Ministry and Preparation for Ministry XXI

Question #1: 

Bob,

Like I said before I need to move on from this work of fleshly ministry to the work the Lord wants me to actually do.

Recently I have been stung. __ is not interested in getting better or healing or improving in any way, just wants attention. __ is not interested in fellowshipping over the Word and just wants to talk about __ secular career, to lean on me when it suits and turn on me when it doesn't.

I realise now that they are being used by the enemy to waste my time and try to wear me down. I have really given them more time than I should've done with no spiritual benefit for them or myself so I am now moving on. Of course I won't be rude or cut them off but I see this is going nowhere fast and each are becoming quite belligerent and so I really must move on.

It has been a lesson for me, albeit again a painful one just like the ones I have had with the Unitarians etc. Like then, I did not trust the Lord to point me in the right direction with ministry and impatiently made decisions without praying on it. I did exactly the same with pursuing pointless and dangerous ministries in the past and also dangerous fellowship. In every case (false study ministry, false fellowship, false acting ministry) I have followed my nose and my heart instead of the Holy Spirit. Each time I have fallen into muddy ditches or briar patches and it has been painful trying to get out again. This is all my fault and I know this.

I will have to dust myself down and carry on but really heeding that small voice in faith. I mustn't be so impatient and careening all over the place from one painful lesson to the next.
I HAVE to put the Lord first no matter what. No matter how angry, demanding or impatient anyone else gets.

I do realise that even when my ministry is finally up and running that I will have to contend with time wasters, the belligerent, the abusive and the stiff necked, even if they maintain that they are believers! I guess despite my terrible mistakes, I do now have training on dealing with incredibly difficult and obstinate people and I have learned when and where to exercise Godly boundaries accordingly. I am very glad to have these graciously given to me from the Lord but I regret the way I went about it to learn these lessons (bitter experience instead of wise counsel).

You know it is hard for me to set boundaries with difficult people but even with my people pleasing tendencies I can see when a dead horse is being flogged and that all I will be doing is wasting more and more of my valuable time which could be spent wisely with those who do need it and who will benefit! Amen!

Please pray that the Lord lifts me out of this self inflicted ditch and the emotional bruising will heal soon so I can fly on again.

In Him,

Response #1: 

I do think you are right about all this. However, I don't think you should be down on yourself as if everything you've done has been pointless or in vain. First, everything you've done has been from pure motives in trying to help others for the sake of Jesus Christ. Second, everything you've suffered as a result has had the purpose of refining your faith and clarifying your spiritual perspective – and that was no doubt necessary in order to get to the point of effective ministry without being upended by this sort of thing in the future. After all, it's not as if others you minister to will be perfect. We are all flawed and your ministry is designed to help those who have been deceived pull out of that mind-set. So you have a right to rejoice in the Lord for all He's brought you through and for how He's been preparing you for the next step.

I'm keeping you in prayer for that next step. We learn about these things by doing them. It's not as if Ichthys or my life in getting to the point of doing this ministry was a straight line – far from it. But we who truly love the Lord persevere . . . and eventually get to where He wants us to go.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #2: 

Dear Teacher,

[omitted]

Also, how is __ and how is her family? Has she had some reprieve in all this time?

How are you yourself, Sir? Did your house improvement turn out as you liked?

I just started a YouTube channel. I really feel like it's too soon to talk about it because I really want to see this one go somewhere before I announce it. Still, it shouldn't do any harm for you to take a look and maybe nudge me in the right direction and definitely pray for it. I've really struggled with maintaining any ministry project probably because I end up feeling like I'm trying to recreate Ichthys and very unsuccessfully too. I am still wondering if I won't just end up reading Bible Basics to anyone who happens by the channel when I get to the Systematic Theology part. In the end, I have decided that that is a good enough thing to do too, but it would be nice if I actually could add some value to what you have so generously given me. If not, at least, I shouldn't reduce the quality when I'm passing it on to others.

I am trying a new routine. [omitted] I could use your prayers for that.

We are praying for you here.

Your student in Jesus,

Response #2: 

Thanks for the update!

Their son died last month (alcohol) and they are still grieving, but on the other hand he had been a horrible load on them for the last ten years at least. And with his passing the granddaughters are closer to them than ever (prayers for the reconciliation with their other son appreciated).

We're pretty much done with the repairs although there are some little things left to do. I finally got started in earnest on my research yesterday. Hoping to have this article ready to send out by the end of the month [update: maybe Christmas].

In terms of your own ministry, I can tell you that everyone has a different way of saying things and explaining things. I'm very glad that you get a lot out of Basics, but teaching the "basics" of the Bible yourself in whatever way the Spirit leads you to do so will no doubt suit whomever you're led to teach it to better than reading Ichthys. I call it what I call it because it started as a Bible study introduction to doctrines in Irvine and I got most of my initial material from Col. Thieme's "Basics" series (which was on tape and a lot shorter, maybe 30-40 hours run time?). The Lord has a ministry for us all.

Keeping you in my daily prayers, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #3: 

Hi Bob,

[omitted] It is a curious feeling, being alone in the crowd. As I've mentioned, I'm plugged into a couple local Bible studies... as in people know me and I'm friendly with them. But I still always feel separate. I can never be truly honest with them, and I'm just not interested in many of the things other people are. You know, the usual thing in Laodicea.

I've had both groups over to the house now (one of the milestones in my plan), which means the next step is inviting people from the groups to the Saturday Bible study. But before that, I want to get the videos from the last few weeks up. As I think I've mentioned, we've started going through BB1: Theology in the last couple months. In terms of things to start with, it's a decent one for inviting "outsiders" to the Bible study, since it's not exactly as if the Essence of God and the Trinity have the controversy factor of, say, the Genesis Gap or Eschatological Chronology.

What happens next will sort of depend upon whether there is any local interest or not. I honestly have almost no clue whether when I share the past weeks in the study (in the group chats of these local groups) and open my house to local folks who want to participate (i.e., in addition to the other meetings of the groups, rather than trying to completely replace them) what the response will look like. I won't be changing our format or what we do, at least not in a major way. So will any of the people be interested? That's very much in the Lord's hands. I would, of course, be overjoyed if many people were interested. I would still be overjoyed even if it was just a few, if they were actually interested. And if it is not many or even no one at all... well, then I will know that I did my best, and did things in a responsible way here.

The challenge will be what happens after the first several weeks, once I have a better idea of how things pan out. For example, do I keep going to the other meetings of these groups? Go every other week or even more irregularly than that? Should I shift my time into trying to make more progress on my online content? Should I try to get involved in online Christian communities (forums, Facebooks groups, subreddits, and so on), since at least there I can speak my mind more freely than I can in an association with a local fellowship that has well-defined teaching authority already? (And these online platforms might "get the message out" more broadly anyhow)? Basically, what should my time distribution look like?

I have been cognizant all this time that every minute I spend on the in-person effort is a minute I am not sinking into online content, since life is zero-sum and all that. So if the in-person efforts really turn out not to bear much fruit at all... I really think I will probably have to cut them, so I can allocate the time I have been sinking there into other areas. As I've mentioned before, at least then I know I will have tried, and will be able to turn to the other things fully convinced in my mind that it is the right decision.

So that's about where things are at present. The "critical period" will happen soon, wherein we will see if all the investment I've put in here will turn into something, or be unsuccessful on account of disinterest. I find it somewhat amusing how uncertain I am as to what the response will be. I've had people from the groups say they appreciate my input into the discussions these groups have, but I don't know if that will actually carry over into enthusiasm for events where I am teaching outright rather than merely participating.

[omitted]

Well, at any rate, that's some things "from my side." I haven't gotten an update out on my ministry site in months, and I'm working on that now. Having some issues with making some of the video editing work how I want (and things like that -- won't bore you with the details), but I'd appreciate prayers for getting this batch of content released, and then the "make or break" time period in the next few weeks here with the in-person efforts.

Your friend in Christ,

Response #3: 

I'm praying for the face-to-face effort. Do let me know how it works out. It does strike me that you live in a smallish metropolitan area, and, given how spread out Ichthys readers are, I do wonder how much "ore" there is to mine there.

[omitted]

Keep up the good work for the Lord, my friend! I'm keeping you in my prayers. Thanks so much for yours as well!

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #4:  

Hi Bob,

I'd like to ask for prayer in a few areas here. Got quite a list just now, and would appreciate the prayer support as I go through some stuff:

1) Our friend's ministry: I'm helping prep all his content and such for launching a teaching website of his own. I have been greatly encouraged by all of his teaching that I have read, and am excited to be a part of it. I'd known for a long time that he'd been hard at work, but now that I'm seeing it in the process of helping him get things ready, it's humbling, and I'm very grateful for it. I'm excited about being able to share what he's doing as much as I can, even if that doesn't go very far given that my own network is small at this point.

If you could keep both of us in your prayers, I've committed myself to helping (and am prioritizing it)... but man, he wrote more than I thought he had! It's a good thing, but it will be a process to make sure we get everything ready for him to launch, for both me and him.

2) My work: I'm moving into a new role at my job, now becoming what amounts to a second/junior project manager for our whole team of ~18 people. Previously, I had just been helping oversee my specific subteam of 5 people. It's not really going to be a promotion on paper (partly to keep some of the politics out of the situation -- given that I've been "just another team member" to most of my coworkers for the last 2 years, me shifting into management will take some time to seem OK), but it basically is in practice.

I'm thankful that my superiors thought this was a good idea, and I'm also thankful I'll be able to help our primary PM full-time, as, in my opinion, she's needed the help for a long time now. I'm pretty excited about the work overall too, as it's more the sort of thing I've been wanting to do for a while anyway, and I find it much more interesting.

But it is a change, and with that always comes some uncertainty.

3) Things on the in-person front: Our friend and I have both tried some things around us, in the hopes of finding something, anything that we might be able to work with in a real sense. Of finding people who might be actually interested in the truth. It's been somewhat disappointing, even though we'd steeled ourselves in preparation for that very thing. We aren't going to carelessly throw good time at bad causes out of misplaced optimism, after all, but it is still sobering to see lack of interest up close and personal. We haven't figured out exactly what the right path will be in the long-term, but if you could keep us in your prayers on wisdom in figuring it out, I'd appreciate it. In particular, the wisdom to know if and when to throw in the towel permanently, and decide that it is simply impossible to expect any real local interaction at all. It is not something we felt comfortable giving up on completely without at least trying a bit, but on the other hand, we want to be responsible with the time we have been given too, and not get too starry eyed about making local friends so we aren't so alone if it means distraction from what is truly important spiritually.

Both of us have felt the isolation for years now, and while having each other helps, it's not the same as a full community. None of these struggles will go away if we give up here, and so we must always trust the Lord. But it's still hard, especially as the prayers have dragged across the years. Patience is a hard thing, is it not?

On a more random note, I did my taxes today (a refund this time -- hooray). I also had a long multi-hour conversation with our friend about homeschooling her granddaughter, which was lovely.

Thanks for your prayers.

In Him,

Response #4: 

Congrats on the promotion (I think)! Don't know if this will mean more time invested in your day job, but it will probably take more out of you during the day. That will be a challenge. Also, it's the rare individual who can transition to being on a par with someone into being their subordinate and still do a good job for the person. There may be some challenges ahead there. Just remember: you work for the Lord first and foremost. Also, it's not good management to just DYI when it's someone else' job. Hopefully, since this is a military ethos, you'll be able to get that sort of thing across if need be.

I certainly anticipated the comm problem when you set up the forum. It's great to talk things over with your buds when you are all in the same system and preparing; but when you are out on your own doing your own ministries, everyone needs to give everyone else some space. Perhaps just good old normal socializing with those you care for should be the new normal (that is the way things developed between me and my seminary friends).

On all the other matters, I'm very happy to hear of the progress and will be praying for the other areas where things are not progressing as quickly as one might have hoped.

Thanks for your prayers for me as well, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #5: 

Re: work

Re: the job taking more out of me, I think it's sort of a mixed bag. While it is true I have a bit more responsibility now, I think I find the work much more interesting overall. And by personality, I hate being bored and uninterested in what I'm doing. And (oddly enough, given I majored in computer science at university), I've come to decide I am much more interested in organizing work and doing design work than actually doing the coding myself. I can just delegate that now, and I don't have to drag myself through procrastination and boredom any more. I find that always being "on" at work -- engaged and putting in my part the full eight hours -- actually, somewhat paradoxically, makes it easier for me to be productive outside of work too. If I was battling procrastination all day at the office, it's hard to switch straight into work mode on ministry stuff when I get home. (It tends to make me procrastinate there too, for whatever reason). But now I can go from being in the groove at work right into the same at home. I was always like this in college too. I was terrible with stuff that bored me or honestly didn't demand much from me, but the more I had to be on my game and even pushed a bit, the better I did across the board in life generally.

Maybe that sounds rife with rationalization, but I really do think it applies pretty strongly in my case. I've always done better under a bit of pressure. I should also say that the beauty of working for the government is that even though I'm now on the management side of things more, it really is still just 40 hours a week. I can still walk away and leave work at work, because that's just the culture of working for the government.

All this to say, I am pretty happy with this development overall. I'm going to probably be traveling for work in a couple weeks, which will be new and exciting in its own way.

[omitted]

You are in my prayers too. I think the crazy weather was a bit south of you this week, but several states really got hammered with thunderstorms and tornadoes. Was to the west of me, but I have been praying for those folks.

Your friend in Christ,

Response #5: 

I actually do know what you mean. When I was in the Corp, I had this job one time where I had very little to do. Had I been a gung-ho believer at that time (this was just before I got my wake-up call from the Lord), probably I would have done a better job pro-actively finding things that could have been done even though I wasn't being told to do them. As it was, many's the day I was willing the clock to hit 16:30. But when I got my platoon, time always flew, especially on operations (forgetting to eat, etc.).

Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with how you approach things. Just because it's not precisely the way someone else might do it, doesn't mean it's worse or better or right or wrong. This is just who you are. As believers, we reform things that are sinful or "dicey", but we don't seek to change our personalities. That is what they do in Laodicean churches where it's all about Pharisaical appearances.

You put up with me and my ticks – or what you perceive to be ticks (thank you!); I endeavor to do the same with you and your idiosyncrasies – or what I perceive to be such. That is what being fellow believers is all about.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #6: 

Hi Bob,

Invite sent.

Thus far, __ has not done anything with the invite I sent. There have been a few over the years who never accepted the invites, but sometimes I don't know if it could be a spam filter thing or something like that, so maybe it's worth asking about?

Prayer request on my side:

So, I've mentioned prayers for in person stuff before. I've been semi-involved with a couple local groups of people in my age range (twenties), trying to walk that line between "new wine in old skins" and giving up before I even try.

So far, I've been able to work with what is there -- not as perfectly as I would like, of course, but it also hasn't been as great a waste of time as I had feared it might be. With a bit of common-sense reading of the room, I've been able to more or less speak freely without feeling like I'm running afoul of the purpose of the groups or compromising my own beliefs.

At any rate, we are nearing the point where I was planning to launch a Bible study at the house formally. I think some people from these groups might be legitimately interested, and it could be a great opportunity.

Recently, one of these two church groups I'm involved in formally asked if anyone wanted to lead/host a Bible study for the group. Apparently the guy in charge of the small groups at the church decided that they wanted to start this new thing for the college age group, and wanted the young adult group to kick something off too. I thought this was an excellent chance, and was sort of all ready to take the reigns and get everything set up, but now... well, another individual is involved too. We'll call her __ for now.

My vision for how thinks would work involved, among other things:

• Having things hosted at my house, with the projector setup and seating for everyone

• Having a shared meal before the Bible study, to break bread together

• Making it explicitly cross-church = involving all of my contacts from both groups, rather than just one group

• Being able to go through some of the deeper points in Romans (we're doing a study on it), rather than being bound to some cookie-cutter "teaching materials" worksheet or something

• Having sole control, in the sense that decisions could be made by me rather than by committee

Long story short, a lot of these things now seem uncertain, at best. __ talked to the church point of contact sans my involvement, and apparently they have this plan/vision already set up, and the first meeting is going to be at her house involving XYZ plans. Re: eating dinner together and having it be cross-church, those were dismissed with an unconcerned "we're just starting, let's see where things go".

My concern is that I will not see eye to eye with __ (who I don't actually know well, since she hasn't been coming to many of the group meetings. Which is why I'm not entirely sure why church leadership has endowed her with the power to make all these decisions for the group). Supposedly "we can adapt as we see how things work out", but given my lack of inclusion in the conversation that apparently just happened (despite having messaged questions before any announcements were made cementing the initial plan -- i.e., decisions were made without discussion), I'm not entirely sure what to expect. I was also pushing for involvement from all the people in the group when we make these decisions, since I think many people might actually see things as I do. I'd already spoken with a couple interested people about crossing the two local church groups from time to time, for example.

So in any case, my initial enthusiasm for what seemed like a good opportunity has been dimmed substantially. If I strike out on my own and start a different Bible study than the one the church is now trying to organize for this specific group, that probably wouldn't turn out well due to perceived "competition". I could possibly do my part in however this one develops and launch a separate Bible study for the other church group I'm a part of (which presently doesn't have any sort of separate weekly Bible study or designs on starting one -- I think me volunteering would be quite favorably received on that end), but then I'd be involved in the normal weekly meetings of these two groups, the two (separate) proposed new Bible studies for these groups, and our weekly Bible study over Zoom with Ichthys folks. (Which is about to kick into gear again formally, as people requested we start back up something more systematic. We'll be starting BB1: Theology come this Saturday). That seems perhaps not the right call either.

On the one hand, having a Bible study I am helping lead formally sanctioned/supported by local church leadership eases one of my concerns in being locally involved. On the other hand, dealing with the strings attached there (like this) may prove to scuttle the idea entirely, although that is yet to be seen. I could just be misinterpreting the vibes based on what's happened so far, and I certainly hope that's all it is.

So, aside from prayers that everything would actually work out productively despite potential for the contrary, I'd also just ask for prayers of wisdom and discernment. I know you haven't had much optimism on local involvement right from the beginning, and I certainly won't delude myself into forcing something if it's obviously not going to be productive. The thing that is unfortunate is that over the last couple months I had really thought everything was developing such that things could smoothly click into place, and now instead there is all.... this.

Your friend in Jesus,

Response #6: 

Thanks for the heads-up regarding the invites. I'll keep that in mind . . . but I do tell folks that if they haven't heard from you in a week or so to let me know, so maybe __ changed__ mind.

On the Bible study, I think this will end up being a real education for you. I do wish you well with it and I will keep you in my prayers. Please don't go into this with a thin skin, because it is more than likely that when you attempt to inject any measure of truth, you will run into some pretty severe hostility. I have seen that before many times. Since the Spirit seems to be leading you in this direction, however, perhaps there is a person or two you are meant to reach through this.

I admire your courage and perseverance. Please do keep me in the loop as to what happens.

Keeping you in my prayers for this and all other matters. Thanks so much for yours as well!

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #7: 

Hi Bob,

Roger on the "thin skin" bit. Honestly, whenever I get what I feel to be real spiritual flak from people who don't want the truth, it never much gets to me, just makes me a bit sad, as it's so unnecessary. If only people would open their hearts.

The thing that confused me about the present set of circumstances is that it isn't even particularly spiritual, as it seems to me. Like, we're in the process of organizing and setting up a Bible study, right? So why don't we get the opinions of, I dunno, the people in the group who will actually be involved? It just seems like straight common sense to me. Same deal with the leadership of the group. Why is this person who most of the group members don't know going to be involved in running things? Wouldn't it make sense for it to be the ones everyone knows (I am one such person, having been participating for several months now) organizing it?

It just leaves me scratching my head. I'll have a better idea what comes next after this coming Sunday, I think, which is when this supposed first meeting will be. I'm hoping it will be quickly clear to me whether I can work with this or not. I know from past circumstances that I don't share leadership well unless I am very much on the same page as the other people involved. In practice, this usually means if I can't have my way, I just don't even bother trying to make it work, and doubly so with Bible teaching since I'm even more black and white there than I am with other things.

We'll see. I do appreciate the prayers.

In Him,

Response #7: 

___ just emailed me that she did get this latest email, so whatever you're doing differently is working.

In terms of "why should it matter?", well of course it shouldn't. Of course, instead of personal pride and the need to be in charge and control things, we should all humbly desire the spiritual growth and progress of as many of our brothers and sisters as possible and with all speed and effectiveness. But if most Christians had that attitude, there would be no need for Ichthys since the truth would be in the process of being taught in most churches everywhere as "job #1".

But this is Laodicea. So I'm surprised when people DO respond . . . since it is by far the least likely result of sharing the truth nowadays. Without a genuine dedication to the truth, an anti-Laodicean posture, then of course even lukewarm Christians will have a proclivity to revert to all the bad tendencies of the secular world. So the same sort of politics one sees playing out in every other organization will usually take hold in Christian organizations as well – where there is no really desire to learn the truth, only lukewarmeness.

As I said, this is likely to be an education for you in more ways than one. But I am keeping it in prayer for you for good to come of it.

Thanks for keeping me in the loop on this.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #8: 

Hi Bob,

I thought I should send you an update..

[omitted] but I have the medication now to help but I have to wait to start it at the right time. Please pray for me over this as it does carry health risks. Maybe because my health has been deteriorating, I have not felt as spiritually strong lately.

I was trying to give the fruits of my labour in ministry to the women around me who are being abused. There are many women that fall into that category at the moment. The frustrating thing is that they moan and complain but when I give them concrete advice, they always do a U-turn and take back everything they say. An example of this is ___. She has confided that her boyfriend is constantly borrowing money from her and ploughing through her inheritance whilst fencing off his own inheritance. I have told her how wrong this is (I am not the only person to have said) but then she backpedals over it.

I have had this response from people over and over again. It really wears one down. At times it has made me both frustrated and angry. As I am not always feeling well either, these things have got the better of me and I have been short tempered and exasperated.

I thought it better to stay quiet for a bit and get on with my own study, ministry reading and development and working on my business plan. I am now thinking that there will be people out there who will appreciate and accept the ministry I am labouring over. I don't want to be bitter other the ones who don't, most of them are very near and dear to me. It is probably as you say, they think they 'know' me and so they think what I have to offer them is next door to useless. I don't want to feel so impatient with them but I can't wait around forever for them to respond. I have to get on with working in the vineyard for those who will partake of the fruit. Maybe once my ministry is up and running properly, I will have so much more confidence in it and will have that emotional clarity and distance (and spiritual maturity) not to take it all so personally all the time.

I definitely have to change tack now as it is affecting me spiritually and I don't want to start heading in the wrong direction or let my heart harden towards people.

I hope this message finds you well my friend.

Keeping you in my prayers.

In Jesus,

Response #8: 

I'm distressed to hear that about ___ as well. I have seen this before too. Somehow it seems that abusers manage to achieve in exploiting others what no one else could ever do (cf. 2Cor.11:20-21). Getting away with preying upon others, getting away with physically harming them, in short, getting away with murder . . . sometimes literally. I think it boils down to the ability to lie to people AND to get those people to lie to themselves and to believe both sets of lies. I'm keeping her in my prayers – and you too of course, my friend. I'm glad to hear that you are getting some medical help. I understand that this is potentially a long process so waiting it out if you are in misery and could get some help doesn't seem the wisest course. Keeping this on my prayer list.

There is something to be said to the impersonal factor in any sort of ministry being a plus. Professionalism. A person might say something to his/her therapist they'd never say to a friend or family member, e.g. My old pastor used to stress that he never counseled people one-on-one precisely because of the lack of objectivity involved in that when the person is your pastor. Hear "it" Sunday morning with the whole congregation and you can be more objective about "it" and repress those "he's not talking about me specifically, is he?!" But that's harder to do when you are hearing "it" from him directly.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #9: 

Dear Teacher

Have you been well?

I think I should just ask you this:

If in the end, I can't see any real difference that I could make in teaching from what you have done, what do you think I should do? Do you think that the Lord will definitely give me something to do different from what you have done?

I even tried to structure my teaching to follow a different pattern that I thought would be more logical or would fit more closely with the progression of questions that a seeking believer such as I was would have, and I failed. I saw that the pattern you followed was perfect. I am still thinking about whether I want to put Peripateology before Ecclesiology, but the order I thought was better for everything else eventually proved inferior in my own mind to what you did.

I am willing to believe that as I get more mature, I will probably find better ways to do what you have done, but what has happened until now is a confirmation that you did it great already. I don't find any disagreement of note with what you have done, and I can't think how to improve upon it.

I still have some trouble mediating it because I haven't really gotten comfortable with teaching out of some material. I still prefer to address things in the moment so that if I were to plan a teaching whether in writing or in speaking, I tend to see no point in basically reading what you wrote or copying it. But when I'm asked questions on the fly, I feel like I really get into it and find insights that I didn't previously have. I suspect that this is still a matter of immaturity to some extent?

So, what have you done in this situation if you have had anything similar? I promise, I'm perfectly fine with simply mediating your work (I frequently recall Paul telling Timothy to pass on what he had learned from him to others, so I see no reason to quarrel with simply passing on what I have learned from you). I love it for its thoroughness and incredible simplicity. I sometimes feel a bit relieved that I don't have to do it: It's so huge. But it's just hard to mediate. When I have tried to do it on Zoom with___, I've ended up mostly reading it to them, and when I've gone off-script, it still sounded like I was reading it.

I'm looking to try Reddit right now since I seem to be enjoying answering questions in some subreddits there and some censorship has led to my creating a subreddit to try to put some maybe testers out there for anyone looking for the truth on there. Still not sure what to do though. I really just feel wedded to this need to begin with systematic theology before going on to anything else, so all the pieces I want to write on different subjects just don't hold my interest all that much. I just think that if I provide a systematic discussion of the whole realm of Bible truth, then there would be a foundation or framework or a sort of mental glue to which to stick all the other pieces that cause people some trouble, like politics, sanctification in time, etc.

Your student in Jesus

Response #9: 

I do understand your frustration. I've probably told the story more than once about the time when I am my seminary buddies went to see Col. Thieme at a conference in Southern California. We were in our first year of seminary and the Col. was doing excerpts from his David series, as I recall. He was in top form and it was wonderful. Two hour sessions three days in a row. I remember driving back down to Buena Park where I had a one room apt. in "the oldest house in town" (the original farm house from when it was all one big orange grove), thinking to myself that I could never, ever do what the Col. was doing, not anywhere close. I seriously considered taking up plumbing. As things turned out, the world lost a truly awful plumber, but gained, well, we'll let the Lord be the judge of what was gained, if anything.

Whatever Ichthys is and whatever good it is doing, I am very happy with doing it and very satisfied that this is what I was called to do. And whatever else can be said about it, it is "being done". I could never have managed a church and a teaching ministry in the style of Col. Thieme. Blessedly, that was not what the Lord called me to do. When I was in seminary, there was no internet, and personal computers were just coming onto the scene. I did have the notion that maybe I could provide biblical answers to questions which people "out there" might have, but I imagined this taking the form of small tracts (I never got to the "how to distribute them?" problem). But for me, the right thing turned up at just the right time and developed in just the right way . . . for me. It went differently for my four colleagues. Curt O. had a church for a time but now has Bible Academy – also on the internet but quite different in its presentation from Ichthys. Mark P. is now doing missions work in Tahiti (link), having pastored a church in Co. for many years. Bill P. did have, for a longish time, a Bible church in the manner of Berachah, the Col.'s church, and has a Bible study website (at the link). And Mark C. tried all manner of things while working as a teacher, including a website (he's retired from that now buy seeking new venues).

In terms of your "cohort", I note that ___ and ___ have website ministries but are also striving for a face to face teaching venues. Mike C. has a YouTube ministry where he speaks to the camera in informal settings. [link to other Ichthys related ministries]

If anything, opportunities for ministry, venues for ministry and approaches to ministry are greater now than they were when my father was ordained as a Presbyterian minister (back in the days when that denomination still believed in God). I could never have done what he did either, I can tell you for certain having seen it up close and personal.

And whatever it is that you end being called to do, I'm quite sure I couldn't do that either. We are all different, differently gifted, and are all called to unique ministries. Our job is to be prepared to do them when called, and then to do them faithfully all the way to the end thereafter.

I am sure that your preparation is excellent – because the Lord is preparing you. So I am also sure that the Lord will lead you into just the right thing at just the right time.

As to content of teaching, we all have the same content: the Word of God. You will make what you have learned from me and from others your own, mixing it with the things you discover on you own as well. The Bible is our touchstone which keeps us on the strait and narrow with our teaching. That is our "perfect pattern" and there is no other.

One other thing I can tell you is that the ministry itself will have a great deal to do with how you present your material and also to some degree what you emphasize. This is hard to set in stone ahead of time. You will need to be flexible . . . just like my mentor was, just like I and my cohort have been, just like your age-mates are being.

Whether it ends up on Zoom or Reddit or in some face-to-face venue, I have every confidence that once you fall into the right ministry, the format and the approach will fall into place as well. This is all about Jesus Christ. Keep Him "ever before you" on your journey and you'll end up in the right place (Ps.16:8).

Keeping you in my prayers on this, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #10: 

Thanks Bob,

I have been thinking today about this and would like to address it in point form. I wasn't feeling great the other day and so couldn't write clearly about things.

1) Obviously I want to avoid these kind of pitfalls in the future but I again am learning how to do ministry and how not to. I think the best is to take your model. Have a site and have one point of communication access (email) and have a set time of day and only answer one email at a time.
Other social media doesn't work. Facebook is too general, Reddit is a free for all and WhatsApp is just endless chatter. I realise ministry needs to be done with everything in good order. It is not easy to assert boundaries on these other formats so I would like to copy your model.

2) When a person sets up a ministry it should be done with the confidence and assurance that what is being shared is both truthful and edifying. There is also the understanding that the person in ministry has reached a certain level of maturity and a level of understanding and responsibility. This responsibility has to be taken seriously. I have realised that I have to have the attitude of 'I believe that what I am sharing is Spirit led and can be backed by Scripture.' It will also have the attitude of 'this is what I have been led to share. If you don't like it, there are other ministries'.

3) This recent experience (and previous ones) have shown me that people will come along and say 'you don't know what you are talking about'. 'Let ME show you what really is the truth'. You have experienced this yourself. Someone can come along and say 'You are wrong. Here is a video/essay/course that proves you wrong'. There may be numerous reasons people do this. It may be a power play or jealousy or being used by the enemy. In the past I may have experienced this doubt because I am female but I also experience this when people remember who I was before being saved. They just can't believe that I could put together a cohesive ministry (that God could empower such a thing)

I don't know how the fact that I am a female will work. Will that mean that men cannot look at my site or only women can look at it? Not sure how this part will work. As for the other point, maybe people I know will never accept my ministry or my maturity in faith. Maybe they will need to hear it from someone else.

4) Not sure how to leave things with __. I think she may be annoyed that I have only recently come to faith and as she has been a believer a lot longer than me, she may feel she should be 'schooling' me. She has ignored your ministry and instead tried to foist other teachings on me. The last thing she mentioned was an 'evangelism course' called DASEL which stands for 'Developing a Supernatural Evangelistic Lifestyle'. I never heard of this but alarm bells were already going off when she said it was a new way of evangelising and that they taught that 'Jesus never preached hell'. I looked at their Website and they talk a lot about 'God's Dream' which also set off alarm bells as I knew this is a New Age reference.

https://www.evangelismreimagined.org/

https://youtu.be/VrgYIK6KYiA?si=IfG405duq_q8rgdV

On one hand I feel I should warn her that this is a false ministry but then I realised that she would probably be at my throat if I did. She just can't accept that now I actually know the difference between false teaching and true, that I have grown up enough to spot the difference. She is personally offended by the idea that I now know more than her because I have been studying and wanting to know the truth rather than have my ears tickled. Her pride cannot accept that I know more truth than she does, so she will just reject what I say and probably get angry. Then again if I don't warn her would that mean I have blood on my hands?

The problem with her is that she is just listening to endless false teaching. Even if I warned her of this one, there will be another and another false ministry one after the other. Until she gets serious about her faith and spiritual growth she will be bouncing from one ear tickler to the next. It is so exasperating. The more I point this out to her, the more strained things are becoming with her.

It may be that given her past involvement with the occult, she still has a taste for 'woo woo'. She told me she used to have psychic powers. I would imagine that the seduction of having a position of dubious spiritual authority would be hard to give up. It would be hard to give that up to then be a baby Christian and seeking someone else's authority. The temptation would be there to be your own authority and be your own arbiter of what the truth is. It is a bit like flirting with rebellion and the Bible equates spiritual rebellion with witchcraft anyway. I have noticed that her particular draw is towards signs and wonders but doesn't like the hard graft of studying the Bible.

I have realised that she is a perfect example of what passes for Laodicea.

In Jesus,

Response #10: 

1) That sounds reasonable to me! It's a good deal of work getting started, but if I can do it (not exactly being a computer whiz), I'm sure you can too. I could put you in touch with a couple of the fellows referenced at Ichthys who have done similar things (and who know more about the HTML aspects than I ever will). Of course, if you make use of one of these already-in-place systems like FB or Reddit or whatever, then that will mostly not be necessary (in that case there are other issues to deal with).

2) It is true that it's good to have a very clear idea of what the ministry is, whom it will serve, how it will do so, what it will look like. Spending time on the front end getting these things solid in your mind will save a lot of backtracking on the back side.

3) You do have to have a thick skin. You can't let nay-sayers get you down. You can't get into tiffs with people who will never be convinced. My policy is to bear with people . . . to a point. But when the line is crossed, when they make it clear they are not listening and have no intention of ever listening, to let it go. That point is sometimes immediately reached, sometimes only after a great while, sometimes in between. As to gender, you are not setting this ministry up to be teaching men as their pastor, so I don't see a problem if men benefit from it anonymously. I would avoid getting into certain of the conversations above with them though for precisely the reasons you adduce. But that will come later (and possibly you can address that when resolving #2).

4) This is one you have to decide. I think you have analyzed the problems spot on. It's hard to be completely professional and unemotional when face to face with people you know. What to do about it is your call. Whenever it HAS gotten personal, especially "face to face", it's always harder to part. That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing. I have confidence in you to figure it out aright.

Keeping you in prayer on this and for all other things, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #11: 

Hi Mr. Luginbill,

How are you? I'm doing well! Hope the same for you.

I know I've asked about work a lot, and how to use my artistic talents, etc. And when you say God is guiding me, I do see that slowly happening - and how it's good that God gives us choice with our lives as opposed to sending us a letter detailing what to do.

I guess I'm just trying to understand the proper attitude toward work. On the one hand, I know that God desires for us to work for a living and lead a quiet life. In everything we do, we should honor Jesus and work as unto Him.

On the other hand, nothing we do down here ultimately matters except how it relates to our spiritual life. We should do things with a good attitude and work hard, but nothing will last. So I'm torn between wanting to have work that is enjoyable and fulfilling - and then feeling that it doesn't matter and I should just go find a job that I can tolerate. Was Paul a tentmaker cause it paid the bills? Or since he knew how to do it? Or enjoyed it? I know happiness is not the end goal, but God blesses us and it's ok to be "happy" about those blessings right?

I watched a video last night about a lady who was super sick her whole life (she only lived to 21) and she spent her last years raising money to help families with sick children. She had an exuberant personality and her mission was to tell people that you should just go do something with your life, no matter the circumstances. But when it was over, all I could think was that, "she did it all for nothing if she didn't know God".

I'm not that sick. I have things wrong with me, but I can't say I am suffering anymore, not a lot. How am I suppose to look at God's healing? I know that God can heal anyone - yet I'm skeptical that He will (of course He heals people every day but I'm thinking, chronic or terminal illness). I don't believe in faith healing (if you just have enough faith God will heal you!) but am I viewing God in a wrong way by not actually believing that He might heal me (past a certain point - I might get better in one area but always struggle with another)?

I know my only purpose is in Jesus - so how do I manage the rest of my life without going too high or too low? Am I looking for something that's not possible in terms of fulfilling work?

Thank you for reading over the pages I sent you! I appreciate it so much!

Respectfully,

Response #11: 

In terms of work, there's nothing wrong with enjoying what you do. It is true that down here on earth, everything is "vanity! vanity!", but God does give us talents and opportunities and there's absolutely nothing wrong with exploiting them in a godly way.

A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God.
Ecclesiastes 2:24 NIV

By "godly" I mean working hard with all one's might in the full knowledge that we are doing it "as unto the Lord" as a witness for Him. And of course, we believers make decisions to put the Lord first in spiritual growth, progress and production. These decision always put us at a career disadvantage – from the world's point of view. We devote what we are led to see by the Spirit is the proper level of time and energy to work, not neglecting things that are in fact more important. Work is important – and we are right to do it well and take satisfaction in a job well done – but it is NOT the most important thing. This is part of the life balance every believer has to construct. We have a home to take care of, relationships, finances, health, work . . . and then the most important part of the balance: spiritual growth, progress and production. We are given great latitude in composing these lives of ours, and how we do it – and how we follow through with it – has a lot to do with our eternal rewards. It is folly to spend it all on "job". It is a mistake also to do a poor job and blame that on the Lord. We don't want to make a habit of working 19 hours a day and have no time to study the Bible; we also don't want to be one of those slackers who reads the Bible at work instead of putting in a good day's effort for a day's pay. We have to strike a godly balance.

On health, there are things we can do. We can exercise. We can commit to a healthy diet. We can seek medical attention for things that are beyond our control to fix. But in all this, we understand that nothing surprises God. Meaning that everything we suffer was in the plan of God from eternity past and everything happens for good reasons. Accepting that and trusting the Lord to bring things about to a good conclusion is part of spiritual growth. God can reach down and cure cancer in an instant. And we have seen Him do it. Or He can, like in Paul's case, tell us that we need to trust in His grace to get through whatever is plaguing us. Often times, we will indeed be healed, but we have to have patience and trust . . . and it may require us doing things we'd rather not (like a course of physical therapy or giving up salt or getting up half an hour early to walk every morning, e.g.).

My own personal testimony is the Lord is absolutely faithful and completely worthy of our entire trust. I don't mean to say that I'm in 100% health or that every prayer for healing was instantaneously answered. But I can say for certain that the fact that I'm even alive at all – and in what I consider very good health for my age and the things I've been through – is all about the Lord helping and rescuing and healing me . . . often in spite of "me".

So trust Him. Pray. Be patience. And be resolved to do your part – whatever the Spirit leads you to do.

Your work is very nice! I would be happy to post these at some point in some fashion. I sense this may be an incipient ministry for you (but that is something else you have to figure out on your own with growth and with the Spirit of the Lord).

Praying for your health and all other things.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #12: 

Hi Mr. Luginbill,

How was your Thanksgiving? Mine was wonderful.

Yes, I'm sorry, I do know that medicine is ok as long as I am not doing it over the top (which I don't think I am). I think it was just a good reminder to be actively trusting in the Lord for His involvement in the process.

I am still considering starting a women's Bible study - how do I tell if Jesus wants me to? I know young women who are Christians but they have questions about certain biblical topics. I know when I started digging into God's Word, everything looked up and I found out lots of exciting things, like I told you.

I haven't figured out exactly how to organize it yet. I see possible difficulties when we run into denominational beliefs that aren't supported with the Bible or are misinterpretations of Bible passages. Though I don't want to let that hinder me from doing what I am supposed to.

I don't want to go off and do my own thing if Jesus isn't asking that of me, so I guess I just want to know how and what. Do you have any thoughts or advice? Thank you!

Respectfully,

Response #12: 

Glad to hear it! Ours was also very nice. Happy to hear that your health is holding up (keeping you in my prayers on that).

On the study, I think it's great that you want to minister the truth in some capacity! All effective ministry is always based on spiritual growth, so please keep that up as you are doing. As to "how to know", the more we grow, the clearer the Spirit's still, small voice becomes . . . as long as we are taking pains to listen. So I have confidence that you will be able to tell pretty quickly what is right for you to do and what is not.

It's also important to remember not to get trapped into thinking that the way others do things is the only way. Most of what goes on in Laodicean evangelicaldom is sideways at best in any case. Think about what you know would be good to do and have done and work back from that. It doesn't matter if it is different from somewhat similar operations going out "out there" at present. In fact, that would probably be a good sign.

I'll add this to the list.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #13: 

That was very interesting and enlightening. I like the way you answered this (an enjoyable read), although if I may ask for clarity on a certain point (forgive me if there is a lot here in this email):

1. You mentioned you were doubtful that these "accursed" individuals referred to backsliding marginal believers. I take this to mean you believe that those who were spreading a false gospel (those who Paul says, "Let them be accursed" were most likely unbelievers even if both camps could be in view? Did I understand this correctly?

I had a few other questions unrelated to the above. Also, I only use numbers because it helps me to collect my thoughts (that's just what I'm most comfortable with because it's what works best for me) and to make it easier for you not to miss anything since there is a lot here (well, sort of- maybe not compared to other emails from different correspondents). That's just how I do it (I say this only in case it bothers you).

2. Ephesians 4:11 mentions both apostles and evangelists. My understanding was that there were two forms of the gift of apostleship- the type unique only to the twelve and the kind possessed by evangelists as those sent out to proclaim the gospel (we still have them today). However, if this is the case, why does Ephesians 4:11 mention both? When it mentions the gift of apostleship, how could it refer to evangelists if the gift of evangelism is already in the list? If the gift of apostleship referred to in our passage only refers to the type unique to the twelve, how could that be so since the passage seems to be giving a broader application as a gift many different believers could possess in those days? I think you get what I'm asking.

3. On a different note, it was my impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that you believed the gifts of knowledge, faith, and wisdom mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:8-9 were discontinued (unless I'm misremembering?). Is it possible that these gifts are still around today but the ways in which they operate (their forms) have been altered? In other words, do we possibly have different versions of these gifts today (the change being that those gifted are no longer receiving direct revelation from the Holy Spirit since we have the completed Canon of Scripture)? Does it kind of depend on what we mean by these gifts?

4. In 1 Corinthians 14:21, how does the phrase “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord," relate to the rest of the context? Is it because the primary purpose of tongues was for evangelism? Why does Paul reference this passage (Isaiah 28:11-12)?

5. Finally, back in 2015, I heard a church leader say that Matthew 11:3 shows that it is "ok to doubt." Would this statement technically be true since we assume it isn't necessarily sinful? Or does it depend on what we mean by it being "ok?"

Your friend in Christ,

Thanks!

Response #13: 

1. Right.

2. I understand the apostles here to be Apostles with a capital "A"; i.e., not apostles in the sense of missionaries. This (missions) was a "job" / ministry area, not a gift. It is true that to be an effective missionary having the gift of evangelism would be helpful, maybe even necessary.

3. Re: "you believed the gifts of knowledge, faith, and wisdom mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:8-9 were discontinued": correct. As to "being around today", I have also affirmed that 1) the catalogs of "gifts" we are given in scripture are not meant to be taken as the only ways in which the Spirit gifts individuals, and also that the "cocktail" of gifts and the variations within the gifts mentioned are as different as every believer is different. The point of teaching us about gifts is to inspire us to grow, pass tests, and then minister to the Body. As we set ourselves to do so, the Spirit will use the combination of gifts we have been given in that pursuit. So it's really coming into the right ministry that is the most important thing – as opposed to trying to figure out the precise spiritual gifts we may have and how those should be described. The one exception is pastor-teacher, because a man has to have confidence he has that gift in order to prepare to use it, and without said preparation the gift itself cannot properly function – and preparation takes time. So no doubt certain people are naturally more discerning than others, e.g. We could worry about whether or not they have "the gift of discerning spirits" but how would that help? If they are actually doing this to the benefit of the Church, that is great and that is the point, whether or not they "know" that they have "that particular gift". But if they are not doing what they could be doing because they are overly concerned with identifying gifts, that defeats the whole purpose; if they over-focus on that one gift, even if they may have it, they might skew the way they look at ministry . . . and not come into the exact one the Lord has for them (which will also make use of other talents they may have).  The series on Ministry and Preparation for Ministry XX (link is to the latest posting) has more on all this as does BB 5: Pneumatology, under "Spiritual Gifts".

4. Yes, I think that's it. Well, it's a perfect reference: foreign languages not being understood is directly akin to people speaking in tongues where there is no one present to receive the message – which is apparently what the Corinthians who were abusing the gift were doing.

5. A perfect example of what is wrong with the church-visible. We are saved by believing the truth and we grow by believing the truth. The entire Christian life is about building up our faith.

Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
John 20:27-29

Of course, we have to believe THE TRUTH. We have to trust THE LORD. If we are in a place where we are doubting the teaching for good reason, we need to find a different place.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #14:  

Hey Dr. Luginbill,

Thanks! Agreed and understood.

On the doubting. Even if it isn't ok (are there times when it is?) does that mean it's necessarily sinful? In Thomas's case? Another example would be Peter walking on the sea of Galilee. And then perhaps having doubts at first when trying to figure out a particular truth but just wrestling with the idea. I don't really remember what they meant by "it's ok to doubt" ,(John the Baptist was just one example) because it's a bit vague (perhaps too general of a question). I guess it's just a matter of parsing when it is or isn't a sin?

Response #14: 

I wouldn't worry about whether or not it's technically a sin (although see Rom.14:23; Jas.1:6-8; 4:17). Doubt – when we are talking about doubting the Word or doubting our Lord's ability to protect/help/save us – is clearly the exact wrong application. So we should, as our Lord said, "be believing, not unbelieving".

All these examples are of a piece. Thomas should have believed without seeing the Lord – just as we should. Peter should not have doubted the Lord's ability to keep him on top of the water, just because of what he saw and heard – and we should trust the Lord beyond anything WE see or hear . . . or feel. John the baptist was "the greatest" . . . but everyone actually IN "the kingdom" is greater, meaning that you can be great on this battlefield, but until you've been brought home in victory, there is always the potential for disaster. So keep on believing. That was essentially our Lord's message to him.

Don't let momentary doubt undermine the edifice of faith in the truth you've built up through the Spirit. Good words and advice for us all, especially given the times we're living in . . . and the times we are likely to be soon entering into.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #15: 

My pleasure, Bob! And I'm praying about the situation you mentioned too.

I've been thinking today about 1 Peter 3:15.

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

This verse is for all Christians not only for those who have an apologetics ministry. So for those of us who aren't gifted or qualified in apologetics this means sharing the gospel when an opportunity arises - when someone genuinely asks. I read your lesson again in 1 Peter #35 about the context of the verse, "maintaining a calm and cheerful Christian witness when the chips are down is the thing that hypothetical unbelievers here find remarkable".

I was reading a discussion today about apologetics and one person wrote something I found interesting and reminded me of what you wrote. " I was raised Christian and when I first believed I set out to prove my belief to others, it was only recently that I put my focus on living my faith. I've had way more positive reactions to my belief now than I did back when I could make a good argument".

This all comes with spiritual maturity as well. Do you think it would be useful for all Christians to have some basic knowledge of apologetics because we are to defend the faith too? Are we to use apologetics as well as to preach the gospel? I'm not forgetting the importance of the Spirit's influence too. We do our part and He is 100% faithful in doing His part.

Thanks again for your prayers, Bob. I'm still going through a really rough ride at the moment. The perfect time to "maintain a calm and cheerful Christian witness". Not always easy but that's the aim!

In Jesus

Response #15: 

Thanks for those prayers! They were answered.

On apologetics, it strikes me that what the Bible tells us to do here, namely, to "give the reason for the hope that you have . . . with gentleness and respect" is significantly different from apologetics as it is understood and practiced in evangelical circles. When I hear that word, I think of argumentation and usually also confrontation, "standing up for the Lord in the public square". I think of Stephen's speech in Acts chapter seven – but of course he was put into that situation rather than having sought it out. This is disputation (Acts 6:9) and has come to be called apologetics. That is fine.

I do accept that the above may be where the gifting and calling of some reside. But it's not what 1st Peter 3:15 is saying. That is more along the lines of what you are noticing and supporting. It may seem to be a fine distinction, but it's very obvious for anyone willing to see it. If someone asks me if I am a Christian I am happy to claim it and tell them why if they are interested. If some atheist is holding forth on the quad, I don't see it as my duty to jump up on the soapbox next to him and explain what he is wrong – and still less to set up that soapbox myself without that challenge and harangue passers-by.

All Christians – the spiritually mature ones, at any rate – should be able to explain to someone who expresses interest what they believe and why they believe it and how wonderful a future awaits. Sadly, that is rare in Laodicea. Sadly too, very many are more interested in winning arguments than in actually winning souls to Christ. The latter is more often done, as you notice, by being the sort of person whose character commands attention and respect, much more so that shouting loudly at inappropriate times to people who are not interested.

The quiet words of the wise are more to be heeded than the shouts of a ruler of fools.
Ecclesiastes 9:17 NIV

And you are right about the "rough times" too! If we are "keeping our heads" and also continuing to demonstrate love in difficult situations, that is often not lost on those who observe it, especially if we are doing so in significant contrast to others.

Prayers for you to make it "through the rough".

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #16: 

Thanks Bob. That's really helpful and I do agree with what you wrote. I see exactly what you've described in the city that I work in. Christians standing on their soapbox haranguing passers-by. It's the kind of behaviour that would just turn unbelievers off Christianity even more and I totally get why.

I think the main reason it came to mind was because a while back some members of my family, who are unbelievers, asked me the sort of questions or put forward the sort of arguments against Christianity that apologists would tackle or supposedly answer. Things to do with science, the big bang theory, evolution etc. I'm no expert in apologetics but I can and have explained to them what I believe, why I believe it and the wonderful future that awaits us. The conversations I've had with them about my faith have always been calm. I've never tried to shove it down their throats. I always knew from the very beginning that that's definitely not the way to handle this. It's just common sense that you don't do that to people. It does more harm than good. I only speak about my faith now if they mention something about it which isn't that often. If they're not ready to listen to the truth yet then no amount of debating (which I'm rubbish at) is going to make any difference. I question whether that sort of thing ever makes a difference. Does it make them think any differently? Does it plant any seeds? Maybe for some if they're genuinely interested. I know the Lord can use anything. Instead of doing the apologetic thing (even with love and respect) I'll keep witnessing with my life and praying for them. I know there's far more power in that. As you said, it's not about winning arguments, I'm not interested in that, it's about winning souls to Christ. Thanks for your prayers for them too, Bob!

Great to hear about the answered prayers!

Keeping you and your family in my prayers too.

In Jesus

Response #16: 

Good to know we are on the same page! Not surprising, though.

I've been accused often of not giving apologetics its rightful place, but I don't see it that way. I'm trying to make the biblical distinction between giving a fit answer in the Spirit when the Lord puts us in such situations on the one hand, and forcing the issue where it's not really the Lord's will to do so on the other – stipulating that there are some individuals who are called more to that sort of ministry (but they also are obligated to do things the right way).

I remember reading a book that used math (maths LOL) to show how evolution was statistically impossible, demonstrating how the "evolution" of one single occurrence of the most basic amino acid would have required more "accidents" than could have happened in normal probability in all of the time this planet is postulated to have existed – let alone the exponentially larger number to produce anything resembling single cell life. Such efforts can be helpful, but our faith doesn't depend on them (and no matter how far fetched or unconvincing, materialists always have some pat answer that satisfies them if they are not willing to be saved). We trust the Lord, even if we can't personally argue effectively against scientists and mathematicians.

By faith we understand that the ages have been constructed by the Word of God, so that what we see (i.e., the material world) has not come into being from the things presently visible.
Hebrews 11:3

This is why the witness of the life is so very important. If people "know us" and realize that we are not loons, but instead are well-measured and reasonable in all of our words and deeds, then the fact that we believe can be very powerful. But just let a believer express doubts, and the game is over. And no amount of apologetic skill or training can ever replace that genuine and unshakeable faith we all ought to be projecting.

Keeping you and your health and your work and your family in my daily prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #17: 

Hello,

Bob? I had a great conversation with __ the other day. We "scheduled" an hour, but ended up talking for almost two. I still have many questions.

While I do plan to revisit and study your website, as well as talk with __ again, I don't want to overburden him...I do want to know who his teacher is — put a voice to the description (he spoke highly of you), if you will. I'll frame my request the same way as when I reached out to your aforementioned student: will you please call me when you have an hour or so to talk?

If you're too busy or simply don't want to give me a jingle-jangle, I understand. Otherwise, I can be reached at the number below and for the record, I'm a night owl. So, I'm generally awake from later in the evening until the next day, late afternoon-ish. That said, if you reply with a day and time that work for you, I'll make sure I'm coherent.

Prost,

Response #17: 

Good to make your acquaintance.

When you say "__", you have me at a disadvantage as there are a number of great "___s" that have contact with this ministry.

I don't do telephone counseling, but I do answer questions via email. Feel free to send them along. In terms of "voice", the AI voice(s) on the MP3's are a lot better than mine, LOL! Here's the link.

No worries about the title – I don't stand on ceremony. Bob is fine.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #18: 

Are you on facebook or have your own teaching on YouTube or an app so I could follow your work and study finding you easier?

Response #18: 

Good to make your acquaintance. To answer your question, Ichthys doesn't have an app or a Facebook presence. It is a large site and some find it difficult to navigate at first. Here are some links to help:

For MP3 Files

For Weekly Email postings

List of Links

FAQ #6.  Navigation:  I am having trouble finding what I need on this site.  Can you help?

Also, I am happy to answer any questions you might have about finding things.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #19: 

Thanks Bob this has really helped me.

Recently the Lord has shown me that often when we think we are helping others (usually unbelievers) that we are not really doing what we think we are doing (the Lord's work) and we are actually falling into a snare from the enemy.

I have recently tried to witness with my life to unbelievers and because I had good fruit I was encouraged to do more but then I saw the dangers with this because of their involvement with their family who are more hardened and hostile to the Lord. I then had to take a step back.

As I was encouraged by the response I had from my neighbour I was about to try to 'help' two more neighbours but I felt the Holy Spirit was warning me to hold back and wait. Some of these situations seemed 'tailor made' for me so I thought they were given to me from the Lord but I have taken a step back to look at the situation and I see the many dangers around these situations and that they may well be a snare from the enemy that will explode in my face if I were to get involved.

As I was so keen to actually live for the Lord, I was throwing myself feet first into situations where people were clearly in need but I didn't pray about it first. To be honest, none of the people who I am currently trying to help actually came to me for help, I offered to help them as they were needful. They have benefited and are appreciated my help but the Lord has shown me the dangers of their less hospitable family on the side which I have to be careful of.

Thankfully there were two situations with neighbours where I was going to offer help without their asking but I now see how entangled I would've become so I have taken a step back. The problem is that with one neighbour I offered to walk their dog (I love dogs) but I realise now how abusive and neglectful they are of it and I realise how bad their marriage is doing (they live next door and we hear the quarrels through the wall).

The good thing Bob is that I have really learned a LOT from this and I am becoming more humble and seeking the Lord's will. I was very gung ho at the beginning but it has been tempered now with wisdom. I don't want to fall into the Satanic trap of thinking I am doing God any favours of that He needs me to do anything.

I realise that when a situation presents itself that it seems like you are helping someone, it can be a snare from the enemy. A clear example of this: __ is trying to help a relative who has come away from a violent domestic situation and has PTSD. She is talking about how she needs to 'go back to church again' - she is a lapsed Catholic. To be honest Bob, this is exactly the person who would benefit from my ministry but she has been blocked by __ who thinks he can 'rescue her'. The irony is that __ has given __ and __ and __ Complex PTSD himself. He is literally the worst person to help a person with PTSD. So this is obviously not a connection forged by God.

With this situation in mind I am praying for this association to end and for her to find someone more suitable. It will not do her any good at all and it certainly isn't good __. If it is God's will for me to minister to her (as she wants to know God now) then I will be patient and wait and I make myself ready by continuing to build my ministry for publication.

The Lord has shown me through this that not all attempts at 'helping' actually helps at all and often people have the wrong reasons at heart for trying. Sadly it is often for people to feel good about themselves and give themselves the glory. I have to be careful that I don't fall into that snare myself.

I am learning to slow down now. To rely on prayer a lot more and having boundaries. I am learning to be patient and wait on the Lord and thankfully realising how I need to get my head down and keep on with my own life, study and ministry as this is the way to please the Lord and actually truly help people over the long term. Amen!

In Jesus,

Response #19: 

Thank you for this wisdom-filled email, my friend.

Yes indeed. We need to listen to the Spirit. How? That comes with growth. So job #1 is always spiritual growth, using a broad based approach and being consistent with it. One never knows which biblical principle or what scripture will turn out to be key at any given moment.

And yes, we need to pray. Prayer is amazing. What a blessing to be able to have direct access to the Father and to our Lord Jesus Christ! To be able to "fire and forget", putting each and every concern in their hands and to stop worrying about "it" entirely. We all need to pray more. We all need to do a better job of trusting the Lord to handle "it". But as we grow we do get better at this (or certainly should).

And yes, we need to recognize that people have free will. Not for nothing our Lord told us not to "cast our pearls before swine". We are not at salvation automatically capable of discerning immediately whether or not a given person is going to be receptive to the gospel or, if a believer, receptive to guidance aimed at pointing them to a good place to grow like we've grown. That takes growth too – and the wisdom to back up and back off when and if we make a mistake on this score. We don't want to be the horse that always has to be spurred on, but taking the bit in our teeth continually has its own problems too along with often painful results.

And yes, what people really need is the truth. Any and all material help should always be predicated on the idea of leading unbelievers to the gospel and believers to the correct path of spiritual growth. Otherwise, we are only contributing to someone's ability to stay put in the bad spiritual place they are already in. Nothing wrong with helping! But if we do so we always need to do so with that God-given purpose always in mind; that's the 'sine qua non' – 'non' as in "otherwise don't do it".

And yes, it is a very great trap to engage in any sort of help with this insidious and often not obvious purpose, namely: "for people to feel good about themselves". Most charity in this world is exactly that. And what "good" does it do? If a multi-billionaire wiped out poverty and disease in an entire third-world village, would any person so benefiting be any closer to salvation and spiritual growth? Absent a good plan and God-given Holy Spirit support, the whole place might be farther away rather than closer . . . since now they lack a good deal of the impetus that might make them "seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us" (Acts 17:27 NKJV; cf. Ps.105:1; Jn.5:30).

So it does my heart good to see you figuring all this out, my friend. Keep on growing. And keep that desire to please the Lord first and foremost ardently alive. He will give you fruitful avenues to pursue it by and by.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #20: 

Hi Dr L,

Please tell me if I am being crazy: I was reading some stories on reddit of people who tried to help others and got screwed over. There is the person who tried to be a stepparent and ended up being forced to pay child support to the child who was not theirs even after the divorce. And the 'friend' who claimed squatter's rights when their friend tried to help them for a while and give them a place to stay. And the person who got shot trying to help someone on the side of the road. The people who let their kids run around and when the kids hurt themselves sued the owner of the property they hurt themselves on (who did not even know the kids were there). I mean you really have to only help people in certain situations and not others (in many situations walk by and ignore someone who looks like they need help) now just to protect yourself. I mean looking at the Bible as a believer, I really wonder what the apostles and prophets who talk about helping others would say in this kind of society?

Or am I wrong/overdoing it?

Respectfully,

Response #20: 

Our Lord told us to be "shrewd as serpents" in addition to being "innocent as doves" (Matt.10:16), and that stipulation certainly applies when "helping people". All of the incidents you read about probably involve unbelievers "helping" other unbelievers. Whatever their motivation, absolutely pure or self-righteous, it isn't coming from God. Believers who help other believers who are 1) in genuine need, 2) unable to help themselves, and 3) capable of being helped without putting the helper at risk or in need, are being "true neighbors" to their brethren in Christ (Lk.10:36-37).

But if these circumstances don't apply, then I wouldn't worry about it. In fact, I wouldn't worry about it at all. There aren't any "rules" about this other than the rule of love on the one hand and spiritual common sense empowered by the Spirit on the other. So unless we are actually looking at a situation in real time, there is little point in agonizing over hypotheticals. Because one thing is absolutely sure: whatever situation we imagine or hypothesize will never ever come to pass – not precisely the way we are imagining it, anyway . . . and the details make all the difference.

To engage in a little such speculation for the sake of illustration: if a woman driving along alone at night sees a man standing by his car trying to wave her down, in my estimation she would be foolish to stop: he's not in any visible danger but he could easily pose a grave threat; on the other hand, if a man is driving along in the day time and sees a woman and her children trapped in a car which is gradually sinking into a swamp it would be a godly thing for him to stop and try to rescue them: the danger is obvious and the threat from the individuals in question apparently minimal.

We listen to the Spirit and we respond – ideally – whether the answer is "yes" or "no". Again, these things always become clearer as we grow, because the Spirit uses the truth we have believed to guide us in all circumstances, including the "help / don't help" one you're concerned about. And if we are acting out of guilt and/or with doubt, it's probably not the Spirit; whereas if we act with godly conviction, it probably is the Spirit.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #21: 

Those 3 rules seem like good guidelines (although we also seem to be told to help nonbelievers in the Good Samaritan story, although I imagine other believers come first).

On hypotheticals, I do agree you can overdo that, but I have found that some helps in situations I am unfamiliar with. Otherwise if I just walk into it without consideration I may be able to wing it or not. But the Bible does say not to rely on the flesh. I have actually been thinking about when I feel all motivated for dailies, am I relying on the flesh? Especially because I tend to like the kind of character that is very motivated and focused, but yes tends to be like that (even overconfident in their own ability).

Response #21: 

If we try to plan for situations, we will find that we never actually bump into those precise situations. So it is better to grow and to learn to listen to the Spirit.

When it comes to application of the truth, the Bible generally doesn't give us specific instructions (the Law of Moses has been replaced by the Law of the Spirit: Rom.8:2); rather it gives us guidelines so that we can know the boundaries on either side of the path so as not to go too far on either side. Within that range, we can adjust in the Spirit to try and get things "perfectly right". So if we are not being "innocent as doves" then perhaps we are being too hardhearted and uncaring; but if we are not being "wise as serpents", then perhaps we are being too gullible and too prone to being pressured to act out of guilt.

There are myriad examples of this sort of thing in scripture. So it is wise whenever we find a scripture that troubles us, that is, one that suggest to our conscience that we are not doing things the right way, to find other scriptures which talk about the opposite concern so as to make sure that we don't go off the rails in the other direction (a very common thing for believers who are not spiritually mature and who are letting their emotions dictate their actions).

Lots of things in the email responses over the years that apply here; best single place at Ichthys to find information on this subject: BB 6A: Peripateology: the Study of the Christian Walk (at the link).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

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