Question #1:
Hello again Dr. Luginbill,
I truly appreciate you writing me back. I have been reading your literary
offerings on Ichthys. There are ideas so profound
I'm ashamed to admit I am still troubled by my remarriage situation. The
Catholic Doctrine that I am living in mortal sin has me very concerned for our
souls. I guess I am still looking for some sort of biblical hope that we are
"ok".
My thought is that with your extensive knowledge in the matters of ancient
Greece and the language as well as the Bible, you could give me your take on a
few verses.
In 1 Corinthians 7: 8-9, Paul states that umarried and widows should marry
rather than burn with lust and then later references that those loosed from a
wife could marry and it would not be a sin. My wife's study bible has
"unmarried" in the greek "agamos" to include divorced people. I think this might
be true as he uses the same word "agamos" for the separated woman in vs. 11. Is
it possible here Paul was saying it is ok for divorced people to remarry? Also,
do you believe his repeated command to "stay as you are" could mean for the
remarried to stay married?
Also I have read much debate on whether or not in Luke 16:18 and Matthew 19:9
Jesus uses the tense of "commits" to mean a one time act or an ongoing perpetual
adultery.
I know you are probably busy getting ready for a new fall semester and I
apologize for taking your time. I would be truly grateful for any input would
really help me and/or any advice you could give that would give me peace. I
still pray every day for guidance and relief of guilt but I don't receive it.
Yours in our Christ,
Response #1:
On "guidance and relief of guilt", this comes with spiritual growth. And
spiritual growth comes with consistent Bible reading, Bible study,
prayer and application. It sounds from the first paragraph that you are
on that track (assuming you are reading more than just the marriage
materials at Ichthys, that is), so have patience. No one gained
spiritual maturity in a day or a week or probably even a month. And in
terms of prayer, it is very common for the Lord to have us wait a bit
rather than to answer us immediately. Why? Because He doesn't love us?
God forbid! Because He DOES love us – and we can't grow unless we have a
little resistance, a little testing to help in the process. Just as in
exercise. Astronauts in zero gravity get out of shape pretty fast, e.g.
In terms of "Catholic Doctrine", I would take heart if what you are
doing is the opposite of what they are recommending because they are
wrong – often 180 degrees wrong – on just about everything.
The Bible is the place to look. When it comes to marriage and divorce
and remarriage, I'm sure you've read what I've posted at Ichthys. But no
matter what scriptures you read, you're not going to get all the
information you want or the precise answers to the precise questions you
have; and no matter what commentator you read, you will also likely not
get the "proof" you're looking for – and will often find things that
only confuse you further or fill you with dread and guilt.
Point: all believers are saved (Jn.3:18). That is the fundamental
starting point for all such discussions and not only about marriage.
Jesus died for all of your sins – and the sins of the entire world. No
one is going to the lake of fire because of sins – because Jesus has
already paid the entire price for them all. Damnation is for those who
reject the gospel, who reject this fact that Jesus paid for them, and
who refuse to claim the salvation He offers through simple faith in Him
and His sacrifice. So those who rely on good works, who have confidence
because they've "never divorced", this will avail them naught at the
last judgment if they have also "never believed". But for those who have
believed, marriage, divorce, remarriage – and anything else that
conjures up guilt, be it a sin or not – have nothing to do with our
judgment as believers. We are not going to be at that last judgment
where all are thrown into the lake of fire. We are going to be evaluated
before Christ's judgment seat for our spiritual growth, progress and
production – or lack thereof.
The devil loves this "divorce-remarriage" trap because anyone caught in
it is likely to be spending all their time and energy worrying about it
rather than doing what the Lord wants them to do – or worse yet, taking
unauthorized and foolish action in response to false teaching that will
ruin their lives and the lives of others and make things so much worse
for all.
On our Lord's statements. Isn't the Lord's main point of castigating the
Pharisees that they were for selfish reasons ruining the lives of their
innocent spouses by divorcing them in order to marry younger women? That
is foul and evil – anyone could see that, I hope. And isn't our Lord's
purpose in saying this to head off others doing the same wicked thing?
There is nothing in His teaching on this subject that suggests that
someone who actually IS married should now GET divorced. That is turning
His teaching on its head because it will throw yet another woman out
into the street. The tense of the verb is not an issue because there is
only one present tense in Greek (unlike English); so what it means is
that in marrying someone illicitly, that act of marriage is equivalent
to adultery because really the man should never have divorced the
innocent woman in the first place.
On 1st Corinthians 7:8-9, yes, that is the way I read it; there are also
passages such as 1st Corinthians 7:39, however. If this chapter seems at
the same time definitive and yet leaving questions, there are reasons
for that: this is a complicated subject – once people complicate things.
If we followed Paul's advice, we would stay single and this wouldn't
come up. If we did as the Lord tells us and followed the Genesis model
of marriage, this wouldn't come up. But we all suffer from "hardness of
heart" to one degree or another; we are all sinners; and if we are not
overly so, what about the person we marry? The point is that especially
in our modern world where many of the restraints have been removed,
things are often complicated . . . because we are allowed to complicate
them (and if we don't, our spouses very well may).
Am I saying that some people were not wrong to get married in the first
place, or were not wrong to get divorced in the second, or were not
wrong to get remarried thereafter? Not at all. That depends on the
situation. But that is the real point here. We are not really talking
about hypotheticals. We are really concerned with actual situations. If
a person has sinned by getting married or by getting divorced or by
getting remarried, all sins have consequences, and, very importantly as
well, all actions which are not what the Lord intends have consequences,
natural consequences as well as spiritual ones. So it is well to
consider the gravity of important decisions and their rightness or
wrongness . . . BEFORE making them. If I break an egg, it cannot be
unbroken thereafter. If I marry someone, I can't "unmarry" them. Maybe
the law will allow me to get an annulment, maybe I can separate, maybe I
can get a divorce. But I DID marry the person. The same thing goes for
divorce: you cannot "un-divorce" someone. We do what we do – and we have
to live with our decisions and take responsibility for them. Then we
make the best of things, and, in terms of marriage, I have given you the
principle a number of times now that we are to maintain the status quo:
"Are you married, do not seek a divorce" (1Cor.7:27). Yes, there are
always consequences for any and all actions we take in this life which
are not 100% in the will of God.
"Is it in the will of God for me who am divorced to marry her who is
divorced?" Whatever the correct answer to that question may be, it
can only be profitably asked BEFORE getting married (and has NO business
being asked later). We are believers in Jesus Christ and are saved "by
grace through faith" in Him and what He has done for us – and our
marital status has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
"When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, when she has departed from his house, and goes and becomes another man’s wife, if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife, then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance."
Deuteronomy 24:1-4
We are not under the Law of Moses. We are operating under grace. But for
those who want to use the Law to browbeat Christians who have been
remarried or divorced into taking inadvisable actions, I find it curious
that they have no shame about counseling others to do exactly what the
Law forbids above. Just an observation.
Bottom line: you can search Sodom high and low and not find ten
righteous persons. Who are the righteous? Those who have God's
righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ (Rom.3:23; 4:5; 8:1; 8:30;
1Cor.6:11; Phil.3:9; Rev.7:14).
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
Galatians 3:11 NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
You have been justified by faith. You have been saved by grace. You are not going to be saved or lost based on your marital status.
(25b) So then [you can plainly see why] I myself [i.e., the previous Saul] am a slave to the God's law in my mind, but to sin's law in my body [not yet having died to sin]. (1) Now then [on the blessed other hand], there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus [and we are free, having died to sin].
Romans 7:25b - 8:1
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #2:
Sir, you are truly a blessing to all Christians like me who are just getting started in our growth. I can't thank you enough. God is certainly using you as a light of truth to this darkening world. Your words mean so so much to me. If there's anything I can ever do for you please let me know. I know it sounds a little strange, but I am sincere, if there's anything at all I can ever do just say the word. St. Louis isn't that far away and I'd love the opportunity to help you, give to your favorite charity, host you if you ever need a place to stay in St. Louis, etc. You friend in Christ our Savior,
Response #2:
Thanks for your kind words, my friend! They are truly appreciated. In terms of
giving, as you know this ministry does not take donations, but I do recommend
Bible Academy as a worthy
substitute (a good place to check out in any case).
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #3:
My anxiety is back about this subject. I was doing really well but I can't get it out of my head that the pastor actually told me that he tells people in there second marriages to get a divorce. That keeps going through my head that some people actually do what that man said and divorce their spouses. Ugh its really bothering me can you explain to me why people actually do what that pastor has said
Response #3:
Fighting the fight in the heart is the "high ground" of Christian warfare. This
side of the resurrection, all who are genuinely pursuing spiritual growth as our
Lord has told us to do "will be persecuted", and that means by unseen as well as
seen pressures (2Tim.3:12).
As to this "pastor", here are a couple of passages to consider:
"When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, when she has departed from his house, and goes and becomes another man’s wife, if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife, then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance."
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 NKJV
Are you married? Do not seek a divorce.
1st Corinthians 7:27
According to the first passage, remarrying a spouse once divorced who has gone on to another marriage is an abomination to the Lord. According to the second, we are directly told NOT to get divorced if married. That, by the way, is what the Lord says too. Of course people do get divorced and they do get remarried. But scripture NEVER tells anyone they SHOULD get divorced. The biblical position is that it's best to maintain the status quo, however one has gotten to that point.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
John 3:18 NKJV
These are our Lord's words too. As a believer in Jesus Christ, you are saved.
And, being a believer, nothing can snatch you out of His hands (Jn.10:28-29) as
long as you persevere in your faith (Col.1:23). Every human being sins. And
Christ has died for every single sin. If we confess our sins we believers are
forgiven and restored to fellowship with the Lord Jesus and the Father
(1Jn.1:9). The Lord died for every sin of every unbeliever too. They are not
saved on account of the fact that they refuse to believe in Christ – NOT because
of sin. For Christ has already paid for every sin.
Anyone who tells a believer that he/she is "going to hell" for any reason is
dead wrong. Why would anyone do that . . . unless they were working for Satan in
fact. So when you say "pastor", I would not dignify this individual with that
worthy title. A pastor cares for his sheep. Someone who is willing to ruin their
lives out of a sense of twisted self-righteousness is acting on legalism – like
the Catholic church. In works religions, salvation comes to those who "do what
we tell you to do" and faith has nothing to do with it. But the Bible says that
salvation is "by grace through faith" and "not of works" (Eph.2:8-9). So
works-salvation people and churches are not even saved at all.
At the last judgment, every evil person, every defiler of the truth, everyone
who has troubled believers with lies and false teaching – every unbeliever –
will be cast into the lake of fire forever, where they will be "punished with
everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the
glory of his might" (2Thes.1:9 NIV).
However much this person and people like him are aggravating you now with their
lies, that aggravation is not nearly as painful as a single moment in the lake
of fire.
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #4:
[disquisition on 1Cor.7:9 "For it is better to marry than to burn" omitted]
Response #4:
I think this is all very well-reasoned and very-well thought out. It's
important to acknowledge that we can't use the passage in question to
suggest "I have no choice but to get married NOW". That is a very
dangerous mind-set to get into. Another important point, practically
speaking, is that we cannot really KNOW we are meant to be single or
meant to be married. We can have our suspicions, but God has a way of
surprising us. Since we "are where we are" when we become Christians /
get serious about serving the Lord, the best approach is to accept where
we are and let the Lord lead us forward, being sensitive to His
guidance. If we are prejudiced one way or the other, it's bound to cause
trouble. And the Lord will, we know, give us what we need to get through
in the end, whether special empowerment or a wife. I think that's the
bottom line of all this (which is also what I got from your piece).
In Jesus our dear Lord,
Bob L.
Question #5:
Hi it's me again . I got triggered again by that pastor saying I was going to hell for my second marriage . He told me that he has asked people to divorce and I think to myself he must have so strongly believed in what he was saying to tell ppl to get a divorce. I'll be okay for a while and then it will come back and cause me so much pain and anxiety causing me to have migraines. What can I do to make myself believe I'm not going to hell? Why did he hurt people by telling them to divorce? It hurt my heart. Pls help me understand
Response #5:
First piece of advice: stop listening to this person (or any such
person). There are plenty of Mormons and JWs and Muslims and Roman
Catholics and all manner of cults who are happy to tell you that you are
going to hell if you don't do ABC the way they say and refrain from XYZ
the way they say. Does that mean what they say is true?
Only the Bible is true – correctly understood and interpreted.
Where in the Bible does it say "you are going to hell if you don't get a
divorce"?
Anywhere?
It would be ridiculous if it weren't so evil.
Why does this person say this? It has to do with the devil. The devil
wants to trip up believers, and especially any believers who are making
spiritual progress. He will use any lie that works. He uses misplaced
guilt feelings as his weapon of choice. If he has had success in the
past, he will continue to attack as long as he has such success.
So what is needed is 1) to not listen to lies; 2) to dismiss lies from
your heart; 3) and very importantly to give attention to the truth. I
strongly urge you to be reading into this ministry (or some other good
Bible teaching ministry –
Bible Academy is excellent; at the link). Because without a good
store of truth – ammunition against lies – it's hard to put such things
to rest.
Keeping you in my daily prayers, my friend.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #6:
Hi Bob,
I hope you've had a good day.
I'm grateful for what I've learnt just recently about people who aren't
interested in the truth - including family and friends. Leaving alone those who
want to be left "to their own devices" and to let them make what "choice they
will". That's not to say I won't be there for them if they need me because of
course I will. They know where I am and I'll never stop praying for them.
[omitted]
So I hand them over to the Lord in prayer along with all my weariness.
Thankfully the frustration has gone now. The Lord knows my heart and that I only
ever tried to help them in obedience to Him and for their sakes - never for
myself. It's their choice at the end of the day.
And another one of our Odii's gems that I've taken on board:-
"I've satisfied my conscience now that if someone really wants the truth they
will move heaven and earth to find it".
So I'll be quietly focusing on looking after my family as the Lord wants me to
and getting my head down on my own to study His Word and continue to press
forward in the truth. I'm sorry that this has taken me so long to grasp and that
you've had to listen to it for so long. If I had been a bit further along and
more spiritually mature it's not even something I would have written to you
about in detail. I would have been quicker off the mark with it. But it's all
experience and I will be next time.
It's a good place for me to finally get to. It's good to care and to love and to
hope for the best for others - but not to be naïve or lose my common sense when
it's obvious that they don't want or love the truth. I'm done with all that now
and I feel much better for it.
Thank you, Bob for being so patient with me. I hope your meeting goes well
tomorrow and I'm still praying for you.
Your friend in our dear Lord Jesus
Response #6:
I'm happy to hear that you are getting some peace on this. We also have to remember that "there is a time and a way for everything, although man’s trouble lies heavy on him" (Eccl.8:6 ESV). In other words, I'm not a patient person and whenever I am uncomfortable for any reason I'm even less so. But God's timing is perfect (and in this case God has a perfect plan for you and for your husband too).
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
1st Peter 3:1-2 NASB
Which is what you are doing. And on the obedience part, Peter says just a little later . . .
For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.
1st Peter 3:5-6 NASB
Which is to say that "obedience" extends just as far as legitimate
authority does – but not beyond. So don't stop reading your Bible!
Thanks for those prayers! I'll let you know how it goes. Keeping you and
your family in mine day by day as well.
In Jesus Christ our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #7:
[family opposition to Bible reading omitted]
Response #7:
Being at peace is so important. It's the one revamped commandment for
the Church Age. Our Sabbath rest is a daily all-time one. We only have
today, and today we only have to make a pleasant, short Sabbath-day
journey, hand-in-hand with our Lord. He leads along the path, and He is
with us even if today's road leads through a deep, dark valley. Whatever
happens, He protects us and provides for us – and we end up with Him in
glory, with a "cup overflowing".
Good to hear you've gotten your NASB! I check it when there are issues
and I wonder how a more literal take might look (not that I always agree
with the way they go). It's good to have; it was the version our
seminary preferred. [note; the new NASB20 version has only intensified
the problems with NASB – I couldn't recommend that one]
Keeping you and your family in my daily prayers, my friend.
In Jesus our dear Lord,
Bob L.
Question #8:
Greetings Robert,
Thank you for sending your study notes on the topic of the church.
The Lord has opened our eyes over the past couple decades to the reality
that indeed the church is not about a building nor denomination. Much of
our work on Sunday now is directly ministering the gospel to the elderly
in nursing homes.
Regarding the church as the bride of Christ, many professing christians
today are not willing to forgive their God joined one flesh spouse and
opt instead for hard hearted divorce and marrying another (which God
calls adultery in Luke 16:18, Romans 7, Mark 10). A call to repentance
on this issue is of utmost importance toward those who remain in such
adulterous relationships. Our one flesh spouse is our closest neighbor,
and failing to forgive means God will not forgive: "And forgive us our
sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us." (Luke 11:4)
"And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that
your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven
forgive your trespasses." (Mark 11:25-26)
"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he
should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly
Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one
his brother their trespasses. (Matt. 18:34-35).
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit,
Response #8:
Thanks: I do think this recent study, BB 6B (link)
will shed a great deal of light on that subject.
On the issue of marriage, however, I would counsel you to take a deeper look.
When you write, "Our one flesh spouse is our closest neighbor, and failing to
forgive means God will not forgive", you seem to be assuming, just for example,
that everyone who is divorced had some choice in the matter. It is possible in
this country for a spouse to divorce another spouse entirely against their will.
And what about when the other spouse is not willing to be forgiven, not willing
to change conduct and abuse that is potentially life-threatening, no matter how
often the other says "I forgive you"? These are just two examples of situations
that occur every day.
There is a reason why the Bible does not in fact provide one-size-fits-all
guidance on this thorny issue. And it is very dangerous to suggest that it does
when in fact it does not (see below). I have counseled many individuals whose
lives have been threatened with complete destruction on account of irrational
guilt that false teaching on this issue provides. Should a happily married
couple ruin their marriage, destroy their children, and cause undue pain to
their families to satisfy the strictures of ministries which teach falsely on
this issue, to try to go back to, e.g., an abusive and homicidal alcoholic who
wants nothing more to do with his former spouse in any case?
Nowhere does the Bible counsel divorce, but that is precisely what many who
misunderstand what the Bible says about this issue are telling others to do.
I don't mean any offense. But this really is a complicated issue in the Bible
and those who have a happy Christian marriage without ever having been divorced
are really not in a position to judge others who have not been so blessed. So I
would strongly urge you to read some of the postings on Ichthys about all this
(happy to answer specific questions). Here are a few links which will lead to
others:
A Conversation about Divorce and Remarriage
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #9:
You are correct that many do not want to receive forgiveness and do not
want to reconcile their God joined marriage. This does NOT assume that
either party in a marriage is free to marry another just because a
divorce is obtained from a lawyer. One is allowed to "remain unmarried
or be reconciled", so no, I am not counseling people to force
reconciliation against the will of the hard-hearted spouse who does not
want to receive it.
You are also correct that the New Testament does not ever instruct
people to get a divorce. Think about it, why would a divorce need to be
obtained when repenting from an adulterous marriage? As Jesus told the
woman taken in adultery "go and sin no more" (he did not say to get a
divorce). Regarding a God joined one flesh marriage, why would paying a
lawyer fee to obtain divorce paperwork change God's mind as to who He
has made one flesh until death? Furthermore, why would a new civil
magistrate issued marriage license change God's mind regarding the Bible
definition of adultery?
There are now many civil magistrate approved marriages of men with men
who have adopted children and by the milk of human kindness standard
have very "happy well adjusted family lives" with the children well
clothed, fed, and educated. Though you may or may not have ever had
homosexual temptations, I trust that you see from the Bible that man
with man marriage relationships are not really God joined one flesh
marriages in the eyes of God, and as such you would counsel men in such
circumstances to "go and sin no more". Again, obtaining divorce
paperwork from a lawyer is not necessary in the eyes of God to dissolve
and repent of unbiblical marriages.
While the consequences of sin lead to many complex situations in this
life, unrepentant adulterers and unrepentant homosexuals will both face
the awful punishment of eternal hell fire. This Bible truth must be kept
in mind as we seek to win lost souls for Christ in this sex crazed
culture in which we live....
God helping us,
Response #9:
You wrote: "unrepentant adulterers and unrepentant homosexuals will
both face the awful punishment of eternal hell fire".
1) How do you understand salvation? Are you saying that it is of works
and not of faith?
2) Are you saying that married individuals can commit adultery by having
relations with each other?
3) Are you actively counseling remarried Christians to either get
divorced or to cease having relations with each other?
It sounds as if you are doing all three – and all three are dangerously
wrong.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #10:
To answer your questions,
1) Salvation is by faith
2) Yes, it is the Bible that says remarried people are committing adultery
(notice the present continuing verb forms in Luke 16:18, it is not only adultery
in the initial act of "marrying another") it is adultery every time they have
sex with the person who is not their God joined one flesh spouse.
3) Yes, I am actively counseling people living in adultery to repent, and
"remain unmarried or be reconciled" to the God joined spouse until death
fulfills the marriage relationship; upon death of the spouse they are free to
marry someone else (and Christians to marry only in the Lord).
hope this helps,
Response #10:
1) You write here "Salvation is by faith"; but you wrote before "unrepentant
adulterers and unrepentant homosexuals will both face the awful
punishment of eternal hell fire". If a person is a believer, they
are not going to hell. If a person is an unbeliever, he/she is going to
hell – regardless in both cases of their relationship status, whether or
not you are correct in your analysis of remarriages. So what does it say
if you are telling believers they are going to hell? How is that not
rank Pharisaical legalism, attempting to (wrongly) terrify others into
getting them to do what YOU want them to do? Even if you were correct in
your analysis, that would be like telling someone that they are going to
hell for drinking alcohol, just because you personally don't agree with
drinking alcohol. Of course, urging someone to destroy their present
marriage is a whole lot worse than trying to get them to stop drinking
by such unbiblical sophistry..
2) You write here "it is the Bible that says remarried people are
committing adultery". However, the verse you adduce does not say
what you think it says. Here is a good translation of the verse in
question which brings out what it actually means:
"Whenever someone divorces his wife and marries another, he commits adultery; and whenever someone marries a woman divorced from another man, he commits adultery".
Luke 16:18
The act of wrongful divorce and remarriage was an offense against the
first spouse and equivalent of an act of adultery; this does not say
that having relations inside marriage, any marriage, is adulterous.
Divorce and remarriage for insufficient cause was not legitimate under
the Mosaic Law – and all of the individuals in this context were subject
to the Mosaic Law. However, as our Lord says elsewhere, there was an
exception, even under the Law (Matt.19:9). But you are pretending that
exceptions do not exist, and you are not even looking into the
circumstances of the divorce when you tell people they are going to
hell.
Even worse, please note that our Lord does NOT tell these terrible
Pharisees who have indeed violated the whole principle of marriage and
wrongly divorced their prior wives to NOW get divorced and go back to
their previous spouses. No verse in the New Testament does that. Why
not? Because a marriage is a marriage. Even in the verse above our Lord
affirms that these people HAVE "married" ("and marries another"). That
would not be correct if what they had done was somehow not a marriage.
But that is what you are telling legally married people, namely, that
they are not married.
3) You write here: "Yes, I am actively counseling people living in
adultery to repent". Biblically speaking, it is impossible for two
married people to be "living in adultery" with each other. Neither that
flawed concept nor that terminology is found in the Bible. Adultery is
what happens when people who are not married to each other but to others
have relations outside of marriage. The people you are talking to are
legally married. Perhaps they did not have reasonable grounds for
divorce – but you don't have any idea because you are not even asking
that question. God defines marriage as marriage; nowhere in His Word is
this idea to be found that a legal marriage is not a marriage He expects
the parties to honor – even if they got there in ways of which you do
not approve. And what about the children?
"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
Matthew 18:6 NKJV
The above only scratches the surface of the problems of what you are
teaching and doing. I urge you to reconsider and AT LEAST look into the
matter at Ichthys at the links previously provided.
This is dangerous business.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #11:
Hi Robert,
I was a child of parents who divorced, and my dad then married a woman who was
divorced (and her husband still living). The so called 2nd marriage was not a
good influence as the family then begins to think divorce is ok. What is legal
is defined by God ultimately in the Bible. Where man's laws go against God's
laws, we follow God and not man.
Response #11:
I'm sorry to hear of your past trauma.
Divorce is terrible. That is why God "hates it" (Mal.2:16). And
remarriage is problematic for all manner of reasons. But marriage in the
first place is not without trouble, which is why Paul said "I wish that
all men were even as I myself am" (i.e., single: 1Cor.7:7 NASB).
The scriptures are our guide to these matters. So I always keep it
simple when people ask me about these issues: 1) If single, better not
to marry; 2) if married, better not to divorce; 3) if divorced, better
not to remarry; 4) if remarried, better not to divorce. This has the
virtue of being consonant with what the Bible actually says and teaches
(1Cor.7:26-28). When you say "the family then begins to think divorce is
ok", that may be a problematic bad influence, but that can't be
extrapolated into a biblical principle – as if because uncle Joe is an
abusive alcoholic we are allowed to proclaim alcohol use anti-biblical
because we don't like the potential negative effects of alcohol use. We
have to let the Bible be our sole guide on all matters of faith and
practice. On that we agree. Where we disagree is on what the Bible
states.
I reiterate, the Bible nowhere counsels divorce – just the opposite.
I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and I am trying to spare you.
1st Corinthians 7:26-28 NASB
In Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #12:
Hi Robert,
The point being made in ..."But if the unbelieving depart, let him
depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but
God hath called us to peace.
For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or
how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every
one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches."
(1 Cor. 7:15-17 KJV).... is that you REMAIN in the calling of being
separated from the unbelieving spouse who desires to leave. Such a one
is not under bondage to chase after an unbelieving spouse who does not
want to reconcile. NO PERMISSION is given to enter another marriage
while the first spouse is living. (see 1Cor. 7:39 as the summary of what
is being taught in context).
In reference to "concerning virgins... 1st Cor. 7:25 and the verses that
follow, these are people who have NEVER YET consummated in the marriage
bed, they would have been betrothed (espoused) and as such would already
be called wife / husband. Betrothals can be broken off for the cause of
fornication (note Mary and Joseph for example when Joseph thought she
had committed fornication he was going to put her away as a just man).
This is consistent with the exception clause given in Matthew chapters 5
and 19, as the narrow meaning of the word fornication is sex before the
consummaiton of marriage as apposed to the narrow meaning of the word
"adultery" which is a married person having sex with someone other than
the God-joined spouse.
May the Lord give you understanding,
Response #12:
You wrote in summary of 1st Corinthians 7:15-17, ". . . NO PERMISSION is
given to enter another marriage while the first spouse is living". Let's
assume for a moment that you are correct in all circumstances without exception
(ignoring, e.g., Matt.5:32; 19:9; and other interpretations of the passage
here), the fact that no permission is given does NOT authorize or "give
permission" to divorce if a person remarries anyway. The Bible NEVER counsels
divorce. We are to stay in the situation we are in (1Cor.7:25-40).
What if we don't? What if we change our situation against what the Bible says
and do so without excuse? Then we are to remain in the situation we are in
thereafter. The Bible NEVER says we should try and unscramble any such omelet
we've made. Not to mention that it is impossible to do so. That is no doubt why
our Lord does NOT tell the self-righteous Pharisees to now get divorced from the
new wife and go back to the old wife. That is adding evil to evil (cf.
Deut.24:1-4). Omelets cannot be unscrambled. If I slander someone, I can't put
that back in the bottle. No matter how much I may try to "do" so, I can't "make
it right". But God DOES forgive when we sin if we confess to Him in true
repentance, determining not to repeat the error. That repentance does not
require us to go back and "fix it" because "it", whatever "it" is can never be
fixed. Trying to "fix things" is the devil's work. God offers forgiveness, not
Roman Catholic penance. Show me a verse where married people are told to
divorce. It doesn't exist – and for good reason. So even if a brother or sister
was in the wrong to divorce in the first place (as mentioned, there are
exceptions, and it is also possible to BE divorced against one's will), and even
if said brother or sister gets remarried "without permission", that is, against
what the Bible says, while that would be a sin, all sin is forgiven when we
confess – NOT on the basis of any works we do thereafter to try to "fix it".
You are mortal, you are human, you sin too. And when you do, God forgives you
when you confess. Are some sins worse than others? Certainly there are sins that
do great damage, and getting married wrongly will no doubt bring discipline from
the Lord and many other naturally negative consequences as all such misdeeds do.
But does that mean that God does not forgive? Jesus died for all sins, and all
sin is forgiven when a believer confesses. Why do you assume that this sin of
remarriage (if in a given case it really was a sin) is not capable of being
forgiven? One thing I can tell you for certain is that no human being can wipe
away sin by any human action, no matter how drastic or painful. Only God can
forgive – and He always does in Jesus Christ for believers who confess. But that
is not enough for you. You are demanding that people destroy their lives and the
lives of others in order to be forgiven. But are you the one in whose hands this
forgiveness lies? If you want to blame this questionable "advice" on God, show
me a passage where divorce is commanded for remarried believers.
On the other passage, 1Cor.7:25ff., while part of it has to do with the never
married and the particular problem of arranged marriages, part of it CLEARLY has
a wider application: e.g., "Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed."
(1Cor.7:27). You're not saying that those "bound to a wife" are virgins, are
you? So clearly you'll have to deal with this context too, the essential point
of which is "stay where you are at – wherever that is". People who violate that
guidance are always sorry for it, and if they are sinful in doing so (not always
the case: "If you marry, you have not sinned"), they will no doubt receive
discipline for the act of wrongful change (divorce or marriage) – but all sin is
forgiven – since Christ paid the penalty for it all – whenever a believer
confesses their sin to the Lord.
Consider this. You have wrongly counseled married people to divorce. Some may
have done so to the great confusion of their lives and the lives of others whom
they thus harm. And even if they have not followed your bad, non-biblical
"advice", you have no doubt caused a great deal of harm and suffering in
misplaced guilt of damnation (!?) for brothers and sisters who do not do what
you say. I can well understand that you don't want to admit what you have done. But
hardening your heart against the truth is only doubling down to go from bad to
worse.
Understand: you don't owe any apology to me – but you do owe confession to the
Lord. There is no "fixing" what you have done. True repentance acknowledges that
the sin has been against the Lord and the Lord only (Ps.51:4), and is not to be
repeated in the future.
Offered in the love of Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #13:
Are two men who claim to be married to each other REALLY married to each other
in God's eyes? Should they remain together or separate?
It is confusing to even understand where you are coming from.
Response #13:
I'm confused that you profess to be confused.
In direct answer to your question, what unbelievers do and what godless, secular
governments allow should mean nothing to us. Believers are responsible to follow
the laws of God and the laws of the governments He establishes, just as long as
the latter does not require us personally to do things that violate His
commands.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Romans 1:26-27 NKJV
Pretty clear. All such carnal relations are desperately sinful. No exceptions.
Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
1st Corinthians 7:3 NKJV
Pretty clear, married men and women on the other hand are required not to deprive each other. No exceptions. Believers who are married are married. It is not for you to tell them otherwise. Marriage is an institution God gave to all and whose administration God has given to the governments He has established. So believers who are married are married.
I suppose therefore that this is good because of the present distress—that it is good for a man to remain as he is: Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But even if you do marry, you have not sinned;
1st Corinthians 7:26-28a NKJV
Pretty clear. Stay as you are. There are exceptions here (some covered by our Lord, some mentioned in this chapter, and in the course of life people sometimes violate this good counsel).
For the LORD God of Israel says that He hates divorce, "For it covers one’s garment with violence," Says the LORD of hosts. “Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously.”
Malachi 2:16 NKJV
Pretty clear. God hates divorce. Divorcing your partner without solid grounds
(these do exist on occasion) is "dealing treacherously", breaking the promises
one has made, promises upon which one's spouse and others (children in
particular) depend. And that is true of ALL marriages in which believers are
involved (we're not concerned with unbelievers' marital status: we give them the
gospel if they show receptivity). Just because a person has done wrong in the
past (and believers are forgiven when they confess: 1Jn.1:9), does not give them
permission to do wrong in the present. A second divorce does not "cure" a first
divorce; a second divorce is just as bad as a first divorce.
You are counseling married believers to get divorced – without even looking into
individual circumstances (were they divorced against their will? Did their
spouse commit adultery against them? Were there circumstances that made it
dangerous to stay in the marriage?).
God hates divorce. But you have no scripture to support you in advocating for
it.
You seem to be staking everything on your erroneous opinion that anyone who has
been divorced and remarried is committing adultery. But I have demonstrated to
you that the passage you use doesn't say that at all. Nor did our Lord tell the
Pharisees who were guilty of wrongful divorce to now get divorced again. Nor did
He tell them to go back to their first wife. Nor do you take into account that
He gives an exception. One could go on.
Where am I coming from? I'm trying to help you avoid serious consequences
(1Cor.4:6). If one person ruins their life – and the lives of others – by
following your anti-biblical "advice", . . . . ?
Written in the love of Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #14:
Dear Dr Luginbill,
May I ask, what are your thoughts on guy/girl platonic friendships? Do
you think it is advisable or inadvisable (assuming both are true
believers)? On the one hand, it seems to me in the NT, there were at
least friendships (not sure on how close) between Paul and Phoebe and a
few others. And the Lord's approaching the woman at the well makes me
think the Pence Rule (where he refuses to meet with anyone other than
his wife) is not Biblical. Or perhaps it is different for Him.
I was going to bring up a counterexample I have seen. There was this
guys and girl I knew who had been friends for years and one day they
just stopped meeting up. But that may be more of an individual thing,
not a gender thing. (I mean same-gender friendships can be superficial,
too). Obviously we shouldn't fake whether we enjoy someone's company. No
offense to a lot of guys, but they are not the best conversationalists
most of the time. (And of course it is true that us gals are very
emotive). But it is common when one of the two gets married that the
friendship falls apart because you don't want your spouse to feel
threatened. But then, in an ideal church, will the singles and marrieds
each just hang out with each other only? This of course would include
the widowed and divorced, etc.
Anyway, what do you think?
Four years ago it was the case that nearly half of America was single
(whether never married, divorced or widowed), and we are only getting
married later and living longer; and the trajectory of marrying young
and only being married once into you sixties before you die is almost
nonexistent now. So I think this is important and only becoming more and
more visible.
I really don't know what our society with such a lack of any stable
relationships or support systems will look like. If it isn't your
parents or your siblings, or extended family, or community, as all of
that has fallen apart; and obviously not marriage, what is there? All
that is left is God. We are on our own individually now.
PS: But of course, if someone left their believing friends when they
married and later were widowed and divorced, their friends might not
welcome them back if they feel abandoned. But I suppose the answer is to
just make new friends? But how can friendship ever be more than
superficial when you know that as soon as they find another significant
other, they will drop you too? This seems to create an environment where
no one can be relied upon and everyone will have to be out for
themselves (I mean, if no one can be relied upon to help you in a bad
situation, you have to take care of it yourself simply as
self-preservation).
Response #14:
This is another case where theory is fine but the proof is in the
pudding. What I mean by that is we are talking about the application of
spiritual principles here, so that every friendship would have to be
considered on a case by case basis focusing on the two believers
involved.
Human beings are weak. For that reason, all non-Christian friendships
are problematic (and largely pointless). When it comes to friendships
between Christians, the more they are based upon a mutual love for the
truth of the Word of God, the better they are because their foundation
is more secure.
Even so, Christians need to be careful. The evil one is always looking
to compromise us and in this area – because of our inherent weaknesses –
there is usually an avenue for attack. So caution and realism are still
important when two Christians of the opposite sex strike up a one-on-one
friendship. It's foolish not to keep the dangers in mind at all times –
so as to take precautionary measures (e.g., meeting up at some public
place rather than in somebody's apartment).
In Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #15:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
I hope your week went well! I was dragging all week, but hope to get
some rest this weekend.
[omitted]
Because the Holy Spirit is guiding me to teach women and girls, I know
that this same trap [of false teaching about women having to submit to
men in all circumstances] will be something that I will be often bumping
up against in trying to help others come to the Lord and grow
spiritually.
Here are my questions:
1. In Genesis 3:16 when God said that “…Your desire will be for your
husband, and he will rule over you,” was He only talking about marriage:
an individual woman’s relationship with her husband or was He cursing
all women to always be under the control of all men in every era and in
every kind of community?
2. Was Eve created to be physically weaker than Adam before the fall or
did God change her and her descendants to be physically weaker than men
so that it would be possible for the husbands to rule and as part of her
judgment?
3. How far can Christian men take this part of the Genesis curse on Eve
and all women in individual/community relationships in the church? I do
agree that I should submit to my future husband, but what about my
relationship with other men who are not my father? How much
power/control does God allow men to have over women who are not their
wives? There are so many pseudo-Christian cults and fundamentalist
churches that use this verse (among others) to advocate abusive
relationships between men and women and not just between husbands and
wives. For example…I stumbled upon a website where a Christian man (not
Mormon) was using Genesis 3:16 and other verses to teach that God
created men to be naturally polygamous and gave them polygamous desires,
but women were not created to be this way. Because of this, he was
teaching that polygamy is not only advocated and instituted by God, but
that monogamous relationships are actually spiritually damaging to men!
These are the kinds of false teachings and lies that the evil one uses
to alienate unbelieving women and immature Christian women from Christ.
I saw and read these types of teachings from those who claim to be men
of God when I was young, hurt and vulnerable. I thought these men truly
represented who God was and it turned me against Him.
4. Can men justly use Genesis 3:16 or any other verses in scripture to
advocate political enslavement of women to men? The history of sinful
mankind is characterized by wicked/abusive relationships: individual and
collective, between different nations, different races and between
family members. I know women are just as sinful as men and can
hurt/tempt/rape/kill other women (like Lot's daughters), children and
men too, but because we are physically weaker than men it is easier for
men to hurt us and take advantage of us. Throughout history men have
usually collectively and violently ruled over women. I know this is the
result of sin and our fallen state, but the devil is using this history
to alienate women from God, like he did with me. God does punish the
collective evil of nations with military conquests/control by other
nations and slavery has been a part of this. Throughout history both men
and women could and do become slaves and God regulated the slavery
happening in ancient Israel. Also I can see His love and mercy towards
men and women when reading all of the different statutes in the Mosaic
law outlined in the Old Testament, especially those regarding slavery.
I think most women in 1st world countries are blessed with more
political freedoms and rights than women other eras of history and in
other parts of the world but, again, a lot of cults and fundamental
churches teach that this is a bad thing. I am very grateful to God that
I have the freedom and ability to seek my own employment and earn my own
wages without having to marry a man (for economic reasons) or become a
concubine. I may be a “slave” to my employer, but the laws in this
country protect me from becoming a sexual slave. More than ever before
Christian women have freedom to devote to growing closer to God and
developing their ministries, especially single Christian women.
In our culture so much of the Bible teaching for women it is fluff that
focuses too much on marriage and relationships without helping women to
learn the deep things the Bible teaches which will bring them closer to
Christ. That is why I want to teach God’s Word correctly to women… so we
can move beyond all of the relationship talk, defend against all the
false teaching, guard against the political manipulations and get into
the meat of Scripture. I know we are under the Genesis curse (which is
also blessing) but we should not be making idols out of men or our
husbands.
Again – no rush in getting back to me this week. And please let me know
if you, your family or anyone else on the Ichthys prayer list need more
specific or urgent prayers!
In Christ's Love,
Response #15:
I am personally appalled at the multiplicity of incidents of
ill-treatment of woman by any number of churches, denominations and men
claiming to be "Christian"; this is a longstanding problem as you know.
Likewise the husbands are to live together [with their wives] in
accordance with [biblical] knowledge (i.e., according to what the Bible
has to say by word and example about how to properly treat one's wife),
[behaving] as [one ought] towards the more delicate female person (i.e.,
in respect for their femininity). [You husbands] must bestow [all
appropriate] honor [on your wives] as fellow heirs of the grace of
[eternal] life, so that your prayers may not be hindered (i.e., sin in
this regard compromises prayer).
1st Peter 3:7
The above is paralleled by many specific scriptures, and it is also
certainly the case that the Bible generally promotes loving
relationships where humility is the rule, and NEVER arrogant wielding of
authority in oppressive behavior. But people always misuse the Bible.
Husbands are the authority in a marriage relationship, but that
authority is circumscribed by the principle of love and mutual belonging
one to another (1Cor.7:3-5; Eph.5:22-33).
Outside of that, the only thing scripture has to say on the matter of
authority is that women are not allowed to be the pastor-teacher of a
congregation (which, as we have discussed before, does not mean that
they can have no teaching role, just not the authoritative one which
rules the whole church). And as I always also point out, men without the
gift are not allowed to be the pastor-teacher either – and even those
with it are not to be put in a position of authority until they are
prepared and unless they pass the tests outlined in the pastoral
epistles.
With that background, on to your questions:
1) Marriage is meant only.
2) Women and men perfectly complement each other – under paradise
conditions. In Eden, there was, as I have written and discussed in BB
3A, no functional authority relationship to speak of because there was
no sin, no curse, no necessity. The Bible doesn't say that women were
made weaker. The curse is about "desire" for a husband. As I have also
noted, without having the desire for a husband and a family hard-wired
in, it would be understandable if women seldom got married.
3) Men and women are (theoretically) equal in our society, and I see no
biblical mandate for relegating women to a second class status in the
Church, nor any biblical mandate for them to be submissive (a loaded
word) to men generally. They are to be RESPONSIVE (better word) to their
husbands. Having said that, we live in an imperfect world. We are
responsible for what we say and do as witnesses to Jesus Christ. As
Christians, we are watched and evaluated, whatever we do. Somewhere
between aggressive disrespect and cowing submissiveness is a good place
for all of us to be in how we relate to others in authority in this
world. The world, it is a fact, expects different things from women than
from men. We are aware of those expectations and take everything into
account in how we decide to comport ourselves. But we do not allow
trivial matters to stop us from doing what Christ wants us to do in this
world. From recent posting:
Question #10:
What does it mean to "give way to fear" in 1st Peter 3:6?
Response #10:
NKJV has, a bit more literally, "not afraid with any terror" in 1st
Peter 3:6. In other words, Peter is commending respect for husbands from
their wives, but is very careful to distinguish this godly behavior from
being terrified of – or terrorized by – their husbands. Marriage is a
two-way street as Peter is also very clear about in the context. So a
husband is to treat his wife with love so that she feels no terror, and
she is to show respect even though it is not being forced upon her.
Also, "not afraid of any terror" will mean that a wife will do the right
thing for Jesus Christ first, even as she truly respects her husband.
And she will not allow herself to be terrorized into omitting what she
should do or doing what she should not do as a Christian woman, even
though she is married (and possibly to a less than honorable man).
Here is a link on this:
"Patriarchy?".
4) No. Not with any validity, at least. Just because something is a
historical fact doesn't mean it's ordained by God. Your examples of
slavery and polygamy are good parallels here. They were both endemic in
times past (and still have not disappeared entirely), but it's hard for
any enlightened person to argue that they were "good institutions".
I heartily agree that "love and marriage" constitutes a greatly
disproportionate percentage of the "teaching" of most Laodicean churches
(to the extent that they teach anything), and that it also mostly strays
into areas which scripture does not mention and comes up with
conclusions which are not biblical. Freedom is like the internet: it's
an opportunity. Can the opportunity be abused? Yes, and it frequently
is; but I'd rather have it for myself and take responsibility for using
it wisely rather than having it taken away.
Do feel free to write me back about any of this, my friend.
Your friend in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question
#16:
Hi Dr. Luginbill,
Thank you for answering my questions this week. How did your week go?
I did get some rest this week, so now I am a off my usual schedule and
trying to catch up. The Fire department had another fitness training
event this weekend, which helped me get a better idea on what I need to
be working on with my training. I ended up having to go to a salvage
yard to buy a tire to practice with – part of our test is having to use
a heavy mallet to strike a tire, pushing it across a table within a
certain amount of time.
Thank you for your answers to me about my questions concerning the
status of women in history in relation to men and what God’s Word really
teaches were very, very helpful. Concerning 1 Peter 3:7:
"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives,
and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you
of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers."
(NIV)
Is Peter only talking about our physical weakness in comparison to men?
Also do you know of any decent book that I can read to help me
understand more about the way people lived in the ancient middle east? I
would like to have a background understanding of what the norms were
during those times. I know this differed greatly from culture to culture
- the Israelites were living a lot differently from the nations around
them.
Please let me know if there are any specific prayers I can pray for you
or anyone on the Ichthys prayer list this week!
In Christ's Love,
Response
#16:
Wow! You have to be tough to be a firefighter! Keeping you in my prayers
on this.
Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel (skeuos), and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.
1st Peter 3:7 NKJV
On 1st Peter 3:7, yes, the word 'skeuos', "vessel", refers to the
physical body (cf. 1Thes.4:4). It's certainly true that the average
female is slightly smaller in stature and slightly weaker in strength
than the average male – that seems to me to be part of the design
reflected in Genesis chapter two. Because we certainly know that
mentally and spiritually men and women are equals, with equal rights to
winning the eternal rewards that the Lord will give for doing the jobs
He gives us in this world. That's in the same verse, after all: "heirs
together of the grace of life", with "heirs together being a single
word, 'synkleros', meaning very directly that we all have a share
in Christ and in the New Jerusalem – but of course the level of reward
related to that share will differ person to person depending NOT on our
gender but on how we performed for Jesus Christ in this life.
The effects of the physical differences mentioned above were more
pronounced in the ancient world, it seems to me, since almost all
professions and ways of earning a livelihood were physically intensive
in a way not true today. And of course, we are talking about a general
rule here. In the USMC, I had more than one Marine who was less than average
size but was married to a woman who was taller and larger (and it was not
uncommon to hear of the wife getting the better of things in a dust-up).
So I don't think Peter is addressing the biblical roles or the cultural
limitations placed on women in antiquity (this differed from place to
place and time to time, with Rome of Peter and Paul's day being probably
the most benign place for women in the ancient world). Given the time
and place, spousal abuse was not uncommon, so Peter's words in the
Spirit here are important, telling the men that just because a woman may
not be able to put up a physical fight does not give her husband any
right to rely on physical force in their relationship: as believers, we
are all equal heirs, and if a man does go that route it will be going
against God – resulting in hindered prayers.
I don't really know of a satisfactory book on this subject. Just on the
subject of "woman's role in society", think of how different the answer
to such a question would be just in our country between, 1820, 1920 and
2020 (not to mention gradations therein). As a result, "manners and
customs" books tend to be so general as to be nearly or totally
worthless. Add to that the fact that for many of the time periods one
would be interested in the sources are quite limited. For more on this, see
the link (skip down to Q/A #9):
https://ichthys.com/mail-ministry-preparation-for-ministry6.htm
My week went well – thanks for asking. Put year
Peter #28 to bed finally. Taking this week to catch up on some
things around the homestead.
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #17:
Hello,
I have a question regarding a subject that I am sure you receive many questions
about: Marriage, Divorce, Remarriage. Although I am not a Theologian or a
Professor, I have looked up countless position papers, research papers, etc.
(which, I’ll admit, has caused me quite a bit of confusion with the numerous
opinions available). Being divorced myself, I am biased as to why this topic is
so important to me. In my research, it appears that the early church fathers did
not allow for remarriage, under any circumstances, even adultery. From the
writings of some, it appears they even advised that one in a second marriage
should cease performing their marital duties and, if possible, return to the
first spouse. This seems very contradictory to what is taught present-day (many
pastors refer to Deut. as a prohibition against this very thing). I’m sure you
are incredibly busy, but if you have any insight that you can share, it would be
greatly appreciated. Mainly, is it possible that the early church fathers were
more correct and millions of people are living in an on-going state of adultery?
Are millions of divorced Christians unable to ever remarry? It appears the early
church fathers made this a “heaven or hell”, “Jesus or the world” decision. Or,
if one has repented of their short-comings in a marriage, and reconciliation is
no longer possible, can a divorced/repentant/forgiven Christian remarry without
fear of hell?
Thanks,
Response #17:
Good to make your acquaintance.
First off, I wouldn't pay any attention to the "church fathers"; it is a
rare thing when they get / got anything right whatsoever. Revelation
tells us that the very first era of the Church after that of the
apostles, the era of Ephesus, "abandoned their first love" (Rev.2:4-5),
namely, attention to the Bible, the Word of truth. Those who followed
were no better. My advice: read the actual Bible, and also find yourself
a solid, orthodox (in the true sense) teaching ministry which have
tested and can rely on for explication of the scriptures. You are
certainly welcome at Ichthys any time.
As to the substance, I will give you some links below to where the
details of this very timely question are discussed. As to the gist,
there is no such thing as a "state of adultery" and there is no such
thing as a "make or break sin". Believers are saved; unbelievers are
not; period (e.g., Jn.3:18). Believers are indeed disciplined for sin,
and it is certainly true that any believer involved in a pattern of
gross sin will suffer intensely for it. That will result in the long run
in either the believer responding or not. For those who respond / repent
/ confess, there is always forgiveness. For those who refuse to give up
their favorite gross sinning, one of two things will happen: a) the
discipline will become so great that the person in question will harden
his/her heart against God and turn away into apostasy; or b) the person
in question refuses to give up either their faith or their sin; in such
cases these individuals are taken out of this life ingloriously via "the
sin unto death" (see the link:
Apostasy and the Sin unto Death).
What about marriage and divorce? The bottom line of scriptural guidance
is as followed:
1) Are you single? Better not to get married.
2) Are you married? Better not to get divorced.
3) Are you divorced? Better not to get re-married.
4) Are you re-married? Better not to get divorced.
A marriage is a marriage. It's a legal commitment and even if it was
questionably contracted (i.e., the Christian in question "didn't have
the right" – there are cases where remarriage is biblically sanctioned
and many situations where it is a judgment call), nevertheless such
commitments are binding. A Christian doesn't have the right to dump
their spouse out of concerns over "was this marriage sanctioned?" If you
are married, you are married, and the Lord expects you to be a good
spouse as long as that is possible (clearly, if abandoned or divorced by
the other or forced out through abuse, that is impossible).
I am personally appalled at the great number of people out there at
present who are counseling Christians to divorce – often where the
marriage is happy and there are children dependent upon it – basing
their horrific and damnable "advice" on misinterpretations of scripture
(as you can see from the links). If a person made a mistake or even
knowingly "wrongly" got married, that is an omelet which can't be
unscrambled. Best to honor the commitment made before God. That is the
godly thing to do – and believers are NOT cast into hell for doing the
godly thing. People who play upon the understandable guilt of those who
don't understand grace, forgiveness and the Bible ARE in danger of being
cast into hell, however – because I have a hard time believing that a genuine
follower of Christ would do such a thing.
Here are those links (just a selection – you find more links within
these):
A Conversation about Divorce and Remarriage
What about Christians who Remarry?
In Jesus our dear Savior,
Bob L.
Question #18:
[omitted]
Response #18:
Yes, this tension between spouses is one of the unintended side-effects of cooping everyone up in this pandemic. Former first lady Rosaline Carter is said to have complained to her husband after they left the White House, "I married you for better or for worse, but not for lunch". So he found things to occupy himself with outside of the house. The biblical version:
Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
1st Corinthians 7:5 NKJV
The operative part for this discussion: no one can concentrate on prayer
and Bible study with someone else in their face constantly, even if they
are otherwise beloved.
I certainly also know what you mean about people with worldly
perspectives. It's difficult to share their concerns and enthusiasms,
since, even if we do so on some superficial level, their lack of
appreciation for what's really important leaves us speaking a different
language almost. And it's very important too not to allow ourselves to
be dragged down to their level. So it is a struggle, especially if we
are talking about spouses and children. But the Lord has promised us
that we can have peace no matter what. Peace is our citadel whence we
can always retreat despite the shot and shell. From there we begin to
rebuild the joy even as we focus on the hope ahead. It's always
important not to let being thrown off a little sour everything. We need
to have short memories about such things and let the past stay there,
even if it's only just yesterday.
Keeping you in my prayers daily, my friend.
In Jesus,
Bob L.
Question #19:
I recently had a wobble about my old bugbear, apologies! - because I saw
the woman at the well as sinful just because of her latest man, and it
not being at all clear about the previous husbands. They could have been
legitimate. Although she does say to the townsfolk “all I ever did” not
“all I’m doing now”, so perhaps she was not widowed. Previously I was
comforted to note, on the assumption she’d been divorced, that divorce
did effectively end marriage, since all 5 were husbands proper. (If I
need that assurance I have Deut 24.) In the only other passage
mentioning serial husbands, there are seven, but widowhood is in view,
but here it doesn’t say so. You said to me that she was certainly
divorced. May I ask how you can be sure of that please? Might help nail
down the stray thoughts!
It’s all so tantalisingly vague! Needs to be, not to give people a
license to remarry willy billy, I suppose.
One problem with putting worry aside (which was a lovely time) is that
when it comes back out of left field, as I’m afraid it did, I’d
forgotten the defences you’d given me! And so I have reread all your
wonderful words to me, seen many new thoughts that got by me first time,
and so I’m feeling stronger again, but without that key piece of John 4
perhaps?
Response #19:
On the woman at the well, the thing I would take away is that the Lord did not
tell her to marry or divorce or remarry or go back to her first husband or live
celibate – or anything of the sort. That was not His purpose. He was not trying
to correct her behavior; He was trying to get her attention with this statement so
that she would be willing to come to the truth. That is what we are given to
see. But what does this passage really show us? First, it shows us that our Lord
cared about this woman: He spent time with her even though He was tired and even
though it was a frowned upon practice for a man and a prophet to do something
like this, especially for someone "not perfect" (cf. Lk.7:39). Second, it shows
us that what was really important was her turning to the Lord: that was what He
desired and what the conversation effected. She was then saved! Third, it shows
us that she was willing to likewise violate convention and take risks to lead
others to the truth – and so she did! A great many were saved in that town as a
result of her spiritual courage. We should all respond to the Lord as she did.
Her name is written in heaven and her deeds are memorialized in scripture. This
is what we should emulate and contemplate – not her marital status.
There are a great many "perfect people" – in the world's eyes – who are going to
hell. Praise be to God that He searches out every lost sheep who truly desires
to belong to the flock of the Great Shepherd!
Question #20:
Good evening,
I have been reading your articles on divorce and I am terrified. My wife
filed for divorce from me. In the state of Georgia it only takes one to
divorce. I cant stop her. I hate divorce. I have fought and fought hard
for this marriage. We started marriage counseling 4 yrs ago and I
finished my individual portion. My wife went to 2 sessions of hers and
stopped. We have both made our mistakes and contributed to the state of
our marriage. We made a vow to God and each other. I want
reconciliation. She will not. The divorce filing came out of nowhere as
our marriage had actually gotten stronger (I thought) over the last 4
yrs. I asked her why and she said she just didn't love me. We have been
married 15 yrs and have 3 kids. I am so scared. She will not reconcile.
We are both christians. I don't want to let God down. I don't want to be
condemned. Am I to be an outcast the rest of my life? Am I to be alone
the rest of my life? I don't want to twist or bend the scriptures. I
want to honor God. Can you offer any advice?
In Christ,
Response #20:
Good to make your acquaintance.
I'm a bit puzzled by your email. If you have been reading the many Q/As
at Ichthys, while many correspondents express somewhat similar concerns,
my replies certainly don't give any basis for the fear you are
expressing. When you say, "I don't want to be condemned", at Ichthys it
is always made very clear that believers are saved, unbelievers are not.
Marriage and divorce have zero to do with whether or not a person is a
believer. If you are a born again believer in Jesus Christ, then you
have no worries about your eternal future – just as long as you stay
faithful to Him to the end (cf. Col.1:23), maintaining your faithful
allegiance to Him (spiritual
growth is important for that, especially in
the Tribulation soon to come; see the links).
As to the specifics of your situation, I do sympathize with you. But if
what you say is true, then it is not your fault that a divorce is taking
place since you don't want a divorce (not weighing in here on what may
have gone wrong; it's difficult to make a marriage work in this present
world under the best of circumstances; there's usually plenty of blame
to go around). So I hardly see how you could be letting God down in this
respect.
You ask for advice but it seems to me that you have no choice in what is
being presented to you so that there is no action you can take, good or
ill. While this is a terrible thing to have to undergo, it is at least a
small solace when God takes control and takes things completely out of
our hands. That seems to me to be from what you have shared your present
situation. So I would advise you 1) put all this in God's hands where it
clearly is; 2) determine to do your best to draw close to the Lord Jesus
Christ through spiritual growth in the days and years ahead. That is the
best thing any of us can do.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and only Savior,
Bob Luginbill
Question #21:
Thank you for your reply. I guess it has to do with God hating divorce and matthew 19 and sermon on the mount. I guess the issue is I am doing my best. I hate divorce. It was never an option for me. I am concerned about my future. Since divorce is a sin and it was thrust upon me it seems from most of the articles I have read on the subject I must become a hermit. I am like a leper instead of saying unclean I say divorced. And what of my future? If I were to ever encounter a possible relationship am I to shun it so as to not be in a constant state of adultery? Thank you so very much for taking the time. I apologize if I am coming across raw. This is just so painful.
Response #21:
1) "I must become a hermit"; never read THAT in the Bible.
Citation?
2) "I am like a leper instead of saying unclean I say divorced";
never read THAT in the Bible either.
3) "If I were to ever encounter a possible relationship am I to shun
it so as to not be in a constant state of adultery?" This is a
horrific false teaching which is making the rounds nowadays, and the
fact that you repeat it leads me to believe that you have not yet read
what I have posted about this subject. Here is a good recent link which
will lead to many others as you explore the site:
"Love,
Marriage, Divorce and the Bible III".
I hasten to add that although you may conclude that you can remarry
without any spiritual trouble, as I always am required to point out,
marriage itself is trouble (1Cor.7:28b), and that is why I always
summarize the biblical position as follows:
1) Are you single? Stay single.
2) But if you marry, stay married.
3) But if you divorce, stay single.
4) And if you remarry, don't divorce.
Of course, few human beings are capable of being celibate and single
their whole lives long. Marriage is not sin (1Cor.7:28a). Divorcing your
spouse without due cause and marrying someone else is a sin – but there
is no such thing as a "constant state of adultery". Did Jesus tell the
Pharisees either to divorce their new wives or to remarry their old
ones? Of course not. Damage done is damage done. But God forgives sin –
for those who come to Him in faith and ask for forgiveness.
This is all very basic stuff, but in our Laodicean era, most Christians
know precious little about biblical truth. The only way to be successful
in this life – for the Lord – is through spiritual growth. Ichthys is
dedicated to that blessed goal and the eternal rewards that accompany
it. So while I'm happy to have you read about the issue that troubles
you at present and also to answer your questions as best I can, it is
incumbent upon me to point out that no Christian will ever be truly
happy in this life absent a close walk with Jesus Christ – and that is
achieved not just by keeping one's nose clean but critically also
through spiritual growth.
Be pleased to put the Lord first from here on in. You'll never regret
it.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #22:
So I was thinking about the past conversation we have had about certain pastors saying that a second marriage causing someone to go to hell. What makes them believe that what they are saying is so true I mean so true that they actually have people get a divorce? That to me is insane. I guess it don't make any sense to me.
Response #22:
It doesn't make any sense to me either – any BIBLICAL sense.
When it comes to false teaching, however, there are all sorts of reasons
for it, but they resolve into this:
"For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in
among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will
rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after
themselves."
Acts 20:29-30 NKJV
"Pastors" who are not actually teaching the truth of the Word of God or
doing in any way what Jesus Christ wants them to do are concerned for
their stomachs (Phil.3:18-19). That means doing whatever is necessary to
bring in more people and more money. That is the whole game in most
"churches" today in Laodicea. Hyper-legalism is just one approach to
that. Look how upset it got you! So this approach does get people's
attention. Here are the "benefits" I see that those who are harping on
this false teaching receive: 1) notoriety (look how much internet and
"conference" and other attention they get through this particular lie) –
which of course leads to followers and donors; 2) giving a great deal of
self-righteous satisfaction to their followers who have never divorced
or never been divorced by their spouses etc.: these can feel "godly"
because this is pretty much all the pastor ever goes on about and they are
"holy" in this regard so they must be "completely holy" (even if they
are indulging in all sorts of secret sins); 3) for those poor
individuals who let themselves be manipulated into destroying their
lives by doing what these "pastors" tell them is necessary, they become
that pastor's slave for life. Why? Because if you give up everything for
a cult, you can't ever afford to let yourself think or believe you've
made a mistake.
The Nazis and the Communists were/are also very "sure" – as are the
Muslims and the Buddhists and the Mormons and the JWs and the Roman
Catholics, etc., etc.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Romans 10:2 NKJV
As this passage shows, zeal means nothing if it is not directed towards
what is true. It's just a quicker road to hell. And I would label it
ironic that those threatening hell for anyone who doesn't follow them
are actually leading all who do straight down there on a fast track –
except for the fact that this is exactly what the devil wants.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #23:
Yes I will admit it has caused me a lot of anxiety. But I will never
ever leave my husband because one that's insane just to leave someone
cause of someone's else's beliefs and why would I tear up my whole
family. When I'm in my high anxiety it like I say what of they are
saying is real or if it wasn't real them when am I still bothered by it.
I think is that a sign from God telling me it's real just because I
can't completely forget it. But when my anxiety is low then I'll see how
dumb it is. I can't believe people have actually done it before I hate
that this has caused me so much anxiety and it makes me wonder if that's
a sign from God saying its real. I wish I couldn't just go back or get
it completely out of my mind.
Also where do they get that that is right in their own mind and they
truly believe that what they are saying is true?
Response #23:
I certainly am happy to hear that you wouldn't seriously consider doing
something these people say to do – when they don't have a single Bible verse
saying to do it – out of fear of consequences the Bible itself does not
threaten. Any one of us could make up all sorts of stuff to scare people,
threatening hell if they don't do it. Getting people to believe it would be the
challenging part – especially since it wouldn't be in the Bible – but there are
enough out there who allow fear and guilt to get the better of them that cults
usually find some victims.
To put aside misplaced guilt and fear, we do have to aggressively apply the
truth in faith so as to get over some stumbling blocks – and we all face them
(they're just different, person to person). Spiritual growth is the key to
getting better at this, I hasten to add. We can't just concentrate on the
particular hurdle we're having trouble with; it has to be a broad-based effort
to walk closer with Jesus through attention to all the truth He's given us.
"Also where do they get that that is right in their own mind and they truly
believe that what they are saying is true?"
If I knew the answer to that one I'd be head of the Psychology and Brain Science
department! Or as it says in scripture in regard to guidance in dealing with
such people:
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
2nd Timothy 2:24-26 NKJV
In Jesus our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #24:
Please can I ask is there any exception to remarriage after divorce? Assuming marrying a divorced person is adultery, children born in such harmony before the understanding of such or even born as result of fornication where do they stand with God?
Response #24:
When you write, "Assuming marrying a divorced person is adultery",
whatever the true circumstances were when the marriage was contracted, 1)
Christians are supposed to stay married thereafter if at all possible; and 2)
children are certainly NOT to be penalized for any indiscretion on this score by their
parents (1Cor.7:14). It is possible to "wrongly marry", but then it is possible
to commit all number of sins (and everyone sins: e.g., Rom.3:23; 1Jn.1:5-10).
The time to be concerned about "whether or not it was completely legitimate" is
before, not after marriage. There is an evil false doctrine / false movement
sweeping evangelicaldom that asserts that if there was any such problem with the
marriage, then the couple should divorce. That is horrific. The Bible NEVER
counsels divorce. If a person divorced their faithful spouse in order to marry
another person and then did so – that is what the Pharisees are reproached by
our Lord for doing – then no doubt it will be necessary to confess and repent.
But our Lord did NOT tell the Pharisees to divorce wife #2 and go back to wife
#1 (cf. Deut.24:1-4). Why not? Because that would be trying to right one wrong
with another wrong: if we marry, we are obligated to the one we marry. If we
divorce and break that obligation, nothing can go back and repair that broken
egg – and certainly NOT divorcing AGAIN.
Here is a recent link which will lead to many others for the details: "Marriage
and the Bible VIII".