers to essay type questions, but for anyone who knows what to look for it's still obvious . . . as is plagiarism (in my opinion). The fact that this person is getting away with it is no surprise since she's just one of a long series of those who have/are doing this or other things but getting away with it . . . because they are on "the right side".

Blessedly, we who belong to Jesus Christ have no doubt about receiving an absolutely fair, comprehensive and impartial evaluation when we stand before Him on that day. That should fill us with confidence . . . and also trepidation:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
2nd Corinthians 5:10-11 NIV

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #3:

Shalom Bob,

Hope all is well. I have a quick Greek language question. Is the following list of definitions correct for the Greek word “kardia” which is used in Matt. 12:40 and translated as “heart”?

1. heart (as the source of emotion, love, etc.)
2. mind
3. stomach
4. any hollow vessel
5. center or inner part: pith (of wood), depth (of the sea)

Your kind response will be most appreciated.

Until His Trumpet Sounds,

Response #3:

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Matthew 12:40 NIV

The "heart of the earth" here is metaphorical, meaning, the depths of it (just as the physical heart is the innermost part of the body).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #4:

Shalom Bob,

Thank you for your kind response. The part of Matt. 12:40 that I am having difficulty with is the phrase, "in the heart of the earth". In all of the 156 plus NT uses of the greek "kardia" all imply a mental/spiritual aspect unlike what is suggested in the, "heart of the earth" kardia.

While I know this phrase most likely to be metaphorical - could it equally have a literal/physiological application as well? Hence, "kardia" defined as a "stomach or a hollow vessel" equatable to the "belly, stomach, hollow cavity, etc., of Jonah's whale?

You kind response will be most appreciated.

Until His Trumpet Sounds,

Response #4:

As mentioned, "heart" is being used here as a metaphor, i.e., meaning the deepest depths of the earth. And we know what that means from elsewhere in scripture, namely, the subterranean part of Hades, paradise, which Luke calls "Abraham's bosom" (Lk.16:22ff.).

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:42-43 NIV

This is discussed at 1Pet.3:18-20 (see the link: "The Descent of our Lord into Paradise"). That is where our Lord spent the prophesied three days between dismissing His spirit and His resurrection.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #5:

Shalom Bob,

Thank you for your kind response.

I agree that the greek "kardia" used in Matt. 12:40 and translated as "heart" is indeed metaphoric.

Likewise, I absolutely LOVE your suggested linked article regarding Jesus' spiritual decent into the lower regions of the earth (i.e. Paradise) while His physical body remained sealed within the tomb.

What you have written regarding Jesus and the repentant thief on the cross - who was promised a descension into Paradise with Jesus subsequent to their agonizing deaths, should declare an unrefutable end to the doctrine of "soul sleep".

Very well written...

Until His Trumpet Sounds,

Response #5:

My pleasure!

On that last topic, you might check the following link too: "Soul Sleep"

Question #6:

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.
Luke 24:36-43

It appears to me that this section is a later added literary device inserted to put arguments for Jesus having a physical flesh and blood resurrected body, rather than the circulating idea at that time, that his followers had seen a ghost or spirit. Do you agree?

To me this argument (of a completely physical body) which prevails to this day, is not consistent with the verses which suggest he walked through the wall of a locked room, he went unrecognised in their presence until he chose to reveal himself and finally he was able to be 'lifted up and a cloud take him' from the disciples sight. Acts 1. Do you agree?

With Kind Regards, questing for the Truth

Response #6:

There is no question that this passage you reference is part of scripture. It is present in all of the major mss. (and I don't know of any, even much later Byzantine ones, from which it is missing).

It probably is true that the Spirit saw to Luke's inclusion of this event to help us understand the resurrection. But seeing as how it is parallel to John 20:19-23, we have all of the same information elsewhere as well.

As to "a physical body" being "not consistent" with the events you mention, Paul says the following:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1st Corinthians 15:42-44 NKJV

Without any doubt the spiritual body (pneumatikos) is for our Lord and will be for us believers different from the present natural body (psychikos). But it is still a body, not a spirit. As can be seen from the examples you give, the spiritual body has many capabilities which are far greater than the present one. Much to look forward to!

There is a great deal to this subject. Here are some of the major links to where the issue is discussed at Ichthys:

The Resurrection (in Peter #20)

The Resurrection of the Lamb's Bride (in CT 5)

The Chronology of the Resurrection (in BB 4A)

Resurrection vs. Resuscitation

In Jesus our dear Savior,

Bob Luginbill

Question #7:

Ok fair point. Not added later but still is a literary device to make the argument that Jesus was not appearing like some sort of ghost.

My point is that there are fundamentalists who try to insist that one has to believe that Jesus rose from the dead in his flesh and blood body. The main argument being that he must have because there was no body in the tomb.

I am not making these points to be argumentative and I agree with what you have said about Him having a spiritual body. However my worry is that fundamentalists insist on the physical body belief and this is not completely True. This simplistic teaching could well be stopping thousands of people from accessing the Kingdom of Heaven through the risen Christ.

In addition it does not say in the Gospels that Thomas actually did put his hands in Jesus's wounds. I do not think he did as Jesus clearly tells Mary not to cling onto him as he has not yet Ascended.

Again seems pedantic but could be vital for some people who in my opinion have been forced to believe statements that are not the complete Truth.

I checked in with a friend of mine who still goes to a Baptist church as it was a long time ago for me. Yes they do believe and insist on those 2 things and she refused to ask her Pastor about it, so I left them to it.

Thank you for replying and for the links.

With kind regards, questing for the Truth

Response #7:

Re: "literary device", I'm OK with calling it that, as long as that doesn't infer that it's not an absolutely correct description of what actually happened. In my appreciation of divine inspiration, the Spirit used the personalities and abilities of the individuals given to pen scripture, even as He guided them perfectly to compose the exact message determined (for more on this: in BB 7: "The Nature, Perfection and Inspiration of the Bible").

Re: "rose from the dead in his flesh and blood body", I will allow that many who claim to be "Bible believing" don't bother to read carefully what the Bible actually says, so in terms of this quote, we do find Paul saying very explicitly that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1Cor.15:50). What he means by that is illuminated in the context of the passage just cited in 1st Corinthians where he describes the "resurrection" of those who have not yet died, that is, believers who are still alive when the Lord returns (cf. 1Thes.4:13-18):

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1st Corinthians 15:50-53 NKJV

So there is a "change" which is described as being transformed into an "incorruptible" body different from our present corruptible ones. Jesus said that He had "flesh and bone" while Paul says "flesh and blood", making a distinction (in both cases) between the present psychikos body and the coming pneumatikos one. Never again being subject to death and corruption is a very big difference. Paul "fleshes out" some of the other differences in the same chapter. Here is my expanded translation of the operative verses:

(35) Now somebody will no doubt say, “In what manner do the dead rise? And with what sort of body do they come back?” (36) Use a little common sense! When you plant a seed, it doesn't “come back to life” unless the seed itself is first destroyed, does it? (37) And what you put in the ground is not the actual plant which later sprouts, but an “empty shell”, so to speak, of the wheat or of whatever you are planting. (38) God then transforms this seed into a plant in accordance with His creative plan, giving each specific seed its own unique structure. (39) [As it is with seeds and plants, the same is true of animate bodies.] For in an analogous way, not all bodies are the same. Obviously, the bodies of men are different from the bodies of cattle, the bodies of birds are different from the bodies of fish, (40) and, just as obviously, bodies capable of dwelling in heaven are different from the bodies we occupy here on earth. Moreover the splendor of our heavenly bodies will transcend that of our earthly ones. (41) [Nor should we imagine that all heavenly bodies will possess the same degree of splendor.] After all, the radiance of the sun and of the moon and of stars is different in each case, and even the stars differ amongst themselves in glory. (42) So it is with the resurrection of the dead. The body sown is corruptible, the one raised incorruptible. (43) The body sown is dishonorable, the one raised glorious. The body sown is weak, the one raised powerful. (44) The body sown is suited to physical life, the one raised to spiritual life. If there is a physical body (and there patently is), then there is also a spiritual one. (45) For as it has been written that “Adam, the first man, became a physical being, possessing life”, so Christ, the last Adam, became a spiritual being, bestowing life. (46) However it is not the spiritual body, but the physical body which comes first, and the spiritual body follows. (47) The first man was earthly, being taken from the ground. The second Man is heavenly. (48) And as was the earthly man, so also are we of the earth. And as is the heavenly Man, so also shall we be when we too take on heavenly form. (49) For just as we have born the image of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the image of the heavenly Man.
1st Corinthians 15:35-49

Between this passage and all of the other passages on the resurrection in scripture (see prior links), we have more than enough information, in my view, to put together a clear picture of what it will be like (although, obviously, until we experience it, that knowledge will of necessity be more limited than we would like).

Beloved, we are already the children of God, but what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He is revealed [in glory], we will be like Him, that we shall see Him exactly like He is.
1st John 3:2

In a nutshell, the resurrection body seems to combine the best of the present, material body of human beings and the angelic body (they are spirits, but they are finite; see the link). Angels, we might say, have a non-corporeal materiality, while at present we human beings have a corporeal materiality which will be transformed in resurrection to a spiritual corporeality (that is the essential point behind Paul's characterization of the two as psychikos and pneumatikos respectively, "fit to the soul/psyche/nephesh" vs. "fit to the spirit"). Because the body is "spiritual", does not mean it is not a body, and that is clear from our Lord's eating and drinking and doing all manner of things which spirits cannot do; and because it is a "body" does not mean that it will have the limitations of the present one, as our Lord's ascension and other miraculous actions after resurrection also show. The new body will be different – better in all manner of wonderful ways.

Again, this is just an overview of an extensive doctrinal topic. Please refer to the links previously given for the details as taught by this ministry.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #8:

Thank you for your detailed answer. I agree with most of what you have presented. It seems Jesus did rise from the 'dead' in that his physical body was no longer breathing pumping blood etc etc. It seems he was in a state of transition, hence cautioning Mary not to cling to him, being able to move around in a timeless way, appear suddenly inside a room etc. He was leaving his physical body behind and transitioning into a new State ( in simplistic terms preparing to take his seat at the Right Hand of God).

I suppose where I differ slightly is in your absolute faith that every word in the Bible has been Divinely inspired, guided to be there and so on. This is because the Bible as we know it had to be put together years later on the orders of Constantine. The original manuscripts were circulating long before that. I suppose although it seems shocking to question the existing Bible as the complete Word of God we have to bear in mind that some verses are put at the bottom as footnotes for example. Also the Apocropha no longer appears in most Bibles these days. Finally there are other manuscripts that were excluded by the decision of men and not perhaps God?
I honour your faith in it though and can see one has to be careful not to erode the message in the Bible and also in the main the Holy Spirit can speak through it if one is open.

I appreciate your time in answering and yes I am actively reading your content on your website.
I have confined this discussion to the 4 gospels just for simplicity and because I wanted to just concentrate on the recording of what happened after Jesus was placed in the tomb. But yes of course I am aware of all of Paul's teachings too.

A short rider : how can you say that it has to be an absolutely correct description of what actually happened? There are loads of discrepancies in the 4 gospels, where the writers are describing for example the same events but have different numbers of people healed and so on. I am sure you know. The broiled fish, in what I am saying is a literary device in Luke, does not belong in that room it belongs on the shores of Tiberius. The descriptions and records have human discrepancies and differences in them. I prefer to embrace the differences and piece it all together.

I think again it is fundamentalist Evangelicalism that insists everything in the Bible is a perfect record when it plainly is not. It is actually full of human discrepancies and I am happy with that, I think it adds not detracts from it.

Best Wishes questing for the Truth

Kind Regards

Response #8:

I've been at this a long time, and I can tell you with authority that there aren't any discrepancies in the Bible. Not, that is, in the actual text properly understood. If we start with the proposition that God is perfect and all powerful, it certainly makes sense that He is able to give us a true message, doesn't it? If we approach this "problem" with faith, in the end, our faith will be justified and validated. But without faith, we have nothing.

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.
Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV

Because there are differences in the gospels, e.g., does not mean that they are in factual disagreement. Some things may seem that way at first glance. Deep study always shows, eventually if not immediately, that these differences are in complete consistency. Many people are far too quick to assume that their superficial and immediate impressions are correct rather than trusting God that there is a perfect resolution (which there always is). For me, this passage says it all, where Peter proclaims the written Word superior even to his personal experience of visible miraculous revelation:

(16) For I did not follow concocted tales in making known to you the power and the coming return of our Lord, Jesus Christ, but was an eyewitness to His majesty. (17) For when He had received honor and glory from God the Father, these words sounded forth to Him from God's majestic glory: "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased." (18) And these words I myself heard as they were delivered from heaven, for I was with Him on the holy mountain (cf. Matt.17:1-8). (19) Yet I consider the prophetically inspired Word (i.e. the Bible) even more reliable (i.e., than what I saw with my own eyes). You too would do well to pay the closest attention to this [prophetically inspired Word], just as to a lamp shining in a dark place (cf. Ps.119:105), until the day dawns, and the Morning Star rises (i.e. the Living Word, Jesus Christ, returns), (20) pondering in your hearts this principle of prime importance: no single verse of prophetically inspired scripture has ever come into being as a result of personal reflection. (21) For true prophecy has never occurred by human will, but only when holy men of God have spoken under the direction and agency of the Holy Spirit.
2nd Peter 1:16-21

In terms of Constantine, if you are talking about the canon, God determined the canon; human beings merely acknowledged much later what He had provided (see the link in BB 7: "The Canon of Scripture"). If you are talking about the text, we have more than sufficient witnesses to that text with some evidence dating to within a generation of the original documents, to establish it without serious question (see the link in BB 7: "The Transmission of the Bible").  If you are talking about the way scripture is interpreted, indeed, this is a very large issue: the Bible is the truth, but its truth is not necessarily yielded up without effort and certainly, not without the requisite spiritual gifts and the ministry of the Spirit and the hard work necessary to teach the truth. It is a sad truth that after nearly two millennia, the church-visible has not properly availed itself of all the wonders scripture contains and has instead preferred incorrect traditions and inconsequential activities which have nothing to do with the truth. This lack of professionalism and commitment should not be laid at the Lord's feet. This is a problem entirely the responsibility of the Laodicean church-visible at present (see the link in BB 7: "Interpretation of the Bible").

On the resurrection, proper interpretation again is key to understanding these different events and statements. Some people look upon outlier passages or cruxes they don't understand as problems. For me, they are the truth-tellers which challenge us to tighten up our understanding, to research deeper, and to allow scripture to speak to us rather than declaring to it what it must mean.

Our Lord's statements to Thomas and Mary make clear why He told them to touch and "not keep clinging" to Him respectively. For Thomas, it was to dispel his doubt about the reality and physicality of the resurrection (so that he would "Stop doubting and believe!": Jn.20:27). For Mary, it was to dispel her understandable assumption that, now that He had risen, He was going to abide with them forever after (for He was going to ascend to the Father not many days hence: Jn.20:17). But all descriptions of our Lord's resurrection make it plain that His risen body was complete in its transformation (see the link, in BB 4A: "The Nature of the Resurrection"), excepting only the glorification He received after entering the Father's presence after His ascension (see the link in BB 4A: "Glorification"; cf. Jn.17:5; Rev.1:12-16).

In closing, I do think it is true that the present sloppiness and lack of diligence in theology and exegesis is at the heart of the issue you are having with "fundamentalist Evangelicalism". Happy to help with your "questing for the Truth", but progress there requires not only the truth but believing that truth once found. Knowledge even of the truth is of little use. "Full knowledge", actual truth believed and made real in the heart and useful to the Spirit, is what produces spiritual growth (link: in BB 4B: "Faith Epistemology").

Happy Thanksgiving!

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #9:

Hello

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail. I too have been at this a long time. Yes I know the difference between knowledge and Knowing and walking in the Spirit of Truth in my Heart. I perhaps should have been more mindful of the use of the word discrepancy. However there are differences. For example Matthew 8 v 28 which records 2 demoniacs and Mark 5 v2 and Luke 8 v27 which record 1 man. It seems otherwise to be the same event as they/he come out of the tombs and the spirits enter the swine herd?

Again Matthew 20 v29-34 has 2 blind men whereas Mark 10 v 46-42 and Luke 18 v 35-43 have 1 blind man. It seems like the same event as Jesus is in the area of Jericho? Although 2 accounts have Jesus leaving Jericho and 1 entering. Even so Mtth and Mark have Jesus in the same place.

So this is what I am saying. God is perfect but men are not. If everything was written exactly the same then it perhaps would show human interference at some later date when the New Testament was collated. I am glad it is a bit quirky. It does not detract from the message which shines through regardless of a few differences. I also like the fact that the disciples confusion and inability to understand Jesus until after His resurrection, has not been taken out either.
Thank you for the link. I will read it later.

I want to change the subject and ask you if you have tried adding 1335 days i.e. years Daniel 12 v12 to the year the Dome of the Rock was constructed? That could be ' The abomination that makes desolate' couldn't it. I thought the year 2026/2027 might interest you as it fits with your calculations. I haven't read all your writings yet so perhaps you have already?

Have a good Thanksgiving. I am from the UK so it is an ordinary weekend for us.

Best Wishes to you and your family

A quick rider. Has no one else seen the point that Jesus knew Thomas had doubted? Pretty miraculous I think as he was not in the room. I mean it. For me when I saw this I thought Thomas felt ashamed and he had no need to follow through no one would. He immediately knows that Jesus saw his heart. Now that is special.

Response #9:

In terms of the different accounts, rather than "quirky" a better word for it would be "guileless". These are not essays designed to twist the truth in order to persuade. They are honest firsthand accounts which, when blended with each other, accomplish through the Spirit the goal of giving us the full picture we require of what actually happened.

Thucydides famously observed that even eyewitnesses did not agree completely about events they had seen, and that as a result he had to labor to find "the truth" which he claims to present. Ancient historians generally accept that by and large he did so. If we can accept the essential truth of a single secular history written without the Holy Spirit, how much more should we not accept the veracity of four such histories written under His guidance and inspiration? Indeed, from what I know of ancient history (my secular craft) and history generally, it is the essential agreement of the four gospels – yet all the while clearly independent of each other as you note – which is mind-boggling. Impossible unless 1) they are true, and 2) inspired by God.

As to "two versus one" in various instances in Matthew and others, this is a good example of how I might relate an event after the fact versus how you or someone else might. We all would tend to give the gist of what we saw, but we would all also include details which struck us as significant and leave out others which seemed to us superfluous; but our judgment about that, namely, what to keep in and leave out, would be different so that it might seem to some that our accounts did not agree completely. That is exactly what we have in the gospels. The fact that Matthew has two demoniacs and the others do not does not mean that the others contradict him, merely that Matthew felt it important to include both and the others were led instead to focus only on the one who responded to the Lord. Through the blessing of having multiple accounts we receive additional perspectives that otherwise we would not get. There is a lot more about this sort of thing at the links, Doubling in Matthew; and Composition of the Gospels.

On the Dome of the Rock, all biblical prophecy as yet unfulfilled has to do with the Tribulation and the events following. The Church Age, our present age, is the mystery age (see the link), intercalated between the first and second advents. The long and short of this is that there are thus no prophetically significant dates or events happening now or having happened since the first Pentecost (the destruction of Jerusalem excepted as having one foot in the prior age). All attempts to find significance to dates and numbers in our day are thus misguided. Indeed, the present AD/BC calendar from which such calculations are commonly made did not even exist until the 5/6th century of our era. For the meaning of Daniel's 1,290 and 1,335 days, see the link (these have to do respectively with the regathering and purging of Israel after Christ's return).

Re: the rider. Indeed, this was miraculous. But certainly not the first example of it.

Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!” Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
John 1:47-51 NKJV

Thanks for the good wishes!

In Jesus,

Question #10:

Hello again,

Re the rider: Yes there are many examples of Jesus seeing the hearts of men and women. e.g. Jesus saying to the Pharisees/teachers of the law that they are like white washed tombs and the woman who says even the dogs eat the crumbs. My point was Thomas was touched by Jesus and (probably) not the other way around!

With regards your link to the Church age, I only came across your webpage 2 or 3 days ago. So I speed read all of your writings on the 4 ages then read your entry on Luke. Hence the communication. I am a bit confused at your reply argueing against calculating dates using BC and AD. 1.Because you do the same . I took a screenshot of your diagram showing the 4 ages on a BC AD timeline. 2. Although AD was obvs invented years after Christs time, the birth of Christ ( with our subsequent adjustments on the timeline) was by Divine intervention and in my opinion always going to be a pivotal point in the history of the human race. So prophecy is not hindered here. I got the date 2026-2027 because it took a year to build the Dome over the rock. You have 2026 on your timeline for the 4 ages, so I thought you might be interested in the coincidence ( there are no coincidences). But it is ok if you are not interested .

Best Wishes
Quick rider: I didn't reply to your 2 and 1s part because I think what you said is reasonable. In fact I am relieved that you say guileless. I don't want you to think I didn't value your response.

Response #10:

Thanks.

John 20:26-29 does not actually say that either touched either, but because our Lord gave Thomas the command to do so, and on account of Thomas' response, it is not unreasonable to suppose that he did as directed.

On BC/AD, yes of course I use the system we all use. My point is that there are many out there who want to say that, e.g., 1948 is a significant number based upon the number itself when the number is arbitrary, ostensibly based on the year of Christ's birth but slightly off. And in any case it is the cross and the resurrection and the following gift of the Spirit which begin the start of the Church Age, the age of the Spirit, as you note yourself.

Re: "so prophecy is not hindered here". Not saying that prophecy is "hindered". Prophecy is true. It also "is what it is" and none of OT prophecy "is" referring to any events which may take place during the mystery age of the Church (see the link). Therefore, finding prophetic significance in specific events and dates that have happened since Pentecost and before the commencement of the Tribulation is misguided and a misinterpretation of prophecy.

*It is interesting that one gets ca. 2026-27 by adding 1335 to 691/2 A.D., but my point here is twofold: 1) even if the days in Daniel 12 were referring to years (which they are not: days may refer to larger periods of time but not to years [n.b., Daniel 9 has "sevens/weeks" but not the word "days"]; see previous link), those numbers could not have meant anything to anyone until the sixth century when the BC/AD system of calculation was implemented and for that reason alone should be rejected; and 2) we would then be assigning a highly significant prophetic symbolism to a pagan activity, seemingly impossible unless we assume that the shrine is "the abomination which causes desolation" which it clearly cannot be (see the link). Finally, this interpretation would require us to assign an equally significant prophetic value to the year 1981/2 (based upon the 1290 days in Dan.12:11), and while the commencement of the Tribulation is one of the most significant prophetic events in scripture, certainly nothing even remotely comparable happened in 1981/2 (Q.E.D.).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #11:

Thanks Bob,

Please do let me know if there are other things for me to pray about for you? I pray everyday for you and your family, your ministry and your job at the university. I am also currently praying for that uptake in Autumn for Greek. Please do not hesitate to let me know!

I do think of your walk with the Lord and what you might be going through. It is easy to think, like many who follow your ministry probably think, that your walk is a piece of cake. We tend to think this because we can see how mature you are and are amazed by your ministry and truly see the good fruit you are producing in all its abundance. We also see how much patience you have with people (no matter how resistant to growth they are) and also how unflappable and good humoured you are. It is easy to think that it is a cinch for you now.

I used to think like that too but now that I am inching closer towards Ministry, I now realise just how hot the battle gets as you move towards the target. The enemy will not let Ministry work go unchallenged. Sometimes it can feel as though constant fire is steadily shot at me. It is like constant machine gun fire. I also get what I call 'shots across the bow' which seems to always come in threes for some reason, this is all while that enervating machine gun fire is blasting away through everything else.

I guess for me the machine gun fire is the daily evil that I have to plow through which is the grumpiness, the contrariness, the hypocrisy, the depression, the entitlement and downright meanness (which is increasing) that surrounds me from all directions. On top of these things come the big three shots across the bow which are more like bombshells that are dropped on me while I am already trying to keep my head above the water.

There is something about the enervating wearing away of that constant daily fire (the appalling global cult-ure we are surrounded by and it's fervent followers) and then those big bombshells of crises, sometimes one after another that can really shake everything..but we know that the Lord will not test us beyond what we can manage. We have to see it as a compliment that He can see our spiritual growth and knows we will continue to overcome all in Him.

I do often think though now that, if I am going through this and I know it is opposition to my ministry, then what is Bob going through??? I have also experienced the horrible flak from people online and in person when I have defended my faith so I also wonder what you have gone through over the years and the kind of emails you have to sit through. My heart goes out to you!

The way I look at things now though, I have put the world into the background and the Lord front and centre so that I am always trying to look at Him and not the waters raging around me. You said yourself to not take this world seriously at all (indeed it is idiotic for all its hubris and folly) and it is all perishing! We take God and the Word very seriously though and it is all joy when you realise that NOTHING is impossible for God, that it is all for our good, that He loves us very much, that everything is in His hands (even our testing) and that we are SAVED, His special possession and also, did I mention, that He is returning very, very soon!

I have turned a corner and the branches that were not bearing fruit have been pruned off. No matter what is happening to me, I can wake up joyful and go to bed joyful. I am also striving to keep that joy in place at ALL TIMES and people ARE noticing. For this is but a light affliction isn't it?

I also now see my abode and every material thing around me as being on temporary loan and that the Lord will always provide for me for whatever I truly need but I am to only have a light grasp on all so that I can up and leave it all behind should the Lord want me to. I also see that everyday is the time for walking in the work that the Lord has prepared for us. That is our 'meat to eat that others do not know of'. We keep on progressing and labouring in the vineyards, planting and watering, planting and watering. Then soon as that special trumpet blasts then we know our work is done and we can down tools and will fly off to meet Him in the clouds!

Isn't is wonderful! There truly is nothing to fear, or worry or be discouraged about as He is our all in all! We lack nothing and it really is ALL JOY. This light affliction will very soon pass and we will soon be with Him FOREVER! For all blissful eternity! And we won't give this trial here another second thought! It's truly wonderful Bob, I really am starting to see Him now more than I can see the world and it is GLORIOUS!

Keep fighting the good fight my friend! You are in for a great reward and I can speak for your ministry that we all know this and will be cheering you on when you receive it! Keep going and remember to consider it all joy as we will soon be with Him and nothing of this world can compare to that glorious eternal future! Be excited and thrilled about this. He has promised us and He is faithful and true! Amen!

In Jesus, the first and the last and our all in all,

Response #11:

Thanks for your prayers. I did pick up another enrollment for my Greek class, so thank you!

You are right about the fact that we do come in for opposition when we are doing what the Lord wants. That is true of us all (1Thes.3:4; 2Tim.3:12).

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.
1st Peter 4:12-13 NIV

Here's part of something our friend Curt of Bible Academy wrote me to encourage me in the recent trial I am battling through:

That is indeed very important to remember when we are feeling lonely, let down, neglected, too tired to go on, etc. Everything that happens was written up in the plan of God before creation began, and every deliverance the Lord has always had in mind for us will happen and no amount of opposition can stop it. So all we suffer is for our good in the end (Jas.1:2-5), because, for us who love the Lord and who have been called in accordance with that plan, He "works all things together for our good" (Rom.8:28).

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 NIV

NOTHING can stop this from happening. Praise the Lord!

(31) So what shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? (32) He who did not spare His own Son, but handed Him over for our sake, how will He not also graciously give us everything [we need] along with [that gift of] Him? (33) Who will [dare to] bring charges against God's elect? God is the One who is pronouncing [us] justified. (34) Who is he that condemns [us]? Christ Jesus is the One who died [condemned in our place], and the One, moreover, who was raised from the dead [for us], who is [seated] at the right hand of God, who is also making petitions on our behalf. (35) What will separate us from Christ's love? Tribulation? Or privation? Or persecution? Or hunger? Or destitution? Or danger? Or violence? (36) As it is written, "For your sake we are being put to death all day long. We were accounted as sheep for slaughter". (37) But in all such things we are decisively victorious through Him who loved us [enough to do what He did for us]. (38) For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, neither angelic nor human authorities, neither things present nor things to come, neither heavenly powers, (39) be they the highest [of the elect] or the lowest [of the fallen], nor any other created thing [on this earth] will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:31-39

Thank you SO much for this marvelously encouraging email, my friend. And thanks also for your prayers! I have you in mine every day.

Keep fighting the fight.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
[n.b., the Lord of course DID work out a great deliverance for us]

Question #12:

Thank you so much my friend! Keeping you in mine!

[omitted re: relative being attacked]

A lot of this doesn't add up statistically. Probably have more chance being struck by lightning but then we do not have any 'chance' here. I know my ministry is in its infancy but maybe this is why my __ is being attacked like this? It also occurred to me that ___ is having success handed to him on a plate (so young!) which never happened for me in the same field. So there is more than one angle of attack from the enemy. I assure you that there is no sour grapes for me here as I am not interested in pursuing __ and I see fame now as the snare that it is.

I don't know if I told you before but many of my peers have become famous. It really is very easy to do, they made it look rare but really it isn't. One of my old flatmates (I told you before) is a famous children's book writer and he told me that he had an agent within a week and a publisher within a month. Most think this exciting but now I find it chilling. I realise how Satan uses fame to basically take people out so they can be of no threat to him in this war whatsoever. I don't think of these people as the world does. I don't think of them as racehorses getting closer to the finish line but actually instead fallen at the first jump and taken out of the race altogether. Most of the world is already fallen at that first jump.

Funnily enough, after moving away from __ I had some aspirations for children's books too and then someone I know suddenly lands a deal? So I can see the baited hooks lying around for everyone. Before I became a believer, I took my illustrations along to an agency open house meeting. One agent told me that she could get me a publishing deal no problem. I never went for it. I had a gut feeling not to go for it it just sounded too simplistic and too easy. I was readying myself for the hard slog and there was someone offering it to me on a plate at the first outing? Something about this did not sit right with me.

I am so glad now that I haven't pursued fame. It terrifies me now knowing how close I was to be 'hooked and reeled in'. How much greater riches I now have in Christ! The freedom in Christ! The joy I can have at every moment knowing I belong to Him forever if I abide in Him.

I know from the world that once Satan has you hooked (to anything) then you are forever dancing to his tune

In Him,

Response #12:

It is true that those we love are sometimes subjected to trouble on our account – to distract and trouble us. But there is also "blessing by association". Just think how Esau, a person so vile he even despised his birthright, was blessed because of Isaac.

I'm keeping ___ in my prayers.

Interesting about all of the opportunities you've had – and others around you have landed. I do think it is true that we have to be "careful what we wish for", along the lines of buying lottery tickets: if a Christian does that . . . and wins big . . . I can't help but wonder if this is not the devil using that mistake to try and ruin the person's life. Fame and success of any sort is equally just such a "lottery ticket".

I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.
Ecclesiastes 9:11 NIV

It's not random. Nothing in the plan of God is. Staying away from things we know are not good for us is biblical prudence.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:11-12 KJV

You have sacrificed a lot for the Lord! I know you are happy for it – and will be SO much happier in the end as a result.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #13:

Thanks Bob,

Yes I am much happier now than I have ever been in my life before, even with tribulation.
I can honestly say that the selfish ambition I had in the past for these carnal things is truly a dunghill. The stink of it may be disguised by a heavy perfume and it may be embellished with some 'window dressing' but I still see it now as the dunghill that it is.

I don't have any regret or longings for these things as I see how burdensome they are and all things that are burdensome that are also without any lasting joy or peace becomes vexatious and eventually loathsome to the bearer of it. There is no freedom or strength to be found in fame or fortunes, they are all snares. I have seen one person after another fall into these pits and I am very grateful not to be one of them. The Bible says that it is better not to marry as a spouse brings problems. Well money and success bring problems too. Like you have said before, it takes a real mature believer to pass the prosperity test. Money can cause people to wander from the faith and be pierced with many sorrows.

It's all too risky and I regard my faith and salvation more precious to me than rubies. I have the pearl of great price now and nothing can compare to Him. I see through the rest of it, the noise and churn and see it as worthless and pointless. It is the life to come that I have set my heart on.

Something else that I have learned along the way..it is real wisdom to say that we shouldn't change any of the outer things when we become a Christian. We may shed things with maturity but the only new things we should be gaining are spiritual growth and brethren through our ministry. I have learned the hard way that new people into our lives who are not believers will only mean trouble and be under the enemy's influence.

( Note - I have been so successful recently in keeping such demonically influenced people out of my life that the enemy had to resort to sending one into my home with a parcel delivery yesterday. This coersive man made a pass at me in my own house but I soon removed him and reported the incident as he may be more successful with other women who are alone when he arrives.)

I have also learned to give short shrift to people who clearly have an agenda or designs on me that have seared consciences. I immediately cut all ties with reprobate people and move on without regret. Yes I do forgive them for what they do to me but do so when they are in my 'rear view mirror' whilst I am driving away from them. I can spot time wasters now and I have so little time to waste on them (we all do.)

The Lord tells us that if they don't hear the truth from us then we are to shake the dust off our feet and move on. It is sad in these Laodicean times that even believers have to be vetted to see if they are truly in the faith and also if they are willing to grow and mature. Sometimes believers who are unwilling to grow and study themselves can also sap all the precious time we have. Of course we are to always have patience and labour over the good soil but (again) I have learned the hard way that labouring over the rocky ground is tiresome and unfruitful and takes us away from those who are truly willing and ready.

So it had been quite the learning curve for me and we learn in the trenches do we not. It's all there already in the Word isn't it? Everything we will experience and be up against is finely detailed in scripture. We learn from the wise counsel of the Word of bitter experience.

The confidence and assurance I have, the peace and joy in Christ is incomparable to anything this world has to offer. I am very, very blessed. The Lord has given me great spiritual bounty that the world has no idea of, true spiritual riches that last forever as long as I abide in Him, Amen!

The more the enemy throws things at me, the more he 'tells' on himself. Every time he uses a human being to accomplish his will then I can take notes on how he operates and then this can be added to my ministry! He is actually revealing himself and his strategies more and more!

The thing about warfare is that you cannot keep the cards close to your chest forever if you want to win. At some point you have to put the cards down. Whenever Satan 'puts his cards down' (he has to do this to wage war against us) he reveals something of what he is trying to achieve and the strategy he is deploying. You cannot attack a person in battle whilst simultaneously hiding your strategy. The only way you can do this is by providing a decoy for you to suspect is the threat whist the real threat goes unnoticed.

Obviously Satan does do this all the time (by appearing as an angel of light) and the most notorious way he will do this is through antichrist. You can learn a lot though when he attacks us and this can help my ministry a great deal.

Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

In Jesus, the pearl of great price,

Response #13:

This is a glorious exposition, my friend! One which will be very helpful to others – in many ways this is getting at the essence of spiritual warfare.

It's good to have other fellow warriors standing strong in the ranks.

I am very grateful for your needful prayers, so please keep them coming!

In Jesus our dear Savior,

Bob L.

Question #14:

Hi Bob,

Re: Zechariah chapter six, are these the same as the four horses of Revelation? Zechariah seems to be a redacted version of Revelation.

I pray all is well with you and yours up there in the frozen far north. It looks like we may have our first freeze here tonight.

In our Lord,

Response #14:

Good to hear from you, my friend.

No, these are different. The four in Revelation chapter six are symbols, not real individuals. Each one is a seal on the outside of the scroll of the book of Revelation which all need to be undone for the Revelation of Christ and the seven years preceding it to proceed. As such, they give a preview of the major trends of the Tribulation (commencing in the first half of the Tribulation in the case of these four horses and their riders): 1) antichrist's conquests; 2) increase of lawlessness and political destabilization; 3) economic hardship; 4) accelerated rate of mortality (here's the link on that).

In Zechariah 6:1ff., these are actual angels with jobs to do. Also, they are riding in chariots with multiple horses. Instead of being differentiated by what they symbolize, they have specific and actual geographical responsibilities, keeping watch and also instituting divine policy in the various regions of the earth (through the winds they control).

(4) And I answered and said to the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my lord?” (5) And the angel answered me and said, “These are the four winds of heaven, going forth from standing by the Lord of the entire earth. (6) And among them, the black horses are going to the land of the north, and the white ones have gone behind them, and the dappled ones have gone to the land of the south, (7) for they are strong, and they went and made request to go and to go about throughout the earth. And He (i.e., the Lord) said, ‘Go! Go about throughout the earth!’ And they went about throughout the earth. (8) Then He shouted to me and said, ‘Look! Those going to the land of the north have set My Spirit [of wrath] upon the land of the north!’”
Zechariah 6:4-8

The above is my translation (n.b., you can see from inspection of the last verse that most versions are completely "out to lunch" on what the Hebrew actually says here). In calling these charioteers "the four winds of heaven", we see that rather than syncing with the horsemen they sync with the angels of chapter seven:

(1) And after this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that a wind might not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (2) And I saw another angel coming up from the rising of the sun with a seal of the Living God. And he shouted in a loud voice to the four angels to whom it had been given to harm the earth and the sea, (3) saying, “Don’t harm the earth or the sea or any tree until we place a seal upon the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
Revelation 7:1-3

Here's the link on where this is discussed and the passages are compared (the Four Angels of the Four Winds).

We've had a bunch of freezes so far, but the temps have bounced back. Another freeze tonight. Nasturtiums are long gone (even the hardier Alaska ones). If we ever have a dry spell, I need to get to the next phase of yard clean up (leaves to rake et al.).

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #15:

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your explanation and links. There's much more to this than I thought and many more dots to connect. My first reaction when I read your four points was, "We have that now." But as I read on and read the links, what we have now is just what we've had since the beginning. As I thought about it, I thought Hamas were barbarians. (I still believe that.) Then I recalled the west coast rioting in '21 and realized that we, too, are barbarian. And that led me all the way back to Lot and how he was assailed by the Sodomites. Then I thought about government and that led all the way back to Ahab and Jezebel. I'm beginning to think the Tribulation will be all of those combined at one point in time. There's much to ponder.

Fortunately, I doubt I'll be here unless the Lord determines that I must. No matter the outcome, I'm not particularly worried. I would prefer not having pain and having enough to eat, but it would be a short time otherwise,

Had our first very light frost this morning; didn't kill the bugs. (Normal is sometime in mid November.)

I pray all is well with you at U of L. What I see in the scan-by headlines is not at all like what I remember from my college days. There were anti-Vietnam war protests, I was actually spat on while in uniform, but nothing like today. Those protests were not nearly as aggressive as what the scan-by headlines today suggest. (I don't think we have news anymore; it's more opinion wrapped around situations. (BTW -- do you know we are now considered stochastic terrorists? Whatever that bizarre combination of words means.)

I pray you and yours are well and safe.

In our Lord,

Response #15:

The difference between the four trends of the Tribulation exemplified by the four horsemen and what we have now is a matter of degrees. On one level an April shower and a Cat 5 hurricane are the same thing: rain. But the intensity level makes them different on that account alone. Same thing with the tribulational trends. So, re: "I'm beginning to think the Tribulation will be all of those combined at one point in time", that's a good way to put it.

As to "I would prefer not having pain and having enough to eat", I personally seriously dislike being uncomfortable, but it'll be what it'll be. Seven years seems long, but at least we'll know that the clock is running and that it won't and can't last forever. And of course it will be shorter for some of us than for others. We have to keep our focus on the end of it and the glorious return of our Lord.

Nothing is happening at U of L, especially not now. The semester is over and there's hardly a soul on campus. Things have largely calmed down for me in the job too – so thanks for those prayers! Looking forward to a nice Christmas break once I get the last obstacles out of the way this week.

Hoping you get to spend some time with your grandkids.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #16:

Your title grabbed me because I'm working on a series called THE TRIBULATION TIMELINE.

The goal is to plot out all the numbers the bible gives us regarding the tribulation timeline without resorting to symbolism or interpretation.

The 144,000 as firstfruits tells me they are raptured first, perhaps along with the Two Witnesses which places the blowing of the sixth trumpet fairly close to the blowing of the 5th Trumpet. As Abaddon is released from hell (and yes he is the anti-Christ, the beast out of the Sea that is killed at the 3 1/2 year mark, sent to hell and is released at the 5th Trumpet. He has four goals, kill the two witnesses, destroy the Woman of Babylon, lead an army from hell and ultimately possess the image of himself the beast out of the earth created causing it to walk and talk. A fake resurrection.

Anyway, I believe the 144,000 will be raptured at the same time as the Two Witnesses but I've got no scripture to support this.

I also believe the scroll IS the tribulation period wrapped and decreed in the scroll. So many people completely ignore the scroll and it completely embodies the three period of Revelation (which go far beyond 7 years) The Seals, and then the scroll itself which has writing on both sides, one side is redemption in the form of the Trumpets and a 7th trumpet rapture and destruction in the form of the Bowls of God's wrath on the other side. Again, I have little scriptural support for this.

I appreciate your due diligence and deep dive into the Word.

Blessings,

Response #16:

Of course we all want to "get it right". Overdoing the symbolic part of Revelation is indeed a major problem of interpretation. As I have often pointed out, Revelation is only symbolic when it makes it clear it is using symbolism, as in, e.g., Revelation 12:1, "Now a great sign appeared in heaven . . .".

One other thing to keep in mind is that for the most part Revelation is chronological. So the six Trumpets all take place in sequence. The execution and resuscitation of the two witnesses takes place just before the seventh Trumpet (Rev.11:1-14 vs. Rev.11:15ff.); the martyrdom of the 144,000 (Rev.14), follows the seventh Trumpet. The seventh Trumpet is the warning of the Great Tribulation, the second half or second 3 and 1/2 years.

The beast is active from day one of the Tribulation (cf. 2Thes.2:7-10; also Dan.11:21ff.; he is the rider on the white horse: Rev.6:2). Revelation 13 "catches up" on his activities in panoramic fashion and continues according to the chronology as the main events there happen as part of the Great Tribulation.

I seriously dislike using the word "rapture" because that conjures up notions of the false pre-Trib "rapture" theory that is rendering so many evangelicals disinterested and hence unprepared for what is soon to come. In any case, there is a great difference between resurrection (permanent and eternal) and resuscitation (temporary to fulfill God's special purposes ala Lazarus). No one other than Christ is resurrected before His second advent return ("at the last trumpet": 1Thes.4:13-17; 1Cor.15:51ff.). Moses and Elijah are resuscitated . . . twice . . . but not resurrected. The 144,000 are martyred. The scene in Revelation 14 is in the third heaven where they are in interim state (along with all other departed believers; cf. Rev.6:9-11; 7:13-17) being specially honored.

The scroll is "the Revelation of Jesus Christ". The process of His revelation only occurs once it is opened (see the link).

Honestly, I think it would be a lot easier just to read the Coming Tribulation series where all of this is explained in detail. It is very long. BB 2B: Eschatology presents a much shorter (though still by no means short) version of the same.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #17:

I'll be reviewing and reading your links today, thanks so much!

I don't see the scroll as a revelation of Jesus as much as God's judgement over all His Creation. Everyone gets judged. From Satan, the fallen angels, all of us as well. Which is why Satan has been allowed into the throne room to this day! God removed Lucifer from his position in God's Kingdom, but as a created being, God cannot condemn Satan without judging all of His creation. It has writing on both sides, The Trumpets on one side which leads to redemption and the Bowls on the other side which lead to destruction. What encompasses the Scroll is the Seals, the Trumpets and the Bowls. Until all 7 Seals are broken, the scroll cannot be unrolled. Is that a proper view?

Blessings,

Response #17:

My pleasure,

On the book of Revelation, it identifies itself very clearly as what it is and what its purpose is:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
Revelation 1:1 NKJV

The word "revelation" means "unveiling" or "revealing", and since Jesus is revealed in the book itself (returning in glory in chapter 19), there can be little doubt but that the scroll is the book of Revelation and the events connected to it. The book has judgments ("bitter in the stomach") but also blessed revelations about the future we all anticipate ("sweet in the mouth"). Only the Lamb can open its seals, and once He does, the end times commence, concluding with His victory, the Millennium, and the final eternal state on the other side of the last judgment when His "Bride" (i.e., our eternal home, New Jerusalem) descends from heaven to the new earth. These are the things "which must shortly take place" (i.e., in rapid succession once the book is opened), all connected directly to our Lord Jesus whose revelation it is.

He [i.e., Jesus Christ] who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Revelation 22:20

It is true that the scroll cannot be unrolled (commencement of the end times) until the seventh seal is broken. That will happen at its destined time. The purpose and nature of the seals (which give an overview of events during the seven years to come) are fundamentally different, therefore, than the Trumpets, actual judgments (which serve as warnings to the world) and the Bowls, actual judgments (which are punitive and rendered for the sake of believers who are suffering under antichrist and his followers).

Re writing front and back, here is what I say about that in CT 2B:

The Scroll: As codex style books had not yet been invented at the time Revelation was written, the word "book" here (Greek: biblion, βιβλίον; from which the word "Bible" comes) is actually a scroll or roll. This particular scroll, representing the book of Revelation, has writing on both its inside and its outside, an indication of the intensity of events during the Tribulation (cf. Ezek.2:9-10). In this regard, we may also be correct in seeing some symbolism here of the division of the Tribulation into two discrete parts, with the second or "back" part by far the more onerous of the two (for the rear or verso of any papyrus roll was always the more difficult to write upon because its fibers ran at right angles to the flow of the scribe's hand– so that the "rough" side indicates the corresponding "roughness" of the second half of the Tribulation, that is, the Great Tribulation).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #18:

Good morning Bob,

I find it interesting that the time of Jacob's Trouble, the 70th week is found in the Seals and the Trumpets, representing those 7 years - (when in actuality, this seven year period will go over the 7 year period a little bit. The Bowls, while part of the Scroll is not representative of the 70th week. I think the 70th week concludes with the rapture.

I also have tried to determine when the 144,000 are taken. Do they go with the Two Witnesses? Prior to the 7th Trumpet? They are separated from the mass exodus of the 7th Trumpet and are firstfruits, but there is zero indication as to when they are taken.

Still studying! I actually believe the scroll in the throne room is from Daniel.

Blessings,

Response #18:

1) Re: "the 70th week is found in the Seals and the Trumpets, representing those 7 years": The seals are on the outside of the scroll; when they (the seventh) are all opened, the Tribulation begins. The Trumpets are a series of judgments warning unbelievers to repent; they take place during the first half of the Tribulation, with the seventh trumpet encapsulating the Great Tribulation – that is itself "the third woe".

2) Re: "Jacob's Trouble" in Jeremiah 30:7 is generally taken to refer to the Tribulation and I agree with that. Here's what I say about that in CT 1:

d. The Time of Jacob's Trouble: This phrase in Jeremiah 30:7 is a clear reference to the Tribulation as the context indicates. It will be a time like no other (v.7), but one followed by liberation (v.8), the rule of the Messiah (v.9), and the regathering of the nation (v.10).

However, this (Jer.30:7) is a general statement and has no time-related information in the context. The Tribulation lasts seven years. If "Jacob's Trouble" is the Tribulation, then it too lasts seven years.

3) "when in actuality, this seven year period will go over the 7 year period a little bit" – not sure what you mean by this. In fact, we have it from our Lord that instead of "going over", those days will be "shortened" "for the sake of the elect" otherwise "no one would survive" (Matt.24:22 NIV).

We find the 144,000 on Mt. Zion (in heaven) following the events of chapters 11-13 which take place at the Tribulation's mid-point; thus it is clear that they are martyred in the first wave of the Great Persecution (see the link). Revelation chapter eleven tells the story of the two witnesses and thus straddles the seventh trumpet. They conduct their ministry, guiding the 144,000 (among other things), during the Tribulation's first half. The seventh trumpet begins the second half. In short order after it is begun we have the beast's war on Moses and Elijah (Rev.11), the flight of believing Israel into the desert (Rev.12), the commencement of the Great Tribulation worldwide (the mark of the beast et al.; Rev.13), and the martyrdom of the 144,000 (Rev.14). So, as mentioned, Revelation covers things roughly chronologically, but, just as in a secular history, it is necessary to concentrate on some issues as a piece even though the timeline overlaps other events, because otherwise it would be too confusing to understand. All you have to do is read someone like, e.g., Diodorus Siculus to see how confusing a strictly year by year treatment can be (for example).

As to Daniel, the only references to writings of which I am aware are 1) in Daniel 10:21, "the writing/scripture of truth". This seems clearly to mean the content of what follows in Daniel chapter eleven which, while the latter part of it does deal with the Tribulation, is not the same as the book of Revelation; and 2) Dan.12:1 and Daniel 12:4. These have to be different because the first one has the names of the elect (so this must be the Book of Life) and the second one is to be sealed up by Daniel himself (so that must be the book of Daniel).

I do think that if you'd read the Coming Tribulation series, you'd see how all this falls into place. "The sum is greater that the individual parts", so to speak.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #19:

3) "(when in actuality, this seven year period will go over the 7 year period a little bit" -- not sure what you mean by this. In fact, we have it from our Lord that instead of "going over", those days will be "shortened" "for the sake of the elect" otherwise "no one would survive" (Matt.24:22 NIV).

The Trumpets and the Bowls are on the scroll. One side Trumpets, the other side the Bowls. The Trumpets cannot start till the scroll can be unrolled. Thus the Seven Seals proceed anything else and encompass the first 3 1/2 years. That's why the Seventh Seal is separated from the other six - highly significant. What has been written can now be declared. Jacob's Trouble start with the start of tribulation through the seventh trumpet. Daniel states it will be 1,290 days from the daily sacrifice abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up. That's 30 days past 7 years. In fact he goes on to share the day of rapture, 1335 days - but we know those times will be shorted.

Daniel 12:11
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

But I suspect the 5th 6th and 7 Trumpets blow not far between each other. In fact, 3 1/2 days between the 5th and 6th Trumpets. That's because Abaddon comes out of hell at the 5th Trumpet and kills the two witnesses. 3 1/2 days later they are made alive and are taken away. I can't prove it but I also think that's when the 144,000 go. From there I can plot out when the 5th Trumpet blows because I know when the Two Witnesses are killed.

So you discount the Seals entirely? Consider what happens in the earth, that would be called tribulation.

Concerning Daniel's scroll, it's the Angel that shows Daniel the book of Truth. Daniel is told to seal up the scroll until the time of the end. That scroll has never been opened because only Jesus can open it. That cannot be the Book of Daniel, absolutely separate.

I look forward to getting your ideas on my timeline.

Blessings,

Response #19:

As I've tried to explain, the seals offer a preview which can be seen without the scroll being opened. The first four give trends that begin during the first half but continue throughout the Tribulation. The fifth and sixth give the two major events of the second half, namely, the Great Persecution and the Second Advent respectively. The seventh signifies the commencement overall since it can't start until that final seal is opened. So while the seals are chronological, they are not in sequence with the rest of the events described later on in Revelation; rather, they give an overview of some of those events. This is all covered in CT 2B: "The Seven Seals" (at the link).

Regarding the 1,290 days versus the 1335 days, those numbers are referring to the time it takes to purify the temple and repatriate Israel respectively as Daniel 12:11-12 states very explicitly (although this is often ignored). So these numbers do extend past the end of the Tribulation but they don't have anything in particular to do with the scroll or anything else specifically mentioned in Revelation. This is all explained at the link in CT 6: "The Time of Purging".

Revelation gives us the framework for tribulational and end times events, but there are other important passages throughout the Bible which must be considered in order to understand and put together the "history" of the Tribulation and what follows (see in CT 1: "Biblical Sources for the End Times" at the link). In doing so, it's not a question of picking and choosing. Everything the Bible says about all of these events must be considered. That is the purpose of the Coming Tribulation series, and why the subtitle is "A History of the Apocalypse".

Revelation, since it approaches these matters roughly chronologically and specifically, is the natural, God-given book to use as the vehicle to organize that future history, adding and expanding and explaining everything in its proper place wherever other passages and issues are best considered. Nothing can be left out and it ALL has to "fit", with everything being correctly interpreted from what the scriptures actually say in the original Greek and Hebrew. That is what Coming Tribulation does (IMHO).

Again, I think if you read it carefully, front to back, your questions would be answered.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #20:

Hello sir Robert. Are you still leaning on to your prediction that Christ will come back by year 2026?

Response #20:

Good to hear from you! I have been keeping you in my prayers, my friend. What's the update on your business situation? Is your family OK? Any progress and reaching your family and your wife's with the truth?

On 2026, the first thing to say is that I am most definitely not a prophet. I don't have that gift and I don't make predictions. 2026 is an interpretation of biblical and secular chronological information. Here's a link which explains how I arrived at it, noting that if any of the assumptions are incorrect, then that would affect the whole. I don't believe they are, but, as I say, it is an interpretation rather than a straight, doctrinal teaching (and definitely not a prediction).

Secondly, 2026, in my estimation of things, is seven years BEFORE the return of Christ. According to the best date we have, Christ was crucified and rose from the dead in 33 A.D., which would mean that 2033 would be 2,000 years later, the two millennial days of the Church Age (see the link). Since we know definitively that the Tribulation will last seven years (e.g., it is Daniel's "70th week"), subtracting that time period from the probable date of the Lord's return would give us 2026 as the commencement for the Tribulation (not the second advent).

Hope that clears things up. Do feel free to write me back on any of this (and also looking forward to your update).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

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