Question #1:
Dear Dr. and brother Luginbill,
I need a little clarification on just how do the fallen angels experience the sensual feelings that mankind does. I agree that they have to possess the body of a willing person, but what I don't understand is, how do they experience this sensuality that mankind does?
This is your comment on your study.
Without possessing a body, it is impossible to experience the sensual life of the body.
I agree with your analysis of the angels leaving their "first estate" because they believed and followed Satan, who told them they could experience something that did not possess, namely a material body. So they actually possessed a body of a willing person. Can you please clarify how they went about feeling the same sensual pleasure and how their genes got mixed with the seed of the human.
The following is from your study:
The Angelic Infiltration of Genesis 6: As both Jude 6 and 2nd Peter 2:4 make clear, "the sons of God coming in to [mate with] the daughters of men" was a Satanic attack of immense proportions which violated God's ground rules for the resolution of the angelic rebellion in human history.
Here is what Jude 6 Says:
" 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
Here is what 2 Peter 2:4 says:
"4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
So, there must have been other angels, because these two verses show that they have been bound with everlasting chains. These verses don't mention any cohabitation with humans or am I missing something?
Can you please clarify this also? Appreciate your effort so much.
May His Love and Grace and Mercy abound in us.
Response #1:
I'm not sure about the "how". We're not given as much information as we would like to have about angelic kind, and that is no doubt for some good reason. Even more difficult questions: how are they able to procreate with mankind, seeing as how they have no physical bodies as we do (but they did do so: Gen.6:1-4); or how they can affect material things even though they are essentially immaterial (but they do: e.g., Job 1:13-19); or how was the devil able to take our Lord in His humanity and show Him the kingdoms of the world in an instant of time (but he did: Lk.4:5). One could go on. The point is that angels can do things which we wouldn't be able to anticipate them being able to do if scripture didn't describe them as doing them. The "how" is going to be necessarily unknowable to a large degree given our essential ignorance about the angelic nature. As I point out in the link ("The Nature of Angels"), angels are usually described as "immaterial", but seeing as how they have visible characteristics which parallel those of human beings and are likewise confined to one time and space at a time, the common opposition of "material vs. immaterial" is clearly deficient in understanding of the angelic nature.
We do have plenty of information from scripture to indicate that the patterns described at the link in SR 4 (which you are asking about, I believe) are true, even if we still have questions about the "how". For example, when our Lord commanded the "legion" of demons who had taken up residence in the Gerasene demoniac, they begged our Lord "to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission" (Lk.8:32 NIV). Why did they ask this? Clearly, they had no need of these animals for any particular reason we can see – except to note that demons are apparently like drug addicts in this respect. Once they've possessed a physical body the prospect of being without it is hard to bear, and they are eager not to lose the experience, even if it means substituting a pig for a man. So how do they interface with human hosts? We can see in the case of many demon possessed individuals that the demon is able to control the physical actions of the individuals in question entirely against their will; if they can interface to the point of manipulating physical bodies to perform their own will, since those physical acts are entirely connected to feelings and senses in the human being, it would almost seem to be a necessity that they have access to the one as well as to the other.
As to your question in the final email, it is clear from Genesis 6:1-4 that there was such cohabitation which produced the Nephilim; since that is undeniable in the passage to which the New Testament verses you quoted refer, there is no need to rehearse those prior events in their entirety:
(1) Now it came to pass that when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them, (2) the sons of God (i.e., the fallen angels) noticed the daughters of men, that they were beautiful. So they took wives for themselves from all whom they selected. (3) And God said, "My Spirit will not strive with Man forever in their sinful manner of life – for this [is the way of] flesh. Therefore his days shall be 120 years." (4) The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and afterwards as well. For when the sons of God (i.e., the fallen angels) went in to the daughters of men, they bore to them those "mighty-ones" (i.e., the Nephilim) whose names are famous from ancient times.
Genesis 6:1-4 NKJV
But the NT passages do allude to this in ways that make the connection unmistakable:
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but plunged them into Tartarus with its gloomy pits (i.e., the Abyss), preserving them for the [day of] judgment, and did not spare the antediluvian world, but kept safe Noah as a proclaimer of righteousness and the seven with him when He brought the flood upon the ungodly inhabitants of the world, and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes and making them an example to those bent on similar ungodly behavior, and rescued righteous Lot who was tormented by the depraved lifestyle of those lawless men – for through the things he saw and heard just by dwelling among them this righteous man was damaging his righteous way of life day by day on account of their lawless deeds. For the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment – especially those who in their lust pursue the polluting of the flesh and so despise [God's] divine authority.
2nd Peter 2:4-10aAnd the angels who did not keep to their own realm but deserted their proper habitation He has imprisoned with everlasting chains in the gloom below (i.e., in the Abyss) in anticipation of the judgment of that great day.
Jude 1:6
The sin of these fallen angels is compared to that of Sodom and Gomorrah, that is, unnatural sexual behavior. What was their "sin" if not this? And what was the abandonment of their proper habitation if not cohabitation with human beings?
Only some of the fallen angels were involved in this episode; God had no doubt made it clear ahead of time that this behavior was out of bounds and would be severely punished. It goes to show how appealing possession and sensuality are to the demons that so many would indulge even at the risk of imprisonment in the Abyss – a fate that terrifies them (Lk.8:31).
Hope this helps -- there are many links at Ichthys to the Nephilim and the issues related to them. Here are few:
Nephilim, Fallen Angels, and Genesis 6
The Paternal Origin of Antichrist (Satan's Seed)
The 7 Trumpets, the 7 Kings, Nephilim, Antichrist and Revived Rome.
The Origin and Fate of the "Giants" of Genesis Chapter Six.
Dinosaurs, the Nephilim, Noah, et al.
Eschatology Issues: The Nephilim
Satan, Antichrist, the False Prophet and the Mark of the Beast
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #2:
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and afterwards as well (i.e., both before and after the start of the 120 year grace period before the flood). For when the sons of God went in to the daughters of men, they bore to them those "mighty-ones" (i.e., the Nephilim) whose names are famous from ancient times.
Genesis 6:4
Keil and Delitzsch interpret this verse differently and one of the key reasons is the meaning they ascribe to the words "in those days", which, according to them signifies that the Nephilim existed before the sons of God began to marry the daughters of man:
To an unprejudiced mind, the words, as they stand, represent the Nephilim, who were on the earth in those days, as existing before the sons of God began to marry the daughters of men, and clearly distinguish them from the fruits of these marriages. ??? can no more be rendered "they became, or arose," in this connection, than ??? in Genesis 1:2. ????? would have been the proper word. The expression "in those days" refers most naturally to the time when God pronounced the sentence upon the degenerate race; but it is so general and comprehensive a term, that it must not be confined exclusively to that time, not merely because the divine sentence was first pronounced after these marriages were contracted, and the marriages, if they did not produce the corruption, raised it to that fulness of iniquity which was ripe for the judgment, but still more because the words "after that" represent the marriages which drew down the judgment as an event that followed the appearance of the Nephilim.
What is your take on this?
Response #2:
"To an unprejudiced mind" is merely a piece of rhetoric; those of us with the opposite point of view do not hold it out of prejudice (quite the contrary). Verses one through three describe the actions of the fallen angels before there is any mention of the nephilim in verse four – who are thus clearly a result of this cohabitation. That is indeed the real meaning of the Hebrew phrasing here, with the conjunction 'asher constituting an explanatory clause: "For when the sons of God went in to the daughters of men, they bore to them those "mighty-ones" (i.e., the Nephilim) whose names are famous from ancient times"; this is my translation. I note that most versions get 'asher wrong, taking it is temporal and contemporary rather than as explanatory of the prior event just described in the previous three verses and then expanded upon in verse four and following. I note that the Vulgate and the Septuagint (and also, anomalously, the NLT!) get it right.
Question #3:
You wrote about Genesis 6:3: The pre-flood satanic attack on the human race in the days before the great deluge brought true humanity to the brink of elimination.14 Angelic cohabitation with "the daughters of men" had begun to produce a not-quite-human population that came close to being universal (Gen.6:1-2; cf.2Pet.2:4-5; Jude 1:6-7). Known in scripture as "nephilim" ("fallen ones"), these angelically engineered offspring are described as "men of renown" (see Gen.6:4). But though powerful in their bodies, this new hybrid race was virulently hostile to God and, by implication, to God's true people (Gen.6:5 and 6:9). Only the restraint of the Holy Spirit described in the verse above enabled Adam's unpolluted seed to coexist with these monsters until the time when God eradicated them from the earth (Gen.6:5-9). Instead of being allowed to destroy the remaining genuine human beings completely, the nephilim were restrained by the Spirit, allowing Noah, the last of his generation to walk with God, not only to survive but to thrive spiritually - and to be a "preacher of righteousness" who became God's instrument for the deliverance of his family and the entire true human race (2Pet.2:5).
In their commentary for Genesis 6 Keil and Delitzsch deny the possibility of angelic cohabitation, they also interpret Genesis 6:4 differently with regard to the Nephilim. You probably read their interpretation of these verses - what is your take on their view?
Response #3:
I can't agree with it. K&D are good but not perfect. Keil wrote the Pentateuch commentary and it suffers from his pedantic Lutheranism. Luther thought demon infiltration was ludicrous . . . https://archive.org/stream/commentaryongene02luth#page/132/mode/1up
. . . first, because it offended his sensibilities, second, because of his antisemitic tendencies and the fact that Jewish tradition is not far off the mark in interpreting this event. As to Keil's theorizing (we note he actually quotes Delitzsch as being "wrong" on this!), he follows Luther in seeing "sons of God" as a "covenant title" which is supposed to explain everything, and spends most of his time trying to prove that the clear meaning of scripture is unseemly and admits of alternative interpretation, spending most of his ink on the opposition between "daughters of men" and "sons of God". Indeed, the opposition (i.e., between sons of God and daughters of men) is an argument in favor of seeing this issue the correct way (one I have never used), but it is not the only one nor the strongest one; Keil thinks it weak and uses it as strawman while ignoring the more pressing issue: why should any of this sexual procreation which must have been going on for years to have such a large population suddenly be mentioned in this manner if it were "normal"? And if the "sons of God" are normal human men, why are they called this here? If there is some other distinction (rather than between types of humans, normal and nephilim), why is that not made clear in context? Just an example of the fact that the alternative theories always cause many more problems than they solve, a sure indication of an incorrect interpretation. The straightforward one only causes problems for those who don't want to believe what Genesis actually says is possible or actually happened. With that hermeneutic, all manner of heresy is possible.
Question #4:
Caleb went and killed the three sons of Anak which I understand to be giants, but in one section of Joshua I re call it says that there were still others in a different place. Now would these others be the five who David killed later? just wondering.
Thanks
Response #4:
These "sons of Anak" and also the very large Philistines (Goliath and those related to him) were genetic aberrations (like some of the specimens we see in the NBA and NFL, e.g.), but they were not a separate species of any kind (no angelic "DNA" – they were not nephilim). They were sometimes called "giants" (an English rendering from a Greek word used in the LXX for the nephilim), but that was along the lines of us calling a very large person a "giant" – we don't actually think the person is not completely human. Please see Q/A #4 at the link: Nephilim
Question #5:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
I was listening to someone preach about fallen angels, and he said that the Nephilim are the fallen angels and not the offspring of the fallen angels and women. He was also taking about how Protestants are all in the dark regarding "alien deception", or demons posing as aliens during the end times and delivering false gospels and an even an alien savior. He said that he heard all the arguments regarding the Nephilim and have studied extensively Hebrew and Greek. He said the offspring of the fallen angels and humans are not Nephilim, but Rephaim (don't know if spelled correctly). Are the fallen angels the Nephilim as he states? He also spoke on portals and stargates that these evil entities go through and even alien bases on different planets and solar systems, and says that if we're not aware of them, then we are ignorant Christians and are afraid of the truth. It was very difficult for me to maintain my composure because the way he spoke was as an arrogant, holier than thou, attitude. What are your thoughts on this.
The same guy who spoke on the Nephilim said that angels had cities and civilizations on Earth long before God created man. He also said that there were other sentient beings that also dwelled on Earth before man. I can't find this in the bible. I can't even find this when God spoke about the things He created on each day.
Thanks in advance and have a blessed New Year.
Response #5:
Speaking of false prophets, our Lord said, "by their fruits you shall know them" (Matt.7:16). So this person's overall behavior ought to be a warning sign. Also, anyone who speaks about angels "going through portals and star gates" as if it were fact is clearly engaging in radical and extra-biblical speculation of the most dangerous sort.
The Nephilim were not angels but the offspring of humans and fallen angels just as Genesis chapter six makes clear in any straightforward reading of it. Here are the pertinent links at Ichthys for the details:
Nephilim, Fallen Angels, and Genesis 6
Giants and Nephilim
The Paternal Origin of Antichrist (Satan's Seed)
The 7 Trumpets, the 7 Kings, Nephilim, Antichrist and Revived Rome.
The Nature of Angels
The Nephilim in Genesis 6
"The Nephilim" (in SR 5)
The Origin and Fate of the "Giants" of Genesis Chapter Six.
Antichrist and the Nephilim
Dinosaurs, the Nephilim, Noah, et al.
Eschatology Issues: The Nephilim
Doubts about the Nephilim
The Rephaim (Deut.3:11; cf. Gen.14:5) were a race of exceptionally tall human beings whose stature called to mind the stories of the Nephilim – but they were entirely human (cf. pygmies who are exceptionally short yet 100% human).
The bit you include regarding warnings about "alien deception" may have the reverse effect getting Christians to consider the existence of aliens. This is a new sort of Gnosticism, a worship of beings beyond what we can see which have nothing to do with the One true God – and which also do not really exist. There is no salvation down the road of Gnosticism inasmuch as it always seeks to reduce Christ to creature status, denying His deity.
As to pre-Adamic "people" or "creatures", I note that this person has no evidence and also that these statements are prima facie contradictory to the true account given in Genesis.
I would strongly advise you to have nothing to do with this person and his teachings – or indeed with persons of this sort and teachings of this sort. It says in Proverbs,
The words of a talebearer are like tasty trifles,
And they go down into the inmost body.
Proverbs 18:8 NKJV
False tales, whatever their consistency, go damage to the heart when they are heard, even if a Christian tries to remain completely skeptical.
Happy New Year to you and yours, my friend!
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #6:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,
The bible says that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, and that the fallen angels that sinned are in everlasting chains. I thought what judgment would the Nephilim have? Are they condemned along with the fallen angels and humans who refuse to repent and turn to the Lord?
Thanks in advance!
God Bless you and your ministry,
Response #6:
It's an interesting question (good to hear from you!). I believe we may have discussed before how that "what nephilim are exactly" is somewhat unknown to us. They have human bodies as a result of interaction between fallen angels and human beings – but do they have human spirits? That is what makes a human being "a living person" as in Genesis 2:7, and, as at Genesis 2:7, it is God who creates this spirit within the person in question at the point of birth. Does He do this in the case of monsters such as the nephilim? I see no biblical indication of that. What I do know is that the beast and the false prophet – who are nephilim – are deposited into the Lake of Fire without standing judgment. That would be an indication that since they are not moral creatures from the hand of God, the nephilim are not entitled to be shown by Him why they are being disposed of in this way. But they will end up in the lake of fire in any case – just like antichrist and his prophet.
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #7:
Dear Dr. and Brother,
I have been researching scripture to determine if there is any link of the Nephilim to Ham, Noah's son. I put together the lineage and came up with this scenario: Both Abraham & Moses are connected to Midian thru marriage. Midian was the son of Abraham thru Keturah. Zipporah was the daughter of the Midianite Priest (Jethro, known as Reuel] whom Moses took to wife. ipporah was a Cushite according to Numbers 12:1 – "1Now Miryam and Aharon spoke against Mosheh because of the Kushite woman whom he had taken, for he had taken a Kushite woman. Since Zipporah was a Cushite that would make her father (Jethro) a Cushite also. Cannot trace Zipporah and her lineage back to Kena an the son of Ham, or Cush the son of Ham. I am wondering if you could shed some light on this subject, and if I am on the right track, that is, is there a connection between the Nephilim and Ham or? One of the wives on that Ark with Noah ( I believe it was Ham's wife), carried the genome of the giants, or am I incorrect.
Help, as you always do. Precious blessings to you and your ministry.
Response #7:
Good to hear from you.
I have heard this hypothesis before, but I don't see any evidence of it from the Bible. The entire reason for the great flood was to wipe out these creatures. It doesn't make a lot of sense for God to have gone to all that trouble and to have allowed the genetic disease of the nephilim on the ark anyway. The penalty for the fallen angels involved in this "abandoning of their first estate" was incarceration in the Abyss; they have been there ever since, and their fate has been a palliative for other such incursions. True enough, at this late date in history there will be (or more likely already have been) a handful of violations on the part of the devil and perhaps some of his highest commanders (to produce antichrist, the false prophet, and the ten kings). But between the flood and the end times, there have apparently been no such violations (such is the fear of the demons of the consequences: cf. Lk.8:31). The curse on Canaan (there is no curse directly on Ham so "the curse of Ham" is a bit of a misnomer as it is often portrayed) is a prophetic anticipation of the relative idolatry of the peoples descended down that part of Ham's line, namely, those who would inhabit the land of promise before Israel did – and who were pushed out precisely because of their exceptional wickedness (Deut.9:5). Here are some links wherein these and similar matters are discussed:
Nephilim, Fallen Angels, and Genesis 6
The Paternal Origin of Antichrist (Satan's Seed)
The 7 Trumpets, the 7 Kings, Nephilim, Antichrist and Revived Rome.
The Nature of Angels
The Nephilim in Genesis 6The Origin and Fate of the "Giants" of Genesis Chapter Six.
Dinosaurs, the Nephilim, Noah, et al.
Yours in Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #8:
Hello Dr.
I now fully understand what you are saying about the Nephillim since I read the info on the link you sent. Once the angelic seed was introduced into the human gene pool, sooner or later every human family would become infected and spread that infection (always by choice), until at last there would be no possibility of a pure line for the Messiah. I can absolutely agree with you now that I have had a chance to think about the above statement, which is absolutely true. I also clearly understand and agree with you on what you say on the following verse:
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and afterwards as well (i.e., both before and after the start of the 120 grace period before the flood). For when the sons of God went in to the daughters of men, they bore to them those "mighty-ones" (i.e., the Nephilim) whose names are famous from ancient times.
I was reading this to mean something entirely different, because I never took into account what the previous verse says:
3And said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever in his going astray. He is flesh, and his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
The 120 years is referring to the Nephilim - and mankind - and as you say - both before and after the start of the 129 year grace period before the flood. Interesting, when you look at these verses more closely. Anyway, after all these years, I finally understand these verses. Whew. Took me a long time. Thank you so very much for sharing your knowledge of His precious Word with me and a multitude ( I believe) of other believers. I truly appreciate it so much, I can't even express how much I have learned in just the short time I have been studying. You are truly a GOD anointed brother.
May The Almighty grant you good health and time to finish the calling He has on your life.
Response #8:
Thanks for the encouraging and thoughtful email (Ps.115:1).
I appreciate your thirst for the truth and love of the Word of God.
In Jesus Christ who is our all and our everything,
Bob L.
Question #9:
Hello Robert, hope everything is well. I was reading Numbers and came across the following in the ESV, "and there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak come from the Nephilim)". How can it state that the sons of Anak come from the Nephilim when they were wiped out in the flood and the only survivors were Noah's family? I saw you had answered some questions related to this but I didn't see an explanation to how the scripture states this fact, only that the spies had lied but this sentence seems to be a statement separate from that and bracketed.
How does it read in the Hebrew?
Blessings,
Response #9:
Good to hear from you too, my friend!
As to your question, the words in parentheses in the ESV are actually part of the direct quote from the spies (there are no parentheses in the Hebrew text):
"and there we saw the Nephilim – sons of Anak from the Nephilim! – and [compared to them] we seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes – and that's the way we seemed to them too!"
Numbers 13:33
ESV takes the phrase I have put in em dashes as a gloss: ("now, to explain, the Nephilim were sons of Anak"). That is not how the text reads; in Hebrew it is in direct apposition to what precedes without any conjunction which is somewhat unusual (representing here excited speech in a direct quote).
Let me point out that even if the phrase in question were a gloss that is part of the actual text, it would only be telling the reader who the real Nephilim were; i.e., one could not logically, on the basis of this ostensible gloss even assume that because of the gloss the spies were correct in their assessment. Indeed, one might wish such a gloss here to demonstrate just how outrageous the claims were: everyone who's read Genesis knows that these individuals were on earth before the flood and that only Noah and his family survived the flood – no Nephilim, and nobody else, either.
The ESV, generally a pretty good version in my estimation, takes unaccustomed liberty with the translation here too in order to make their theory of what is going on sound right in English; Hebrew says literally ". . . the Nephilim, sons of Anak from the Nephilim, and . . .").
So however one wants to consider this passage, it's very clear what is going on, namely, an attempt by the cowardly ten spies to dissuade their fellow Israelites from doing what God commanded them to do. This is somewhat akin, I suppose, to some weak brother during the Tribulation to come saying something like, "You're not going to take the mark?! Brother, they'll boil you in oil after they skin you alive if you don't!!!".
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #10:
Hi Bob,
Suppose that a baby nephilim was born, and perished during the flood. Does it go to heaven or hell? Should we deduce from this that no baby nephilim perished, but the flood happened when all the nephilim had enough accountability to reject God? And if there were nephilim that perished during the flood, are they sentenced to hell automatically because Christ didn't die for them?
Also, what does "and also afterwards" mean in Genesis 6:4? "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown." (Genesis 6:4)
Response #10:
Nephilim are not God's creatures; they are genetic manipulations spawned by the devil and his minions. I have mentioned before that they could not have a true human spirit unless God made one for them (and there is no indication He has nor any reason I can see that He should). So they are physical beings but not spiritual beings (i.e., apparently not dichotomous like we are). Thus, they are not made in the image of God. As such, they would not be entitled to a last judgment, any more than a dog or a cat. There is much we do not know about the specifics, obviously, but all of our information in the cases of the "mighty men", the kings of Revelation, the false prophet and the beast indicates that these individuals have no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and seem to have nothing like a conscience which would at least indicate the choice between good and evil with which all who are made in the image of God struggle – so as to lead them to Christ if they are but willing. Nephilim are not human even if they resemble human beings; as offspring of fallen angels they are "super-human" non-humans, and thus no more interested in grace than they are entitled to it:
For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
Hebrews 2:16
As to "also afterwards" in Genesis 6:4, this means "both before and after the start of the 120 grace period before the flood" (as explained at the link), that is, the violation of the orders didn't just happen on one day but over an extended period of time.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #11:
Hi Bob,
If nephilim are not dichotomous, then how can they survive death? Wouldn't their being disintegrate when their body does?
Sincerely,
Response #11:
Even animals have spirits. Where do the nephilim get theirs? My guess is (and it is only a guess because the Word does not go into details on this so far as I can determine) that this quasi-spirit comes not from God but is somehow a concoction of the fallen angels. Angels are spirit beings but can affect things materially so as to produce physical offspring in human beings; these offspring, the nephilim, thus had (have in the case of the beast and his lieutenants) bodies which were at least half angelic. Angels do not have spirits; they are spirits – although as I have noted before (see the link), their "spirit" is not exactly "non-material" in the way medieval philosophy posited the spiritual / material opposition. They have substance, but it is invisible to us. And nephilim have that part conjoined in their physical bodies. We are off into speculation here. Suffice it do say that antichrist, e.g., is just such a creature, that he is thrown into the lake of fire, and that he after that he "is there" without being destroyed:
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 NKJV
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #12:
One more thing, since this topic was discussed in the last email exchange we had (albeit it was nine months ago), I would like to get your take on something related to "Nephilim" after the flood. I do like your interpretation better than that of those who bring in the Book of Enoch and other apocryphal and pseudepigraphical texts. Now, I think the case is plain that Goliath, Og of Bashan, the Anakim, et al. were people of great stature, towering over the Israelites, even if they were all not actually Nephilim (i.e. human-angelic hybrids). What I would like to know is whether it’s possible that these people called "giants" after the flood were actually the product, not of sexual intercourse between fallen angels and humans, but of genetic engineering of humans by fallen angels. If there are still fallen angels on the earth, after the ones involved in reproducing with human women in Genesis 6 are locked in chains in Jude verse 6, then obviously not all of them were involved in that particular sinful episode. Perhaps the remaining fallen angels learned from the mistakes of their comrades and decided that they could still corrupt the human race genetically by engineering the DNA of certain individuals (in my theory it would start with Nimrod) to give them great stature. This theory would explain: 1. why God commands the Israelites to kill every single person in certain groups when taking over the Promised Land (i.e. because they were genetically corrupted); 2. why the "giants" after the flood were smaller in size than the Nephilim before the flood; 3. why there are tales among most of the indigenous peoples of the Americas of a race of 8-12 ft. tall white people with red hair, six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, who they fought wars with hundreds of years before the Conquistadors came (all of the gigantic bones that have been unearthed in the Americas have been hidden and covered up by the Smithsonian and the Vatican to deliberately conceal proof in the Bible’s validity over the theory of evolution—and if you just go back to the 19th century anthropology books you find mention of giants, and even Abraham Lincoln has a famous quote about the literal giants who once inhabited the lands that are now the United States); and 4. why the record of megalithic architecture (whose origin I can only explain by the existence of literal giants—i.e. I think the Giza pyramids were built by the Nephilim—and, remember, I am a structural engineer by secular profession) shows some structures that seem to be built before the flood and others after the flood with notable differences (i.e. the pre-flood structures are larger and grander like the aforementioned pyramids, and though very similar both in their occult significance and in their impossibility for people to reproduce with modern technology, the post flood structures are much smaller in size like Stonehenge). Do you think this genetic engineering theory is at least possible (even if you can’t say it’s true)?
Response #12:
On the Nephilim question, I have written a lot about this as you are aware (let me know if you'd like me to send along a list of links). What is not well understood about these creatures is that they are not really human in the most important sense. They have self-determination, but not the image of God, having been brought into the world not through divine will but by the will of evil creatures. This is why, for example, antichrist and the false prophet can be thrown into the lake of fire without any sort of trial. There is no need to check to see whether or not they are in the Book of Life because only human beings are in the Book of Life. So nephilim, in terms of their status, are more like angels (fallen angels in particular) than they are human beings. However it is that the demons who are/were involved in this activity animated the offspring they produced, they were not able to give these monsters true human spirits. On the issue of some remnant of the nephilim continuing in the world after the flood, we can be sure that nothing of their line came down through the only eight human beings who survived the flood, Noah and his family: he was "perfect in his generations" and so were his family. So for examples in the Bible where there are exceptional or aberrational individuals and groups, I have weighed in on this before: these variations fall within normal human patterns and are not evidence of the sort of truly super-human qualities which Genesis chapter six describes (and which antichrist and his cadre will exemplify). As far as the non-biblical speculation out there is concerned, I would be reluctant to alter what is a solidly scriptural position based upon possible extra-biblical evidence.
Question #13:
Hi Dr. Luginbill,
I have a some random questions that I thought of while studying the book of Daniel and the Tribulation concerning the 10 kings/horns/kingdoms. You may have already answered these for other readers and if so, just direct me to those pages at Ichthys.
Questions on the timing of the 10 kings and the antichrist coming into power:
1) In Daniel chapter 7, the 10 horns are described as existing on the 4th beast, then Daniel sees the little horn sprout up among them. Does this mean that the 10 kingdoms/coalitions ruled over by the 10 kings will be in place for a certain period of time before the antichrist comes into power (in Babylon then eventually Revived Rome)? So, we will see some major political changes in Europe and the Middle East before the antichrist starts to gain power in the U.S.A.?
2) Do you think the 10 kingdoms/coalitions will be formed before the official start of the Tribulation or right after? Or could the coalitions/kingdoms be formed before the start of the Tribulation, but the 10 kings do not gain power of those coalitions/kingdoms until after the 7th seal is broken?
Questions on the motivation/nature of the 10 kings and the 3 that will oppose the antichrist:
Revelation 17:12 says that the 10 kings "…have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast." (NIV)
1) Is the word "beast" in the above verse referring to Satan, NOT the antichrist?
2) This "one purpose" of the 10 kings to serve the beast, is it referring to their entire reason for existing, the purpose God has chosen for them to fulfill or a conscious purpose/choice that they made to live for Satan (or both)? Is it possible that they are not aware that they worship Satan and they don’t realize how evil they are/will become? Do they think they are accomplishing "good?" Three of the kings will wage war against the antichrist so they cannot have the conscious desire/purpose to serve the antichrist, but by playing "their role" in all of this they are still serving Satan. These three kings will most likely be Muslim and will wage war in the name of Allah. Do they actually worship Allah or just hide behind that idol for the sake of their followers while truly worship Satan? I know even if they believe in Allah, it is still Satan worship.
3) It is Satan that gives these 10 kings their power, NOT the antichrist, YET they will live/breath/exist to serve Satan and his son once his son comes into power. So, if we are about to go into the tribulation soon, these 10 kings are alive and plotting all of this as we speak? Whoever these people are (politicians, current rulers, people who have yet to gain any power), they are making plans help the antichrist gain power. Do they have a "Satanic ministry" in the same way Christians have a ministry given to us by Christ?
4) Is it possible that one of these rulers might be a woman, even though Scripture uses the word "king/kings?"
5) You said there is a strong possibility that the 10 kings are part demon like the antichrist. Theoretically, is it possible for someone who is part demon to be saved? Scripture does not say that any of the Nephilim were saved in the Old Testament and the 10 kings are not believers, but if someone is part demon and part human, do they have free-will? Just because they are part demon, that does not make it impossible for them to chose to follow Christ?
Thank you again for answering my questions!
In Christ's Love,
Response #13:
It's always good to hear from you.
On your questions:
Timing 1): That is my understanding of the matter. The seven kings (and the three kings) seem to be in place almost immediately, and antichrist rises later. There is nothing in any of the biblical evidence that I have found which would lead me to say dogmatically that all of this couldn't happen within a few months time after the Tribulation has begun. However, it is also true that in history most major political developments have antecedents. So I would not be willing to say that some of these things might not begin to happen before the Tribulation commences. What I would be very reluctant to do would be to infer too much from events on the ground before the fact. That is because we are only given the outline, not the details, so that it would be very easy to jam present day scenario X into the tribulational framework. For example, Putin would seem to make a very persuasive candidate for one of the seven kings. Trouble is, he very well might not be one (in fact, I rather suspect that the beast's ten compatriots will be exceptional for their youth as well as for their abilities); and if we erroneously make such connections before the fact, it will potentially affect our ability to discern the truth and apply it correctly later on because of our committing to a certain pet idea.
Timing 2): I have to give you the same essential answer here. Things are already happening historically at an increasingly rapid rate (as any serious student of history can easily affirm). During the Tribulation, once the Holy Spirit is no longer restraining the devil's manipulation of human affairs in the same way as at present (2Thes.2:6-9), we can expect the pace at which things develop to accelerate beyond present comprehension. What that means is that there is no necessity for anything to be "in place" before the Tribulation actually begins; however, there is also no reason why there can't be the development of some necessary antecedents prior to that event. So while I am as interested as anyone else about what is happening in the world for that very reason, the two things it seems to me which are necessary to avoid are a) on the one hand getting too wrapped up in the details for precisely the reasons given above, and b) on the other hand becoming too lackadaisical about the coming Tribulation because the necessary ground work does not seem to have been laid.
Motivation 1): The word at Revelation 17:12 is indeed "beast" (Gr. therion), a word used in this book exclusively for antichrist and/or his false prophet, but never for the devil (who is "the dragon"). Cf. Rev.20:10a: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown" (NIV).
Motivation 2): My position on this is that the ten are all most likely nephilim (as antichrist is), so that they are not "human beings" in the way in which we mean it (half human only and more like angels even though they appear more like human beings), and are not to be judged or thought about in the same way we consider other human beings. Since they are Satan's "products" so to speak, it's not a question of possessing the image of God and making choices the way we think about them. I believe that even the earlier alliance of the three under the Mahdi is only one of satanic convenience. After all, one of the reason for his defeat at the hands of the beast is their treasonous conduct towards their putative master:
Nevertheless, he (i.e., the king of the south) will not be able to stand [against the king of the north], for they (i.e., the three subordinate southern kings) shall devise plots against [the king of the south]. (26) For those who eat his choice food (i.e., his inner circle) will break him, and [this is why] his force will flood away, and many will fall slain. (27) And though these two kings (i.e., antichrist and the Mahdi) set their hearts on evil and speak lies at the same table (i.e., a peace conference), it will not prosper, for there will yet be an end to the period [of the Great Tribulation].
Daniel 11:25b-27
Motivation 3): That the devil is behind the assignment of power is a reasonable assumption (cf. Rev.13:4). The entire course of events from an earthly perspective has been planned by him and will be carried out by him with all of his remaining resources. It is his "last chance" to head off the kingdom and win the conflict (a vain hope, as we know quite well). However, as with point two, it's probably better to think of all of these creatures more as satanic robots or animals than as human beings – though they will appear human, even super-human. Since they don't have the image of God, they are not the same as we are in the most essential point: possessing free will wherein we are given to choose our eternal future. What the activities of the ten are at this point in time, I cannot say. It is also reasonable to assume that they are in process of preparing to carry out the plan of the devil. It does seem necessary for them to be on earth at this present moment, given the projected time for the Tribulation's commencement. But they need not be adults just yet. Alexander conquered most of the known world in his twenties and Mozart wrote some of the most sublime music in human history though only living into his mid-thirties. These kings will be nephilim, and no doubt specially bred for the purpose the devil has for them. So I think it is fair to say that they will be prodigies of an unprecedented type in the same way antichrist will be. One of the reasons for their rapid rise and dramatic success must certainly be their exceptional natures which will amaze the world of unbelievers.
People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?"
Revelation 13:4 NIV
Motivation 4): It's an interesting question. Since this is a college, the fact that "kings" is used is not a decisive argument against one of them being a "queen". However, in Genesis 6:4 it says of the nephilim, "They were the heroes of old, men of renown" (NIV). In my opinion, it is more difficult (though perhaps not impossible) for these two phrases in Hebrew to admit of the inclusion of women therein. And if that is the pattern, the pattern is likely to continue.
Motivation 5): I think this has largely been addressed above. Let me put it this way. You and I have the image of God given to us by God. It was imparted to us in our human spirit which God gave to us – formed within us – at the moment of our physical birth. Since it is the human spirit given by God which bears the image of God, satanically engendered beings could only have the image of God, possess actual choice / free will, if God honored that diabolical engineering by giving them human spirits. This I do not believe He has done. How, exactly then, are nephilim physically alive without God-given spirits? Possibly through demon possession from birth; possibly through the imparting of some non-divine spirit; possibly because as half angels their bodies are extra-material in the manner of angelic bodies. That is all speculation. We do know that the beast and his false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20), so "they" are sentient creatures, even if not human.
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #14:
Hi Bob,
I trust you are doing, well! This question may have no biblical basis, but considering your work on The Satanic Rebellion, I thought you might have some thoughts to share.
In scripture, we read of the second resurrection and final death positioned to occur after the millennial reign of Christ. At this time, the dead who are raised back to life gather together with the dragon (Satan, adversary, etc.) and all the peoples of the earth war in the final battle against the King of Kings.
This is my question?
(After the 1,000 years) When the dead are raised in the 2nd resurrection, is this reasonable to consider, that the Spirit of the dragon (AntiChrist), given to the 1st beast and the 2nd beast and subsequently to all that dwell on the earth (at that time who accept the mark), will ALSO be given (to the dead raised) the power of the Spirit of the dragon?
My hypothesis is generated on the supposition that the dragon is attempting to equal the forces of good, by recruiting the missing 2/3rd the dragon needs for a 'fair' onslaught of power to win the battle for the kingdom of heaven.
Note: If Mankind is given time long enough; evil manifested will attempt to transcend humankind to a FORM of conscious endowment (and physical strength - whatever that means) to equal the power of the sons of God, who we now are.
I hope my question is stated clearly?
Response #14:
Good to hear from you as always – hope you are doing well too!
I'm a little foggy on the question. After the millennium, there is a revolt of living human beings led by the devil who is released in order to foment it (Rev.20:7-10). However, the only people to have been resurrected at that time are the Church, that is, the Body of Christ which consists of all believers from Adam and Eve to the last person saved in the Tribulation. After this revolt is crushed, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire (and his demon legions with him). Following that, the millennial believers are resurrected, then the unsaved dead from all periods of history are raised to a resurrection of judgment and face the Great White Throne (the last judgment), after which they too are cast into the lake of fire. This is all to be found in part 6 of Coming Tribulation (at the link), and also 2B of Bible Basics: Eschatology (link).
As to "spirit of the dragon", I'm also unclear about this. The beast (antichrist) and his false prophet are not true human beings (rather the are nephilim), and as such they will be cast into the lake of fire at the second advent (without the benefit of any last judgment). The people of the world who worship the beast and take his mark are not possessed by any spirit; they are allowed to reject the truth to a degree not now possible (in the manner of the Pharaoh of the Exodus in Ex.14:1ff; see the link); it's called "strong delusion" or, better, "the empowerment of error" (2Thes.2:8-12; see the link).
Apologies in advance if this doesn't get to all aspects of the questions raised in your email. Do feel free to write me back about any of the above.
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #15:
Thank you, Bob, for responding so quickly with your answers. I read your response and now I have to read thoroughly what you have suggested. Here is the 'rub' in my thinking, until then - (forgive me, if I appear to be walking in circles? who's on 1st?)
My theology needs work? Is the Day of the Lord, day of wrath, rapture, twinkling of an eye, the dead rise all simultaneous?
First, I have to get on the same page, as you. when does the Lord appear for believers to be with Him?
1) When do the dead in Christ rise 1st (and we who are alive together with them meet the Lord in the air?
a) Is this before or after the millennium? 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
b) And when is the 2nd resurrection?
2) Does the Mark of the Beast transform unbelieving Mankind (i.e., whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) into Nephilim or Nephilim hybrids?
Rev 13:4
example: Transhumanism www.2045.com
or like Nimrod ‘who began to be’ a mighty hunter. - Genesis 10:8 (i.e., giants or Nephilim)
Per Bob: After the millennium, there is a revolt of living human beings led by the devil who is released in order to foment it
1) ok, so after the millennium, is the devil now seen by all living human beings? Ezekiel 28:16-18
2) And to foment it (the revolt) does 'future present spirit science' play a part in preparing evil to fight?
(i.e. transhumanism)
a) Is the devil the dragon? Revelation 12:7
b) Are the living human beings, whose name’s are not in the BofL NOW transhumanistic humans?
(the goal of the transhumanistic movement is: consciousness not confined to human flesh)
c) Also, all the unbelieving dead from the time of Adam until the near future, who rise in the 2nd resurrection
d) The people of the world who worship the beast and take his mark are not possessed by any spirit? Are they led by the spirit of unbelief? (I need to read your 'strong delusion' position)
3) Does the dragon which gave power unto the beast (and by or thru the beast) give his power to those who take the Mark?
4) The power of the ‘spirit of the dragon’, is to my understanding, the power of the dragon to transform living human beings into Nephilim creatures or hybrid’s, by the Mark? not just to buy or sell?
5) Does the Mark of the Beast have anything to do with DNA or Consciousness transformation? Nephilim, etc.
Bob, I guess my train of thought is how non-believing living human beings will or can become transformed into nephilim or whatever stage the 'human condition' will yield thru science (i.e. the power/spirit of the dragon)?
If at all, considering the transhumanistic movement? Seeking ultimately, to engage Christ and (we who now are the sons of God alongside) the unfallen angelic heavenly host.
My head is spinning........
Response #15:
You're very welcome. I'm happy to answer your questions and will below – but I think all of these thinks are addressed one way or another in the Coming Tribulation series (it is a big series, but I highly recommend it) and in a more abbreviated form in BB 2B: Eschatology (see those links and also the most recent posting: Satan, Antichrist, the False Prophet and the Mark of the Beast).
a) The Bible, especially the Old Testament, often views "the end" in a composite way – analogous to how "happily ever after" may involve multiple things (such as marriage, honeymoon, first apartment, first house, many children, lives of work, retirement, etc.). The Day of the Lord (please see the link for the detailed treatment of this term) is a good example of this inasmuch as the Lord's "day" is the entire end, whose preliminaries include the Tribulation, commences formally at the second advent, but extends from there into eternity. Similarly each biblical use of the "day" of the Lord is referring to the same "end" but may be focused on one part or another that "day" (e.g., day "of wrath" being either the second advent or the last judgment). All these and related terms refer to the time when God will take on an active and visible control of the events on earth until the end of time (see previous link for much more). The "twinkling of an eye" of 1st Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) is a reference to the resurrection which takes place at the second advent; this is also often called "the rapture", although most evangelicals mistakenly believe (for completely non-biblical reasons) that it will occur before the Tribulation. As for the resurrection of the living itself, it occurs in three phases as Paul explains in 1st Corinthians 15:23-24: "first Christ" (33 A.D.), "then those who are His at His coming" (the Church at the second advent), "then the end" (the millennial believers at the end of history); the resurrection unto judgment of unbelievers also occurs at the end of history and they are then judged at the last judgment, the Great White Throne judgment (Matt.25:1ff.); after which the heavens and earth are destroyed, and then remade.
b) The Lord appears at the end of the Tribulation. His "sign" (of the cross) will appear in the sky (Matt.24:20), visible to the whole world, and then the resurrection of the Church will begin, with the dead in Christ rising first, then we who are still alive will rise with them and be with our Lord forevermore (1Thes.4:14-17).
1) See a and b above; a) 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 happens at the second advent; b) if by "the second resurrection" you mean what is described in Matthew 25:1ff., this occurs at the end of the Millennium following the Gog-Magog rebellion; it is the last event of "history" with the millennial believers being raised unto life and all the unbelieving dead of all time being raised for judgment thereafter (Rev.20:11-15).
2) No; human beings are human beings. They don't transform. Nimrod developed a following no doubt with the devil's help in order to launch the Tower of Babel plot; that is what the word "became" means in Genesis 10:8 (see the link). In the history of the world there have been nephilim, hybrids of humans and angels (demons); but this mostly happened before the great flood (and occasioned the great flood); the only examples we know of thereafter are antichrist and his false prophet – and also most likely the ten kings of Revelation. There is no indication in scripture that the devil is allowed to appear to the world to instigate the Gog-Magog rebellion at the end of the Millennium. The whole episode does prove, however, that people who do not want any part of God are making that decision not on the basis of trauma or deprivation (the Millennium will in many ways be better than the garden of Eden – only people will have sin natures and free will); just as soon as they are given the opportunity to do so, most people will rebel against God.
I don't know what "future present spirit science" is, but it's not in scripture; people of that day will only need a small amount of coaxing to want to throw off the Messiah's "yoke" (Ps.2:1ff.). The devil is "the dragon", but that is symbolism (as in the case of Christ described as a Lamb). Everyone's name is in the book of life at the start, because Christ has died for all and made salvation a possibility for everyone; the name is blotted out when a person rejects Christ on earth or dies without accepting Him (link).
As I say, I don't know anything about any "transhumanistic movement", but there is no possibility of a human being ever becoming anything else, not even for a moment, not even with satanic help (even if it happens in the movies or is speculated about by evolutionists); the only important question is where said human being is going to spend eternity. I don't see a question under the penultimate 'c' in #2.
Finally, it's an interesting question as to how many of the followers of the beast will be demon possessed; we know that there is demon possession now, and we can expect with the divine restraints removed as explained in 2nd Thessalonians chapter two that there will be more of it in the Tribulation, but I don't see anything in scripture to lead me to believe that it will be a general rule; also, this would be an after-effect not a cause. Everyone who takes the mark will do so out of their own free will, even if there is coercion. The empowerment of error does not change free will nor does it lead it beyond measure; in the manner of the Pharaoh of the Exodus (last email link), this empowerment allows people to do what they really want to do without the sorts of checks from conscience and fear we have at present – in order for things during the Tribulation to progress at a much more rapid rate.
3) No. The devil only cedes power to antichrist who is his surrogate.
4) Do you have any biblical reference for the "spirit of the dragon" (I don't know of one)? There is no transformation in any case.
5) Not at all. This is a common misconception, namely, that the mark will have something to do with DNA or implants or whatever (see the link).
There's no transformation going on. People are inherently bent on evil enough without being transformed. The only transformation human beings can undergo is that of the new birth – from death to life – which leads (or should) to being truly changed on the inside by means of the truth:
(1) Therefore I entreat you by God's mercy, brothers, to dedicate your bodies as a living sacrifice, well-pleasing to God – [this is] your "priestly-service" spiritually performed. (2) Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by this renewal of your thinking, so that you may discern what God's will for you is, namely what it is good, well-pleasing, and correct [for you to do].
Romans 12:1-2 (cf. Rom.2:17-18)
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #16:
Thanks, Bob. I will read everything.
In reference to "spirit of the dragon", there is no verse for my terminology. By deduction, I came to this end, 1) God breathed the heaven and the host of heaven, into existence. 2) Lucifer become Satan and transgressed against the Lord. 3) By doing so, his heart was darkened or changed, thus the "spirit of the dragon". 4) It is my reference or interpretation of Evil's transgression or manifested power to rise up. (i.e. the dragon gave power like God is Sprit and God's messengers are spirits = Lucifer become Satan or the dragon with 'spirit power'). Make any sense?
Response #16:
OK, I see how you got it, but I don't see this in Revelation. The false prophet does "quicken" the image of the beast with magical (demonic) powers (Rev.13:15), but that's different from what we are talking about here.
Question #17:
Were Antichrist and the False Prophet blotted out of the Book of Life before they were born, or were they never recorded to begin with?
Response #17:
Antichrist is not genuinely human, being a nephilim, and we know from Hebrews 2:16 that "it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants" (and nephilim are more angel than human since they lack human spirits even though they appear more human than angelic). Likely the false prophet is as well (as I have opined before at the link: "Eschatology Issues VIII"; response #26). As such, they would not be given consideration at the cross anymore than the fallen angels.
Question #18:
"Those who sanctify and purify themselves for the gardens following the lead of the one [characterized] by violence, eating the flesh of swine, and of whatever is an abomination, and of rats will be swept away together (i.e., at the Second Advent), says the Lord."
(Isaiah 66:17)
To what extent will "nature worship" be a component of Antichrist's new religion?
Response #18:
I have speculated that it will play a part; but from what the Bible has to say about the matter, the religion of antichrist will have something for everyone (except for followers of Christ, of course), and try to be all things to all people, whether a person's tastes run to the ascetic or the libertine. The number six hundred and sixty six as it occurs in the Greek of Revelation 13:18 is actually feminine, meaning "the 666 [ways]" – all roads lead to the beast's "salvation" . . . except for one (note that the number is an infinite cipher which is in each digit one short of the number of perfection). The only thing the universal religion of antichrist will not tolerate is the truth – a fact that will lead directly to the Great Persecution. See the link in CT 4: "The Number of the Beast"
Here are some other links on this:
The Persuasiveness of antichrist's religion
Characteristics of the false religion
In our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #19:
Hello again Dr. Luginbill,
You just jogged my memory, for I went back to the study of "Christology - The study of Jesus Christ", and you clarified the conception of Jesus there. Thanks so much for your help. There is so much excellent Biblical information in your studies, that it is somewhat difficult to remember it all.
I am currently reviewing your study on Tribulation Part 3B - Antichrist and his kingdom. Each time I begin one of your studies, I have the thought, that the more I study, the less I seem to know. But I believe that it is worth the effort and I truly appreciate the tremendous time you have placed in preparing all these studies.
I have been reading a book "The final Roman Emperor, The Islamic Antichrist, and the Vatican's last crusade. Have you heard of this author Thomas Horn, & Chris Putnam and if so, how much credence can we place in them.
Thanks always,
Response #19:
You are most welcome, my friend. Thanks so much for all your encouraging words.
As to your question, I have not heard of this book or author, but the disturbingly wrong conclusion evident even from its title is one which is ubiquitous within evangelicaldom these days. Antichrist will arise from Babylon and will gain control of revived Rome . . . and will then make war on the leader of the "south" (read North Africa, Middle East and central Asia), defeating him in two campaigns and thereby regaining the three provinces/areas (three crowns / horns) of historical Rome which are not part of his initial alliance. Given the present geopolitical situation, it seems impossible to view things any other way than that the beast will be an opponent of Islam rather than a supporter or leader of it. Indeed, anti-Christ will style himself as Christ – that is what his name means, substitute-Christ (who is really opponent-of-Christ) – and will deceive many, even many Christians, into believing that he is the Messiah. That being the case, I can think of no more spiritually dangerous theory than one which suggests that the beast's Muslim opponent will be antichrist. For that will only lead those who believe such lies to be inclined to accept antichrist's claim of being Christ – since, according to this theory and to the beast's propaganda, "the other one" is "antichrist"). This explains no doubt why the evil one is pushing that false interpretation, viz., to accelerate the rush to support the beast as soon as the Tribulation commences under the false assumption that doing so is "opposing antichrist" in leading a western crusade against the Islamic south.
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #20:
Hello again!
I am studying through the summary of end times, BB 2B, that you have provided and it is actually quite amazing to me to consider how much time has passed since I first heard of your teachings back in 2008. To think that 8 plus years have passed since I first began reading your exegesis and study of the scriptures in regards to eschatology is particularly meaningful to me. I think this is because we are a mere 10 years away from the beginning of the tribulation. And I know how fast the last 8 years have gone, so I can only anticipate the next 10 years will be just as rapid. This is also cause for a good hard look at my level of preparation. While I have gained broad strokes of understanding while reading your studies, I know I am very far from being able to recall this material as though it were my own, which is where I want to ideally be when the time comes that I no longer have access to the studies, or when the time comes that the events are happening in the present. This is all in addition to my closeness with God and my general faith in Him. Simply put, I am feeling the pressure, and this is good.
So this leads me to ask questions and thoroughly review your content, as much as I am able, and now have a question regarding the antichrist's rise to power in Babylon. Per the scriptures you have used and according to your assessments the antichrist will seize control of Babylon at the onset of the tribulation. The event is foretold in scripture.
My first question is this: Do you see any reason to believe that this event could precede the official start of the tribulation?
A rise to power in Babylon would make international waves, I assume, but is still a smaller thing in comparison to the co-opting of multiple nation states. I say this because I know that the man can not be revealed until the Holy Spirit removes His protection, but I don't know if that means he is literally unknown to all persons before that moment. Meaning, a seizure of Babylon would not necessarily contradict the scriptures meaning in regards to his revealing. Or maybe it would, haha.
My second question is based on the assumption that he will not seize power in Babylon until after the commencement of the tribulation:
Is it reasonable to think that the antichrist will be prominent within Babylon before he seizes control of Babylon?
I think you may see where I am going with this question. I wonder if wise Christians will see things unfolding prior to the tribulation's official start that point to the rising influence of the antichrist? For those of us in Babylon (and this is based on the premise of the US being Babylon) I wonder if over the next 10 years we will actually see this person arise to power, certainly not seizure of the whole country level of power, but a position that possesses influence and power nonetheless.
Well thank you for your response, and of course, thank you for the studies. God bless, and let me know if you need clarification on any of my questions. Thank you!
Response #20:
It's very good to hear from you, my friend. I hope that just as you are clearly prospering spiritually, everything else is going well for you and yours as well.
As to your questions about a prior career and a prior prominence for the beast, I certainly wouldn't rule it out. Scripture does in my view clearly place the actual seizure of power in Babylon within the time of the Tribulation, but that does not mean that antichrist won't be in power in some way before taking absolute and dictatorial control. As far as the beast's public profile, again, scripture merely says that he will be revealed only when the Tribulation begins (2Thes.2:3). That doesn't mean that believers who are well versed in what the scripture has to say about these matters won't be able to make an educated guess about who he might be before the fact. Perhaps the likelihood will be very obvious before the fact – perhaps not.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to imagine that many of the situations and prior conditions necessary for the rise of the beast along with all of the other predicted events of the Tribulation may already be forming and may be even more obvious the closer we get to "the time". But I also do always like to point out that one of the features of the Tribulation – and one of the salient characteristics of the beast – will be rapidity (of events and actions respectively). So things are going to happen at a historically unprecedented break-neck pace during the Tribulation (even more so than the changes we saw in world history in the six year period between 1939 and 1945). And that means that even if nothing of what we know will be necessary seems to have fallen into place in the summer of 2026, that does not mean that everything won't still happen just as scripture says it will (it most certainly will). So while there is perhaps some value in speculating about these things – if only to motivate ourselves to become as personally spiritually prepared as we can before the fact – it can be a trap to get too caught up in such practices. I am no prophet (I only know what I can read in scripture), but if the experiences of my life have taught me anything about this it is that things are likely to turn out in many if not most ways very differently from our expectations. Therefore, the best thing we can do is just what you are doing, namely, keep growing in the truth in every respect, learning and believing everything the Bible has to say about everything, applying that truth in our lives and helping others to do likewise. In other words, the best preparation for the Tribulation is spiritual growth – just as it is the best preparation for everything else in life as well.
Thanks much for your kind words, my friend!
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #21:
Hello,
In Matthew 24:5 Jesus states that many will come in my name saying I am the Messiah. Does Jesus mean that other persons will claim to be Jesus or does he mean other false Christian leaders will state that Jesus is the Messiah but will spread false teachings in spite of that claim. In other words they only affirm Jesus as the Messiah in order to deceive their followers?
Thank you for considering my question
V/S
Response #21:
Good to hear from you again.
Matthew 24:5 is very explicit in the Greek. What these people will say is "I am the Christ". While in Mark 13:6 and in Luke 21:8 they say "I am [He]", that is some respects is even more emphatic since the formula as we know from our Lord's employment of it is a claim of deity (cf. Jn.8:58). So the prior wording "many will come in my Name" means here not "pretending to support Me" but "actually claiming to be Me". The prime example of this is the beast, anti-Christ, whose title means not only "opposing Christ" but also "[attempting to] substitute for Christ".
All this is very important for all believers on the cusp of the Tribulation to understand, especially in light of the fact that so many believers today don't think they'll have to go through the Tribulation at all, and many of these soon-to-be-surprised individuals are also laboring under the misapprehension that the beast will be Muslim. The devil is no doubt counting on that, since part of antichrist's strategy will be to win over weak and ignorant Christians by claiming to be the Messiah who opposes the Islamic antichrist. Thus many will fall for his deception because of their lack of preparation and ignorance of the scriptures.
All that said, there certainly are plenty of false teachers now, more and more day by day (a clear sign of the times), and there will be even more during the Tribulation (following antichrist) who are and will do exactly as you suggest, namely, pretend to be working for the Lord while really working for the devil:
The Spirit explicitly says that in the end times certain men (i.e., false teachers) will rebel from the faith, giving their allegiance [instead] to deceitful spirits and demonic doctrines. With their own consciences seared away and speaking with the hypocrisy of men [who peddle] lies, they will [instruct their victims] to refrain from marriage, and to keep away from certain foods . . .
1st Timothy 4:1-3aSo be aware of this, that in the last days there will be difficult times. For [in those times] there will be men (i.e., false teachers; cf. chap.2) concerned only for themselves, devoted to money, egotistic, arrogant, blasphemous, not concerned for their parents, ungrateful, irreverent, implacable, slanderers, uninhibited, savage, despising the good, betrayers, impetuous, megalomaniacal, devotees of pleasure rather than lovers of God, possessing an [outward] appearance of godliness, but [in reality] having rejected its [true] power. From such men turn away.
2nd Timothy 3:1-5Children, it is [now] the final hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many "antichrists" have arisen – that is how we know it is the last hour.
1st John 2:18
Yours in our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #22:
Thank you very much for answering my question. I never considered it before reading a book suggesting Jesus was talking about moderate mainline churches claiming to come in his name but really being false teachers.
Response #22:
You're very welcome.
One trend I notice in "Christian literature" today is the tendency to mine the Bible for quotations that back up one's point. Even if one's point is valid and biblical – and completely so – this is exactly the opposite of the way Bible study should work. We should study the Bible, find out what it means (through reading personally but also through accessing a good teaching ministry), and go from there. Doing it "backwards" often means misinterpreting scripture and sometimes in a catastrophic way.
Feel free to write any time.
In our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #23:
Hi Bob,
Here's another reason to believe that, if Antichrist's platform itself isn't, at least the homeland must be right-wing: Babylon is described as the trading capital of the world. Now I don't know about you, but left-wing governments aren't exactly renown for economic activity. Think Pinochet, not Castro, as the model of totalitarian rule.
Response #23:
As I've said many times before, we'll know soon enough. The main thing is for believers to realize that they won't be "raptured away" so as not to have to deal with it, and then not to believe anyone who claims to be Christ, regardless of miracles and historically unprecedented military and political success, not even if said person appears to rise from the dead.
But it would be a mistake to assume ahead of time that antichrist will be left or right – since if he's the opposite one might find oneself inadvertently in his camp (at least for those who don't have the good sense to stay completely out of politics). My own best supposition is that the beast will be neither and both at the same time – all things to all people in a unique way that wins over almost all (except those who are walking closely with Jesus Christ).
Question #24:
Hi Bob,
"He will be succeeded by a contemptible person [i.e. the Antichrist] who has not been given the honor of royalty. He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed. After coming to an agreement with him, he will act deceitfully, and with only a few people he will rise to power."
(Dan. 11:21-23)
Who is "a prince of a covenant" who will be destroyed?
Sincerely,
Response #24:
Here's my translation of the passage:
(21) And there will arise in his place a [man of] contempt upon whom they will not bestow the honor of the kingship (i.e., he will not come to power in a legal, conventional way). Rather, he will come [to power] through seductive [methods], and will take control of his kingdom (i.e., mystery Babylon) by means of duplicity. (22) Now it is from him that the flood waters (i.e., armies: Dan.9:26; 11:40; cf. Is.8:7-8; 28:15-22; Nah.1:8; Rev.12:15) will pour forth and be shattered (i.e., at Armageddon), for he is even "the prince of the covenant" (i.e., the author of the pseudo-Messianic peace treaty with Israel: Dan.9:27). (23) After men have leagued themselves to him, he will set his conspiracy in motion and will grow [in power] and become [very] strong, even though his faction is small.
Daniel 11:21-23
So as you can see the "prince of the covenant" is the leader who will make a covenant with Israel for seven years – but break it "in the middle" of its tenure and oppress Israel after defeating the southern alliance in his second campaign against the south. That is when the beast (he is the prince) will take his seat in the newly rebuilt temple in Jerusalem after killing Moses and Elijah, releasing the Great Persecution, the archetypical event of the Great Tribulation. He will be destroyed by being thrown alive into the lake of fire along with his false prophet when our Lord returns at Armageddon.
In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.
Question #25:
Professor, when the Lord removes the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit will it still abide in His believers?
Response #25:
Absolutely He will! Believers are "sealed" (2Cor.1:22; Eph.1:13; 4:30) and will never be "unsealed" as long as we remain in this life. There is nothing in scripture to even suggest it. The restraining ministry of the Spirit is not dependent upon believers. It is a ministry apart. He will still be active in the world, but the present ministry which is keeping the Tribulation and antichrist at bay is what will be removed and replaced with a special "empowerment of evil" which will accelerate the evil trends we see at work even today and make possible the rapid degeneration of the world once the seven years commence. Please see the links:
Here's hoping and more importantly praying that 2017 will be a very blessed and happy year for you and your family and for us all!
Your friend in Jesus Christ our Savior,
Bob L.
Question #26:
Will the Antichrist come from the left or the right? Or a combination of both? Here is what I can discern from the Bible.
Verses favoring "from the Left":
(1) "They forbid people to marry" (1 Timothy 4:3a) [Opposes the traditional family]
(2) "order them to abstain from certain foods," (1 Timothy 4:3b) [likes hippie veganism]
(3) "he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches" (Daniel 11:24) [Socialist economics?]
(Or maybe I am just a cynic affected by the Reagan revolution, the religious right and the collapse of communism like everybody else.)
(4) "its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. " (Daniel 2:33) [Pro-diversity and multiculturalism]
(Or maybe he's just creaing social chaos to use to his own advantage, without any respect for differing races or cultures. Antichrist may be a virtulent "white nationalist" for all we know)
Verses favoring "from the Right":
(1) "They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God." (John 16:2) [Pro-religion and against "godless secularism"]
(2) "I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest." (Revelation 6:2) [Extremely militant]
(3) "With a large army he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South." (Daniel 11:25) [Extreme Islamophobe]
(4) "I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal." (Ezekiel 39:1) [Possibly white nationalist]
Here God appears to be calling Antichrist "the emperor of white people," as Meshek and Tubal are Japhetic nations, which are in today's nomenclature known as "white."
(5) "by your wisdom and your understanding you have made wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries." (Ezekiel 28:4) [extreme corporate/wealthy abuse?]
The homeland of Antichrist is known to be extremely wealthy and has made a living of being a merchant's paradise, suggesting possibly an extreme right-wing position on economics.
Final analysis: Will probably take some of the more libertarian aspects of the left, but otherwise will be very right-wing. Adolf Hitler is a very good model here, as he somehow managed to institute an extremely authoritarian right-wing government while nonetheless instituting some "pet causes," such as vegetarianism, green energy, and even labeling his own party as "socialist" in a move to persuade left-leaning people to join. Hitler was also not as economically to the right as some other fascist dictators, such as Pinochet or Suharto, or even Thatcher, as this graph of ideology shows.
Response #26:
It doesn't really affect what I'm going to say here, but I have interpreted many of these verses differently (happy to discuss individual cases). The important thing to note is that from what I have been able to discern from scripture antichrist will be unique in that he and in particular his religion will offer something for everyone and be in many ways all things to all people – except genuine believers who are truly following Christ and the truth.
It has often been said that on the extreme fringes right and left come together; there is some truth in that at least (the differences between Stalin and Hitler were mostly only theoretical). In terms of theological far left and far right "Christians" who are more interested in politics than in truly walking with Jesus, please note that both extremes claim to follow Jesus and both extremes claim Jesus and His "teaching" as their own (they merely have it wrong in both cases, using scripture selectively to further their own agendas). So it should not be surprising that antichrist, who will claim to be Christ, may coopt both extremes. Indeed, it seems that he will; and thus it would not be at all beyond possibility that his movement and religion (one and the same) may begin on both fringes and swiftly collapse the middle into unanimous acceptance of him – except for "those who [truly] know their God" (Dan.11:32).
So for me the "left/right" thing is not important. I think people have a hard time visualizing before the fact the incredible psychological power that this intoxicating mass movement will exert (especially with the removal of Holy Spirit restraint: cf. 2Thes.2:6-12), as well as the persuasiveness of a "unique individual" working incredible miracles and claiming to be Christ in a very persuasive way (to all but those who really know Jesus Christ).
We can't really figure all this out before the fact, but rest assured that anyone who has as much Bible study under his/her belt as you do will quickly realize who antichrist is, just as soon as he is revealed to the world (2Thes.2:3; 2:6; 2:8).
Yours in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Bob L.
Question #27:
Does the "cast out of your tomb" in Isaiah 14:19 refer to the pseudo resurrection of the beast?
Response #27:
This passage in Isaiah 14 is speaking mainly of the demise of antichrist. "Your land" is eschatological Babylon which the beast will order destroyed in the waning days of the Tribulation.
It refers to lack of proper burial – and both the beast and his false prophet will be cast unceremoniously into the lake of fire at Tribulation's end (Rev.19:20).
Question #28:
"For false Christ*s* and false prophets will arise and will perform great
miracles (lit., "signs") and wonders [sufficient] to deceive even the
elect, if [that were] possible. Look [(as I am telling you now)]! I have
told you ahead of time."
(Mat. 24:24-25)
The word "Christ" is plural, meaning that Jesus has more than the Antichrist in mind. What do you make of this?
Response #28:
This has to do with the fact that there will be all manner of falsehood and deceivers in the run up to the Tribulation and going into it. After all, the beast will be fully "revealed" to the world only at some point in the Tribulation (2Thes.2:3), undeniably so when he takes his seat in the temple proclaiming himself to be God (2Thes.2:4); but we can ascertain from the evidence that there will be a long initial period in the first half of the seven years when many Christians are swayed to his cause and even come to believe that he is the Christ. Before that, the fact that there are other [anti]/false individuals who claim to be Christ will give the actual beast cover. Indeed, I have suggested elsewhere that the actual beast will claim that the Mahdi is "antichrist" and that this will result in many coming to antichrist's banner in his crusade against the Muslim "south".
In Jesus the only true Messiah, our dear Lord and Savior,
Bob L.