Question #1:
Doc if you haven't heard about Project 2025, it very much concerns me. It's basically a Republican plan to turn America into a Christian theocracy, replace the entire Federal Government with loyalists to the new party, and criminalize all LGBT people and greatly limited freedom of religion and speech in this nation if not get rid of it outright. If this is really nothing to worry about I'll gladly hear it, but they plan to do all this as soon as they win the Presidency next year, and even if this is part of the whole thing that starts the Tribulation/leads up to it i very much am terrified of it. A huge part of the Republican Party and Conservative organizations support this and even if someone in their wing other than Trump win they'll most certainly "make do with what they have". Please pray this won't come to fruition, this plan is what finally quelled any doubts...the Right Wing truly is no better than the Left, the entire political spectrum is truly just a sick game Satan is playing with the world to its downfall.
Response #1:
Never heard of it. Chances of anything like this happening are less than
zero, so I wouldn't worry about it. In any case, I always counsel
believers not to worry themselves about politics generally . . . and
certainly NOT to get involved. Anything that distracts us from "job #1",
spiritual growth, is a mistake. And nothing distracts quite like
politics – unless it's relationships (but the latter are often necessary
which the former is definitely not).
You are certainly right about one thing: "the entire political
spectrum is truly just a sick game Satan is playing with the world to
its downfall". Blessedly, God is in control of everything. So even
though the devil through antichrist will gain control of the entire
world during the Tribulation, we have already been told of the final end
of all these troubles of which we are only seeing the birth pangs at
present.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 NKJV
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11-16 NKJV
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #2:
Doc correct me if I'm remembering any of this wrong, and this is just speculation, but the Tribulation will be signaled by sounds of thunder and an earthquake felt and heard all across the world right? Do you think this could have anything to do with the San Andreas Fault going off? I mean it would certainly be a very mighty quake felt all across the world, and while I'm not sure if this would qualify, the sheer explosive sound of so much land splitting and moving so fast might even make a sound heard far and wide similar to thunder. I want to hear your thoughts on this.
Response #2:
I can't speak to particular, local occurrences because the Bible
doesn't. But as you remember from Revelation chapter eight, yes, these
amazing things will be heard and felt worldwide. Revelation doesn't say
anything about huge damage and loss of life at the inception of the
Tribulation, however. That comes later. So, while it's possible, I
wonder how what you're speculating about could happen and not produce
all sorts of problems that aren't present in prophecy.
It is also true, however, that the Bible only gives us the schematic of
what will happen, not all the gritty details in every case. For example,
primary school class that knows nothing at all about WWII could be given
the outline of events in a single class period – but that would be quite
different from knowing about in detail from having lived through it,
obviously. And in terms of the Tribulation, many of us will doubtless
live through it (or at least into it).
So we will just have to wait and see. Given the great number of major
faults all over this country and the world (there is a large one near
Louisville which produced a massive quake in the past, for example:
the New Madrid fault), it would be a mistake in my opinion to move
here or there in the hopes of avoiding some disaster which might not
happen or at least will turn out to be different than what we may
imagine now.
We believers will all have to make our peace with trusting the Lord for
deliverance once that difficult time comes. Not a bad policy here and
now either!
I have set the LORD always before me; Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved.
Psalm 16:8 NKJV
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #3:
Hi Bob,
In times past, I read 2nd Timothy 3:1-9 as something in the future. But,
now, as I scan the headlines, I realize Paul was talking about now. At
first, I thought he was talking about government but then, I realized,
he's talking about us – our society and our culture.
The three translations I checked all translate "last days". Not
Tribulation. So my interpretation is we are in the "last days" which
gives your interpretation of the beginning of the Tribulation as late
'26 all the more credence. And it's much closer than I think people
understand.
I'm sure you are seeing all this, too. Am I off base? And just getting
carried away?
I pray you are well and U of L is treating you well.
In our Lord and savior,
Response #3:
This passage, 2nd Timothy 3:1-9, is primarily talking about false teachers, but certainly it has application to the state of humanity prior to and particularly during the Tribulation (cf. 1Tim.4:1-3, e.g.). Here's my translation of the passage:
So be aware of this, that in the last days there will be difficult times. For [in those times] there will be men (i.e., false teachers; cf. chap.2) concerned only for themselves, devoted to money, egotistic, arrogant, blasphemous, not concerned for their parents, ungrateful, irreverent, implacable, slanderers, uninhibited, savage, despising the good, betrayers, impetuous, megalomaniacal, devotees of pleasure rather than lovers of God, possessing an [outward] appearance of godliness, but [in reality] having rejected its [true] power. From such men turn away. Of this sort are those who [even in our own day] worm their way into households and take captive the [spiritually] weak who are loaded down with sins, leading them astray with various lusts, [victims who consequently,] though always learning, are never able to accept the truth. In the same way that [Pharaoh's court magicians] Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, for their minds have been corrupted and they have been found wanting concerning the faith. But they will not keep on striding forward forever. Their folly will become obvious to all, just as in the case of those two.
2nd Timothy 3:1-9
The phrase in 2nd Timothy 3:1 is eschatai hemerai, with the first
word being the adjective "final" and the source of our English word
"eschatology". In Acts 2:17 and in James 5:3 we find the same phrase
where it is clearly referring to events after the Tribulation's
commencement. However, in Hebrews 1:2 it is unquestionably referring to
the Church Age. That is not really surprising since the Church Age is
the threshold of the end times. I.e., we are the ones "upon whom the
ends of the ages have come", because the end times commence at the end
of this age (coincident with its final seven years).
What we can say is that the trends of behavior seen in this passage you
ask about have always been present, are clearly on the rise in our own
day, and are prophesied to reach a peak of intensity during the
Tribulation. So while we do have "difficult times" at present, the
Tribulation will be worse. While people in general certainly seem to me
to be, e.g., more "egotistic, arrogant, blasphemous" than was the case
when I was a young lad, they will become worse during the Tribulation.
And that goes double for false teachers of which this country is filled
to the brim at present.
So you are certainly correct in seeing this trend of intensification
being another indication that the end is coming. As to the "how soon?",
I'm not sure we can use this as a yardstick to measure the time, because
on the one hand our impressions are somewhat subjective and difficult to
measure precisely (even though they be true and accurate), and on the
other hand we really don't know just how much worse things may get even
before the Tribulation arrives (let alone, once it arrives). So just
from the standpoint of the devolution of human behavior, this trend
could easily continue for quite some time barring divine intervention –
which is what the Tribulation is, after all.
I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.
Revelation 6:1a NIV
Opening the seals is done by our Lord. That begins the Tribulation which ends with His return and the associated judgments. That is why the last book of the Bible is called, "The Revelation (i.e., "revealing") of Jesus Christ".
Jesus Christ's revelation which God gave to Him in order to show His (i.e., Christ's) servants what must take place in rapid succession.
Revelation 1:1a
Things are going relatively well here. The job is a busy one, but I've managed to find a rhythm over the years to get to everything that is really important (i.e., this ministry, et al.).
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #4:
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the explanation. That passage so perfectly describes out milieu that
I had to ask rather than assume. It's hard to believe things can get much worse
but I have to believe scripture. Current conditions were unbelievable just a few
short years ago.
I'm glad all is well at U of L. I see headlines go by about the chicanery going
on at ivy league schools and worry. It makes me wonder what these kids were/are
taught. UT was going that way back in the late 80s and early 90. I shudder to
think what it may be today. I don't go near Austin anymore. Haven't been there
in 20 years.
Stay well and safe.
In our Lord,
Response #4:
"Current conditions were unbelievable just a few short years ago." Isn't that the truth! Few people have seen any of what has happened even technologically ahead of time (although Al Jafee of "Mad Magazine" when trying to be funny predicted automatic telephone redial, the computer spell-checker, peelable stamps, multi-blade razors, graffiti-proof building surfaces and the self-extinguishing cigarette). For the rest of us in terms of cultural and political trends, we probably didn't WANT to believe that much of what we see could ever happen. Well we have to believe it now. And if anyone wants to say that the events described during the Tribulation are impossible in the short term, they should just consider paraphrasing Michigan's state motto:
Si quaeris paeninsulam amoenam, circumspice! ("If you're looking for a nice peninsula [or whatever in your paraphrase, just fill in the blank]. . . just look around!")
Re: "all is well at U of L", I wouldn't go that far. But it's not as bad
as many other places in terms of ___________ (lots to fill in the blank with
here too!). Prayers for protection from all Philistines (of whom all
institutions of higher learning these days are replete) are greatly appreciated!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #5:
Hi Dr,
I pray all is well. With the Israel War, do you think this is a preclude
to Psalm 83 war in the Bible?
Your thoughts would be insightful. Need to go back and reread coming
tribulation.
In Christ our Lord
Response #5:
In terms of Psalm 83, there is definitely a prophetic element to this
psalm as is the case with many psalms (as I say in
CT
1 at the link). During the Armageddon campaign, Israel will be
surrounded in the manner this psalm describes prior to the second
advent.
In terms of the events unfolding at present, while I have no doubt that
this is part of the process of the evil one preparing the ground, so to
speak, for the Tribulation, we will be in no doubt once the Tribulation
actually begins (Rev.8:1-5). And also during the Tribulation, even more
dramatic events in the Middle East will not be signs of the end itself,
that is, of our Lord's imminent return (Matt.24:6-8).
But it is good to take note of these things . . . especially if that
spurs us on to redouble our efforts to spiritually prepare when we
become aware that the amount of time left to do so is certainly not
unlimited.
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Hebrews 10:24-25 NIV
Re: "Need to go back and reread coming tribulation." Good idea!
As often mentioned, I reread these materials too (currently working my
way through the Peter series
again).
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #6:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
I have been struggling to understand how "Love" for your neighbor can be
applied especially in light of the butcher's who murdered. The Muslim's
all over the world are uprising with hate for Israel and the United
States, especially from universities.
My deep concern is this: How can we be expected to love our neighbor,
let's say the Muslims who have brutally murdered little babies, by
chopping off their heads in front of their parents, and shooting
families in cold blood, in front of the families, etc., etc. I just
don't understand how someone can have love for these kinds of people who
are following Satan himself, for he is behind it. Can you please explain
to me how, or with what kind of Love we must have, according to God's
Word?
At present, having seen the News lately, perhaps I should stop watching
it, because it really gets me upset.
Again, I don't know how it is humanly possible for someone who does
these kinds of murders, can actually be loved as our neighbors.
I would appreciate any advice you may offer.
Blessings to you,
Your friend,
Response #6:
We are all upset by these current events, my friend. And we are all within our rights to be "righteously indignant" about what has happened. But we have to remember that "the wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God" (Jas.1:20). And there is also this:
(26) When you are upset, don't give in to sin; don't let the sun set while you are still upset (i.e., don't brood over this irritation). (27) That will only give the devil an opportunity.
Ephesians 4:26-27
(4) When you are upset, don't give in to sin; speak words [of comfort and wisdom] to yourselves (lit., "in your hearts") while you lie on your beds (i.e., put the irritation aside before you let the day slip away; cf. Eph.4:26b above), and be still (i.e., wean yourself from irritation to peace).
Psalm 4:4
In terms of "who is my neighbor", our Lord gave us one side of that in His
telling of the good Samaritan. But that principle is often misapplied too – as
is the disingenuous remark of Cain, "Am I my brother's keeper?" Answer: No. None
of us needs a keeper. But we don't need to be murdered either.
The good Samaritan did a kind and a good thing for someone who was helpless and
posed no threat to himself whatsoever. We should do likewise when the Lord puts
such individuals directly in our path (no one says we should go out searching
for them, e.g.). In contemporary biblical terms, our "neighbor" would have been
a fellow Jew in Israel, a fellow believer today. The good Samaritan is a special
example because he went beyond a strict interpretation of that rule in mercy . .
. but not as far as one might suppose, because Samaritans and Jews were always
closer than Jews and gentiles (cf. e.g. Jn.4:4ff.; Acts 1:8; 8:5ff.).
When the Lord was about to be arrested, He told the disciples that whereas prior
to that point, while they were proclaiming the kingdom (which His contemporaries
rejected), they had no need of swords et al., that now as He was about to leave
them "he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" (Lk.2:35-36
NKJV). Meaning that robbers and bandits would have to be warded off by such means
as God would provide, not through special dispensation as was the case during
our Lord's ministry on earth.
So we don't consider criminals "neighbors" in the first place. If they were our
brothers and sisters in Christ, they wouldn't be trying to rob (or murder) us.
In terms of the unbelieving world, it is true that we are expected to consider
love (agape) the touchstone of all we do. What is such love? Love does NOT mean
that we have to invite Nazis or Communists out to brunch. It does NOT mean that
we need to advocate on their behalf either. We oppose ALL evil (although we
prudently stay away from politics if we are wise). Love means tolerance. Love
means wishing the best for everyone. But love does not mean being stupid. So
since God wants all to be saved, we want that too. And we are happy to give the
gospel to anyone who is willing to receive it, but we do NOT throw "pearls
before swine" (i.e., those who are definitely NOT interested in coming to the
Lord as they make clear from their words and deeds: Matt.7:6).
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1st John 3:15 NKJV
Even clear hatred is a sign that someone is not to be trusted – how much less if
we are talking about actual murder?
Biblically speaking, "loving" doesn't mean "liking", and does not entail having
or seeking relationships with others. It does mean comporting ourselves as
ambassadors for Jesus Christ, always acting in humility and grace, and "always
be[ing] ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope
that is in you, with meekness and fear" (1Pet.3:15 NKJV).
Applying Christian principles to our lives in this evil world is only ever
effectively carried out by mature believers who have developed the ability to
exercise discernment in the Spirit (Prov.8:8-9; Ps.119:66; Eph.5:10;
Phil.1:9-11; Heb.5:14). Given how rotten the world is getting by the hour, all
the more reason to commit ourselves to spiritual growth with ever more vigor.
Here are some links which talk about these matters:
Christian Love: The Golden Rule, Christian Military Service and Self-Defense
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #7:
Thank you so much, This has shaken my memory and I am grateful to you for
reminding me.
May you be blessed above measure.
You are a wonderful friend to me, who has helped me tremendously in my spiritual
growth.
I cannot thank the LORD enough nor you for you help.
Studying Hebrews is fascinating.
Your friend,
Response #7:
Thank you!
Question #8:
Hi Bob,
After reading "Eschatology Issues CXIII," I just had to chime in. While I agree
there are no prophecies for the church age, at least that I can read, there are
certainly prophecies unfolding today. Arabs and kindred have claimed decent from
Ishmael which seemed skeptical. Recent events with Hamas and Israel though
should convinced anyone of the truth of the whole Bible if not convinced before.
Genesis 16:10-12 predicts Ishmael will be a "wild ass of a man" was borne out a
week ago Saturday. War is brutal and barbaric but to my knowledge, no forces
have beheaded infants. Many infants have been killed in war. My Lai comes to
mind or the fire bombings of Berlin and Dresden, but I know of no infant
beheadings. The hatred out there is hard to grasp. And it appears to be coming
out in American college campuses. I pray you're not caught up in any of that
nonsense at U of L.
As a final note: there are plenty of miracles happening today. The return of
life to the prairie down here is as miraculous as anything I would hope to see.
A resurrection of sorts. Of course, that's the way it was designed. Our drought
was only four+ months. I don't know what we'll do during three and a half years
of drought. Manna would be interesting. Do you know of anyone who has tried to
duplicate it? Would that even be possible?
Be well and safe.
In our Lord,
Response #8:
Yes, I certainly do see a difference between giving building inhabitants a
heads-up on the one hand and chopping off heads on the other, between bombing
suspected military targets on the one hand and shooting rockets whose sole
purpose is to kill civilians on the other. As to Abraham and Ishmael, no one
really knows who the ancestors of the people inhabiting the Middle East are, DNA
testing notwithstanding. There have been so many invasions and displacements in
the last four millennia since the births of Ishmael and Isaac, that it would be
a real stretch to try and make that connection (I understand that many do so for
their own political purposes).
As to miracles, indeed, the fact that any of us are still here and that we all
have not been eliminated by the devil and his followers is a miracle – since it
is due to God's power, intervention and restraint alone. So really everything we
see is a miracle, judged from that point of view. We need another term,
probably, but I think you see what I'm saying. I.e., there are personally
performed signs and wonders such as Moses did in Egypt that cannot be otherwise
interpreted even by the hardest hearts. As even the magicians of Pharaoh were
finally reduced to saying, "This is the finger of God!" (Ex.8:19).
We do have "that" organization at U of L too, and I think they were going to
march or something on the global Jihad day, but I didn't see or hear anything so
it probably didn't amount to much here (a good thing).
Re: manna, not that I know of (according to scripture, "it was like white
coriander seed, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey": Ex.16:13;
cf. Num.11:7). But I wouldn't be surprised if we receive something of the sort
to get us through the Tribulation if need be – or perhaps a bag of flour and a
cruse of oil that never run out (1Ki.17:16). We can trust the Lord no matter
what: that is the one thing I know for certain.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #9:
Hi Bob,
If nothing else, the Hamas barbarians seem to be fulfilling what Genesis
described. But then, the love of many has grown cold. Numbers I see in
headlines about casualties in the cities exceeds Tet casualties, if I
remember right. 60 shot in one recent weekend in Chicago alone. Satan is
getting quite active. I'm thankful my time is about up. You're right. If
things are getting this bad now, the years of Tribulation will be a
horror.
In our Lord,
Response #9:
Re: "the years of Tribulation will be a horror", that is certainly true, but much more for unbelievers than for us who trust in Jesus Christ. We know for sure that He is always with us, "even to the end of the age" (Matt.28:20). He will bring us safely through according to God's specific plan for us, whether deliverance before it begins, or preserving us all the way to the end so as to see Him return while we are yet in these temporary shells, or giving us the special grace to witness to Him through martyrdom. Whatever betides, He loves us and we love Him and nothing can separate us from His love (Rom.8:35-39).
And we know that, for those who love God, He works everything together for good – for those who have been called according to His plan.
Romans 8:28
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #10:
Hi Bob,
I believe you are correct in that there's no one else in whom we can
trust. Government is as reliable as (fill in the blank.) There appears
to no "union" of states. My conclusion is that the US is dead. There is
nothing to believe in except Christ. We appear to be in the "wars and
rumors of wars" stage and I expect this to continue. We are in the
sights of evil for His name's sake and I expect that to continue, too.
I look for a "peacekeeper" to rise in the next couple of years. That's
the one I believe we should be on the watch for. Of course, none of this
really matters to me in the long run. I'm ready to go whenever called.
But for others, it's a concern. Of course, no one pays attention to what
I think, so they're on their own. That raises the question of how we
should respond to those who don't believe. Or, should we respond?
I'm not an evangelical type so this is difficult.
In our Lord,
Response #10:
While it would be nice to have a time of respite, it sure doesn't look like it's working out that way, does it? The "wars and rumors of wars" is actually also referring to the Tribulation and that warning is meant to keep believers from assuming that the end is here before it actually arrives. Things will be so bad that I'm sure there will be many times when people will say/think, "it can't get any worse!" Well it can – and that certainly goes for today as well. At least we can expect the news to continue to be "not boring". And we believers can be absolutely confident that the Lord is with us and will sustain us.
Cast your cares on the LORD and he will sustain you; he will never let the righteous be shaken.
Psalm 55:22 NIV
So whatever mess we find ourselves in, we can count on the Lord to bring us
safely through it in plenty of time for the next one – all the way until we see
our dear Savior face to face.
As to the exact way in which antichrist will manifest himself, warrior or
peacemaker, left or right – or maybe some unique combination – it's impossible
to say before the fact. Like the beginning of the Tribulation, "we'll know
it/him when we see it/him".
As to responding to "those who don't believe", whether we are talking about
giving the gospel to unbelievers or the truth to lukewarm believers, in either
circumstance, if engaging is not our particular gift – or possibly even if it is
– there's not a lot of point in trying to push things on people who are clearly
not interested in the truth. It is a real blessing when one of those rare
occasions happens and someone really wants to know the truth and is eager to
hear us explain it. But if the ears have been closed, it's not in our power to
open them (Matt.7:6; cf. Ps.58:4; Is.6:9-10).
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #11:
Hi Bob,
So far, I've not encountered one who wanted to hear. Of course,
evangelizing is not a gift with which I've been blessed. I seem to turn
people off when I try -- so I don't try anymore.
I think one if the areas in which we may disagree, is that I believe
that trends today will amplify in the tribulation. While I don't see a
sudden change in trends, after the Tribulation begins, and I believe
we'll have ample notice, the trends will increase significantly.
I have to admit, Bob, I have no idea how to further the Lord's work
except to reassure and calm down my neighbor who gets overwhelmed by
friends and fellow church-goers who are dropping dead after the covid
injection. This has been a trying time and one in which I feel
incapable.
I wish I could say I wanted to save the world, but I have to admit, I
would be delighted if I could just save myself.
These are trying times my friend. I pray I have the wisdom and strength
to survive it.
In our Lord,
Response #11:
I don't disagree that all the satanic trends we see throughout history
and today as well will continue. It's a matter of degrees. So the "four
horsemen" trends of Revelation chapter six don't really express anything
new: 1) white horse: there have always been conquerors, but antichrist
will be on an entirely new level, the first to actual gain a measure of
control over the entire world; 2) red horse: there have always been
periods of civil discord, but during the Tribulation this will span the
globe and be more intense and cause more disruption in a shorter period
of time than anything previously experienced (this is a key element in
the beast's rise to power); 3) black horse: there have always been
famines in diverse places, but I've never heard of dearth being
worldwide to the extent that everyone except the beast's elite will be
basically existing on a subsistence level; 4) pale-green horse: and
there have been plagues and periods of high mortality throughout history
as well, but here we are talking about the great majority of the world's
population dying with the span of just seven years. So there's nothing
new in these trends – but the magnitude of each will be such so as to
approximate a "new thing".
In terms of "what to do", you are doing it! 1) We pray as you pray; 2)
We encourage our fellow believers as you are doing – more than your
neighbor: you are an encouragement to me (and to others who read our
correspondence); 3) We spread the Word as we are able, and that is what
you are doing, not just when you salt your conversation with the Word
but also when you email these questions and observations: they are
helpful to the whole Ichthys community; 4) We endeavor to grow closer to
the Lord daily through the truth as you are doing: that is how we become
the "salt" we can be. We can't really affect things by political action
(it's a fool's game to try and very dangerous spiritually), but God
honors a vibrant remnant in any country and blesses it for their sake,
and you are certainly part of said "salty remnant" along with all who
are putting spiritual growth in the top priority position in their
lives. If more did so, there is no telling what good might come out of
what looks so bad; and if things look bad because so few are doing their
Christian "job", I shudder to think how much worse things would be if it
weren't for the likes of you and other brothers and sisters who love the
Lord AND are acting on that love in the proper way.
Re: "saving ourselves and others", here is what I read in
scripture:
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1st Timothy 4:16 NIV
Re: "I pray I have the wisdom and strength to survive it." One thing I know by faith, resolutely and absolutely so: WHATEVER we need to survive and actually thrive, the Lord is gracious and just to provide that to us no matter what. Our job is to trust Him to do so.
Those who know your name trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.
Psalm 9:10 NIV
Keep on fighting the good fight, my friend!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #12:
Thank you, Bob, for your encouraging words. It looks bleak out there at
times. As it turns out, there are times I need encouragement. This is
one. Thank you.
In our Lord,
Response #12:
My pleasure.
We all need that – and that is why we are here for each other as the
Church of Jesus Christ, to be "encouraging one another – and all the
more as you see the Day approaching" (Heb.10:25b NIV).
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #13:
Thanks Bob,
I totally agree. I am reading yesterday's emails today as I seemed to
have lost a day. Someone mentioned the Queen's passing and whether she
was a believer. Obviously only God knows the true state of her heart but
in a official capacity she had "low Protestant church views" (whatever
that means) of a distinctly ecumenical flavour. You can see all her
Christmas speeches online and she never in 20 years referred to Jesus'
deity even once. Instead she referred to Him as a teacher who we can all
learn from His good example. So the promoted beliefs were not just
ecumenical within Christianity but also distinctly interfaith.
All of her family are Freemasons and the way that Masons see Jesus is
almost the same as Theosophists, in that all religions have some truth
in it and we can learn as much from Ghandi and Mohammed as we can from
Jesus. That they are all "wise teachers" or Avatars with good life
lessons that we can all learn how to "do better" through. That we can
just pick and choose whichever we want to follow personally and it is
all pretty much the same thing. That the 'lightbearer' is irrelevant, it
is the 'light' or teaching that matters (this is a core Masonic belief).
In the 2000 Christmas Speech she said:
"This spirituality can be seen in the teachings of other great
faiths. Of course religion can be divisive, but the Bible, the Koran and
the sacred texts of the Jews and Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs, are all
sources of divine inspiration and practical guidance passed down through
the generations.”
This is that belief that wisdom is wisdom and peace is peace and we
shouldn't get worked up about labels as long as we are being 'good'
people. (A recent video made by Jordan Peterson who is a very popular
Canadian talking head at the moment captured the same sentiment when
addressing both Christians and Muslims in separate videos. He said we
shouldn't get "upset about trinkets and details".)
In a recent article in the Guardian it said that our soon to be King,
Prince Charles has a more "high church" preference with a personal
weakness for the Orthodox church's rituals and traditions. Like the
Queen before him, Prince Charles believes that ecumenism and interfaith
is the way forward and we shouldn't be divisive over faith and that is
what holds us back and keeps us from peace. He also thinks that Climate
Change is the most important thing to happen to us all right now and is
very instrumental both with the UN and World Economic Forum to halt
Climate Change through their "Great Reset" plans.
So the Royal Family, just like the Pope and all other heads of religions
all over the world believe that an interfaith religion is the answer to
everything and that Climate Change is the only thing that any of us need
to worry about. I was talking to ___ about this today and he was shocked
that the Queen never referred to Jesus as God even once but was quite
happy to hear about her interfaith views. This is the problem about the
interfaith movement. It all seems so reasonable and tolerant and
friendly that we'll all be skunks at a garden party when we say "NO!" to
all of it!
Anyway, thought this might be of some interest to you and your readers.
Probably not all that surprising given the current Geopolitical climate
and the secular humanistic worldview that is so prevalent these days.
Like you have said before, anything and everything will be permitted in
the one world religion of the Antichrist except the truth of Jesus
Christ.
In Him,
Response #13:
Thanks for this info about the queen and royals. One never knows about
such things. I've just answered an email about Luther, and there are
plenty of things he wrote which are encouraging to read but plenty of
others which makes us wonder about his salvation. This is often the case
with famous people. As you say, only God knows for sure.
In terms of antichrist, yes indeed: he will most likely be a religious
as well as a political figure, and in his case religion and politics
will be completely blended. Much of the "interfaith" trend you report is
likely to intensify as the beast prepares to make his entrance onto the
world stage. Here are some links on that:
The False Prophet's Administration of Antichrist's False Religion
The Rise of False Teaching in the Tribulation
The Persuasiveness of antichrist's religion
Characteristics of the false religion
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #14:
Hi Bob,
It was interesting to read the emails posted about the Queen's funeral. I'm very
aware too about the Antichrist and the events to come from
studying BB 2B and
currently the Coming Tribulation. None of my family or me were "swept up into
the hysteria" but I did watch the Queen's funeral service with ___ who is an
unbeliever and would have watched it anyway because it's a part of our country's
history.
While we were watching, ___ listened quietly to every piece of scripture that
was read out in the service including John 14:6 - "I am the way and the truth
and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me". __ commented on how
much scripture they had read and asked me a question about what something meant.
These opportunities don't come up very often but I love it when they do. I was
very happy to answer the question.
I don't like funerals either but I don't regret the time I spent with ___
watching the Queen's funeral service. I'm thankful to the Lord that something
positive came out of this no matter how small. As Christians we should be making
the most of every opportunity for Christ.
Walk wisely in regard to those outside [the Church], redeeming the time (i.e., making the most of every opportunity).
Colossians 4:5
Making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.
Ephesians 5:16
I believe the Lord can work through all kinds of situations to speak into a
person's heart. I will continue to pray for ___'s salvation and be ready for
more opportunities to answer any questions. It's important that we continue to
do all that we can for those the Lord has given to us and we keep trusting in
Him.
In Jesus
Response #14:
I have to say that this is the one good thing about funerals, namely, the fact
that people are temporarily shaken out of their "I'll live forever" mindset and
somewhat more inclined to be responsive to the gospel. Whenever I've been
involved in one, I've always made it a point to bring out the gospel one way or
another. So they can be excellent opportunities to reach the unsaved and also to
remind fellow believers of what is really important down here. Life is short and
we are all headed in the same general direction. Only the "altitude" is in
question.
Also, I certainly apologize if I said anything amiss in that posting. The UK is
not my country, after all, so it's not really my place to say anything. As I
tried to suggest at the end of my reply, it's not as if we over here in the
states have anything to say to anyone else, given the absolutely nutty nature of
our own government and its questionable actions in all things on all levels.
Thanks again for all your help, my friend!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #15:
Hi Bob,
My experience and point of view about the Queen issue might be different
but I know we all have the same concern and desire for the spiritual
safety and salvation of others.
I think we need to find the right balance. We need to be alert and aware
of what's going on around us and how the devil works while at the same
time not being too wrapped up in it or getting too distressed about it.
If we're getting too upset about what's happening in the world now then
that's not great for us heading into the Tribulation. We can be aware of
what is going on without being dragged down by it. I guess we shouldn't
be so surprised anymore about what happens in this world. Satan is the
"god of this world" but he can only operate within the boundaries God
has set for him. Our God is sovereign.
I'm sure we're going to have many more "dress rehearsals" leading up to
the Tribulation and although it's not easy I think they're good for us.
They're great opportunities to put what we have learnt and believed of
the Word into practice and to grow spiritually. To grow closer to the
Lord and to strengthen our faith. It's all good preparation.
Something that's been on my heart to share this week is how it's also
very important to remember that we have been called to peace. It is our
birthright as children of God and we should actively strive to hold on
to that peace and rest in our Lord.
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the
world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 14:27
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this
world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world".
John 16:33
You will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast, because he
trusts in you.
Isaiah 26:3
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one
body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
Colossians 3:15
There's so much about all of this in BB 6A
including peace and joy. Steven's BB 6A recordings are great as well (link).
I would encourage everyone to study this - it's brilliant!
Thanks so much for all you do for us, Bob - I really do appreciate it.
Keeping you in my prayers as well as others on the Ichthys list.
In Jesus
Response #15:
Thank you!
I could have written your email myself – and would be happy to have done
so.
Also, it's very good of you to be praying for these individuals on the
prayer list (link).
I have a feeling that not many people get around to it.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #16:
Thank you kindly Dr. Bob.
Appreciate your much-valued prayers. I have committed to serious Bible
Studies this year in preparation for Ministry. I looked up L.S. Chafer's
Systematic Theology online and downloaded a few ebooks from
www.pdfdrive.com but I read couple reviews on Quora that he held a
calvinist view as many others in the late 1800s and taught
pre-tribulation Rapture. So I guess I will stick with your Bible Basics
Series per se. I am yet to look up Unger.
What are your thoughts and recommendations of authors like Norman
Geisler, Wayne Grudem, and Robert Jensen? Are they any good? I have
gotten out of the myriad FB groups I was in, most are false teachers
(the world is full of such and FB is replete with them). Thus, it has
proved to be a waste of time, energy and resources. I have cut out other
distractions to the best of my ability to keep and maintain a
single-minded goal-oriented focus for the mission ahead.
I engage in one-on-one conversations with the few brothers and sisters I
have snagged from among the false teachers out there on FB over the
years and I have led them individually to Ichthys and encourage and
teach/correct them on their various doubts and questions. I will post
the most recent exchange on generational curses in a separate email. I
have made use of your Thoroughly Formulated piece on the topic
https://ichthys.com/mail-Blessing-Cursing-Prayer.htm
I would appreciate an addendum to the prayer request to include my
Preparation for Ministry.
In Christ Jesus - our ALL.
Response #16:
This is excellent news, my friend, and a real answer to prayer!
In my opinion, you will be much better off reading Bible Basics and the other
studies posted at Ichthys than spending time arguing with people on FB or other
social media outlets, and also much better off than wasting time on evangelical
books that aren't so solid theologically (I have heard of some but not all of
them; Unger is a good supplement as a commentator on the OT). While I admire Dr.
Chafer and having spent a lot of time on his corpus before working on mine, I do
have to say that in my opinion you'll get a lot closer to the truth through the
Basics series on Ichthys rather than plowing through his systematic theology.
I do appreciate you steering others to Ichthys. It's not everyone's cup of tea.
There aren't many "red hot" believers out there in Laodicea; most are lukewarm.
If they weren't they would have been "knocking so as to find" a long time ago in
most cases. But we endeavor to persevere in doing what the Lord calls us
individually to do.
I have updated your prayer request and promise to keep your preparation for
ministry in my own personal list as well.
Keep fighting the good fight, my friend!
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #17:
Thank you. Amen.
Very True. That's why I wrote that I am sticking with the resources on Ichthys
and not motivated to look beyond it. You are my God-Appointed Bible Teacher and
Mentor cum Elder Brother in The Most Holy Faith and A Spiritual father like The
Apostle Paul was to Timothy and Titus and gang to our friend and I. I am not
going to be touching anything from others with a 100-feet pole.
What you wrote about the lackadaisical attitude wearing Laodiceans rings true.
We must plod along duty bound and also for the rewards kept in store beyond them
Pearly Gates.
Thank you kindly for the update to the prayer request brother Bob. The enemy has
been intensifying his attacks to stymie my progress. So I would appreciate
intercessory prayers at this time. I am not stealing any more of your time as
it's posting day for you.
You take good care brother
In Christ Jesus
Response #17:
It's always good to hear from you – and thanks for the good words.
You are in my prayers daily, my friend.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #18:
Robert, with everything that is going on I wanted to get your take on Israel
conflict. If I am right you do not believe in the rapture ? Correct. I do study
many of your comments and writings because I like to get different views of the
Bible and I feel yours is very good. I also study the pastor below and his
teachings. This is his take on what is going on and I was just wanting to get
yours also.
https://robertcliftonrobinson.com/2023/10/19/timeline-for-the-last-days-everything-is-centered-on-israel-and-the-jews/
Also, I had to chuckle when you sent me the follow up email about the other ___
in Australia. That is not me however I hope to see that country one day.
Blessings,
Response #18:
Yes, sorry about the confusion! LA is a long way from Brisbane.
On the link, re: "The Bible predicted all of the events we are seeing today
in Israel", I would have to heartily disagree. Many so-called prophecy
experts harp on 1948 as if there were magic in that date, failing to understand
that our present means of calculating dates was not even invented until the 6th
century A.D. (by a Catholic monk). It is an arbitrary system, based on the
thought-to-be year of Christ's birth, but even that is off by two years. In
short, there is no unfulfilled prophecy which will be fulfilled until the
Tribulation begins. The Church Age was always the mystery age (cf. e.g.,
Col.1:27; and
see the link), and since it was unknown to prophets of the past
(e.g., Col.1:26; 1Pet.1:12), they weren't given to prophecy about it. All of the
prophecies regarding events in the Middle East found in prophecy will be
fulfilled . . . during the Tribulation and immediately afterwards. But they are
not being fulfilled today.
That doesn't mean we are oblivious to current events or sensitive to the fact the end is drawing near. For example, obviously, for there to be a war between antichrist and Christ fought over the remnant of Jews in the land of Israel, there had to be a re-population of that land by some of the Jewish people (a minority compared to the worldwide population at present). So it is true that events of the past and present and near future are shaping things, but that has always been the case. The point apropos of this discussion is that there aren't any specific prophecies being fulfilled today nor are there any on the point of being fulfilled until the Tribulation begins. We know, from scripture, the essential course of Tribulation events (this is all contained in the Coming Tribulation series at the link).
It is true, however, that, there being no "easy out" for believers before the Tribulation begins (see the link) – far from it as many of us who live into that period will be martyred for our faith – it does behoove us who are putting Jesus Christ first in our lives to take note of all such things which do give an indication of historical events trending in the direction of the end. But this will happen according to God's perfect plan, not a minute before and not a minute later. I have suggested that it will likely begin very soon. If it is true that the crucifixion/resurrection happened in A.D. 33, and if it is true that just as the gentile age lasted 2,000 years, and just as the Age of Israel lasted 2,000 years (minus seven, Daniel's final week), that the Church Age likely also lasts 2,000 years (with these three combined and added to the Millennium equaling 7,000 years, the seven millennial days which parallel the seven days of re-creation in Genesis chapters 1-2; see the link), then we should expect the return of Christ in 2033. That would make the seven year Tribulation begin in 2026 (see the link for the assumptions upon which this interpretation is based and for more details).
So it is good for believers to be asking these sorts of questions, IF it encourages them to do what they should have been doing all along, namely, growing spiritually at as rapid a pace as possible. Our Lord told us very explicitly that the Tribulation will be a time of "great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now – and never to be equaled again." (Matt.24:21 NIV). And the ONLY preparation for it that will do anyone any good is spiritual preparation. We are going to need strong faith based on truth, necessitating the building up of that faith muscle through believing and applying as much truth as possible ahead of time in order to make it through that difficult time with our faith intact. After all, fully one third of the Church will apostatize from the pressure of the Tribulation.
"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Matthew 24:10-13 NIV
"However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"
Luke 18:8b NIV
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #19:
Thank you Robert for your insight. I want to give you a link to a video
of David Guzik teaching the 3 beliefs of the rapture. David is also
someone I study quite a bit. He is giving his church the different
beliefs of the Rapture. This is all confusing to me and I am trying very
hard to lock on to one that will fit with the biblical scripture. When
you get time would you mind watching it and let me know what you think.
He is preaching from 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
Thanks so much,
Response #19:
No offense, but, to be honest, with a full time job and a life in addition to this ministry, I don't really have time to evaluate other peoples ministries, reading their books or watching their videos in order to vet them or criticize them. That is the job of apologetics and, as I often remark, this is a Bible teaching ministry not an apologetic ministry. What I am willing to do is to answer any specific questions you may have about something this person (or anyone else) has told you about this issue. That said, there is a great deal about the so-called pre-tribulation "rapture" at Ichthys, and I would be surprised if there is anything about this false doctrine not treated in the various links. I gave you one last time which leads to many more. Here is a slightly longer (though not exhaustive) list.
The 'Rapture' and other Eschatological Issues
Eschatology Issues XXIV: the 'Rapture' et al.
The pre-Trib 'Rapture': so called 'imminence' and other false proofs refuted
Dangers of the Pre-Trib Rapture False Teaching
The Origin and the Danger of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture Theory
Three False Doctrines that Threaten Faith
I have to say, also, that I am mystified as to why anyone would teach
three different versions of any biblical doctrine. Our job as
pastor-teachers is to find out the truth and teach the truth, not to
offer a Smorgasbord of different positions to those who come to us for
spiritual sustenance. Offering three options would be like giving a
hungry person a banana, a block of wood and a poisoned apple and telling
them to try them all and see which they like best.
To be blunt, there is no resurrection before Christ's second advent
return. Period. It is not in the Bible anywhere. It is a feel-good false
doctrine which evangelicals adopted a couple of hundred years ago when
it caught on precisely because it felt so good. But it is a dangerous
lie, dangerous, because it disposes Christians to feel that there is no
downside to lack of spiritual preparation even though we can all see the
end is drawing nearer. One third of the Church is prophesied to
apostatize in the Great Apostasy (2Thes.2:3;
see the link), and no doubt
a great many of these will be those deceived by the "rapture" lie who
enter the Tribulation without adequate spiritual preparation . . .
because they wrongly thought it unnecessary.
(15) For we tell you this by the Lord's own Word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (Gk. parousia, i.e., the Second Advent which brings the Great Tribulation to a close) will not precede those who have fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the archangel's blast on the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first (in resurrection), (17) then we who are alive and remain will be snatched up together with them in clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and in this way we shall always be with the Lord.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
Nothing in the context of this passage even hints that it might occur at any time other than the second advent, "the coming of the Lord" in v.15 above, his parousia (which means "second advent" in the Bible: see the link), just as our Lord Himself told us it would:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31
The passage above directly teaches the resurrection at the Lord's second advent return, and the trumpet sounding is the sign also at 1st Thessalonians 4:16 showing that in the Thessalonians passage Paul is also speaking about the second advent, not about some "rapture" occurring prior to the Tribulation.
In short, the pre-trib "rapture" is something no one would ever come up
with on their own through reading the Bible, a false teaching which
people only believe because they have been taught to believe it, wrongly
so, and continue to believe even when they read passages like the above
which directly refute it – because they want to believe they couldn't
possibly have to endure the Tribulation.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #20:
No offense taken Robert. I was not sure if you would have time but I
wanted to ask. I do have some scripture that may explain my take on
this. Some have understood Paul’s teaching concerning the delivery of
believers from the “wrath to come” (1Th.
1:10) as describing their exemption from the wrath of judgment which
unbelievers will undergo for rejecting Christ (John 3:18-19, 36). But
everywhere in Scripture, the benefits of redemption are fully and
immediately applied at the time of redemption. Believers have eternal
life (John 3:15; Acts 13:48; 1Jn. 5:13). The wrath to come does not
speak of the potential judgment of believers which has already been
averted by their saving faith, but the “hour of trial which shall come
upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth” (Rev. 3:10
).
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be
saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were
reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been
reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Rom. 5:9-10) [emphasis
added]
The justification is present tense and entirely complete. The believer
stands totally and completely justified the moment he comes to faith.
The wrath here is future.
The wrath of God here [1Th. 1:10] is future, and hence, cannot refer to
the general wrath of God against sin which is a present reality. This
wrath is future. While Hell and the Lake of Fire are also future, they
cannot be what this passage is referring to. By virtue of salvation, the
believer is already redeemed from Hell. . . . the wrath that the Church
is being delivered from is the wrath of the Great Tribulation. He is
coming for the specific purpose of delivering the Church from the wrath
to come, namely, the Tribulation period.
The salvation spoken of here [1Th. 5:9] is future, and so cannot be
soteriological, which is a present reality. The salvation here is
eschatological, referring to the redemption of the body which will occur
at the Rapture. It is this salvation that the Church has been appointed
to and not to the wrath of the Day of the Lord.
Also this just for thought, in the first case, we need to recognize that
“the Bible” has changed form over time. Originally, the Bible was
written in Hebrew and Greek. But for most of the history of the Church,
the Bible used by the majority of people was not in these original
languages. Instead, people used a translation in their native language,
just as we use an English translation today. And for the greater part of
the history of the Church, the translation used by most in the West was
the Latin Vulgate. This was “the Bible” for over a thousand years—and
dominated Bible study and doctrine for a period far longer than any
other translation.5 It reigned supreme in the West until the time of the
Reformation when men began to return to study the original language
texts and translate them into the vulgar tongues (e.g., German,
English).
The term rapture means “to seize” and “to carry off,” and is taken from
the phrase “caught up” in 1Th. 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate which reads:
Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in
nubibus obviam Christo in aera, et sic sempe cum Domino erimus. [Then
we, who are alive, who remain, together will be caught up with them in
the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so always with the Lord we
will be.]
So we see that the term “rapture” is in the Bible—it just depends which
Bible you are talking about! If you mean one of the recent translations
which have only been on the scene for decades, or even the KJV which is
hundreds of years old, then you won’t find the term. But if you are
talking about the Grand Daddy of all Bibles which ruled for a millennium
(the Vulgate), then the term is indeed there!
Even if we could not find the actual term “rapture” in a Bible, it would
not indicate that the doctrine of the Rapture is not taught within
Scripture. After all, we don’t find the terms Trinity, omnipresence, or
omniscience in Scripture, but these doctrines are clearly taught by
Scripture. So all that is necessary to establish the truth of a teaching
is whether the concept is found in Scripture. Here too, the Rapture
passes the test.
So all this being said it is not that I disagree with your study on the
Rapture I just like to get different views on what people have studied
on any part of the Bible. The main thing I think we both can agree on is
no matter when he comes I feel we will both be ready. Thank you so much
for your insight I learn much from you website.
Blessings from your friend,
Response #20:
I assure you, I read my Greek and Hebrew Bibles every day (if you wish to know
about my academic credentials, they are posted at the link).
Reading the Latin Vulgate not so much. I get enough Latin at work (three Latin
classes today, one Greek), and the Vulgate is not a particularly valuable
translation or witness to the biblical texts.
In terms of "wrath", God's anger is an anthropopathism (see
the link). This is a human emotion attributed to Him in order to help
us understand His displeasure about certain human behaviors in a way we can
relate to. We find Him "angry" at many points in scripture (e.g., Ex.4:14;
Ps.18:7ff. et passim in scripture). There is no single "wrath" or
anger as your argument assumes.
So I'm sorry to have to disabuse you, but even if it were true that the "wrath"
mentioned in the passages you quote were not referring to condemnation (which it
clearly is, even prima facie), that would make no difference to the question of
a supposed "pre-trib rapture"). Or as the Lord says to Jeremiah, "What does
straw have to do with grain?" (Jer.23:28). Answer: nothing, since they are two
different things and substantively so.
Even if we accepted that the "wrath" in these passages was NOT eternal
condemnation, that would not logically mean that it WAS the "wrath" spoken about
in Revelation. That would be a huge logical jump and one which is not even
hinted at in the Bible, going something like this: "Because we are saved from
wrath, that must mean we won't have to go through the Tribulation where there is
wrath (?), and that must in turn mean that we will be raptured out of it ahead
of time (??)". Don't you think, if there really were a resurrection before the
Tribulation that the Holy Spirit would have been a bit more explicit about it?
No Bible teacher worth his salt would ever construct a teaching of the pre-trib
rapture based upon this sort of flimsy, faulty and deficient argumentation given
above.
That's what I said before. The rapture is not in the Bible. And the "wrath"
argument is typical of defenses for this false doctrine cooked up AFTER someone
has already believed the false teaching (see
the link). To reiterate, this is NOT a conclusion (i.e., that there must be
a pre-trib rapture) that any reasonable person would conclude based upon a
supposed different meaning of "wrath" in some of Paul's epistles.
And of course to accept this supposition, i.e., that wrath in 1st Thessalonians
1:10, e.g., cannot be referring to eternal condemnation because believers are
"already saved", is to misunderstand salvation and the way the Bible talks about
it (see
the link). We are saved. True! Hallelujah! But we are also "being saved"
(e.g., Lk.13:22; 1Cor.1:18; 15:2; 2Cor.2:15), and we "will be saved" (e.g.,
Matt.10:22; 24:13; Rom.5:9-10; 1Cor.3:15; 1Pet.1:5; 1:8-9; 2:2; Heb.9:28).
[You] who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1st Peter 1:5 NKJV
So it is incorrect to conclude that by saying we believers "will be saved from
the wrath to come" that this means anything other than that we will not be
condemned . . . as long as we persevere. One of the reasons that scripture puts
things the way it does no doubt is to avoid that other prominent feel-good false
doctrine, "absolute eternal security" (see
the link). We are eternally secure – as believers. But since
only believers are saved (Jn.3:18), those who fall away back into unbelief are
lost. It's called apostasy (see
the link). So all the more reason for Paul in 1st Thessalonians 1:10 and
elsewhere to reassure us that we WILL receive that salvation "ready to be
revealed in the last time", just as long as we stay faithful to the Lord
(2Tim.2:13).
One last point on wrath. That "anger" of the Lord described throughout
Revelation is always directed towards unbelievers, not believers,
so that believers in the Tribulation are not subject to that anger/wrath in any
case, any more than the exodus generation was subject to the Lord's anger
directed towards Pharaoh and the Egyptians – in fact they were protected from
it. Believers have nothing to worry about from all the plagues and judgments
coming from the Lord during the Tribulation because we belong to Him and the
judgments resulting from His wrath are for our benefit, not to harm us but the
people who are harming us. Our problem will be antichrist and his followers who
will be persecuting us – it is their actions that arouses God's wrath . . . on
our behalf. So rapture proponents are completely misunderstanding the entire
nature and purpose of those seven years. Small wonder, since their only desire
is to avoid them, not learn anything substantive about them ahead of time. That
is the danger. Going in unprepared. That is the one way to actually incur God's
wrath in the end: joining the beast and his followers, falling away so as NOT to
be saved from the wrath to come. Ironic that by wrongly believing in an escape
from "that day", "that day" may well "come upon them unawares" (Lk.21:34;
1Thes.5:4) . . . and very sad in the case of all who succumb..
Finally, yes, I learned the principle parts of rapio and the basics of
Latin grammar as an undergraduate and I now teach them to undergraduates. I am
aware of the derivation of the technical term "rapture" which is why I usually
say "pre-trib rapture". We are ALL looking forward to the resurrection. But we
will have to wait until the end of the Tribulation for that blessed hope, not
anticipate it at the beginning. All who are doing the latter are in for a very
rude shock.
I'm not a fan of "different viewpoints" when it comes to Bible teaching. No
believer is qualified to play umpire on all manner of doctrinal disagreements.
Don't get me wrong. We all have a right to believe what we want and think what
we want. The problem is that without accepting the authority of some Bible
teacher (a good one, one hopes), it is impossible to grow up spiritually. Why?
Because only what is believed is converted by the Spirit into "full-knowledge" (epignosis)
in a person's heart. Which makes sense. How can something you really don't
believe possibly be of any benefit when times get tough? The Spirit only uses
truth actually believed to guide us. So please take my advice and find a good
"tree" dispensing good fruit, stick with it, and grow. There is no other way to
please the Lord and to prepare for what's coming.
In Jesus,
Bob L.